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Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?

GUEST,Tunesmith 14 Sep 18 - 06:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 06:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 06:37 AM
Will Fly 14 Sep 18 - 06:56 AM
gillymor 14 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Sep 18 - 07:05 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,akenaton 14 Sep 18 - 07:26 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,akenaton 14 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 07:41 AM
GUEST 14 Sep 18 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Sep 18 - 07:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Sep 18 - 07:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,akenaton 14 Sep 18 - 08:17 AM
Senoufou 14 Sep 18 - 08:23 AM
Nick 14 Sep 18 - 09:52 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 10:00 AM
Gordon Jackson 14 Sep 18 - 10:01 AM
gillymor 14 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 14 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM
gillymor 14 Sep 18 - 11:15 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 11:17 AM
GUEST 14 Sep 18 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 14 Sep 18 - 11:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,akenaton 14 Sep 18 - 11:41 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 11:42 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Sep 18 - 11:43 AM
Gordon Jackson 14 Sep 18 - 11:47 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 11:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 12:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 12:34 PM
The Sandman 14 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 01:03 PM
Doug Chadwick 14 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Sep 18 - 01:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 01:38 PM
Gordon Jackson 14 Sep 18 - 01:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Sep 18 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 14 Sep 18 - 01:59 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 02:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 02:22 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,gillymor 14 Sep 18 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Observer 14 Sep 18 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Observer 14 Sep 18 - 03:10 PM
Jeri 14 Sep 18 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,akenaton 14 Sep 18 - 03:21 PM
GUEST 14 Sep 18 - 03:25 PM
meself 14 Sep 18 - 03:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 18 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Sep 18 - 05:37 PM
Joe_F 14 Sep 18 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Observer 14 Sep 18 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 14 Sep 18 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,ripov 14 Sep 18 - 08:18 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 18 - 08:23 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Sep 18 - 09:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Sep 18 - 02:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Sep 18 - 02:24 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Sep 18 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 15 Sep 18 - 04:43 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 18 - 04:55 AM
Will Fly 15 Sep 18 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Sep 18 - 05:31 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Sep 18 - 05:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Sep 18 - 05:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 15 Sep 18 - 06:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 06:14 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Sep 18 - 06:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 06:51 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Sep 18 - 07:21 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 07:37 AM
Will Fly 15 Sep 18 - 08:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 08:10 AM
doc.tom 15 Sep 18 - 08:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 08:32 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 08:32 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,Jerry 15 Sep 18 - 11:37 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 11:46 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Sep 18 - 12:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 18 - 12:52 PM
Joe Offer 15 Sep 18 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Ebor Fiddler 16 Sep 18 - 09:18 PM
Stanron 16 Sep 18 - 11:55 PM
The Sandman 17 Sep 18 - 03:17 AM
KarenH 17 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Richard Robinson 17 Sep 18 - 07:41 AM
Allan Conn 17 Sep 18 - 07:52 AM
gillymor 17 Sep 18 - 08:09 AM
Will Fly 17 Sep 18 - 11:50 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Sep 18 - 12:01 PM
Will Fly 17 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM
gillymor 17 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM
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Subject: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:09 AM

I wonder if any of the popular music of the last 100yrs will survive in the general consciousness of music lovers for any length of time. For example, Bach has been dead for over 250yrs but is still well known; however, I would suggest that someone like Louis Armstrong - the first great improvisor in jazz history - is rapidly drifting further and further from the general consciousness.
    And, if we go back into the 19th century, how many popular musician and composer are still, even reasonably, well known ? Arthur Sullivan springs to mind and Stephen Foster?
    “Classical” composers and musicians names will be kept alive in colleges by music professors and genuine - and not so genuine - concert goers but who will keep the popular musician names alive?
      The continued fame of popular musicians is very much tied to the music industry and the making of money.
The last 100yrs is filled with artists who were once massively popular but are now just fading memories in the minds of old folk.
    100yrs from now, The Beatles, will more likely to be remembered as a cultural phenomenon rather than for their music.
    Of course, I’ve know doubt that, in the future, some popular artists from the past will - from time to time - be “rediscovered” like Scott Joplin was in the 1970s.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:34 AM

You are not comparing like with like. Bach is remembered for the music he wrote. Louis Armstrong is remembered for the music he played. Performers will eventually drift out of the public eye but good written music will be forever performed by others. By that measure the Beatles could well be remembered as a phenomenon but 'Yesterday' could still be the most covered song ever :-)


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:37 AM

To bring it round to folk music, does anyone remember who originally wrote and performed 'The Wild Rover'? No. Will people still be performing it in 100 years? Yes.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:56 AM

Aha - we've already split the question into three... :-)

1. Composers
2. Performers
3. Songs

I'll get me coat!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM

I'm still trying to figure out who put the ram in the ramma lamma ding dong.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:05 AM

"Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?"


we'll never know...

so make the most of it and enjoy it while you can...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:21 AM

Nowt much to do with it, but a few days ago, at Pencarrow House in Cornwall, I saw the actual piano on which Sullivan composed Iolanthe.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:26 AM

Yesterday may be the most covered song? but Mc Cartney or Lennon did not have the songwriting skills of myriad American writers like Porter, Berlin, Lerner, not to mention the great contemporary writers like Simon, Goodman, Chapin/Carpenter, Prime, Mitchell and dozens more.
The Beatles stuff though popular is mundane and lacking in depth, even "Imagine" is a simple anti war dirge when stripped down.
Ray Davis is undoubtedly a superior songwriter, even if he has not produced in the quantity of M and L and there are plenty of excellent writers in the contemporary idiom here in the UK. Unfortunately their talents are seldom recognised Pete Bond being a good example.
Gerry Rafferty could have knocked Mr McCartney into top hat.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:32 AM

Sounds like a teenage rant in a fanzine.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM

I wouldn't know, I never read "fanzines?"


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:41 AM

I think it was the same person as put the bop in the bop-sho-wop-sho-wop.

Will, you make a good point that set me thinking. There are indeed 3 elephants in the equation. Trad music will only ever be remembered for itself as no one now knows the composer BUT some performances may be remembered separately and I will come back (Bach?) to that. The composers of classical AND classic (in the newer sense) music will be remembered for their music. Performers and performances were not remembered before because, by nature, they were transient. However, and this is where I was going, performers are now remembered because they have been captured in a myriad of ways and a record of their performances will be there forever.

Let's take, for instance, Bohemian Rhapsody. Not becuase it is a particular favourite (although it is) but because it could now encapsulate all 3. It is a classic song that people will remember. It was written by Freddie Mercury, who will be remembered as a composer and now Freddie's performances have been encapsulated on various media forever. He will be remembered as the master performer he was well beyond the 100 years specified. Worth considering?

Will - This thread with you in it set me to thinking about something else. PM on its way.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:50 AM

Bohemian Rhapsody is a performance piece rather than a well constructed song.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:59 AM

A few ideas:

1 If what we are told is true, then many of the songs now regarded as 'folk' began life as 'popular music' and have lasted, albeit sometimes via deliberate 'revivals'


2 I don't think Armstrong will be forgotten: they study the origins of jazz on academic courses just like classical music is studied, so his influence remains even if this is a minority interest genre.


3 Changes such as the Internet have maybe altered the way we access music from the past, eg early jazz and blues which might have been forgotten. So things will work differently in the future from the way they did in the past.


4 While we are in 'who put the **** in ***'mode, may I be the first to mention Scunthorpe?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:59 AM

I'll always remember Bohemian Rhapsody..

I had a memorably passionate snog with a girl i fancied
throughout it's entire duration at the 1975 xmas college Disco...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 08:00 AM

Gerry Rafferty could have knocked Mr McCartney into top hat.

Much as I love Rafferty's work, I wonder why he didn't then? :-)

But I do not believe this thread was meant to be a platform for those who no longer have access to the confrontation below the line. I think it is a genuine question and worth investigating seriously without rancour. Let's keep it that way.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 08:17 AM

Tell your friends to keep it it that way and keep your opinions of me to yourself.

The birth of a song that will never die    There are many more "The street where you live" being another example.
They are well constructed and have great emotional content....


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 08:23 AM

Regarding Bohemian Rhapsody, has anyone seen that ghastly John Lewis ad (it may be their Crimbo offering, though it's a bit early for that!)
Children rendering the song with a load of space-themed props on a school stage. It makes me cringe. Thank the Lord for the remote control and the mute button.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Nick
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 09:52 AM

>>4 While we are in 'who put the **** in ***'mode, may I be the first to mention Scunthorpe?

Would that be the National Trust or the hammer-wielding god?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 10:00 AM

Woody Guthrie, a man who knew what a good song is:

I hate a song that makes you think that you are not any good. I hate a song that makes you think that you are just born to lose. Bound to lose. No good to nobody. No good for nothing. Because you are too old or too young or too fat or too slim too ugly or too this or too that. Songs that run you down or poke fun at you on account of your bad luck or hard traveling. … I am out to fight those songs to my very last breath of air and my last drop of blood.
I am out to sing songs that will prove to you that this is your world and that if it has hit you pretty hard and knocked you for a dozen loops, no matter what color, what size you are, how you are built, I am out to sing the songs that make you take pride in yourself and in your work.
And the songs that I sing are made up for the most part by all sorts of folks just about like you. I could hire out to the other side, the big money side, and get several dollars every week just to quit singing my own kind of songs and to sing the kind that knock you down still farther and the ones that poke fun at you even more and the ones that make you think you've not any sense at all. But I decided a long time ago that I'd starve to death before I'd sing any such songs as that. The radio waves and your movies and your jukeboxes and your songbooks are already loaded down and running over with such no good songs as that anyhow.


Woody hated God Bless America and he wrote This Land Is Your Land as a riposte. His original working title was God Blessed America. I'm pretty sure that the above quote was referring to songs such as that and Smoke Gets In Your Eyes and Street Where You Live. I think I'll take his word for it.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 10:01 AM

Someone needs to spell out the obvious: there is no objective 'best'; only subjective favourites.

My favourite songwriters are Richard Thompson, Steve Earle and Sandy Denny. None of them have been mentioned by anyone else, and why should they be - they are my favourites? Others prefer Ray Davies (who I think is brilliant), L&M, Gerry Rafferty and Freddie Mercury. Great, it can be interesting to see who others like, but it still doesn’t make any of them the best.

As for being remembered, who will tell us?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM

What's going to fill the void? Unpopular Music?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM

gillymor, you are not paying attention!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:15 AM

Just don't rap me cross the knuckles with your ruler, Sister.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:17 AM

I like all yours, Gordon. Not everything by all of 'em by a long chalk, but good stuff there.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:27 AM

That's just your opinion ;)


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:40 AM

"Gerry Rafferty could have knocked Mr McCartney into a cocked hat"
"Why didn't he then?"   Well for a start McCartney was a Beatle and Beatlemania sold any shite, trinkets magazines clothing and records.
Also Gerry's fatal flaw, he thought he was a producer. Almost every song was over-produced and choked with sinths. It worked on Baker Street but ruined many better songs, such as my particular favourite "The right moment"
I knew Gerry when his only accompaniment was his old acoustic and the admiration of the big yin.
That was contemporary music at its very best.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:40 AM

I can't make up my mind which is best song between the birdie song, agadoo and viva espana


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:41 AM

Apologies, the last guest was I.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:42 AM

If I say I like something, it means I'm saying that I personally like it and am in no way saying that it's intrinsically good or that you should like it. Therefore it's an expressed opinion. I happen to like big troughs of cheap jelly with a big dollop of butterscotch Angel Delight on the side too. Preferably with hundreds and thousands sprinkled liberally on top.

Unless you're Dave who accidentally didn't log in, in which case ha ha.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:43 AM

birdie song and agadoo joint best - too narrow to decide...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:47 AM

For me RT's and Sandy's work ranges from the sublime to the awful, with the sublime making up for the awful. Steve's songs, on the other hand, seem top class all through. My least favourite, Galway Girl, is still a decent song; can't say what my favourite is though, because there are just too many: Jerusalem, Have Mercy, The Week of Living Dangerously, Tom Ame's Prayer, The Unrepentant ...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:48 AM

Don't wanna start a fight, but it's a tossup between Ging Gang Goolie and Kumbaya...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 12:31 PM

And don't even mention fields of athenfuckinry...

We now may have a fourth elephant. Production! Who will remember Phil Spector or George Martin? Yet they had a massive influence on the music. As Ake pointed out, Rafferty was shit at production so he did not make it as big as the Beatles who had the sense to stick with the right producer. Every facet of music seems to be important. As Jan Akerrman once said,


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 12:34 PM

... I feel like a clog in something turning.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

i hope it is


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:03 PM

Why is that, Dick? Surely you don't want a society that cannot listen to music that is popular?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM

.....genuine - and not so genuine - concert goers .....

What is a non-genuine concert goer?
   Someone who buys a ticket but doesn't turn up?
   Someone who sneaks in to listen without buying a ticket?
   Someone who sits with their fingers in their ears and refuses to listen?

DC


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:35 PM

"i hope it is"

folk music is like a flea bite on the arse of popular music


Let's keep things in perspective...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:38 PM

I once went in a restaurant, paid for a meal and then ran out without eating it. Wonder if it is something like that?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:50 PM

Funny, I once ate a meal, then ran into a restaurant and paid for it.

I'm a non-genuine restaurant goer.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:55 PM

total thread drift...

Me and the mrs were in an affordable indian restaurant in central london
when a fat bloke on a table near the door decided to do a runner..

remember he was a fat bloke...

the waiter easily caught him by the leg,
dragging him back into the restaurant..
and in the ensuing farcical struggle fat bill dodger's trousers and pants were pulled down...

hilarious, but not a sight to relish whilst eating....

there may have been some popular indian music on the restaurant background sound system...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:59 PM

I think " Her Father Didn't Like Me Anyway" is a terrific song by Gerry Rafferty. When this song emerged, I remember thinking that it was such a clever idea for a song that I was amazed that Dylan, or some other top songwriter, hadn't thought of it before.
BTW, I saw The Humblebums ( Gerry and Billy ) supporting Fotheringay at the Free Trade Hall Manchester in the 70s, and amazingly, I felt they suffered from lack of projection and failed to strike any rapport with the audience.

Terrific Rafferty song


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 02:00 PM

The most dramatic event of the year last year was when the chef chased a man out of the Indian in Bude along Burn View wielding a meat cleaver. It ended without bloodshed and nobody got done. We know how to do drama in Bude.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 02:22 PM

My mate Chris jumped out of the window of an Indian place expecting to land on the flat roof below. The flat roof ended about 6 feet short of the window, he fell 2 floors and broke both his heels. He said he hid under a bench and so got away with it. Was it worth 2 months on crutches for a vindaloo and pilau rice? I think not :-)

Not thread drift. Popular culture!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 02:58 PM

Pop-padom music! Naan-a Mouskouri! Abbey Road: You never give me your pilau! Lovely Raita Meter Maid!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:03 PM

Curry that Weight


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:05 PM

With regard to the question asked in the thread title - Of course it is doomed to oblivion, that is the transient nature of the commercial beast that is "pop" music.

By the way DtG why was your mate Chris wearing heels?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:10 PM

Forgot to add, two things that really are about as low as you can go:

1. Spiking or adulterating anyone's drink

2. Welcher's, like your mate Chris, who run out of places to avoid payment - nine times out of ten the poor waiter or waitress has to make good on it.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:19 PM

Folk music is pop music that proved to be not so transitory.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:21 PM

You're right Tunesmith, Billy and Gerry were a mismatch.
Billy was in awe of Gerry's talent, and Gerry didn't have the charisma/ego to carry the duo. Lack of projection is correct, yet when Billy and Tam Harvey worked together, they had all the projection in the world. the audiences loved them.

"Her father didn't like me anyway" is indeed a great song and Gerry singing it live would break your heart, but on the recording from the Humblebums LP, you can hear the backing becoming obtrusive....annoyingly so, to someone who has heard the live solo version. I don't think Gerry wrote many poor songs, most could stand against anyone poetically and musically, but the perfectionist in Gerry was never still...to the detriment of a lot of his output.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:25 PM

Jeri, quite a lot of the pop which has been produced in the last few decades is superior to the eminently forgettable "folk music" we are presented with today.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: meself
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:47 PM

Depends what you mean by 'remembered'. There will be specialists and eccentrics who will 'remember' bits and pieces of anything and everything - as for the great mass of humanity, they will remember the music that was around them when they were sixteen, and what they heard a day previous. There is no reason to think much of what we get all excited about today will be remembered by anyone in a hundred years, other than the odd bored robot shoved in a back room somewhere.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:24 PM

I agree, observer. He is an ex-mate.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:37 PM

I'm thinking that jazz is regarded as important to an extent where it will be a long time before the contribution of Armstrong gets forgotten.

I think the same will be true of early blues.

Young musicians/singers (ie under 40) do look at some popular music of the past for inspiration both in terms of songs to sing and styles to learn and play. Example that springs to mind, the song 'Fever', I saw somebody under 30 play and sing a version the other day.

I think some of us passed on our likes to our kids, who knows whether they will pass it on to theirs in turn.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:45 PM

The very notion of "popular music" is an artifact of an obsolescent state of technology. If the Web survives (conceivable) and most people use it in a self-respecting manner (less likely), there may eventually be no large audiences -- only many small overlapping ones.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:49 PM

Jeri, Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:19 PM. Nope ask Jim Carroll he will explain it to you.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:02 PM

We have four children whose ages range from 38 to 23. All of them are great fans of the music of the Beatles. They didn't discover it at the same time they each came to it at different stages of their lives. There wasn't much Beatles stuff played at home ( though I was a massive fan in my younger days), there was much more folk stuff. My children and many of their friends are also very well acquainted with the likes of the Stones, the Who, the Kinks, Donovan, Lou Reed, Pink Floyd etc. They know this stuff better than I do!

I was talking to a lad of 23 the other day who told me which Donovan albums he preferred. I didn't know any of them, I just knew the singles.

If you really want to get an idea of which popular music is going to last, don't go on your own preferences and prejudices, ask the people who are listening to and interested in music that was produced 30-40-50 years before they were born and they are many!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 08:18 PM

I doubt the one in Scunthorpe does much harm. It's the ones in Westminster that I worry about.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 08:23 PM

Good grief, Captain, I can echo that! Though I have just the two, aged 39 and 37. They both love the Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Who, etc. It can't be just the two of us!

Though I'm exceptionally chuffed to say that, along with their dad, they have no time for Dylan. Nowt to do wi' me, natch!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 09:52 PM

So among the tastes we personally have passed on to our kids are

a) The Beatles
b) The Pogues
c) Clapton Unplugged, which vanished one day only to be found in the bedroom of a sprog who had steadfastly denied ever having heard it..

I remember having to get out an old LP to prove to an offspring that the song Satisfaction was not written by Britney Spears.

What other tastes have people passed on? And .. have they or will they admit to having learned to like anything from their kids? (Admitting to the odd Nirvana song, here.)


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 02:22 AM

You can add me to the list of people who's kids like the old stuff. Some of them even like folk music! :-) I think some of the stuff from the 60s and 70s was pretty dire but the good stuff is pretty timeless and has stood the test of time. I am sure that music from every age is the same but the decades I mention are the ones I remember most fondly. Old git that I am :-)


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 02:24 AM

While I am in nostalgia mode, no one has mentioned the Move or the Small Faces yet. Just to start more arguments... :-)


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 04:19 AM

A hundred years or more ago, the music halls provided much of our popular music. Even today, many people can sing along to the chorus of a good number of these though few know the verses. I suspect that not many know more than a handful of performers and most know hardly any of the songwriters. In time there will be a few knowledgeable people who will present full versions of the songs as folk music.

So it is with today's pop music. Most of it will disappear but a few will remain in our collective subconscious.


DC


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 04:43 AM

But, all these children who know artists from the 60s, can they name one hit record by Benny Goodman, and, apart from White Christmas, can they name a Big Crosby hit? Probably not, and Goodman and Crosby were massive in their day.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 04:55 AM

Well Benny Goodman isn't really pop genre as such, and Crosby is infinitely forgettable! ;-)

Add the Pogues to our multigenerational family obsession too. I reckon that a good handful of Shane's songs deserve to live forever...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:24 AM

In the Benny Goodman prime era, he was, I would say, the equivalent of a pop idol - "pop" not being a term used in those days - and, as Tunesmith says, a massively popular music star. His small group stuff with Charlie Christian is still stunningly good (I have, of course, to say In My Opinion), and "Air Mail Special", "Waiting For Benny", "Gone With What Wind", etc., are tunes I play regularly. His Carnegie Hall concert sold out immediately, and the kids screamed!

I never cared for Crosby particularly, but he was hugely popular in the UK after the war, having a regular slot on the BBC Light Programme - signature tune "When The Blue Of The Night Meets The Gold Of The Day". His classic recording of "Brother Can You Spare A Dime" still reverberates today.

I suppose as long as there are old farts with longer memories, like me, that music will still be "around", but not to my son, who's in his 40s. HIS popular music was mixing, and he still has his decks...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:31 AM

Agreed on Small Faces being Ace, but lacking CDs by them, it is not a taste passed on in this family.

On Kinks, 'Dead End Street' is still being sung.

Wouldn't care if I never heard Come on Eileen ever again, though.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:43 AM

I have sung a Bing Crosby song in both folk clubs and at festivals. "Brother Can You Spare a Dime", written for a stage show, was a hit for both Crosby and Rudy Vallee. Wikipedia gives the genre as American pop.

As a song about the Great Depression era, I consider it eminently suitable.

DC


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:55 AM

Let me know if you want some Small Faces stuff Pseudonymous. I don't have much but could share some if you like. I think I have a compilation and, maybe, one other album.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:57 AM

So far I've not caught up with this thread beyond "the Move or the Small Faces"

Two of my absolutely favourite bands and most important formative musical influences since I was about 12 in 1971...

Bearing in mind that to a 12 year old in 1971 these bands were obscure old fashioned music from a byegone era...

If it hadn't been for Woolworths and cheap MFP LPs...

[though in fairness, Radio one also occasionally played such golden oldies...]

..and the Small Faces eventually became a crucial influence
on teen punk rockers sick of over complex pompous pretentious prog rock...


now to go back and read the rest of this thread...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 06:13 AM

It might surprise many just how much aged pop music is taught and played in secondary schools these days. We have been to many concerts over the years that featured various styles of pop music dating back through the 70s, 60s, 50s, 40s and further. The students don't just leave this stuff at school many go on to form their own bands and make the most of their background knowledge. One of my daughters plays a song called "Why don't you do right?" which I had never heard before. She told me it was a Peggy Lee song ..... don't know where she got it from, I assume it was the school band.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 06:14 AM

Caught up now...

I own nearly every Move and Small Faces tracks on LPs and CDs [and the odd cassette]..

Apart from stuff selfishly horded by the meanest of bootleg collectors..
and some Move alternative tracks released on MP3 for a very short time..

I'd hoped they'd end up on CD so missed them...

I got into the Move before I did the Beatles..

Beatles Reissue compilation LPS [Blue & Red double Albums]
were full price and out of range of pocket money..

so still have more of an emotional imprinted bond to Roy Wood than L & M...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 06:20 AM

punkfolkrocker - do you have the stereo version of Please Please Me LP with vocals in the middle?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 06:51 AM

Bonz - Don't know - was that CD or Vinyl..
Do you know exactly which one you seek...????

But every [I do mean every] Beatle LP and CD, even the most obscure international presses,
has been [is still...???] up on the internet in flac...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 07:21 AM

That's where I got it, apparently mixed by one of George Martin's sidekicks!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 07:37 AM

There were some recent Beatle compilation CD releases remixed by Martin's son..
Beefed up to sound more like more contemporary rock music.

Heftier bass, and more acceptable stereo imaging...
I bought 'em and liked 'em..
might it be off one of those...???

Possibly Beatles "1+"...???

Though I'm not a beatle fanatic trainspotter, and might be wrong..


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 08:03 AM

The Beatles album re-mix by George Martin, assisted by his son, was a mashh-up called "Love", and brought out some of the more obscure details of their work - particularly Ringo's drumming and their backing harmonies.

To get the best from it, you have to play every track in turn, continuously, as they merge imperceptibly from one to another.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 08:10 AM

Will - there was also a 1999 CD "Yellow Submarine Songtrack"

which I only bought and heard last year...

Sounds terrific in good headphones...


Also I'm fairly certain some Beatle tracks were remixed for a computer game,
that one with the tacky guitar shape game controller..

I'm sure they leaked to the fan download sites..


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: doc.tom
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 08:20 AM

First define 'Popular Music'.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 08:32 AM

"First define 'Popular Music'."

Just about anything fanatical trad folkies are clueless about and can't stand........


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 08:32 AM

"First define 'Popular Music'."

Just about anything fanatical trad folkies are clueless about and can't stand........


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 08:33 AM

welll... I thought I only pressed 'submit' once...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 11:37 AM

If you look at the top 40 popular songs of 100 years ago, several are still known to us (Dark Town Strutters Ball), but others such as the wonderfully titled Your Lips are No Man’s Land But Mine seemed to have got forgotten. However, 1918 was a memorable year of corse.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 11:46 AM

But remember...

Far away space aliens are now picking up our radio broadcasts
from back when all radios ran off steam and were not even in black and white...


Those songs may be warding off invasion for the time being...

We need to worry when they eventually hear how sublime Patsy Cline was...


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 12:24 PM

punfolkrocker - it's the Dr Ebbetts remix of Please Please Me which has centre vocals, much easier on the ear. The sessions for this album make interesting listening, these contain some of the most hideous guitar solos from George!!!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 12:52 PM

I might have 'obtained' that about 10 years ago...
But haven't a clue which hard drive it'd be on..
or even if it would still power up and spin...???

There were some great music fan's sites back then...

I do remember the Purple Chick Beatles [and Buddy Holly] discogs,
I had them somewhere as well...

Could the track be in amongst that lot...???

Info only, no downloads...

http://www.webgrafikk.com/beatles1/pc/html/deluxe.html


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 04:58 PM

The music of the last century is recorded, so we have the advantage of good-quality recordings of many wonderful performers. I think a surprising number of 20th-century recordings will still be considered "classics" a hundred years from now. Look at the current popularity of many recordings from the 1940s to the 1970s.
It's hard to believe, but 1968 was 50 years ago.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:18 PM

I believe in The Grateful Dead - but why did we generally not hear of them here in the UK?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 11:55 PM

Bearing in mind the sheer quantity of popular music produced and offered to the public in the last fifty to one hundred years, it's hardly surprising that most of it will be 'Doomed to oblivion'. Cream rises to the surface and it is not surprising that a proportion of our past popular music will persist. Am I being cheeky in suggesting that this persisting minority may become the 'Folk Music' of the future?


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:17 AM

well it is unlikely to evolve lyric wise , so it wil have some difficulty being folk music ,an exception being when it is altered by football crowds , however that does not necessarily mean that its alteration improves its quality


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: KarenH
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM

Some of us heard of the Grateful Dead in the UK. I saw them once but remember nothing at all about it. Song Scarlet Begonias and LP From Mars Hotel sticks in my mind. Bit overrated I think now.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: GUEST,Richard Robinson
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 07:41 AM

A bit late to the party, couple of random thoughts ...

Benny Goodman - what about his work with Bartok, will that be remembered ?

The Grateful Dead (aka the Dreadful Great) - "bit over-rated" and "why were they not generally heard of ?". When they were good, they were very very good, but when they were bad they were horrid. They had some really good songs (ie, I liked them) and a lot of bad ones (ie, I didn't) - some of them would stand remembering, and could be played by other people, would work as songs in their own right, but songs are 2-a-penny, there's a lot of competition. If they deserve to be remembered, it would be for their long instrumental episodes, which are *chewy* and tend to take them out of the "popular" category. They take a lot of listening to. Generally, it was a band that needed patience and a fairly high level of interest to get much out of.

Recording. Paper is not the only artificial memory any longer. This changes things.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 07:52 AM

In the scheme of things 100 years isn't really all that long. The early rock'n'roll records are already over 60 years old and 50 years ago the 60s was well the way through. My kids like older stuff too. My son's 18th seemed to be lots of jazz being played with lots of Little Richard etc thrown in. The other kids seemed to know a lot of the songs when they heard them! At his digs at uni the posters all seemed to be Dylan, Pink Floyd and Sprinsteen etc. Hardly new music. Likewise my 20 year old daughter has all the early Bowie albums which themselves are approaching 50 years old.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 08:09 AM

Re the Grateful Dead I'm sure they had hand in introducing (and reintroducing) their audience, myself included, to types of music they might not otherwise be aware or had forgotten about like Country,Acoustic and Electric Blues, Bluegrass, Old Time, Jugband etc. that might otherwise have been "doomed to oblivion. I thought this was especially true in their post- psychedelic pre-hiatus period which roughly spanned '69 to '74.


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 11:50 AM

The Dead were an interesting bunch of musicians, playing a wide variety of music in any style and combinations of styles that suited them. It helped, occasionally, to have had a smoke or two (so I'm told) to really appreciate them... Two things worth noting about them:

Far from trying to stop people bootlegging their records, they actively encouraged it. At some concerts, there were booths at the back of the hall where dedicated "Deadheads" could tape the music.

Each year, the band members would meet to decide how a proportion of their annual earnings should be spent in supporting a young musician. I recall one year where a young concert cellist was their charitable 'object'. Good stuff.

There's a classic b&w photograph somewhere of Jerry Garcia on stage, before a live outdoor concert - with a wall of about 24 Vox AC30s behind him!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:01 PM

Dunno whether it's apocryphal, but I heard once that it took two Jumbo Jets to get the Stones and all their kit to a gig!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM

I can believe it. Our jug band was asked to play at a street party in Camden around 1970 or so. When we got to the small terraced street, we found one end blocked by a huge pantechnicon with the tailgate halfway down. We were invited to put our little stage amps on to the tailgate, where everything was miked up very efficiently by a short, broad guy with a beard and long hair.

Turned out he was the Pink Floyd's chief roadie and the van was their tour van! We never sounded better!


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Subject: RE: Popular Music. Doomed to oblivion?
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM

They weren't everyone's cup of tea, Jerry once said, approximately, the GD was like licorice, not everyone likes it but if you do like it you like it a a lot. I like both licorice and the GD a lot, for a musical omnivore like me they were and are the cat's pajamas.


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