BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:36 PM

The LibDems are pink Tories and always have been. Because of their opportunistic and shabby alliance with Cameron (who cynically shat on them from a great height), which helped to visit the disaster of brexit on this country, they have lost all credibility. All expedience, no integrity, no vision, no bloody use. And they won't be coming back in your or my lifetime. Thank God. And I even like Vince a little bit, in an odd sort of way...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:55 PM

"They will be fighting for some of that space with the current government which has partially moved into that vacuum."

Well you know me. I'm very sceptical of all this middle-ground talk. Claiming the middle ground sounds like a ploy, you're claiming to be safe and cosy and the protector of the the status quo, I'm a guy just like you, boy next door, you can really trust me... So I'd like you to tell me which Tories you consider to have moved into this "vacuum" to which you refer. Well I suppose Sarah Wollaston is a nice lady, but she hasn't moved there. She's been there all the time, if there really is a "there." Any others?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:05 PM

Jim Carroll wrote a few messages back:

Some of the worst examples of 'a free society' have come from former communist (sic) states; Russia, Former Yugoslavia... and plunged into a dog-eat-dog world
I think Brexit and Trump started the ball rolling seriously

Some of the most corrosive downgrades from democracies of sorts have been:

Turkey
Hungary
Poland
Philippines
Venezuela
India to a lesser extent

Democracies and Republics are subject to failure. They can fail due to catastrophe, to conquest, to civil war, to enough decline in civic virture which is something I think we're seeing here. People confusing ends with means.

I do not include Russia because Russia has never had a stable democracy. They kicked one around for a couple years in the 90s but due to luck, weakness and craziness they did not get a fair start. Now they're wiping nerve toxin on people's front doors.

To quote President Obama: "It did not start with Donald Trump. He is a symptom, not the cause."

I'm pretty sure I've said the same exact thing independently in these threads.

Supposedly someone came up to Benjamin Franklin late in the Constitutional Convention and asked what kind of government the delegates had come up with. He said: "A republic, if you can keep it."

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:19 PM

The sharpest, most sudden and most frightening downgrade of democracy is currently taking place in the United States. Can't think why you didn't include it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:27 PM

What's your point Robo - I said "some"?
You may not but I'm sure your idea of a "stable democracy" would include many that are not
You were advocating not so long ago for a "stable Democracy" that is in the process of erhnic cleansing cultural undesirables
Your view of the Soviet Union is a mixture of Len Deighton, The Manchurian Candidate and Joe McCarthy, giving the impression that an entire population of getting on for 300 million people allowed themselves to be enslaved and oppressed by security men and politicians - more to do with schoolboy comic-books than reality
As Steve said, America is rapidly becoming the most unstable and dangerous power on the planet
Parliamentary Democracy in Britain is becoming more of a con-trick by the day - they promise - we vote them in - they ignore everything they promised for five year - and so on ad-infinitum   
DEmocracy is now in meltdown, Governments like ours buy support from whoever they can
Russia and Israel have shown how national independence can be breached with their examples of active interference in the policies of other States
I can't remember when any of us went to the polls with the belief that what we were being promised had any basis in reality
I'm nott an Anarchist but I have always had a soft spot for their slogan - DON'T VOTE FOR ANY OF THEM - IT ONLY ENCOURAGES THEM
What is happening in countries that are seeing a rise in the fotri#tunes of the ne-Nazis is a gradual progression from what is happening here

A couple of years ago I would have laughed if somebody had told me someone like Trump would beccome the most powerful leader in the world - now I'm not sure that he won't win another term

"Page not found Iains ............"
Wouldn't bother too much Rag - it's a 'survey' from a multi-million stock-exchange marketed company named You-gov with Conservative Party connections whose surveys are all carried out on the internet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 11:03 PM

Its not that The Guardian is left wing.

Its that sort of poncy Dave Spart type left wing. The sort you can rely on to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:32 AM

Debating techniques employed by the usual suspects. Luv the crack about racists and reducation!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4q-VbAIMzU



Oh, and by the way Jim, care to demonstrate in what way the statistics on the yougov site are incorrect? You make the usual mistake of conflating the source with the content. Is this because you blather everything in ketchup?

Strange ipsos mori gives identical results. Are they a tory stitch up as well?

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/voting-newspaper-readership-1992-2010

I do enjoy your constant denial of reality. This is what comes of inhabiting a timewarp!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:44 AM

God certainly knew what he was at when to made bullies
He took away their brains and substituted big mouths
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:01 AM

But I am a paid up member of the truth and reconciliation dream team.
I bet you never accused Mandela of being a bully!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM

So now the Lib Dems are left wing? Even though they formed a coalition with the Tories? Just shows how far right everything has become.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:32 AM

Dave, it shows what a waste of time it is trying to hold a conversation with a bunch of cunts whose only interest is in destroying threads.

I'm done here. Have good lives, see you on the other side of The Bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:41 AM

He took away their brains and substituted big mouths!

jimmie , you have described yourself to a T. but what this has to do with the subject matter of the thread escapes me.

As the Libdems only have 12 seats out of 650, the only part of the political spectrum they inhabit is a fast evaporating limbo. What is the point of even mentioning them, other than they have the affliction of generally being readers of the guardian?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:02 AM

Important topics need to be discussed, BWM. If you just treat the trolls as background noise we can still discuss without pandering to their need for attention. If I got off the bus every time a nutter started talking to me I would never get anywhere :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:18 AM

Well one down. That should clean up the language a bit. With a gag on the troll from Claire serious conversation can continue. Next please!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:39 AM

" If you just treat the trolls as background noise we can still discuss without pandering to their need for attention"
What else Dave?
It seems to me that we need to look at the political Parties, what they are and what they have become
THe Conservatives have always been what they claim to be - conservers of the status quo.
Thatcher summed up the role of her party beautifully with her "return to "Victorian values"
She was either stupid or honest enough when she laid open her Party's politics by siding with mass murderer Pinochet and describing him "a hero of democracy"

The Labour Party came into being, as its title describes, to represent the interests of working people in a Capitalist society
It was never revolutionary or extreme in any way -it was created by working people out of the Trades Unions as their voice at the beginning of the twentieth century.
Given occasional lapses, it did that pretty well for the first fifty odd years
It ascertained that working people didn't carry the can back after the Wars and virtually reconstructed Britain - free medicine, affordable homes and a way of paying for it without penalising those who couldn't afford to.
It seems to me, my MP, Harold Wilson, was the first to sell out big-time; from there, the party has represented the wealthy and treated politics as a career rather than a calling
Now Labour even has its very own war criminal to put alongside all the Tory ones.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:45 AM

Each and every one of Iain's last TEN posts in this thread, starting from the 09.01am post on 10 September, has contained condescension, sarcasm or insults, or a combination, along with little or no constructive content, directed at other people posting here.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:48 AM

I am that nutter, Dave. I talk to everybody. I wonder whether I've ever driven you off a bus...!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM

well i can understand BWM - there are times when the level of debate takes a nosedive.

we could all help by depersonalising the debate.

make our points without saying - you're saying that because you're a racist/ fascist/homophobe/ tory or labour twit/etc.

i think this is an interesting subject.

My sister made me understand something years ago. We were talking about newspapers - and she said to the Mirror was always on the side of working class people, and was far more 'on message' than other supposedly leftish papers like The Guardian. But the thing was, by the nature of the beast - its competitor was The Sun - so it had the nudie pics and the celeb chit chat. Nevertheless it voiced opinions, and saw things from a more consistently working class position than other newspapers.

I think the same obtains with politicians. The tories are a write-off. The bottom line is always tax cuts for the rich - because that's what they believe is the basis of a sound economy.

Now do you want a Labour politician who understands and embraces the nature of the task, or this continuing epic of self righteousness and utter disinterest in winning the 43 marginal seats that will mean care for the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:01 AM

I am never driven off the bus, Steve. I'll talk to anyone! Well, apart from the obvious exceptions om the mudcat bus ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:19 AM

Trump is harming the dream of America more than any foreign adversary ever could.
16 years of strategic missteps have been followed by the maniacal moves of a man who has savaged America's vital alliances, provided comfort to hostile foreign powers, attacked our intelligence and military and lent a sympathetic ear to Neo Nazis and white racists across the globe.

While I am a progressive I would settle for a middle ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:44 AM

I think that "a middle ground" sums it up neatly. Middle ground means what you want it to mean. I can define middle ground quite easily in terms of my values. But that's just me. I recall someone saying that Thatcher occupied the middle ground. Well, in terms of my middle ground, that makes two lots of middle ground seriously at odds with each other. I'm extremely suspicious of anyone who claims to have the middle ground. When you look at Vince and the Libdems, serial claimants of the middle ground, then consider the disreputable way the party has behaved since 2010, I think it's right to be suspicious. And suspicions are heightened when an incredibly weak party with an incredibly weak leader suggests that he can muster like-minded people around him in the middle ground...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:50 AM

"little or no constructive content, directed at other people posting here."

Rather depends upon how you view the counter arguments that make nonsense of much of your dogma I suppose. If you wish to view counter argument as insult, feel free. I would suggest that you have had your own bullying way on all these threads for so long that counter argument is labelled condescension, sarcasm or insults, or a combination. This rather betrays how long you have had your own way here and have been the cause of so many departing. Of course all threads being dominated by the hard left do tend to drive the more rational away.
From looking at your behaviour who can blame them?

Now if you really want to look at a source of insults, invective and defamatory statement you need look no further than jimmie. One could fill entire books with them and there is no point in trying to deny it. The truth is there for all to see.

Meanwhile back to the thread. It seems some labour MPs still have an issue with their fearless leader. Labour MPs loudly remonstrated with Corbyn's spokesman outside a meeting in Parliament, accusing st jeremy of failing to stand up for his own MPs. What a pretty pickle. Even the staunch labour newspaper the daily Mirror gives the issue headline coverage. Another fine mess you have got us into Corbyn!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:04 AM

Corbyn wiped out the Tory majority last year against all odds. Little wonder that the right wing are running scared of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:29 AM

Do you mean the Right Wing of the Labour Party Dave?
The Centre Left moderates?

None of this stuff comes from outside the Party Dave.
You can not blame the Tories for the turmoil in Labour any more than accuse the Left of causing all the trouble in the Tory Party.
It is all entirely internal.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:30 AM

I would have thought the only ones running scared of Corbyn are the Labour party rank and file. They are watching him preside over a fiasco while the party is determined to self destruct. He is re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Any party opposing him could only applaud at his antics.

As the mighty bard so eloquently phrased it:

within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of Corbyn
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear’d and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life,
Were brass impregnable, and humour’d thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell Corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM

Here is a link to a blog that makes some extremely interesting observations concerning the central ground of British politics and my feeling is such a seismic change in UK politics is entirely possible. The potential for hard brexit negating a UK exit fee also has some impact on the scenario outlined.


https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2018/09/11/analysis-how-the-uk-political-establishment-is-eating-itself-why-this-may-not-be-all-goo

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:43 AM

A LOT OF THIS FROM THE TOMMY ROBINSON CONTINGENT _ I THINK
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:44 AM

2017 election seat changes.

Tory. Down 13
Labour. Up 30

Tory party running scared. Right wing media running scared. Right wingers on here running scared. What a loser Corbyn is :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:20 AM

THE SMELLGAPH SAYS ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:20 AM

THE SMELLGAPH SAYS ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:31 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:43 AM
yet more oxygen of publicity to tommy robinson!

The weekly worker calls it oxygen of stupidity

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM

And of course to counter the non event of party membership numbers(It is the electorate that determine outcomes) there is the competing headline
of what labour moderates can do in a party they consider racist. Both conservative and labour have compelling reasons to split. I would argue previous voting trends are now meaningless. A new centercoalition is a distinct possibility.
Chaos to the left, betrayal from the right. The pot is boiling on the wasted heath.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:57 AM

THE MORE PUBLICITY THE BETTER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 12:36 PM

Some things must be too deep for others to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

Always happen to oblige
I always think that people like that should never be forgotten
It always comes in handy when people try to insult you to remind them who and what they are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

Always happen to oblige
I always think that people like that should never be forgotten
It always comes in handy when people try to insult you to remind them who and what they are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM

Interesting news tonight
Police Commissioner Cressida Cressida Dick has slammed the Government for refusing to sufficiently remunerate police police at the worst of times
Se describes the refusal as a PUNCH ON THE NOSE

In the light of threats of demonstrations (organised by an American woman resident of County Clare) Trump has chickened out of his planned visit to Ireland
They don't make Presidents like they used to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM

Interesting news tonight
Police Commissioner Cressida Cressida Dick has slammed the Government for refusing to sufficiently remunerate police police at the worst of times
Se describes the refusal as a PUNCH ON THE NOSE

In the light of threats of demonstrations (organised by an American woman resident of County Clare) Trump has chickened out of his planned visit to Ireland
They don't make Presidents like they used to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM

Tory. Down 13
Labour. Up 30

Labour still lost Dave, despite the most self destructive Tory campaign and manifesto ever seen.
Labour could well win the next election but too soon to celebrate yet I think.

Indie, 6 days ago,
"The Britain Elects poll tracker, which takes into account all results meeting British Polling Council standards, shows Labour with a one-point lead over the Tories.
It suggests a general election would produce a hung parliament with the Tories as the largest party."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-conservative-party-poll-survation-antisemitism-brexit-theresa-may-a8523411.html

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:44 PM

"...there is the competing headline of what labour moderates can do in a party they consider racist."

Well the cheerleader of these "moderates" seems to be that arch-moderate Tony Blair. He was so moderate that he lied to the country about WMDs, took us into a useless war in Iraq, covered up the death of David Kelly, got into bed with arch-warmonger Bush, sent our troops to Afghanistan and was largely responsible, along with puppetmaster Bush, for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan and for wrecking those countries. Oh, and most of those "moderates" voted for that war. With moderates like those, who needs extremists!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:51 PM

2010 General Election Results
Party                  Seats    Gain
Conservative       306       100
Labour                  258       4
Liberal Democrat   57              8
Democratic Unionist 8              0

HOW MAY HANGS ON BY HER HGHLY-POLISHED FINGERNAILS

UNITED WE STAND !!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:51 PM

2010 General Election Results
Party                  Seats    Gain
Conservative       306       100
Labour                  258       4
Liberal Democrat   57              8
Democratic Unionist 8              0

HOW MAY HANGS ON BY HER HGHLY-POLISHED FINGERNAILS

UNITED WE STAND !!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 02:32 PM

Anyone that wants to make a forecast of voting behaviour, should a snap election be called, is either very brave or very stupid. The pre election polls last time around were off by a country mile and with potential civil war in both parties the outcome would be anybodies guess.

"It always comes in handy when people try to insult you to remind them who and what they are" INDEED!
        Iains - PM
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 12:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 02:39 PM

09 Sep 18 - 09:51 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM

just a question, jim- why do you repeat your posts so often?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:17 PM

"Well the cheerleader of these "moderates" seems to be that arch-moderate Tony Blair."

I think the laddie has lost all street cred these days. The sort of center alliance I envisage would   have no place for bliar blair. Who on earth, even in the more deluded corners of the labour party, is going to give a vote to him?

Even the monster raving loony party would disown him!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 08:05 PM

I suppose if Corbyn offered the Lib Dems a second referendum.

They could take this lot down tomorrow.

I'm not saying its right. I voted leave , but wouldn't it make sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:25 PM

I have my severe doubts. Not just because I oppose referendums on principle, which I do, but because the result would be very close, one way or the other, and, as such, would satisfy no-one and would be just as divisive as last time. What we need is for politicians of all colours to stop arsing about and act on what they already know, which is that brexit is a bloody disaster. And ditch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 02:31 AM

"I suppose if Corbyn offered the Lib Dems a second referendum they could take this lot down tomorrow."
Now that's a thought, especially as th TUC ad even senior members of the Tory Party are now discussing it as a possibility
It is quite likely that, by the Brexit time large numbers of the Government will be forming their opposition Party
I wonder who May will bribe then - pity the BNP and Ukip are dead in the water !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 02:54 AM

Let's reclaim 200!