BS: Now it’s white tail deer

Subject: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:17 PM

Wasn’t going to hunt this year as I have plenty of moose but my Amish friends who don’t hunt want one so in November I will go get them one. Venison is good stuff. I gave them some moose but left most at my kids home as they have lots of neighbors who want some . I brought home 50lbs and some salmon

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:19 PM

Next year I want a mountain goat. Really hard to hunt but really tasty

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:25 PM

Can I ask you a question Olddude, hopefully without upsetting you?

Why, when you know many people are against hunting, do you tell us all when you go hunting and what you have killed or are about to kill, or what you wish to kill in future.

I, for one, do find it rather perverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:30 PM

Thats telling us I find perverse, not the hunting itself, although I have reservations about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:11 PM

Gnu, rap and a host of others hunt

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:13 PM

Not at all upset, your point is well taken. However there are friends who hunt and it’s easier than a dozen pm messages

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:17 PM

And now that you know how to read a thread title you can figure out how not to open it and be offended. Let's call it a 'safe space'.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:17 PM

I cannot understand why someone wants to post about a "pastime" that others struggle to deal with.

If someone posted that they beat their wife with a rubber tyre I suspect that many would appalled.

It may be their favourite hobby but not something to be discussed on an open forum.

Just saying like .......

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:27 PM

And others here do enjoy hunting, granted others don’t. I personally cannot tolerate the never ending rants on religion but others do so I just ignore the thread ask some of my fellow mudcat brothers who also hunt if it upsets them. Dollars to donuts the endless political rants and religion rants far exceed my outdoor adventures

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:29 PM

I don’t censor others just ignore the hunting and fishing threads like i do on the ones i don’t like. Not mad or upset just saying. I also don’t like accordion music either

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:32 PM

Not being familiar with the deer native to N America, I've just looked up this animal on Google. Beautiful creatures.

I'm afraid I'm one of those who shudder at the thought of lifting a gun, aiming at an innocent wild animal, firing and killing it.

I imagine to myself the terror, despair, pain and the final closing of the eyes. And could the does that are shot have fawns?

No. Not for me I'm afraid.

We have many types of deer here in Norfolk, and it's always a joy to catch a glimpse of them out in the fields. Or even in the garden (muntjac eating our plants the other night!)
I couldn't kill anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:42 PM

Sen nothing wrong with that approach also . They are beautiful. Sadly we have a terrible overpopulation here. Probably because of the lack of predators and the decrease in hunting

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:46 PM

Check out the muskox sen they are amazing I got pretty close in Alaska to a herd. To close actually. They huddle into a group and stare you down. They are dangerous but so woolly and cute.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 08:54 PM

Well, every time I read a Brit questioning the American desire to feed meat to people, by hunting that meat-- it just makes me scream-- (since we're all sharing AGAIN).

If you do not know and share our culture, the scale of our land and its traditional use-- please, sit down and shut up. It's not your business.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 09:18 PM

I am not a hunter. I do believe they are beautiful creatures, in looks, movement, they are the essence of the forest. And in certain areas where their natural predators are no longer extant, particularly suburban neighborhoods, they are a nuisance. They get hit by cars.


Hunting them for food is as old as man's existence on this continent. I have tried venison and not enamored of it. But I may try it again.



The time may come when we are looked upon as barbarians for having eaten animals
.


Right now, I'll bet most of us contributing to this thread eat meat.


There may have been vegetarian threads. There will be more. I have more than one vegetarian cookbook. But we are learning more about plants' ability to recognized and resist predation. Plants try not to be eaten and they warn each other .

So once again, let's let olddude rattle on. No blood will be spilled, at least here at least now.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 09:56 PM

There's a gush of pixels and electrons all over the floor!

Long, long ago I learned a Great Truth: EVERYTHING is connected. You must think on that to understand, and when you do your life changes. I cannot explain it, it is not religion or anything like that. Here is a very simple example germane to this thread:

A deer eats vegetation. Old dude shoots a deer and eats it. The deer becomes part of him, part of his muscle, bones, and blood. Old dude dies. His body returns to its component parts. Those parts are used by plant life to grow....

Here's a humorous poem about it by the late Wally McRae:

       Reincarnation

    "What does Reincarnation mean?"
    A cowpoke asked his friend.
    His pal replied, "It happens when
    Yer life has reached its end.
    They comb yer hair, and warsh yer neck,
    And clean yer fingernails,
    And lay you in a padded box
    Away from life's travails."

    "The box and you goes in a hole,
    That's been dug into the ground.
    Reincarnation starts in when
    Yore planted 'neath a mound.
    Them clods melt down, just like yer box,
    And you who is inside.
    And then yore just beginnin' on
    Yer transformation ride."

    "In a while, the grass'll grow
    Upon yer rendered mound.
    Till some day on yer moldered grave
    A lonely flower is found.
    And say a hoss should wander by
    And graze upon this flower
    That once wuz you, but now's become
    Yer vegetative bower."

    "The posy that the hoss done ate
    Up, with his other feed,
    Makes bone, and fat, and muscle
    Essential to the steed,
    But some is left that he can't use
    And so it passes through,
    And finally lays upon the ground
    This thing, that once wuz you."

    "Then say, by chance, I wanders by
    And sees this upon the ground,
    And I ponders, and I wonders at,
    This object that I found.
    I thinks of reincarnation,
    Of life and death, and such,
    And come away concludin': 'Slim,
    You ain't changed, all that much.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 10:18 PM

Rap exactly. My cardio guy said I have to settle down and behave or my heart will stop. I said I thought only love can break your heart... apology to Neil young. Had no idea what I was talking about:-)

I take a different approach. Rather die happy than live a few years longer watching tv. But that’s me. Only the good die young...I will make it to 150 then

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 10:30 PM

rap does it mean if I eat too much moose will I get horney?

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: ranger1
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 11:17 PM

Here in the part of the world I live in, there are an abundance of deer. There are also an abundance of people who don't have a lot of money, and that deer in the fall (fawns have been weaned by this point, Sen, and most hunting permits are for bucks only) may be the only thing that keeps their kids from going to bed hungry some nights. And it's really more of a management tool, a cull, if you will, to keep the deer population down to a manageable size. Ever seen a deer that has died of starvation? Not such a pretty sight. And I remember driving through West Virginia about 15 years ago and there was a dead deer about every mile on the highway, hit by cars or large trucks. So hunting whitetails doesn't bother me, as long as it's done to put food on the table. And if I had to either hunt a wild creature or raise an animal and slaughter it, I know I'd have an easier time shooting the deer. That animal knows I am the predator. The animals raised by people? They don't know that they're food on the hoof. they depend on humans, and then we turn around and slaughter them.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 11:48 PM

Not all of us are upset, some of us are glad to read of successful trips and hunts. I prefer wild meat if I can get it. Raggytash, the natural predators have largely been eliminated in many parts of North America and there are over-populations of ungulates that over-graze areas, die horrible deaths of starvation, and more. I wish more people were out hunting for their meat supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 12:09 AM

Got me a moose, the moose pleased me,
I shot my moose under yonders tree.
The moose went.... (substitute dying agony sounds)

The deer went...

The mountain goat....

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 12:53 AM

His frying pan went sizzle. Telling a guy born and raised in the Appalachian mountains to not hunt for food is like asking an Englishman not to drink tea. I do think many do not understand the size of America. A state like Alaska is so large it would fill half of the lower 48. You fly over areas that the latest maps have uncharted wilderness marked on them. void of people just wilderness and you are on your own.
Where I grew up in the Appalachian mountains there are massive forests and its a drop in the bucket compared to the northern territories like Alaska

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 01:00 AM

Joe no dying agony sounds more like bang flop it’s down. I wonder how many cow get that quick. I don’t take stupid shots, I also don’t miss and I know how to place it

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: gnomad
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 07:36 AM

As an Englishman I could take exception to that; I can't abide tea.

OD can keep hunting for me, though.

The difference between our lands is considerable, as are the differences in culture. While I dislike the English manner of 'hunting' I don't have a problem with shooting for the pot (rabbits and pigeons here, wild deer, moose etc where they are native) though I am not so sure about 'preserving' game or fowl simply to provide targets.

Perhaps the two activities are sufficiently disparate for a new term to be used: I would suggest that the English term be riding to hounds (or something similar) as the term hunting is appropriate to the American activity, while it is less and less applicable over here.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 07:44 AM

Oh here in Norfolk there's been a huge interest in pheasant shooting since Victorian times. There are large estates which hold shoots for wealthy businessmen, provide Land Rovers and hire beaters etc.

Also, our deer population is getting to be a problem (no natural predators, and they're gnawing away at young tree bark, killing the trees)
Not only that, but being an arable farming region, there are problems with rats and mice. Farmers have terriers specially bred to hunt and kill rodents that hang around the grain silos and hay barns.

And of course I eat meat, which has obviously been slaughtered.

My game-shooting teacher colleague often let me have his game bag with pigeons, rabbits and the odd pheasant in it, providing I plucked/drew/skinned/jointed the game myself (not a problem, my mother taught me all that stuff)

I just couldn't kill something myself. And I love watching the wildlife in this rural area. I prefer watching it to killing and eating it!

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 08:10 AM

What kind of condition are the deer in, physically? A friend who hunts in the Dublin Mountains (where the deer are under intense pressure from their overpopulation and many are starving as a result) shuddered when I told him I sometimes ate venison sausages from a local butcher. He said he'd so often seen tubercular growths on the livers, etc of deer that he would only eat their muscle meat, never their offal.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 08:24 AM

The species I've seen around here seem in good shape Thompson. (fallow, muntjac, roe and the odd red) They get a good living from young trees, and of course the farmers' fields (wheat, beef-grazing meadows, young sugar beet etc) I've never seen a thin or scraggy-looking one.

I should imagine that if they're vectors for TB, the two dairy farmers in our village would have mentioned it. I must ask them next time I see them or their wives. All herds of dairy cows are tested regularly by a vet for bovine TB, and if any is found, the animals concerned are immediately slaughtered, the entire rest of the herd is put on shutdown, milk poured away and re-tests performed until no sign remains. It's a disaster for the farmer, so any TB-contaminated deer mooching around would be a matter for great concern.

My only annoyance with the blooming things is when they gaily gallop out in front of our car and then stand like twits in a panic, not knowing whether to advance or retreat. Husband says they give him 'une crise cardiaque'!

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 09:55 AM

My mrs is an expert hunter with my car. She totaled three cars hitting them over the years as they run across the highway in front of you. They just don’t look both ways I guess

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:04 AM

I wish I could try hunting for meat. I don't know if I would be up to it but if I was it would resolve a moral conundrum. I do like meat but the principle of breeding animals just for slaughter is a difficult thing to live with. I buy only outdoor reared and ethically sourced meat but it still sometimes seems wrong. If I could hunt a wild deer or moose it could resolve the conundrum but a) I have nowhere to do it and b) I dunno if I could!

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: ranger1
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:28 AM

DtG, that's a conundrum I live with myself. Luckily, my sister usually keeps me supplied with some of the venison she gets. Alas, she's healing from a badly broken ankle this year, so there will be no hunting for her and no deer meat in my freezer this winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: gillymor
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:52 AM

There are alternatives to meat. I'm not sure it would resolve anyone's ethical dilemmas as I became a vegetarian in a successful attempt to clear up gastric difficulties but, fwiw, after 15 years I don't miss the stuff at all.
Btw, I enjoy reading of old dude's exploits. I don't hunt any more but they remind me of crisp autumn mornings walking in the woods with friends and relatives in VA and PA and stopping for coffee and hot cider along the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 11:02 AM

I'm not all that sure that all the meat free alternatives are ecologically sound. Maybe they are but I would need some convincing that changing the hunter/fathers formula we have used since the dawn of man is the wrong one and we need to go to nothing but farming soya and fungi!

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM

Gilly say you still eat fish please

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: gillymor
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 11:30 AM

You know it, Dan. I guess by today's standards I'd be called a piscavore, I sometimes forget that.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 11:35 AM

I spoke to a friend about getting venison and sausage - it's illegal to sell meat you've hunted for. You can give it, or trade it, but not commercially sell. An exception is if someone takes their deer for processing and never picks it up, then the butcher can sell that meat. I have a list of a couple of butchers out in the county I will check with after hunting season (usually from November - January).

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 11:45 AM

I can tell from the teeth in my mouth that I am omnivorous. That takes care of the "morality" of eating meat. I think of it as Nature's very own fast food.

Since I eat meat, I do not disdain the work involved in making it available to be eaten -- i.e., killing the animal, dressing it out, butchering it and cooking it. I am grateful that our society is so ordered that other people will do much of that work for me (for a price), thus allowing me to spend that time doing other things.

On the subject of disease among wildlife, bovine tuberculosis is endemic among white-tailed deer in much of the northern United States and southern Canada -- yet another reason why farmers generally do not focus on their beauty when they think of deer. Those of us who like venison reduce the risk by cooking the meat thoroughly before eating it.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

I agree with all that, Charmion, but I still cannot say that breeding animals for the sole purpose of killing them is morally sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 08:54 PM

I was strolling by the meat counter in a store the other day and on the shelf were packages of elk, bison, and wild boar. I suspect very strongly that they were all farmed (how can you call it "wild" boar if it's grown in a fenced area?). Bison (buffalo to us in the US) is widely farmed here, elk not so much but some and all too often for "hunters" to shoot for huge antler racks to put on their wall.

There is a thing called "Chronic Wasting Disease" (CWD) in American mule deer, whitetail deer, and elk. It is a type of TSE -- fortunately it has been stopped at the Idaho border (so far). The CDC published the following suggestion for hunters.

[a]s a precaution, hunters should avoid eating deer and elk tissues known to harbor the CWD agent (e.g., brain, spinal cord, eyes, spleen, tonsils, lymph nodes) from areas where CWD has been identified".

I've eaten a lot of venison, all well cooked muscle tissue. I don't know of anyone who eats deer tonsils or elk eyes! Brucellosis can affect buffalo (bison), which is why Montana ranchers want every buff that wanders in from Yellowstone NP killed -- they're afraid that it is endemic in the park and will infect their cattle.

There are some very limited buffalo hunts available if you have the money and are lucky enough to win a lottery for a license. American Indians can kill a buffalo or two as it is part of their culture, but even that is carefully controlled.

Gray whales have been hunted by the tribes of the Pacific Northwest and Alaska. The last time I know of that the animal was harpooned from a traditional canoe paddled by tribal members. It was given the coup de grace by shots from a Barrett Model 82A1 .50 caliber rifle. The meat was divided among the member of the tribe.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:15 PM

Rap you should have heard the native guys telling me how they get walrus. The details are not pleasant

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Jos
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 02:27 AM

For those who are avoiding exploiting wild creatures, there was an item on the radio this morning about 'vegan gardening'. No blood, fish and bone; no manure from farmed animals or chickens. But it seems that wormeries are acceptable. Why is it OK to keep worms captive in a container if you are so sensitive about other creatures? (Or is it just because the worms are not deliberately killed?)

The fact is that all living things exist by absorbing parts of other living (or previously living) things. I would not be very healthy if I only ate what had died a natural death from sickness or old age, or ripe fruit that had fallen to the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 04:07 AM

WONDER IF THIS CAME WITH COOKING INSTRUCTIONS !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 04:23 AM

Oh Lord Jim,that's appalling. What a cretin that woman must be. And why does the S African government allow people to 'trophy hunt' in their country?

An American chap shot a much-loved wild lion with a distinguishing black mane fairly recently. Like the woman in your article, he looked completely chuffed with himself.

The stupid cow said that the giraffe had been estimated as being at least eighteen years old, but giraffe have a life expectancy of around 25 years in the wild. So she'd deprived it of seven years of life.

I'm sorry, but I feel nothing but fury, disgust and sheer detestation for that'huntress'. Evil woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 05:55 AM

"What a cretin that woman must be."
All a matter of degree Sen - foxes, deer, giraffe lions bears.... whence the difference when it comes to killing for pleasure ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:07 AM

Like Raggytash, up in the second post, I have wondered why olddude starts so many threads such as this one.

As an omnivore, I accept that I have been responsible for the demise of many thousands of animals. I intend to continue this lifestyle and am highly unlikely to become vegetarian. As I have said in previous threads, I have no complaint against people hunting to for food. What I do find distasteful is the glorification of the slaughter.

Olddude, by his own admission, couldn't eat all of what he killed and most of it was either given away or left with his kids who, if I remember correctly, already had a moose of their own - enough to last a whole year. I suspect that the many protestations about sharing food the poor people, who would otherwise starve out in the wilderness, are just an excuse to cover up a blood lust.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:44 AM

You've nailed it Jim. 'Killing for pleasure'. That's exactly what I object to. I eat meat, and animals have been slaughtered for me and all the other omnivores to do so. But I could never take pleasure in killing any creature for sport or trophy hunting.

I've seen real starvation, and my husband has quite literally starved, before we met.
We now share what we can money-wise to help feed our African kin.
My husband's tribe in past generations were hunter-gatherers ( with spears and bows-and-arrows) on the savannah of southern Mali and northern Cote d'Ivoire. But it was in order to survive, not a fun sport.

I'm sorry if my posts upset olddude, whom I like very much. But I cannot understand or condone 'enjoying' killing animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:02 AM

Apologies for feeding people who would rather eat game then abused chemical fed farm animals. Hunting is a way of life in Appalachia. Likewise I have no clue about growing up without hunting for food. Agree to disagree. Like I said many of my friends here do hunt. You folks are free to ignore my threads that were meant for those who do want to hear about the wilderness adventures

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:04 AM

I take no offense to anyone that doesn’t understand my culture as i don’t understand yours

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:15 AM

As for trophies. Won’t find anything in my world. My dad said it was disrespectful to the animal. In my culture deer provided food. So did fish, mountain berries, wild nuts and a host of others. For years I did not hunt or fish. Now I go back to my roots as I have the time to do so. Sorry if you disagree but I don’t change for other people. I have helped and taken care of many people on this site as that is who I am. My outdoor adventures are mine to share with those who wish to hear. If not then please ignore them

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: olddude
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:33 AM

I would respectfully ask those trashing me to give up meat as cows, chicken and pigs are animals also .

Subject: RE: BS: Now it’s white tail deer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:38 AM

"I would respectfully ask those trashing me to give up meat as cows, chicken and pigs are animals also ."
It's not about to eat meat or not to eat meat- it's about killing for the sake of killing
Unfortunately we live in a carnivore world, it doesn't mean we have to make killing something to get our rocks off on
Jim Carroll