BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 05:47 AM

"It is a bit like shaw, who obviously went to the same maths school as the abbacus , and came away with nought."

Please state which part of the arithmetic I presented is in any way inaccurate. I did admit to a bit of rounding of the figures but that made no substantial difference.

"If talking about a polling result the majority wins. Those that are not enfranchised, could not crawl out of bed, or otherwise abstained, not surprisingly do not count."

Which is nothing to do with what I was talking about. The people you mention are part of the electorate AND part of the population. They are part of the latter along with the millions too young to vote. Clearly, the point that the non-enfranchised young are going to be the most affected for the longest is entirely lost on you.

"Perhaps the Shaw would like to extend the vote to a foetus, or sperm and eggs, or maybe even parrots that can talk."

Nope. Though when I heard some of those "send all the wogs back home" sentiments coming out of Peterborough on the telly the night before last, you do have wonder...

"A total nonsense of course, just like trying to include those that did not vote."

I didn't. I gave you the unarguable numbers of the electorate, the total population and the proportions of both who voted leave. No more, no less. No trying, no fudging, no making stuff up such as "the people have spoken," the mantra of the loony brexit brigade.

"The loony left is not so called frivolous reasons!"

A gibberish sentence but hey ho. Cue more misplaced, childish sarcasm and insults that are nothing to do with what I said...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 06:56 AM

"The loony left is not so called for frivolous reasons!"

There. Fixed it for you.

"Clearly, the point that the non-enfranchised young are going to be the most affected for the longest is entirely lost on you."
So obvious it hardly needs stating. and just what profound point is that supposed to make. Everything we do has the potential to impact on others, both present and future. Everything from casting a vote to polluting the air, as you drive to the supermarket, to buy cases of wine.


And a quiet bit of advice. If you wish to display the errors of others you may find young jimmies a more fruitful field. He has never knowingly completed a correct sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 07:49 AM

The profound point is that it was largely the votes of the elderly (look it up) that are propelling us out of the EU, the people like me with guaranteed state pensions paid at the traditional age, the people like me made prosperous by accident via several house-price booms and the people like me with gold-plated final salary pensions. People like me who are largely insulated from the future adverse effects of brexit. Among lots of other bad things, the brexit vote was a supremely selfish and ignorant one that is going to make the young people of today hate our generation for ever more. Still, I won't be worrying about that when I'm six feet under, so why should I care...

Well it wasn't me, guv...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 08:21 AM

Well aren't you the lucky one! What else would you care to boast about?
You have not the slightest idea what caused the electorate to vote the way they did in the referendum. Nor can you get your head around the fact that Labour have been very successful in the last three election polls - at losing!
No matter how much you claim the tories are detested, the sensible electorate detest Labour and Corbyn even more. In essence you support a party that is not going to win in the immediate future.
8 Sep 2018

A quick update on three new voting intention polls in the last day:

Survation for the Daily Mail have topline figures of CON 38%(+1), LAB 37%(-4), LDEM 10%(+4), UKIP 4%(+3). Fieldwork was done wholly on Friday, after the news of Boris Johnson’s seperation from his wife had broken and changes are from their poll earlier this week which had shown a four point Labour lead. The changes are from their poll at the start of the week that showed a four point Labour lead – obviously given the closeness of fieldwork those changes are more likely to be noise than a sudden surge in Lib Dem support within a matter of days! Full details are here.

BMG for the Independent have topline figures of CON 37%(nc), LAB 38%(-1), LDEM 11%(+1), UKIP 7%(+2). Fieldwork was Tuesday to Friday and the (insignificant) changes are from last month. Full tabs are here.

Finally YouGov‘s weekly poll for the Times had headline figures of CON 39%(nc), LAB 35%(-2), LDDEM 11%(+1), UKIP 5%(nc). Fieldwork was on Monday and Tuesday, and changes are from last week. Full tables are here.

All three polls obviously show Labour and Conservative relatively close. Worth noting is that all three have the Liberal Democrats sneaking up into double figures, something that does seem to be part of a wider trend of the Liberal Democrats very gradually starting to recover support.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 08:45 AM

Which has all got absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 08:46 AM

"You have not the slightest idea what caused the electorate to vote the way they did in the referendum"
REASON
PROOF
SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME

"In essence you support a party that is not going to win in the immediate future"
YEAH - SURE!!
Labour has come from the back to near the front in a few years and a deeply divided Government and the fiasco that is Brexit has guaranteed that will Continue
The only thing that cans ave the Tories is Trump sending in the Marines, not beyond the realms of possibility nowadays
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:29 AM

"Which has all got absolutely nothing to do with what I posted."

That must put me in exalted company then!

A party getting near the front is still behind and will lose. No matter how you wiah to dress it up.

Here is a little gem from Guido: You cannot even rely on sky news for accurate info.


https://order-order.com/2018/09/19/council-house-occupant-actually-labour-activist/

Despite the claims the biggest fall in housing completions occurred from 2007 until the middle of 2010. A rather precipitous fall, all on Labour's watch. But the graph shows the tories valiantly recovered the situation and got the newbuilds back on track

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:34 AM

Tell it to the Marines. You're just talking hope into yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:50 AM

I think marines are probably more interested in boats!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 01:28 PM

Was the person interviewed a council house tenant?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 02:32 PM

I suggest you refer your question to sky news. After all they reported it as such, and carefully omitted to mention her strong Labour affiliations.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 02:50 PM

He was a council house tenant so they told the truth. No issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 04:19 PM

He was a she. If you cannot tell the difference you should not be so argumentative.
The Issue was the claim "“housebuilding is down the biggest rate in 24 years”

You must be another from the abacus school of maths that cannot understand simple graphs
A side issue was the portrayal of a labour activist as a simple council house tenant. A tad disingenuous I would say.
And you are the only one making an issue of a virtual irrelevance while ignoring the main argument. I presume abacus maths go well with tunnel vision, thereby allowing sidestepping the obvious issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 05:44 PM

Sod the centre ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 02:31 AM

So, she was a council house tenant. The news report told the truth. If all you can come up with as an argument is typos I guess you have no decent argument. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:15 AM

S on a keyboard is a long way from H, very difficult to hit, even accidentally. More like inadequate research or lack of proof reading!
The news report was economical with the truth. As I said above, a combination of abacus maths and tunnel vision.
If you bothered to read and understand instead of arguing you would appreciate the lie was the claim that housebuilding was the lowest for 24 years.
In the attached link are some pretty pictures to illustrate the lie.
If you wish to colour them in you will have to find your colouring pencils.

https://fullfact.org/economy/house-building-england/

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:47 AM

On a tablet it is very easy to miss a letter such as the s altogether which makes she he. But you would rather pick holes in someone's typing than come up with a decent argument. The figures quoted are not the point I am making. The interviewee was a council tenant. It is a factually accurate verifiable statement so why question it? Unless you want to disprove that point, I'm done.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:57 AM

WHAT'S HAPPENING

WHAT WON'T HAPPEN IN BRITAIN

4 MILLION HOMES BACKLOG

1 IN EVERY 200 BRITISH PEOPLE HOMELESS SHELTER

Thatcher removed the rights to rented and affordable homes that Labour had introduced after the sacrifices of the war
The great contradiction of a society is that the a reasonable level of employment in an area will automatically drive up housing prices, so those i need of jobs cannot afford to to live in the ares where they are available
CATCH 22 WRIT LARGE

END RESULT

As Al says
"Sod the centre ground."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:59 AM

Sod Guido and his sheepish followers too
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:00 AM

It would also be a factually correct statement point out she was a labour activist, which would have changed the entire ethos of the interview. Instead a partial truth was given.
    This is obviously a little too "deep" for you to catch the nuances of. It was a prime example of Skynews being partisan in its political coverage.

But I suspect pointing out these subtleties is a wasted effort. None so blind.............?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:23 AM

Well done, Iains. You have seen the truth at last. Both are factually accurate statements but they give an entirely different picture. It is what your pin up boy does all the time. For every Paul Staines there is an Owen Jones. You cannot summon one without the other appearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:34 AM

Congratulations. I was wondering when you would bring up the usual distraction technique of shoving a few apples among the pears.
Quite what the author of "chavs" has to do with the argument escapes me.
Are you trying to make it a class   issue now?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:38 AM

No. Just left wing columnist vs right wing columnist. Both get their facts right. Neither give the entire picture. If you cannot see that there is little point in continuing.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:47 AM

A good blog showing how Staines and Jones are pitted against each other.

Guido Fawked - Owen Jones Smear Hypocrisy

Doesn't show your hero in a good light. But then again he doesn't really need any help with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 05:05 AM

But as the crux of the matter was a partisan presentation by skynews
your counter wafflings are an irrelevance.
I) They portrayed a labour activist as an 'umble council house tenant.
2) She gave totally wrong figures about housebuilding over the last 24 years.
3) The skynews presentation showed blatant political bias
4) The discerning viewer needs to be made aware of these shenanigans of the left.

Thankyou Guido.For telling it how it is

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:07 AM

The crux of this thread is the nonsense people are talking about reclaiming the centre ground. The introduction of a right wing blogger is the irrelevance. I am simply balancing the issue by pointing out any number of left wing bloggers could also be introduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:59 AM

nul points!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 07:14 AM

"The introduction of a right wing blogger is the irrelevance."
Then why respond to Iains Dave
The fact that neither he or Keith respond to anything anybody else says (aratyt from sneering at it) makes them both glorified bloggers answerable
It's probably a more accurate term than "trolls" to no-one
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 07:21 AM

There ain't no sanity clause....
And there ain't no centre ground...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 07:23 AM

I could, and often do, ask you the same question, Jim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM

"I could, and often do, ask you the same question, Jim :-)"
The answer lies with both of us then Dave
Let's keep reminding each other, and everybody else who allows these monologues to continue
Is there really any point responding to people who have developed ignoring what others into a stonewalling technique?
Buggered if I can see one

Yet another of May's staunch supporters have deserted to the other side by describing her Chequers plan as "Dead in the water"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 09:36 AM

"Is there really any point responding to people who have developed ignoring what others into a stonewalling technique?"

No. So why do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 09:43 AM

Good points both. I shall go back to ignoring them.

Prediction. Someone is bound to say that we are running from a fight. Not sure which one though.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:03 AM

Corbyn's aide Andrew Murray, a member of the Communist Party until his conversion to Labour in 2016 (!) says that MI5 is behind his not getting a Commons security pass, and leaking the fact that he is banned from Ukraine as a Putin stooge.

Tom Watson is not convinced.
Guardian,
"Asked whether he believed the intelligence services were seeking to undermine Labour, Watson said: “I’m assuming they don’t, but if Andrew Murray has more evidence then he should provide it.”
There was a notably ruder response from Ben Wallace, the security minister in the Home Office.
He tweeted: “Oh dear. Sorry to pop the vanity of your own self-importance Andrew but our spooks don’t waste their time pumping out stories to the Mail on Sunday about someone no one has ever heard of. They are too busy trying to stop terrorism & Russian assassination attempts.” "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/tom-watson-says-deep-state-claim-by-corbyn-aide-a-bit-john-le-carre

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM

"Prediction. Someone is bound to say that we are running from a fight. Not sure which one though."

Who gives a FF. Not me. Their only goal is to be destructive. Fuck 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:49 AM

It's amazing but not surprising that the hypocrite who posted just before you, John, is the first to complain if WE stray from what he regards as the topics of his threads. Anyone got any clue as to what that post has to do with the centre ground?

But it's my thread and I'm not bothered. I'm just saying, that's all...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:53 AM

More bountiful news from Guido. The man with the finger on the pulse.



https://order-order.com/2018/09/13/car-industry-announces-500m-green-brexit-boost/

While Jaguar Land Rover is busy playing politics over Brexit, the rest of the automobile industry is just getting on with expanding their businesses in the UK…

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 11:51 AM

The only place that onanist has a finger is on his glans penis.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 12:52 PM

TORIES ENCORAGE VOTERS TO VOTE UKIP

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Ukip is back thanks to the Chequers backlash
Theresa May’s approach to Brexit is providing the ideal conditions for the party’s revival
Matthew Goodwin

The UK Independence Party might be about to make a comeback. Ever since Theresa May’s Chequers deal on Brexit, which went down very badly indeed among grassroots Conservatives and Leavers, the opinion polls have been kind to the Purple Army.

The week after the Chequers deal went public, one pollster found support for the party had surged by five points to 8 per cent. It might not sound like much, but it is its best showing since March last year. Furthermore, such numbers are more than enough to tilt the balance at the next general election toward Jeremy Corbyn and Labour.

Indeed, it is no coincidence that as Ukip recovered in the polls, the Conservatives found themselves trailing Labour, with one survey handing Jeremy Corbyn a five-point lead — his second highest of the year (Corbyn only needs a two-point swing to get into coalition territory and a five-point swing for a majority). Amid a tight race with Labour, the Tories cannot afford a rebooted revolt on the right.

There are other signs that the self-anointed People’s Army might be about to come off life support. One insider tells me that the party has attracted 2,500 new members since Chequers and around 3,000 in total since the spring. Membership is still a long way from the peak of 40,000 recorded during 2014-2015, but with an estimated 23,000 recruits this still represents a sizeable rebellion to the right of the Conservatives.

More recent polls suggest that nearly 40 per cent of all voters would be open to supporting a new party that was firmly committed to Brexit (which surges to 67 per cent of Conservative voters), while 24 per cent would support an explicitly far-right, anti-immigrant and anti-Islamism party, which should sound a warning note. Ukip 2.0 may well be distinctly less cuddly than the original. It should also be remembered that today we are dealing with an electorate that is far more fluid and less tribal than in earlier years. The perfect cocktail to revive Ukip was never hard to find; start with a ‘BRINO’ (Brexit In Name Only), throw in a liberal immigration policy that looks and sounds a lot like freedom of movement, then add a splash of political denial in Westminster. It is therefore no surprise to find Ukip enjoying a renaissance as a radical right party.

None of this has escaped the attention of Nigel Farage, who stepped down as Ukip’s leader in July 2016 but who is clearly mulling a possible return to the ring. Farage has already committed himself to returning to frontline politics if Article 50 is suspended. But in recent days he went further by stating he would ‘very seriously consider’ putting his name forward to run as Ukip leader if the Chequers compromise is not broken and Brexit is not put ‘back on track’.

All of this flies in the face of earlier predictions that populism is dead in Britain. The argument that the 2016 Brexit referendum had finally put a lid on backlash politics was never a particularly convincing one. On the contrary, the emergence of an army of ‘betrayed Brexiteers’ always looked likely given the mismatch between the vision of Brexit held by many in Westminster and the much cleaner break from Europe favoured by grassroots conservatives.

A similarly flawed argument did the rounds in Brussels and went a bit like this: to show their opposition to the British, Europeans have turned their backs on anti-EU populist parties. Two years on and take a look around Europe: the populist Sweden Democrats (who want a Swexit) just reached no. 1 in the polls; the populist Alternative for Germany are no. 2; the populist Northern League and Five Star are running Italy; the populist Freedom Party is in a coalition in Austria; Slovenia has lurched right; and more than six in ten Hungarians are backing Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz or the formerly neo-fascist Jobbik. If this is a Europe where populism is in full retreat, then I would hate to see the alternative.

Back in Britain, several tributaries now seem to be flowing toward Ukip, or at least the space previously occupied by the party. The largest comprises angry Eurosceptics and grassroots social conservatives who feel betrayed by Brexit. Consider their reaction to the current state of affairs: 76 per cent of Leavers feel that the Prime Minister’s government is negotiating Brexit ‘badly’; 66 per cent believe her vision of Brexit is ‘too soft’; nearly 60 per cent think that the Chequers deal disrespects the referendum result; and half want Mrs May to resign. In fact, among all voters, the Prime Minister’s leadership ratings this week sunk to a record low, while among Leavers her net positive rating has crashed from +10 to -23 in only two months.

These numbers are dismal for a Prime Minister who sought to speak for social conservatives in a way that David Cameron did not. But they are also especially problematic for a Conservative party that since the 2016 referendum has become more dependent on the groups that voted for Brexit; the working-class, true-blue Tories, and non–graduates, many of whom had also voted Ukip in the past. Put simply, this is a profoundly different electorate from that which supported Cameron in 2015 — it is more pro-‘hard’ Brexit, more opposed to immigration and more socially conservative. Some 70 per cent of Tory voters now regard themselves as Leavers. The problem for the Prime Minister and indeed the Tory party is not simply that their voters are disgruntled with the direction of Brexit but that it is precisely those voters who have a pre-existing relationship with Ukip who feel so angry.

But it would be a mistake to view Ukip’s recent recovery solely as a result of the Tory fallout. Also important is how a handful of prominent right-wing social media activists, who typically eschew party politics, have called on their (hundreds of thousands) of followers to enrol in Ukip. Paul Joseph Watson might be an unfamiliar name to readers but he has amassed around 882,000 followers on Twitter by attacking political correctness, Islam, refugees, identity liberalism and what he and his audience argue is excessive virtue signalling across the West.

Figures such as Watson, as well as Raheem Kassam — Nigel Farage’s former chief of staff and a close ally of Steve Bannon — are linked to an increasingly international campaign to support the jailed Tommy Robinson, ex-leader of the English Defence League. His supporters argue that he has been silenced from reporting on ‘grooming gangs’ and other Islam-related topics due to political correctness and a clampdown on free speech (Robinson was actually imprisoned for contempt of court.)

Unlike the Ukip of old, the party’s current leader, Gerard Batten, has been more than willing to enter this orbit in the search for new members and resources, developing links with the pro-Robinson campaign and other groups such as the Democratic Football Lads Alliance. Batten shares many of their views, having variously referred to Islam as a ‘death cult’, described Muhammad as a ‘paedophile’ and warned of an ‘explosion’ of mosques across Europe. To these tributaries we can also add blue-collar workers in more northern Labour seats who loathe the social liberalism and internationalism of their mainly middle-class MPs, and who are looking for meaningful reform on the issue of freedom of movement.

This is a long way away from the climate to which Ukip had become accustomed after the Brexit vote. In the shadow of the Brexiteers’ historic triumph, the party seemed destined for the political graveyard. It took two decades to find political relevance — and less than two years to stage a dramatic collapse. It shed members, money and morale, as well as Farage, who traded politics for media. Ukip also whittled through three leaders, each as ineffectual as the last. Diane James, Paul Nuttall and Henry Bolton each proved unable to halt what looked set to be an inevitable decline. Between the 2015 and 2017 general elections, the party haemorrhaged 3.2 million voters and saw its vote share crash by more than ten points to a derisory 1.8 per cent. Further humiliation followed at this year’s local elections when Ukip did not even qualify for an election broadcast and lost all but three of the 126 seats it was defending, prompting one Kipper to compare his party to the Black Death.

But amid the favourable turn of events, Ukip also finds itself faced with some big questions. The most obvious is whether the party can exploit the current openings. Some insiders openly voice doubts about Batten, including his willingness to indulge toxic groups that would alienate the much larger audience of middle-class conservatives. Explaining the markedly different fortunes of the far-right BNP with the pre-2016 Ukip would not be a difficult essay question to answer. Some also voice anxiety over Batten’s reluctance to engage wholeheartedly with the media.

Another problem is that not everybody in Ukip Land would necessarily welcome the return of Farage. Some influential activists feel that their former leader vacated the pitch at a crucial moment and has since spent more time on the search for media exposure and money than on the battle for Brexit. In the words of one insider: ‘Nigel just assumes that he can walk back in now things are looking good. But he’s spent the past few years slagging off the party, has pissed off a lot of people and also threw his weight behind a series of weak leaders. Batten is the only one who has stabilised us.’ There is also frustration among some senior Kippers that Farage has not fully put his support behind the party: ‘Batten can do things that Nigel cannot, like organise shit at the grassroots level. Nobody is pretending Gerard is a media performer like Nigel, but the thing that grates for a lot of people is that Nigel is not even using his platforms to tell people to join Ukip.’

Meanwhile, some donors are anxious to avoid the return of the divisive Arron Banks, a close ally of Farage, and have let it be known they would withdraw their funding if the old gang were once again to dominate the party. So, while there is unquestionably new demand for a Ukip-style party, the question is whether Ukip as it stands can supply this audience with a unified message and membership — and whether Farage is capable of leading it.

One of the unwritten laws in politics is that challenger parties don’t last long. Either their clothes are stolen by the mainstream, they implode amid infighting, or the political debate simply moves on. It was their short lifespan that led the historian Richard Hofstadter to observe more than half a century ago that challengers are like bees: once they have stung, they die. But in Britain this unwritten law could be about to be tested. Things are looking up for Ukip — it may well be that it is more of a wasp than a bee, and could yet deliver further stings to Britain’s increasingly volatile political system.

S

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:02 PM

That would be Jaguar/Land Rover who announced twwo days ago that they were cutting production post Brexit? A three day week was mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:08 PM

As you obviously love the man, here is another gem:


https://order-order.com/2018/09/20/alistair-campbell-torpedoed-bbc-fact-check/

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM

I saw that this afternoon Iains. Campbell took it rather well I thought. Just for a second the spinning stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:28 PM

Stanron.The problem is who to believe? The number for leave and remain are gyrating back and forth like yo-yos, if the polls are to be believed.
It seems to depend on who can create the best/worst news on any day.
To me this would indicate that should a rerun occur, the result would be broadly the same. The downside would be a bitter campaign and an even more fractured society. Also for such treachery to occur, the clock is fast running down.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:43 PM

Did you see the program? I thought it was quite good. Politics Live has replaced the old Daily Politics. On Monday I thought I was watching 'Loose Women Do A Bit OF Politics' except that Loose Women always has a token man on the program. Jacob Rees Mogg had some interesting points on Parliamentary procedure if the Chequers plan is defeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 02:23 PM

No I did not, only the clip embedded. I think political programs have lost a lot of ground since the days of the bowtied rotweiler Robin Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:21 PM

"The number for leave and remain are gyrating back and forth like yo-yos, if the polls are to be believed."

What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to. Then I won't go around thinking that you make things up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:56 AM

Don't encourage him Steve:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:57 AM

Steve,
Anyone got any clue as to what that post has to do with the centre ground?

It shows how far Labour is lurching to the Far Left, opening their doors not just to people from the Momentum movement but even to members of a rival party of the hardest Left, the Communist Party.

Also this has already been discussed on this thread with you Lefties claiming there was no substance and that such clearance delays were commonplace. The Guardian was quoted in support.
You and the Guardian are now shown to have been wrong.
OK Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:43 AM

What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to.

Bossy little fellow are you not?

You know what they say: to can lead a horse to water................

Here is a little challenge for you. Go find the required data and then construct the links.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:52 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to. Then I won't go around thinking that you make things up as you go along.

Steve. As part of the BBC's new 'Politics Live' format they had someone in the studio checking a range of polls to see whether Alister Campbell's assertion that there was a swing towards a peoples vote was correct. He found that while some polls supported it, an equal number did not. So he could not say definitely that the assertion was correct. It'll be on BBCI player but as a warning it was presented by Andrew Neil and I seem to remember that you are not a fan.