UK Folk Revival 2018

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 09:41 AM

Jim, I think Pseudonymous is genuinely curious about MacColl, and I see no sign here of a hate-fest.

"Perhaps somebody could suggest a MacColl song or two done without accompaniment and without regular rhythm?"

How about The Baron of Brackley?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 09:49 AM

There was a programme and it did have such a section in it, a point relevant to the discussion on this thread of female singing styles and also to the discussion of 'revivals'. For me, stating this fact is not 'showing one's ignorance'.

My understanding is that we are being told that MacColl was a significant figure in preserving English/Scottish (possibly Irish, not sure about this but he does sing in an Irish accent on one song on Spotify) traditions. I am merely asking for an example.

I am perfectly happy that nobody should regard me as an expert: it is precisely because I am not that I have delved into the works of Roud and others and engaged with the ideas that they present.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 09:51 AM

Thank you, Brian. I'll listen to that in a moment. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 09:59 AM

Now that this is another MacColl thread...

"The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face

Perhaps the most unusual reconfiguration has come from Seeger herself, who in 2012, aged 77,
recorded it alongside the electronic producer Broadcaster. MacColl’s melody was all but dispensed with,
Seeger’s voice was fed through a vocoder and the song was set against a Gary Numan-esque synth groove.
Asked what her late ex-husband would have thought of it, Seeger replied,
“Well, the Ewan of the Seventies would have thrown it in the fire.
But the Ewan of the Eighties was coming to terms with a lot of things?.?.?.
I think he would have been very interested in it.”"

hmmm.. my kind of modern folkies.. wonder if any older mudcatters would like them...???

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 10:07 AM

"and I see no sign here of a hate-fest."
Hank williams soundalike and the rest - we have to disagree Brian
None so blind

"I am perfectly happy that nobody should regard me as an expert:"
No fear of that, I can assure you especially as your total understanding of folk song period seems to be based on thee few songs you have dredged up from Spotify
The overwhelming number of MacColl's 175 ballads are unaccompanied
Peggy is a superb instrumentalist and in one of her lectures on accompaniment, her opening statement was - The first thing you ask about accompaniment is "is it necessary"
Very much in contrast with the wannabe Carthys who suffocate their songs in unnecessary. overelabourate accompaniment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 10:15 AM

'Breathtaking'. It's been a long time since anybody called me that! :)

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 10:58 AM

One of the earliest members, Like Kelly, became a leading figure on the Irish scene,"
yes and he left very early.
although his repertoire was influenced by contact with Ewan, and he had respect for him, he wanted to develop his own style, to give the impression he was a long time member is wrong.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 11:10 AM

"yes and he left very early."
Nothing to do with the Group Dick - he moved out of London
He remained a strong supporter of MacColl and his ideas all his life
Read what I said - I said he was one of the earliest members - nothing more
Don't you start
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 11:15 AM

Bloody hell Jim. Do you have anything nice to say about anybody who's alive?

Martin Carthy is one of the unavoidable stopping off points for every English guitarist-singer.

For Brian and me his version, and maybe Tony Rose's version of Thorneymoor Woods was inspirational. Okay guitars aren't your thing. You've made that plain. But for some of us they are all we think of all day, having gone to sleep thinking about them in our dreams all night.

In Brian's case, he thinks about concertinas too. But with me - its just the guitars.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 11:25 AM

I'm not sticking around. Thanks.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 12:50 PM

"Martin Carthy is one of the unavoidable stopping off points for every English guitarist-singer."
Doesn't make him a good accompanist Al -
I like Martin but that doesn't mean I like what he does

My long dead mate (30 years now) threw his home open once a week to young singers like me and ran classes where he devised ways of helping inexperienced newcomers improve their singing

He did more work on singing techniques for folk songs than any other single individual on the scene
He wrote around 300 songs and was recognised as the leading singer of his day for many decades
If you mention his name on this forum you will be inundated with open hate mail which almost immediately closes down thread after thread - making it virtually impossible to discuss all the ideas and techniques that he left behind in recorded form
I have 250 tapes of his workshops that I have no idea what I am going to do with and nearly as many interviews, lectures and radio programmes all containing examples of has pioneering work
And you complain about my crticisnf somebody's style of accomaniment in passing
Give us a ***** break Al!
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 01:32 PM

Jim - fair enough.. MacColl was a great bloke...

Now, trying to relate the admiration for him to this thread...

If he could have experienced the last 30 years of music in all it's diversity,
how adaptable or intolerant would he be...???

Might MacColl think things you don't like in modern folk, are actually quite inspiring and cool...???

How would he have accepted computer/internet music technology and the way it has opened up,
democratised and facilitated,
affordable high quality music recording, production, and distribution for the ordiany folks...???
Way beyond the horizons of any folk clubs...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 01:49 PM

Well I'm really sorry you feel like that Jim.

I've never sent you any hate mail.

I think people possibly home in on your vulnerability.

The thing you always forget about Ewan. He was a pro! He had the bravery common to every showbiz footsoldier. In fact he had it in spades. If you put your head above the parapet - particularly as fearlessly, and innovatively as Ewan did - people are going to take shots at it. Every artist knows this.

Knowing his humble origins - do you really think the assurance with which he performed and expressed himself cost him nothing? He was a toughie! And I think the slings and arrows of the Lilliputians 30 years on would have made him laugh.

Regarding your problem with library-fing or whatever the word is, all this research work. Have you approached the big museums, and universties? What of this Newcastle place that's doing a folksingers degree course - surely they'd love a resource like that. It would keep PH.D students out of mischief for years.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 02:25 PM

"Martin Carthy is one of the unavoidable stopping off points for every English guitarist-singer. For Brian and me his version, and maybe Tony Rose's version of Thorneymoor Woods was inspirational."

Yes, Al, in fact (as I may have told you) the very first song I performed in public was a Carthy-esque version of 'Thorneymoor Woods'. Jim, you're not obliged to like his guitar playing, but I can tell you he's put a lot of thought and work over many years into devising accompaniments to work with the grain of songs learned from unaccompanied source singers, rather than imposing foursquare rhythms on them.

His adaptations of Child ballads have also been very inspirational to me and many others.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 02:58 PM

"how adaptable or intolerant would he be...???"
He would probably have shoved his head in the gas oven as I feel like doing sometimes - though I do take issue with your "diversity"
Abandonment is the word which springs to mind
Might MacColl think things you don't like in modern folk,"
What's modern folk - define it for me?
MacColl would have loved the internet as it exists at present - he talked about it with anticipation when he was alive -
The first thing he and Peggy did when they suddenly became relatively wealthy when one of Ewan's love songs for Peggy hit the charts big-time was to instal a recording studio in their hoe
They produced a series of ballad albums that were the best ever produced as far as I'm concerned and a load of other masterpieces
As far as technology in general, I hope he would have treated it circumspectly as I do
We are involved in an art form that doesn't need amplification (unless you want to put it in a concert hall - I certainly don't
Instrumentation the same - used with taste, it's fine used indiscriminately it's destructive
Our tradition is based around the most intricate, versatile, democratic and the most readily available musical instrument there is - the voice
Accompaniment can enhance it sometimes but most of the time it is totally unnecessary and can be a diabolic hindrance to good singing - even (and sometimes especially) in the hands of a good musician.
I used to sing some of my 300 songs with an accompanist - when I came to leve here I thought I'd have to abandon them
Not the case - I can sow sing them all unaccompanied and make as equal a job with them as i could twenty years ago
Nowadays, too many singers accompany their instruments rather than the other way around - they ruin perfectly good singing of perfectly good songs by catering for unnecessary accompaniment
If you think anty of this technology is way above anything in a folk club we exist on different planes
The most important, and sometimes the only thing a singer needs with him/her is an attentive listening audience
If you don't understand that you don't understand folk singing
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 03:04 PM

" Jim, you're not obliged to like his guitar playing, but I can tell you he's put a lot of thought and work over many years into devising accompaniments"
I'm sure he did Brian - too much maybe
His long, intrusive instrument breaks and gis hiccoughy idiosyncratic phrasing spoil most of what he does for me
I found myself listening to his skilful guitar playing rather than the song
One of the features of instrumental accompaniment for me is that you should only notice it when it stops or it goes wrong
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 03:17 PM

Well ornamentation isn't limited to guitarists. Some unaccompanied trad singers style is very ornate.

Are we to approach folk singing like Oliver Cromwell did Lincoln Cathedral and knock the knobs off everything and the noses off the gargoyles?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 03:38 PM

" Some unaccompanied trad singers style is very ornate."
Seldom in the English tradition Al and not often in English-language Irish ones (I'm talking about the old styles of singing of course)
Storytelling doesn't need ornametation - that's what our singing tradition is about
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 03:50 PM

Pfr - I mentioned Broadcaster's work which sampled the Radio Ballads earlier in this discussion. I wonder what those in this discussion would think of what he did. I found it thrilling

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 04:23 PM

Jim, i was only stating a fact luke kelly left early, put whatever interpretation you like on that, , i also said he had respect for Ewan

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 04:36 PM

joseph taylor was hghly ornamented listen to brigg fair and from percy grainger who said thisGrainger wrote:[4]

    Mr. Joseph Taylor is in most respects the most exceptional folksinger I have yet heard. Although he is 75 years of age, his lovely tenor voice is as fresh as a young man's, while the ease and ring of the high notes, the freshness of his rhythmic attack, his clear intonation of modal intervals, and his finished execution of ornamental turns and twiddles (in which so many folk-singers abound) are typical of all that is best in the vocal art of the peasant traditional-singers of these islands.

    Though his memory for the texts of songs was not uncommonly good, his mind was a seemingly unlimited store-house of melodies, which he swiftly recalled at the merest mention of their titles. His versions were generally distinguished by the beauty of their melodic curves and by the symmetry of their construction. He relied more upon purely vocal effects than almost any folk-singer I ever heard. His dialect and his treatment of narrative points were not so exceptional, but his effortless high notes, sturdy rhythms, clean unmistakable intervals and his twiddles and ‘bleating’ ornaments (invariably executed with unfailing grace and neatness) were irresistible.
phil tanner used ornamentation listen to gower wassail or dark eyed sailor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-OLMXqV6Awww.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-OLMXqV6A"> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-OLMXqV6A

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 04:40 PM

Jim, rufford park poachers is also high;y ornamented

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 06:14 PM

Baring-Gould recalled:

'tunes have to be repeated several times to be noted with accuracy, as peasant singers are disposed to embroider them with twirls and flourishes of their own device'

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:03 PM

I'm still sorry you feel hurt on Ewan's behalf.
I feel sure he wouldn't have wanted that.
He probably got a bit of a buzz out of pissing people off, and he would smile to think of all those people still walking round with the arrows of discord that he fired, stuck firmly in their bum after all these years.

Have you asked Peggy how she sees the situation?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:14 PM

"Jim, i was only stating a fact luke kelly left early, put whatever interpretation you like on that,"
And I was only stating that he was an early member - you suggested I was being misleading
Put whatever interpretation you like on that Dick
It is a moot point whether or not Taylor ornamented - other's claimed that he had natural vibrato
Joseph Taylor sang the the traditional version of Rufford Park Poachers, so the doubt about his using decoration still applies Be
side the point anyway - the Lincolnshire singers were recorded in 1908 and ornamentation has hardly appeared since
There was a possibility that Ned Adams was using decoration on the end of the first line of Bold Princess Royal but it is hardly discernable
Harry Cox talked about 'putting in the twiddly bits', but he never managed to do so.
I did say "seldom" - I never suggested it never put in an appearance - I certainly never intended to make a definitieve point about it.
Our singers considered themselves storytellers - their texts were secondary to the tunes - that was my point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 08:22 PM

Jim - you seeem to be over-reacting and getting a bit evangelically hostile [again]
defending prophets and 'rules of folk' that most music lovers
know nothing about,
and wouldn't give a toss if they did...

You are doing a brilliant job of curating and preservation,
and know you need to make practical arrangements
so that custodianship of your collection and recorded personal memories
is donated to an archive that will value and conserve it all properly.

That will be your legacy to folk music academia and specialist musicologistss / journalists...

If in the future a minority still cares enough,
your collection might help inspire and influence new Folk Revivals,
.. perhaps in ways you do not like or approve of...
But you are at least doing your best to offer that option of informed choice to future folkies..
That is one main reason you have earned our admiration.

But it gives you no special rights now to lay down the law
to young [and not so young] creative singers and musicians
who have even the vaguest interest in trad folk...

..and certainly no excuse for frightening any away...


One of the vilest people I ever encounteed was a fundementalist evalgelical preacher [wedding in Liverpool],
even large a part of his congregation of the converted
looked uncomfortable like they thought he was too out or order...
but still he continued banging on and on about the evils of feminism and it's abomination in the eyes of god..

When you are in one of these fire and brimstone preaching moods you could even put him in the shade...

I say this frankly and honestly as someone who has much respect for you
both above and below the BS line...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 02:39 AM

And I was only stating that he was an early member - you suggested I was being misleading"
isuggested nothing of the sort, i stated a fact.
joseph taylor sang in an ornamented style, go and listen

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 02:49 AM

There is a difference between 'vibrato' in singing and 'ornamentation', though some vibrato can be so pronounced that it sounds as if the pitch of the note varies.

In Rufford Park Poachers as sung by Joseph Taylor, both vibrato and ornamentation can be heard. The vibrato occurs when he holds the same pitch of note. At other times he uses flourishes or glissando.

Ewan MacColl uses a great deal of ornamentation.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 03:49 AM

i agree about story telling. however some irish singers also used ornamentation, i heard a young irish traveller singer recently who used a lot there was a discussiin about ornamrntation on this forum, i think his name was mcCarthy, i got the impression from listening to him that ornamentation was used a lot by irish travellers, please correct me if that is wrong

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 04:33 AM

thomas macCarthy at the magpies nest, tell me jim is he siningnin in an authentic tradtional style, he is using ornamentation "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyRuPE9Hzms">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyRuPE9Hzms

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 05:45 AM

I don't think Jim ever denied Irish trad singers use ornamentation.

In fact the first time I ever heard the term ornate applied to singing was from Peggy Seeger.

Her and Ewan were following Sean Cannon who had just sung a version of Blackwaterside unaccompanied This was pre Dubs, about the time of the curry wagon.

Anyway Peggy describes Sean's singing style as very ornate.
I know I'been thinking I liked Tommy Dempsey's more straightforward version better. And Bert Jansch's (complete with folk baroque guitar) better than both of the Irish versions.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 06:22 AM

"I don't think Jim ever denied Irish trad singers use ornamentation."
Thanks Al, I'm most certainly not, nor am I denying it was ever used in England
We are more or less restricted by the fact that our knowledge of traditional singing dates back largely to the beginning of the 20th century - apart from Grainger's 1908 recordings, a working view of singing dates back to the 1950s when the BBC embarked on their mopping-up campaign to record what they regarded was the last of the traditional singers in these islands

Listening to the Grainger singers suggests that there might have been an ornamented tradition and some later recordings confirms that there might have been, but the actual evidence is thin on the ground
I know the BBC recordings inside out and I would be pushed to identify many singers singing in English who ornament extensively among the recordings we have - some in Ireland (not many in the Northern counties), and hardly any in England or Scotland (I'm referring to structural ornamentation rather than the less obvious ones ).
THat doesn't mean it was never used - when collectors reached the tradition it was all but dead and singers were remembering songs rather than performing them.

If it did exist, and I see no reasong to believe it didn't, we have to try to work how it was used.
There is a tendency of some Irish singers to 'decorate the tunes' rather than to use ornamentation to emphasise important parts of the narrative
In The Critics Group, those were the terms in which ornamentation was discussed
Both Peggy Seeger and Sandra Kerr did some excellent work on researching ornamentation and folk song styles
I constantly get thoroughly pissed off by the fact that the closed mindedness towards MacColl and everything surrounding him prevents any open discussion on the masses of detailed work put in on every aspect of folk singing and folk songs - totally unique, in my experience.

I know Thomas McCarthy and consider him a friend - I don't think he is typical of how Irish Travellers sang, not in our experience anyway
Beyond that, I'm not prepared to discuss his singing publicly - I don't do that with traditional singers, as I've said before
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 10:17 AM

ok jim ,fair enough

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 10:56 AM

It seems to me that it is perfectly possible to admire some aspects of the life and work of MacColl without necessarily admiring others. I for one accept that some people may like or dislike things about famous (and talented) people that I think and feel differently about. What does not help is when people go OTT about MacColl on either side, pro or agin. And both types happen. And some of the people on MacColl's side make him sound like an arse.

I personally do not regard any tutorials organised by MacColl and Seeger as the last word on anything, though obviously advice from accomplished professionals, which they both were, can be useful.

Among the items in Jim Carroll's legacy will be the posts he has made on Mudcat. Interesting to ponder what people may make of them.

'The Princess Royal' by Ned Adams is full or ornamentation.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 11:28 AM

"I personally do not regard any tutorials organised by MacColl and Seeger as the last word on anything,"
If anybody saifd the last word on anything, we may as well all fold up our tents and **** off home
"Interesting to ponder what people may make of them."
Interesting to ponder if anybody will bother to read them
Reagrding some of them - I hope not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 12:49 PM

Anyway trad song is in dnger in England[imo] because of coomercial pressure, lack of venues where people can listen, where it is not treated as background music, commercialisaton of folk festivals so trad songs get sidelined to fringe events or smaller eventsor get performed and altered with over arrangement or changes so that the music gets further from its roots

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 12:55 PM

Surely the altering and changing of a song is part of the folk process is it not? I know what you mean about over arranging though.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 01:06 PM

Interestingly.. trad heavy rock/metal is experiencing a similar existential crisis..
and coming to similar conclusions on the cause of problems...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9jNrPTTbSo

If any of you can be bothered having a watch,
maybe getting a wider perspective on factors which are affecting music
well beyond our little world of folk...


btw.. his dad was in Badfinger...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 03:53 PM

i did listen, thanks

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 05:49 PM

"There was a possibility that Ned Adams was using decoration on the end of the first line of Bold Princess Royal but it is hardly discernible"

I've been using that recording of Ned Adams in workshops for many years, to show that English singers were well capable of ornamentation. Apart from the turns at the end of the first line of every verse, the performance is full of the most extravagant slides.

A much better known singer, Bob Copper himself (the very man who made the recording of Adams) slipped subtle ornaments into his singing all the time. Neither example is comparable with the ornamental complexity of sean nós singing in Ireland, but they are interesting nonetheless.

Jim's point, though, is that ornamentation and storytelling don't go together, since one is likely to distract attention from the other. That's an interesting question I've thought about a lot. If, say, a guitar accompaniment detracts from the story (I don't accept it myself but people who enjoy traditional singers sometimes say this), then by the same token so should ornamentation.

But here I'm going to call in evidence one of Jim's own recordings, the magnificent 1970s performance by the traveller Bill Cassidy of 'Pretty Polly' (aka Outlandish Knight). Cassidy used all kinds of ornaments, often to my ears unconventional ones, but still succeeded in telling the tale very effectively. What think you Jim?

And how about Paddy Tunney, whose 'Lowlands of Holland' I once tried to imitate vocally for a another workshop. The first phrase alone contains at least four beautifully executed turns (it took me ages to get hold of it), but how does it bear on the storytelling? I'm not sure how I feel myself about that one.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 06:51 PM

"Jim's point, though, is that ornamentation and storytelling don't go together, since one is likely to distract attention from the other."
That's not what I said Brian - ornamentation for ornamentation's sake can do just that, but used subtly to underline important words, it can be an invaluable addition to the song
Joe Heaney was interviewed over quite a long period by Ewan and Peggy and he spoke at length about the uses of ornamentation
The same with accompaniment, though I have never been convinced that the Guitar is the best instrument
In both cases it's the "look how clever I am" approach to the song that spoils the song for me - neither songing nor instrumental playing

I have always though 'Little' Bill's singing to be superb, but I find, for various reasons, it doesn't have the emotional mileage for my taste - once you've heard it a few times, you've heard it
Sam Larner's unornamented singing, particularly 'Butter and Cheese and All' always leaves me feeling it's the first time I'm hearing it - and it's the first time Sam had sung it
I don't know if that makes sense!

"Surely the altering and changing of a song is part of the folk process is it not? "
Nope - every song that had ever been changed wulfd be a folk song using that logic
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 01:46 AM

"..."Surely the altering and changing of a song is part of the folk process is it not? "
Nope - every song that had ever been changed wulfd be a folk song using that logic."

And that is false equivalence - like saying "A donkey has four legs, therefore every animal with four legs is a donkey".

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 02:46 AM

Quite, BWM. I may have phrased it badly though so I will try again.

Surely the altering and changing of a song is part of the folk process (along with various other things that preclude it from becoming a folk song) is it not?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 02:48 AM

Sorry that do not preclude it from becoming a folk song etc.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 02:48 AM

I am saying the opposite All
Changing a song has no part in defining it a folk songs, though it is something that can happen naturally during the process but it is not a defining feature
I may be nit-picking, but people have argued that the fact that changes that have taken place in a song automatically prove it to be 'folk'
It's not as simple as that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 03:10 AM

Some people may have argued that changes prove it is a folk song, Jim, but not me. I simply said that altering or changing a song is part of the folk process.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 03:59 AM

"part of the folk process."
It can happen during the folk process - but what if no changes occur - is it still a folk song ?
There aren't too many different versions of Dark Eyed Sailor
What do you do if there is only one documented version on record?
Roud contains a number of ours that have never been found elsewhere
Maybe I have nit-picked Dave
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 04:13 AM

OK, Jim.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,guessed
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 07:27 AM

'Roud contains a number of ours that have never been found elsewhere'

The wife and I collect fossils. We may refer to our collection as 'ours'. It belongs to us. But I am not quite comfortable with the use of 'ours' by collectors to refer to songs that they have 'collected'.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 08:15 AM

That's not what I said Brian - ornamentation for ornamentation's sake can do just that, but used subtly to underline important words, it can be an invaluable addition to the song... it's the "look how clever I am" approach to the song that spoils the song for me - neither singing nor instrumental playing"

Sorry for the misquote, Jim. I quite concur with your last statement and have certainly heard examples, though we might disagree over where to draw the line. For instance, Nic Jones' setting of 'Canadee-I-O' begins with a lengthy and beautifully played guitar intro and includes a similar break part-way through, but to my ears that doesn't detract from the narrative. It's simply a very fine piece of music that includes a well-told story.