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UK Folk Revival 2018
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,MATT MILTON Date: 22 Aug 18 - 12:34 PM Interesting that it's taken as read, as a given, as undisputed truth, by so many posts in this thread that folk clubs are dying. In London I have plenty of folk clubs to attend. The Goose Is Out, Bermondsey Folk Club, Cellar Upstairs, Walthamstow, Musical Traditions, Croydon, among others... You will hear traditional folk songs at all of them. They are in general well attended. Yes, most of the audience is 60+ but it's folk music, what do you expect... there is a smattering of younger people. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:03 PM It isn't taken as read by all, Matt. I have reservations and, as I have highlighted, the number of festivals does not seem to be declining as stated at all. Near me (Airedale) there is plenty going on. Whether everyone would class it as folk is another question. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:32 PM What a pity pfr that you cannot provide any examples of this. But let us look at what you've said: I get a distict whiff of you dictating your tastes and opinions more loudly than others here... You might not exactly be saying right now "I order you to comply with my views on folk" .. but we certainly get a sense you would if you could... Have a quick count of relative number of posts to this thread and you will see very clearly who's pushing their opinions more loudly than others This 252 post thread. You pfr have posted 36 times whereas I have only posted 21 times. As to the forum your 3535 posts to my 351. By the way pfr who is the "we" you are referring to in what I suppose passes for that last sentence quoted above?
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,jag Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:34 PM How has the number of people, age profile and tradiotionalness of material at festival pub sessions and singarounds changed over the years? What people do, rather than what they pay to listen to. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:52 PM Observer - are you certain you are not Keith...??? So... sitting on the bog ruminating... I now recall a band from my mid 1970s teens.. Hedgehog Pie but I can't remember where I would have heard them... John Peel..??? I'm fairly sure I never bought any of their LPs, because the town record shop, and Woolworths carried very limited stock .. the Library had an extensive shelf of Topic LPs, but not much recent folk. Brenda Wooton was popular, I think she was on our local telly a fair bit. Saw her live in concert... Really difficult finding her tracks online for a reminder... I'm off to google any Hedgehog Pie... |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 02:02 PM Sorry, last guest was me. It was an accident but serves to prove the point about not knowing who guests are :-) |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Aug 18 - 02:41 PM knObserver - whoever you are, or how many you are... I am obviously not shy in voicing my opinions, but I do so in good humour; and will never consider myself a voice of authority, or superior to anybody else... [though obviously I might be where a few individuals are concerned...] so go OCD yerself in a Keith stylee on that... ps.. you neglected to count GUEST,punkfolkrocker... that should keep you occupied while we all get on and enjoy life... |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 22 Aug 18 - 07:14 PM Good question GUEST,jag: How has the number of people, age profile and tradiotionalness of material at festival pub sessions and singarounds changed over the years? What people do, rather than what they pay to listen to. There are five festivals that I have been attending regularly over the past fifteen years based in the UK and in Europe. Taking the one in Europe first, it never really had a fringe but at least two out of the four concert venues were free. Over the years during the period of the festival various bars and eateries hired in bands playing rock and pop covers in an attempt to keep their premises full and busy. This has drawn the public away from the festival venues and the festival started losing funding and they were forced to drop one of their two big paying venues. What used to be a large international folk festival is now very much scaled down with mostly "local" artists playing with a slight scattering of foreign artists. One of the UK festivals supports a great pub session scene which is mainly traditional tunes played to an amazingly high standard. Bands booked by the festival are assigned pubs to be in to get sessions going and should they start to flag keep them going. The others, all UK based festivals, have changed markedly over the years. One used to run for seven days, now it has shortened in to three days. Bands and artists used to play at the sessions with locals and visitors joining in. It used to be a mix of trad tunes and songs, Spanish songs, and contemporary UK and American folk. The change has been that the artists booked for the concerts arrive do their concert and move on, rarely will they appear for any of the sessions, there now seems to be more of an audience at what are stated as being sessions with fewer locals participating and now very few tunes are played and the songs are mainly poor covers of 60s and 70s pop songs. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Aug 18 - 08:30 PM So essentially... "Everything changes in time. Nothing lasts forever. All things will eventually perish.. Make the best of what you can while you can.. ..I'm depressed now...". There, I'll freely donate these words of simple folksy wisdom for a run of Tee shirts, to be sold on behalf of a favourite festival benefit survival fund..... My regular folk fest closed after 10 successful years. The volunteers were getting older and exhausted, and council and business subsidies had dwindled - a casualty of austerity... It was the last annual event I could take my mum to, that she looked forward to. But on the positive side, the festival announced it would be no more, as my mum's dementia worsened to the degree where she wouldn't have been able to attend it anymore anyway... At least the festival closure relieved me of the unpleasant job of telling her we couldn't take her to it any longer... Nature's balance... Nothing lasts forever... not even traditions... ..or foam & rubber components in Hi Fi Equipment... or tesco bags that we stored precious things in 10 to 20 years ago... ..that's bloody annoying when you open a box and get covered in all the flakes and tiny particles... |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 02:25 AM Yes, getting back to the topic. Good point made by Matt. Does anyone have any evidence that the folk scene is in decline? We have already disproved that festivals are dying. There are more open mic nights than ever and by their inherent inclusiveness there is plenty opportunity to perform folk music there. So, apart from the word of a handful of people on here, is there any evidence? The very title of this thread and the OP seems to indicate that there is plenty of folk about. Just not in the same format as it was 50 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Aug 18 - 03:14 AM DtG - yeah, observer seeems to be in an almighty sulk that the world won't stand still for him/her... Whereas, Jim is doing a magnificent job of archiving, preserving, and advocating our tradition while it still remains in a relatively healthy condition... Insurance for if/when trad folk becomes extinct in the wild.. At least it won't be lost forever like the Dodo and T.Rex... We might not always agree with Jim's opinions and conclusions, but he deserves the highest esteem.... |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM Spot on PFR. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 18 - 03:38 AM the change has been that the artists booked for the concerts arrive do their concert and move on, rarely will they appear for any of the sessions, there now seems to be more of an audience at what are stated as being sessions with fewer locals participating and now very few tunes are played and the songs are mainly poor covers of 60s and 70s pop songs." I think there is some truth in the above statement, and i think it is a change for the worse, why is this hapeening ,is it because organsers of festivals do not want to pay for accomodation? as regards the second statement there has been a small increase in people playing covers of pop music ,not sure about the decline in tune playing, if that is the case the fault lies with the organisation for not stipulating clearly what the session is about or not using the performers who will play trad tunes |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Aug 18 - 04:05 AM last post before I try and get a few hours sleep... I wonder if some folks are too narrow focused on perceived problems, by viewing folk clubs/festivals in a vacuum, isolated from wider cultural change and economic austerity... A lot of change for the worst is out of our control, but it impacts significantly upon us. At a time when an excess of wannabe pro folk artists are competing for arguably decreasing oportunities... ..and amateur folkies have far more diversions and distractions for their attention and spending cash... Clubs are a quaint British pastime.. ..are fancy hamster breeder clubs and model railway clubs, etc.. having similar introspective existential crisis discussions...????? However, recorded folk music in all it's variants is available alll over the internet, and 'live' performance abounds on youtube... Amateur live streaming perfomances offer so much potential as the tech gets cheaper and more reliable... We will relish sitting in our homes jammming in real time with friends all over the world. That is becoming reality... |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 Aug 18 - 04:27 AM Dave the Gnome's last post: Good point made by Matt. Does anyone have any evidence that the folk scene is in decline? We have already disproved that festivals are dying. There are more open mic nights than ever and by their inherent inclusiveness there is plenty opportunity to perform folk music there. So, apart from the word of a handful of people on here, is there any evidence? The very title of this thread and the OP seems to indicate that there is plenty of folk about. Just not in the same format as it was 50 years ago. The good point made by GUEST, MATT MILTON that - In London I have plenty of folk clubs to attend. - hardly surprising, MATT is after all talking about the nation's capital city and the most populous part of the country where nearly 22% of the the population of the UK live. MATT also goes on to say - the audience is 60+ but it's folk music, what do you expect... there is a smattering of younger people. - and this is taken as evidence of a 2018 Folk Revival? At what point Dave did the "we", you and pfr keeping mentioning, disprove that festivals are dying. Just a cursory examination of the link supplied by GUEST, For DtG shows that 16% of the festivals listed either aren't in the UK at all, or are specifically not folk festivals. You state - There are more open mic nights than ever and by their inherent inclusiveness there is plenty opportunity to perform folk music there. - A number of points on that statement which render the point you are trying to make irrelevant and meaningless: 1. Just because the sign says "open mic" it does not mean that anyone can just wander in go up to the mic and launch into their party piece. Open Mic sessions tend to be organised, i.e. somebody is running it, and whether, or not, you get to do your stuff is entirely up to them, and if this is held in a pub then the person running it will generally tend to favour locals who he knows over strangers that he doesn't. So much for your assumption of inherent inclusiveness. 2. Just because there is opportunity to perform folk music does not mean that folk music is performed. So you mentioning the increase in the number of "open mic" nights signifies nothing. 3. The normal venues for these "open mic" nights are pubs, correct? Tell me Dave in your experience is the number of pubs increasing, or decreasing throughout the UK today? Don't know about where you live, but where I live they are going out of business at an alarming rate. In 2016, according to the Guardian, there were 52,750 pubs in the UK and at that time they were closing at the rate of 27 per week. So all those budding folk musicians had best get their skates on before all those "open mic" opportunities disappear. By the way Dave where were you when there was a thread on this forum about the increasing number of pubs who were adopting a policy of banning "live music" as they were reluctant to shell out for PRS Licences? One whole chain of pubs banned live music on their premises - Samuel Smith's wasn't it? 4. The OP from GUEST,Despondent of Slough asked the following question: How much do is it now propelled by Commercial pressures and what are the advantages and disadvantages of Commercialisation The title assumes that there is a 2018 Folk Revival in the UK, myself and others dispute that as we can see no evidence of it and pointed to the fact there have been numerous threads on this forum bemoaning the fact that folk clubs are closing and festivals are dying in both cases mainly because people cannot be found who are willing to take them on and run them. That would never be the case in the world of folk music that Jim Carroll knows and has described, but it is the reality over here in the UK because what is being played has excluded many who used to participate, so that now there are more listeners in a attendance than there are performers. The law of diminishing returns. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 23 Aug 18 - 05:11 AM I partially agree with PFR that societal change plays a part in the very evident demise of folk music, but to equate the real thing, the atmosphere, the personal contact, the participation where appropriate, with youtube videos no matter how technically proficient, is a grave mistake......we are losing the heart and soul of the music by commercial dilution. Traditional music is designed to make you happy enough to dance and to make you think hard enough to gain some understanding of life and what it brings. Folk music could be a bridge back from what society is very rapidly becoming, a joining together of people regardless of age or circumstance, in the face of rampant commercialism and social insanity. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 05:43 AM I disagree, Observer. You have not proven the point that folk is in decline in any way shape or form. Folk is easily accessible any night of the week where I live too. And Airedale is far from being a major population centre. Your point about 16% of the festivals in the link not being folk festivals is a red herring. There are still 100 more festivals on their list that there were in 2010 and even if 16% of them are not what you regard as folk, that is still 84 more. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pete Date: 23 Aug 18 - 06:10 AM I wasn't around during the folk club boom years stretching from the '50s to the '70s, I guess. I wish I could go back and experience what must have been really wonderful times. That said, I feel very fortunate to be around now too. I live in a village in Cumbria but I could get to a session without too much of a drive most nights of the week. We also have little festivals that bring the full-time pros to 'town' and plenty of little gigs in village halls, arts centres and the like bringing in musicians at every level - including every price level. I first got interested in folk music about 18 years ago and, in that time, I have seen considerable growth of what is available locally, both for players and for listeners. In recent years I have met a number of well known performers who have come through the 'folk degree' route. I have booked a couple for events and shared a tune with one or two as well. These are the people who have really never had a full-time job other than 'folk musician'. The ones I have met have been polite, interesting and interested in what is going on locally and have shown great knowledge and deference in respect of what has gone before them. It does not seem that commercialisation has in any way diminished the attitude of those musicians and I have no doubt that they contribute to the scene as a whole enormously. I am a bit old fashioned (and highly distrustful of 'the market' as a force for good). I like most things to be a bit rustic shall we say. I prefer semi-pro sport to the top flight stuff, a cask best bitter (or mild!) to a kegged craft ale and my music to be pretty small scale, intimate, wooden sounding and even a bit unpolished. But, I have found the new professionals I have met to embody that visceral, honest, grounded attitude very well and to show very little ego. I have had some incredibly selfless offers to come and perform at events we have put on for very modest fees from some pretty well known names. All in all, I think it is a wonderful time to be a lover of folk and traditional music though, as stated, I have no personal experience of earlier times to make comparisons. I sort of let the really commercialised stuff just go by me a bit. There is so much rootsy stuff to enjoy and so many performers who, despite their own notoriety and commercial value, still play all manner of little gigs and sessions too. I can't comment on what we may have lost over the decades but, over the course of my time, I feel like we have gained considerably. i am not sure if that is the kind of response that the OP was looking for by the way! :-) |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Captain Swing Date: 23 Aug 18 - 06:29 AM Well said Pete. I couldn't agree more! |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:01 AM Of course you disagree Dave, that is your automatic default position to anything certain posters contribute and I, for one, am not even going to attempt to try and get you to change your mind - pointless exercise. Folk is easily accessible any night of the week where I live too - Dare say it is, but of course, that all depends on what your definition of folk is. It is obviously far different to mine and a few others posting here. Personally I do not want to go to something that purports to be a "folk club" and listen to poorly played and poorly sung Beatles and Eagles covers, I do not go there to listen to jazz, rock or hits from the shows. It would appear to me that you equate what folk (people) sing or play to being folk music - basically it isn't and Jim Carroll has done his damnedest to explain the crucial difference, unfortunately his efforts seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Your approach to festivals seems to be one of "Never mind the quality, feel the width". It seems obvious to me that if a festival does not take place in the UK it should not be named, or feature, in a list entitled UK Folk Festivals, I dare say that you will disagree with that also. I wonder how many trad folk bands or solo artists get booked to play at the festivals listed that are described as Cajun & Zydeco festivals, jazz festivals, bluegrass festivals, blues festivals, dance festivals? Yet all seem to feel free to appear at "folk" festivals, but there again to be honest although billed as "folk" festivals they should be more accurately described as "Music" festivals. As Jim Carroll has said on previous threads you attend a "folk" festival, or go into a "folk" club and what you get ain't what it says on the tin. No retorts with regard to "open mic" nights, pub closures, or PRS concerns. Over the last couple of decades those attending folk clubs have gone from being participants who contributed and joined in to now being merely an audience. Why? Because the over-riding impression given now is that you have play something, preferably self-penned, to contribute. Being self-penned of course means that nobody knows the material being sung which reduces audience participation to zilch. The same material gets trotted out week after week and the crowd gets bored and doesn't bother to turn up. The folk club I attend regularly has about six Guest Artist nights per year, on those nights the majority of the regular performers at the "session" nights don't turn up because they can't play. On the nights that they do play, with the material that they play, nobody joins in with them. They are only interested in doing their own thing - you cannot build anything of any substance and meaning upon that base and expect it to survive. There is no evidence at all of there being a 2018 UK Folk Revival. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:16 AM There is no evidence at all of there being a 2018 UK Folk Revival. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that folk is widely available even on this thread. That is no different to the anecdotal evidence you are supplying for evidence of decline apart from there is more to suggest that your analysis is incorrect. I have also provided data driven evidence that the number of festivals is now greater than it was 10 years ago. If you provide any actual data that things are different I may be swayed. BTW - that is your automatic default position to anything certain posters contribute gives you away as one who was a member but cannot or will not log in under your own Mudcat name for some reason. I have a good idea who. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,kenny Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:33 AM There has definitely been an increase in the availability of "folk" music [ a totally meaningless and discredited term these days IMHO ], in and around Aberdeen since the 1970s / 1980s, especially instrumental sessions. The question of quality, competence and musicianship is something else entirely. At a "singaround-style" music event I went to on Tuesday night, I had to put up with "Bus Stop" [ "The Hollies" ] sung unaccompanied, badly, and the theme from "Born Free". I'm fairly certain that there are more "Folk Festivals" in Scotland now than there were in the 1980s. I'm also fairly certain that there are fewer "Folk Clubs" in Scotland now than in the 1980s. Where you could go to hear an evening of traditional Scottish music in Aberdeen on any given night, I could not tell you. "Folk revival" ? What exactly is it that is being "revived" ? |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:43 AM What irks me is when youngsters barely out of short trousers (and even this description, my children tell me, makes no sense nowadays) write songs about wishing they were young again. I've seen this several times recently! But I want people to be writing songs about today, about Trump, about climate change, about food banks, about spare bedroom charge and so on. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:49 AM Unfortunately for you Dave the forum is free and open to be read by all, and flitting through the threads, both above and below the line, as interest takes my fancy the frequency and content of your posts is there for all to see - hence the conclusion drawn. As to your conclusions and suspicions, no need for me to have ever been a member. I am not interested at all in swaying your opinion on anything, as your opinions are of no interest or importance to me. However, pointing up the inaccuracies and faults in your "anecdotal evidence" does interest me. One reason for the apparent increase in the number of "folk festivals" over the last ten years Dave could be that ten years ago perhaps Folk Festivals that weren't in the UK were not included. Only actual Folk Festivals were included as opposed to myriad "music festivals" that now appear on that list. I could go through the links full list, my cursory examination to date has thrown up some festivals that I would like to go to. By the way would you call a festival that only lasts one night a festival or a concert? I ask as there are quite a number of those included in that link's list of "UK Folk Festivals", likewise competitions, not really festivals of the sort we are talking about, are they? |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:59 AM The figures given were for England only and your cursory examination seems to have missed that point. I find it quite telling that you will address so much to someone who's opinions you are not interested in and you are not interested in swaying. I can only draw the conclusion that if your interests do not lie in those areas they can only be in just arguing for arguments sake. Anyhow, Joe has already said we need to keep to the point. I am happy to do so. Will you reciprocate and provide us with any evidence, other than anecdotal, that the folk scene in England is in the mess you are suggesting or can we assume that this is purely your opinion? |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 Aug 18 - 08:16 AM By all means let us stick to the point. Thread title - UK Folk Revival 2018 Question asked - How much is it now propelled by Commercial pressures and what are the advantages and disadvantages of Commercialisation That there is a current Folk Revival in the UK is arguable - I see no evidence for it. Commercial pressures have shut down some quite long running folk festivals and caused others to limit their scope in terms of times, venues and selection of artists invited to perform. As far as "folk music" goes as I understand the term commercialisation has no obvious advantages for the genre in general, it does however have many obvious disadvantages, as commerce decides what is marketable and what is not, as previously stated the way things are going leads to an ever diminishing return. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 18 - 08:24 AM "Folk revival" ? What exactly is it that is being "revived" ? A GOOD POINT, as far as I am concerned it should be tradtional music and modern songs of social comment written in a particular style that has some sort of continuity from trad music, there are some modern songs,'born today ' for example as performed by richard grainger, i am also happy to iclude blues in this category, but bus stop and born free, no thanks |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Aug 18 - 10:01 AM twas me who brought in the mongolian nosefutes. i think what inspired that . I can't help reading a copy without thinking of Adrian Mole who wanted to live on BBC Channel 4.was a singer of zulu satirical songs whose lyrics were - 'oh so telling' I've never really warmed to Froots. I can never read a copy without thinking of Adrian Mole who wanted to live on BBC Radio 4. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 18 - 11:03 AM I believe it would be good if the EFDSS were to run one festival which promoted english folk dance and englsh tradtional song, so that these minority interests are encouraged, the problem for commercial folk festivals is that if english folk dance and songs do not draw large numbers the organisers will not feature them, i suspect that larger commercial festivals are already sidelining english tradtional dance and song, thus we need EFDSS TO STEP IN AND RUN SOMETHING LIKE THE FESTIVAL THAT USED TO HAPPEN AT SUTTON BONINGTON. If there was an international folk dance and song society i hope it would promote international dance and song but that is not the remit of EFDSS. FOR EXAMPLE SHREWSBURY FOLK FESTIVAL, only a small minority of revival performers performing trad english music,notably the wilsob family |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 12:23 PM Hartlepoool look pretty well served with traditional acts. Just looking at their line up for the traditional ones I recognise I see - Lankum Kathryn Tickell The Wilsons Jim Moray Sandra Kerr Alistair Anderson Johnny Handle Brian Peters There are many other acts but only those I recognise as performing traditional stuff. And they are a new festival! :-) |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 18 - 12:36 PM yes,Dave, one festival, likewise Whitby, but does one or evn two swallows make a summer?it would be better to look at the overall picture |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 12:58 PM It does not, Dick, but apart from anecdotal evidence there is still nothing to indicate that folk music is in decline. In fact, based on anecdotal evidence on this thread, the reverse is true. I.e. More people are reporting an upswing than a downturn. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 01:01 PM You could help though, Dick. You are a traditional artist. Are your opportunities to perform diminishing? |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 18 - 01:17 PM there has been a decline in guest booking clubs, so the majority of people are working less., but compared to forty years ago there has in my opinion been a shift gradually from trad music, part of the reason ,why i moved to ireland in 1990, so ican work in two places, fewer guest clubs[affects all performers] I have just done saltburn festival plus three other clubs as part of a tour. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 01:44 PM So the shift is not necessarily away from folk clubs but from clubs booking traditional acts? Which could confirm just what I am saying, that the folk scene is not in decline but just evolving. It is very unfair to say, as some have on here, that non trad acts are talentless navel gazers when we have such splendid singer songwriters as Anthony John Clark, Phil Hare and Pete Morton to name but 3 doing the rounds. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 Aug 18 - 02:47 PM I believe what Sandman said was - there has been a decline in guest booking club so the majority of people are working less. - I don't know quite how that gets interpreted by Dave the Gnome into - So the shift is not necessarily away from folk clubs but from clubs booking traditional acts? Logic would seem to infer that the number of clubs booking guests have declined, therefore the opportunities for ALL genres of guest performers has been diminished, NOT just traditional acts. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Aug 18 - 03:14 PM Folks can moan as much as they like, but British trad folk compares weakly to more enjoyable American and European equivalents... Hence the popularity of more musically adventurous world 'folk' festivals... To some Brit mudcatters, the music isn't even that essential, they seem to regard trad folk as just a slightly more highly evolved form of story telling and poetry...??? That's not good enough for most folks who like to enjoy folk music... ..and the Brit Trad songs that actually have good melodies have been so sung to death over the last 65 years, a lot of us of sick of hearing them yet again.. even if they have been spiced up with loud guitars or electro beats... there I'm awake again, best sleep I've had all summer.. unfortunately at the wrong time of day... bugger.. never made it to the post office.. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 04:57 PM You don't know because you are not aware of all the facts, observer. You could send a PM to Dick to be appraised of a conversation we have had but, once again, I suggest you stick to the topic in question. You still seem to be spending a lot of time responding to someone who's opinions you have already discounted. Maybe you could give us some proof that folk music is in decline rather than glibly stating it is with no evidence to support that. Fewer guests being booked could well mean that there are more singers sessions, therefore less commercialism and a return to the music of the people. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Aug 18 - 05:01 PM Punkfolkrocker says: but British trad folk compares weakly to more enjoyable American and European equivalents... And over here in the U.S., I hear complaints that folkies sing only British songs and ignore the American-born ones. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 18 - 05:04 PM The other man's grass and all that. Maybe that is what this fuss is all about? :-) |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 23 Aug 18 - 06:01 PM Please don't take over Shrewsbury. I've got an amazing weekend of music to get involved with. There may be even be some young people there!! Watch this space for 'Folk or nope' |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 23 Aug 18 - 06:03 PM Actually I'll start now John Tams - folk or nope Obviously folk but some may disagree as he wrote songs in the last 50 years ;-) |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 18 - 06:42 PM Iwas not suggesting taking over shrewsbury ,what i suggested was EFDSS put on a festival that promotes solely tradtional folk song and dance, do you have a problem with that joe g?, you may enjoy shrewsbury, and quoting one songwriter from a festival bears no relevance to the point i made about a minority of tradtional music at the festival. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 Aug 18 - 06:51 PM over here in the U.S., I hear complaints that folkies sing only British songs and ignore the American-born ones. Ah but Joe do they sing them in phony British accents? Over here in the UK when singing American songs phoney American accents seem de rigueur. The result is absolutely hilarious. Dave the Gnome - You don't know because you are not aware of all the facts, observer. - Hate to point out the obvious Dave but neither are you aware of all the facts. My anecdotal evidence is to discredited but yours must be taken at face value as the gospel truth? Give over. You asked Sandman a direct question and he gave you an honest answer that you then attempted to spin to suit your argument. Here is another of your twists: Maybe you could give us some proof that folk music is in decline rather than glibly stating it is with no evidence to support that. When did I say that folk music is in decline? I have said a number of times that traditional "folk music" as I know it does not need to chase an audience. I also said this: The title assumes that there is a 2018 Folk Revival in the UK, myself and others dispute that as we can see no evidence of it and pointed to the fact there have been numerous threads on this forum bemoaning the fact that folk clubs are closing and festivals are dying in both cases mainly because people cannot be found who are willing to take them on and run them. If you want evidence of festivals and folk clubs shutting up shop go to the threads on this forum where others, i.e. NOT ME, brought the subject up. If you want to put questions then please address what has actually been said as opposed to what you think has been said, or what you would have liked to have seen said. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:18 PM I wonder what the equivalent bitter arguments about falling standards and declining membership at a fancy hamster breeders club sound like...??? There are bound to be the same personality archetypes as found here at mudcat... |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 24 Aug 18 - 01:36 AM Clubs are a quaint British pastime. Naw I think that if you looked you would find them all over the world. As to your latest point that follows Joe's advice about sticking to the point: I wonder what the equivalent bitter arguments about falling standards and declining membership at a fancy hamster breeders club sound like...??? What bitter arguments? I would doubt very much if there would be such with your fancy hamster breeders club mainly due to the fact that the club would consist of those interested in breeding fancy hamsters. In that club you would not have people dragging in reptiles, canines, llamas and fish telling other club members that they were fancy hamsters. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Aug 18 - 01:51 AM I am not discounting your anecdotal evidence, Observer. I have just said that there is more anecdotal evidence supporting my case than yours on this thread. I am however confused now. My case is and only ever had been that folk music is not in decline. You are now saying you do not say it is. If that is the case then we seem to be in agreement. So just what is it you are arguing about? |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 24 Aug 18 - 02:15 AM Sorry sticking to the point mentioned in the OP I forgot to mention in the first part of the last post regarding Clubs being a quaint British pastime. Had there been no Folk Clubs formed in the UK in the 1960s there would have been no "Folk Revival" in the UK as, due to commercialisation, there would have been nowhere where that music would have been played. The very first "folk club" I went to in the early to mid-60s was in the school I attended. The town itself did not have a folk club and as far as I am aware even until this day (In the height of this supposed 2018 UK Folk Revival) still does not have one. The origins of the folk revival of the 60s came to the UK from the USA in the 50s in the form of Skiffle which had its roots in Jazz. Commercialisation killed off skiffle because they couldn't make any money out of it, there were something like 30,000 to 50,000 skiffle bands on the go in the UK at it's height. So skiffle died a death and evolved, the main thrust of that evolution became "pop" music, where things could be managed and manipulated and a great deal of money could be made. The same remains as the case today. |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Aug 18 - 02:18 AM Pedantry and taking things literally is a quaint British pastime... .. yes.. I know.. there are pedants all over the universe... not just in British folk circles... ..and by circles.. I don't literally mean folk linking hands in a circle... |
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Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 24 Aug 18 - 02:35 AM I am not arguing at all Dave. The point under discussion is the assumption given in the title of this thread that we are, in 2018, in the middle of a folk revival in the UK, and although I agree with the questioning of it, I would like to point out to all, I was not responsible for the post that raised the matter - See the seventh post to this thread - Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:14 PM What "revival" ? To which I responded four posts later with: Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 18 Aug 18 - 05:14 AM GUEST, Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:14 PM, good question, it is one I would have asked myself had you not beaten me to it. Don't expect an answer though. Mr Red above has got the measure of it, very few real Folk Festivals around these days they are all now "Music" Festivals where anything goes. By the way what Mr Red said that I agreed with was: Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Mr Red Date: 18 Aug 18 - 03:22 AM What I object to is the kind of faded Punk performers who feel the best way to revive their career is to claim Folkdom. And charge more for one badly sung performance (and playing punk guitar regardless of skill) than the same weekend of top notch ceilidh bands all put together. And then have the effrontery to harrangue and hector the audience on who to vote for - in one party! |
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