UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM

And guest 24 Feb 19 - 06:39 AM, which bit of "traditional music is not etc" did you fail to understand?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

Sorry, Jim. Where have I abused you? If you provide the date, time and what you felt to be abusive, I will unreservedly apologise.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

There was also plentiful scholarship in Nazi Germany. Many find flaws in some of its findings. Some research for perpetual motion.
The quest does not bring the certainty of accurate conclusions,no matter what its nature.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:07 AM

I was responding to his statement that nobody writes folk songs - I'n not interested why they write anything
Unless you want to kick down over a century' scholarship, some done while the tradition was still alive (as some desk-jockeys apparently do) - nobody can write a folk song - it has to go through a process to become one
The term 'folk;' is totally meaningless if that's not accepted
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:54 AM

jim, you agreed that "they write contemporary songs that they hope will be commercially successful -" that is absolute rubbish , that comment made by guest anon is   intellectual masturbation

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:45 AM

"I know hundreds of contemporary folksong writers who write for a great variety of reasons,"
Only if you abandon any semblance of the term "folk" Steve, as you obviously have
Once again, you forgot to add "in my opinion"
This gets crazier and crazier
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

>>>>>>Nobody writes contemporary FOLK songs they write contemporary songs that they hope will be commercially successful -"<<<<<<<

That is absolute piffle! I know hundreds of contemporary folksong writers who write for a great variety of reasons, love of the music, trying to get a message across, political beliefs, to enhance local and national heritage etc. etc. If their songs are taken up by others or put out on a CD the commercial aspect is simply an add-on. Some of these are brilliant writers and their songs will stand the test of time.
For most of them the greatest accolade is having their songs sung by others.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:21 AM

Incidentally Dave
What has a piece of CLASSICAL MUSIC got to do with this discussion
Is that what we can expect from your club ?
If so - I much prefer the real thing rather than Patrick Street's agonisingly bad rendition (hope I don't meet Jackie Daly in the local bar when I go out for a pint tonight
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

"Traditional music is not just word and story based through"
Yes it is Dave - whatever bands like Patrick Street do it it - it is a set of peoetic words set to a tune - not a tune, as any band may do to ti
This really is inane
I think you're better off on the other thread talking to a New Age Researcher - you'll get no more form me I'm afraid
You have established quite clearly where you stand, sadly
"Carroll Codswallop,"
If you have only abuse to offer the same goes for you Dick
Who suggested any of those for money - certainly not me ?
Stop making things up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:04 AM

, to paraphrase the great fred trueman quote which sums up this thread.
Unless something happens that we can't predict, I don't think a lot will happen”

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:54 AM

I disagree people write songs for anumber of reasons not just to be commercially succesful, examples MacColl rosselson,
these words need to be carved in stone with the words Carroll Codswallop, are you going to tell me thatMacColl wrote first time ever [ to be commercially successful, didhe writedirty old town thirty foot trailer my old man to be commercially successful, did leon rosselson write world turned upside down anf aberfan to be commercially succesful. Jim you have inadvertenly insulted your old friend, you are losing the plot

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:39 AM

Traditional music is not just word and story based ....."

Talking about songs here, so what part of the following did you fail to grasp?

"The most unique and important aspect of TRADITIONAL SONG is that it is word based"

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:19 AM

Sorry, intended putting a link to the Patrick Street version.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:15 AM

Traditional music is not just word and story based through. To say so ignores a massive culture of music that has no words whatsoever! And I think anyone would be hard pushed to say something like "Music for a found harmonium" is not traditional unless they knew the background of it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:04 AM

"Nobody writes contemporary FOLK songs they write contemporary songs that they hope will be commercially successful -"
Thank you guest - those words need to be carved into stone
When we have researchers who produce unresearched percentages of non-involved people to make their case, folk music really is in trouble
The appalling thing is that people in general almost certainly know less as to what constitutes folk song than they did a century ago
Sharps generation at least had the anodyne adaptations that were edited to be served up to children - Miss Pringle bashing out 'Cherry Ripe' on the school piano was closer to folk song than what goes on in many folk clubs today
The Folk Boom, for all its shortcomings, was relying on the researches carried by the Lomaxs in the States and the BBC team working in the first half of the Fifties
Now even the researches have abandoned that pioneering work and have decided that the pioneers were "starry-eyed romantics", Child was an incompetent researcher who couldn't distinguish between his various subjects and singers like Walter Pardon, Mary Delaney, Tom Lenihan.... and all the other source singers who expressed views on their songs down the decades, didn't have a clue what they were talking about - Ivory-towerism gone ballistic.
If you are seriously researchinga a subjct, you dont stand at the bus stop waiting for the next fad to come along like a cultural commuter - you should know the subjct you are researching
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:01 AM

quote:- "Loon Rossleson"

Rather unkind, wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 05:13 AM

Best post on this thread by far is the following from Jim Carroll:

"The most unique and important aspect of traditional song is that it is word based - the songs carry the stories, ideas, emotions, appropriations, experiences..... of 'the folk' - the people who made and carried them they are narratives with tunes
The song makers you listed, "MacColl, Garbutt and Tawney", make songs make songs using a similar form - you might have added Eric Bogle, Loon Rossleson, Jack Warshaw, Enoch Kent, Miles Wooton, Pete Smith, John Pole.... and the many, many others who used the same composition techniques
To my untrained ear, those you listed are indistinguishable from pop songs, if I wanted to listen to them, I would be listening to music that happened to have words
What words tere are are either drowned out by what should be the accompaniment but, rather, dominates the performance
Joust listened to Thompson.... the narrative - if there is one, in unfollowable, the words are turned to gibberish by having not making grammatical sense... broken up to make room for long gutar
breaks... if you removed the guitar the piece would he less than half the length
One of the great problems of much accompaniment of traditional songs is that, as skilful as it may be played, it swamps the narrative - you could go for a piss between lines
Our folk songs are statements in verse - your music is as far away as you can get from that
I've said this over and over again - your examples bear no resmblence to our folk song repertoire - if that is what you are selling as folk you're conning the punters and, while you're at it, you are destroying a people's art form
Sory Dave - we are not sppeaking the same language - you are arguing for the hostile takeover that hast taken place"

Dave the Gnome was correct the first time when he typed - "Go to 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM for an unanswered question. Repeated since. Very simply, why do you consider some contemporary songs suitable for folk clubs but not others?"

Nobody writes contemporary FOLK songs they write contemporary songs that they hope will be commercially successful - certainly applies to Sheeran, McTell and Dylan. I think Brian McNeil is the only person I know who would not fit into that mold. Whether they become FOLK songs is not down to the writer of the song it is down to those who hear it and the process it then goes through. And in this Jim is again perfectly correct:

"The most unique and important aspect of traditional[Folk] song is that it is word based - the songs carry the stories, ideas, emotions, appropriations, experiences..... of 'the folk' - the people who made and carried them they are narratives with tunes

Traditional folk instruments in relation to UK folk music - Guitars? Don't think so they only really became massively popular in the UK AFTER the Second World War with the arrival of skiffle.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:54 AM

"I would suggest that times do change and that word meanings have and do change"
If we are to continue to communicate any changes need a consensus
When you are talkig of a specific historically based music you cannot arbitrarily change its definition to suit personal taste otherwise you lose it
99% of the population either understand or care what folk music is so it is 'poulist' to rely on their non-surveyed views - that's what gave us Brexit and the "many" referred to are in fact very few and dwindling rapidly so even erzatz folk is losing out bu not having an identity
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM

400. OOOOh I cheated!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

This post is in anticipation of the next one if it succeeds>

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:48 AM

Lots of sense in there, Ray. I think 99.9% of the population would agree with you. I certainly do.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM

Yes we seem to have meandered off the topic UK60s Folk Club boom

I would suggest that times do change and that word meanings have and do change

Not everyone wants to nor needs to change their thinking, others will argue that is not necessarily good think to ignore passage of time and how things have changed

Folk song ~ to many like me includes traditional song, however it is defined ~ it does not exclude Contemporary folk song ~ yes agree sometimes difficult to separate contemporary folk song from popular music and certainly whilst pop artist use traditional song to arrange and record and entertain audiences it is bound to get worse in the future

Time is a respecter of no man ~ we are all getting older and audiences are younger and looking to modern ways ~ hopefully still respecting the sources of their music

I do applaud the arrangements by musically gifted artists of traditional song using the folk instruments such as fiddles, guitars concertinas et al as well as the unaccompanied singers which is still very popular in dedicated sessions

Ray (over 70 btw)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

Ok, Jim. Your phrase "To my untrained ear, those you listed are indistinguishable from pop songs" sums it up. You cannot explain to me why some contemporary folk is ok while some is not so It seems that it is all down to personal taste as I have said all along! On that note, I shall take this discussion elsewhere to see if someone else can explain it. Look for a thread called "Different types of contemporary folk". Feel free to join in if you like but unless you have anything extra to add I think you may find it boring:-(

What I would like to add is my thanks for a well mannered and interesting discussion. Isn't it nice to be able to disagree strongly without the rancour and bitterness we see so often from some below the line.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

"23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM"
What have I not answered there Dave ?
I did do by putting Sheeran's song up - - if you can't tell the difference between his song and those others you listed then there is no point in our continuing - I'm not sure there has been for a long time
The most unique and important aspect of traditional song is that it is word based - the songs carry the stories, ideas, emotions, appropriations, experiences..... of 'the folk' - the people who made and carried them they are narratives with tunes
The song makers you listed, "MacColl, Garbutt and Tawney", make songs make songs using a similar form - you might have added Eric Bogle, Loon Rossleson, Jack Warshaw, Enoch Kent, Miles Wooton, Pete Smith, John Pole.... and the many, many others who used the same composition techniques
To my untrained ear, those you listed are indistinguishable from pop songs, if I wanted to listen to them, I would be listening to music that happened to have words
What words tere are are either drowned out by what should be the accompaniment but, rather, dominates the performance
Joust listened to Thompson.... the narrative - if there is one, in unfollowable, the words are turned to gibberish by having not making grammatical sense... broken up to make room for long gutar
breaks... if you removed the guitar the piece would he less than half the length
One of the great problems of much accompaniment of traditional songs is that, as skilful as it may be played, it swamps the narrative - you could go for a piss between lines
Our folk songs are statements in verse - your music is as far away as you can get from that
I've said this over and over again - your examples bear no resmblence to our folk song repertoire - if that is what you are selling as folk you're conning the punters and, while you're at it, you are destroying a people's art form
Sory Dave - we are not sppeaking the same language - you are arguing for the hostile takeover that hast taken place
I have no intention of climbing fences at my age - go read Lloyd's classic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:43 AM

That should be contemporary folk songs of course.

Do we think the discussion on contemporary folk should be on a thread of its own or is it part of the changing UK folk scene?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:16 PM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:50 PM

I have answered avery single point you and anybody else has made

Oh no you haven't!

Go to 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM for an unanswered question. Repeated since. Very simply, why do you consider some contemporary songs suitable for folk clubs but not others?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:05 PM

"And you are far more skilful at avoiding the issue than me. "
I have answered avery single point you and anybody else has made
You have yet to tie up your '54 definition with what you think a folk club should put on
Love to learn how Ed Sheeran (thanks Jack) fits into that one
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:47 PM

Just that you should not judge someone on their image, Jim. And you are far more skilful at avoiding the issue than me. You have still not explained the difference between the various contemporary folk songs that I have listed. Other than you like some and not others. Which just boils down to personal taste.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

jim b, if i book Martin Carthy ,i do not do so to hear him sing rave on, i would be selling tickets and people would expect him to sing the material he is renowned for. i would not book leon rosselson and expect him to sing buddy holly songs neither would people buying tickets for the concert

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

ok, eds version is ok, i have heard better and have heard much worse, however he would put bums on seats in folk clubs and if he was singing trad songs like that , that would be a good thing and might introduce a lot of people to the music and folk clubs

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 11:24 AM

"used to drive a real folkie friend of mine crazy."
Can't see why - that's what they did best
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunemith
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM

I remember when Fairports, a million years ago, used to end with a rock'a'roll medley and it would get the biggest applause of the night. The audience's reaction used to drive a real folkie friend of mine crazy.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 08:16 AM

"what's wrong with this, Jim?"
Maybe I don't understand what you're on about Dave (other than avoiding the fact that Sheren has as much to do with folk as has Maria Callas)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM

dave,
it is ok but i have heard better and worse, to be fair guitar is accompanying rather than singer follwing accompaniment.
i am not sure if he was not so well known whether he would be good enough to book , but of course he would bring bums on seats regardlessof how good he is

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

jim b , i think you should go and sid has promised to take me to the marsh

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM

Combining songs and singers from the last couple of posts, what's wrong with this, Jim?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM

I drop catches too, Jim(B), but I am pretty soft to land on :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

"So look harder. Is "the Parting Glass" not a folksong?"
Of course it is - but not sung like that
Is Rod Stewart a folk singer because he sings Wild Mountain Thyme or George Butterworth a folk composer because he used 'Bonnie Annie to compose 'Banks of Green Willow' ?
Wouldn't have either of them a any folk club I frequented (despite the fact I think Butterworth's composition to be one of the most exquisite orchestral compositions)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

I can recall Martin singing Rave on- probably not in a folk club though- he also did a fine version of Proud Mary & good for him....
Creedence Clearwater were a great band, with a lot of musical credence (sorry about that!)-I've done their stuff as well as Buddy Holly IN MY OWN WAY & certainly not all night- no apologies for that....It's only PART of something bigger, like Johnny Doughty or Margaret Barry, so I have no intention of jumping off a bridge just yet... Keith Fletcher used to drop as lot of catches, didn't he?

yes Dick, it was a nice wee session out on the Marsh- not sure whether to go to Tenterden this year but we might repeat it if I do?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:51 AM

Sheran's Wiki entry

"Sheeran" might have worked better.


Not one single reference top him being linked to folk

So look harder. Is "the Parting Glass" not a folksong?

Like Ewan MacColl, some of his songs are more folky than others, and he seems to be getting more interested in traditional material as time goes on. I doubt he's ever gone as far from tradition as MacColl did with that godawful schlocky piece of Cole Porter pastiche "The First Time Ever". (Come to think of it, "Dirty Old Town" is basically American too - the tune might be straight out of Vernon Dalhart).

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

...And I have never claimed that Ed Sheran is a folk singer. You are, once again, putting up a straw man. Please stick to the point. In what way are those songs different to other contemporary folk songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

I have always tried to answer your questions honestly, Jim, but you seem to be avoiding mine.

To me, both the songs in those links seem to have been written employing "folk techniques". Please note that I am talking about the songs, not the presentation. Take away the showbiz razzamataz, imagine someone like Christie Moore singing them, then tell me how they are not written in a folk style.

I would be happy to see Mr Sheran, on his own with a guitar, performing those songs anywhere. I am not a big fan of his other stuff but he does make a good job of some traditional songs btw.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:34 AM

What I find confusing is that Jim sometimes insists that "folk" means "traditional"., but he then admits that folk-like songs are acceptable, and that one of his best nights in a club didn't have much to do with "folk". So the question then is where to draw the line between "folk" and other forms of music. That boundary will always be vague and to a large extent a question of personal taste. However if you regard traditional songs as having a particular quality because of the way they have come to us, then the only distinction between composed songs is one of personal taste. You may prefer a McColl song over one by Donovan because one is closer to folk forms, but that doesn't make it a better song.

Personally I could never see what connection there was between say Nick Drake or Donovan, or Simon & Garfunkel for that matter, and folk, except that one interpretation of "folk" has come to mean a singer-songwriter with a guitar. That's possibly of American origin, in the Woody Guthrie tradition, but whatever its origins it has stuck.

I think what is acceptable to put before a folk club audience depends at least as much on content and attitude as provenance. A song with a message or a story, with words up front and with a connection to the audience will often go down well. As for actual pop songs , it depends on context. If a floor singer started to turn up at a club and sang only pop songs every week, then no matter how good they were someone should probably have a quiet word. When an established performer of traditional songs throws one in, it's a bit of fun and not meant to be taken seriously - lighten up. Or sometimes a different interpretation can shed new light on a song - I think the Tabor/Oysterband cover of "Love will Tear Us Apart" is streets ahead of the original because they make it feel more personal, but I know many will disagree.

I don't think any folk club audiences want to hear a night of pop songs, but in my (admittedly now limited) experience of folk clubs I don't think this happens very often. I think Jim may have been unfortunate in his own experience of modern clubs. Where I do agree is that poor performance standards are a greater threat. I can't see why anyone would want to submit themselves to that, except for the opportunity to sing themselves, and I don't think they are a good advert for folk music. However in places where good standards are encouraged I think they are higher than ever, as singers and musicians now have far more opportunities to obtain instruction.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:19 AM

I've just checked Sheran's Wiki entry (as you seem to be afan of the site)
Not one single reference top him being linked to folk (though it does say he performed with Elton John - maybe he's a folk singer too!)
This - as the Goons often used to say to close their show - "is all in thee mind - you know"
You appear to be claiming off your own bat that Serin is a folk singer
Has the scene really reached that depth ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:13 AM

to clarify fletcher was a cricketer called the gnome, so maybe it would be more apt if i said i would send buddy holly singers to jump off the nearest bridge, but being a kind man i would have dave the gnome to catch them at at the bottom

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:11 AM

Dave
Can you link me to anythng folk that vaguely corresponds to THIS
OR THIS
Is that a Devon or a Yorkshire accent he's singing in ?
For Christ's sake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:03 AM

to paraphrase the great fred trueman , i would ask people who want to sing buudy holly to jump off a bridge but i am a kind man i wouldhave keith fletcher to stand below to catch them

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

of course its my prefernces,that is why i choose to go to certain clubs and not others.
however when i ran a club i had two considerastions my prefernces and regular members prefernces. hence i booked andy caven , my policy when i ran clkubs was too book 60 per cent of what i liked and forty per cent of what regular members might ask for.
that does not mean when i turn up at a folk club that is what i want to hear, but its easy enough a little research on a computer.
when i pay my fiver to hear martin carthy i know what i am getting and it is not [ despite [gnomes statement... buddy holly].
in my opinion the more important problem is the low standard of performing at some singers clubs at guest booking clubs my experience has been better.
When has Carthy sang buddy holly songs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:50 AM

I'm not running anything, Jim. I'm trying to determine just what it is that constitutes a contemporary folk song for you and why it is different to what constitutes a contemporary folk song for me.

Why do you say MacColl's "Dirty Old Town" is written employing "folk techniques" but Sheran's "Nancy Mulligan" is not?