UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:04 PM

"I very much doubt that playing the violin is much easier."
I've no idea Al -I don't play either neither do I care too much - as someone ahas alreafdy said, folk music is an Art, it doesn't need to be a competition
I do know the incredible skill that goes into playing these instruments - especially by young people, is worthy of a little more than the begrudgery that has been shown here
Hardy encouraging for those making the effort

Vic whatever I said I said, it's no excuse for your behavior here
Up to now the discussion has been fairly civilised - I've come to accept 'folk police' and 'purist as par for the course
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM

I must apologise - the date of your post was the 17th February not the 7th.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

bt it has never been nasty - until now

No? Not even when you made an insulting comment on 7th February which I objected to a day later and then the mods removed both your insult and my objection as it made no sense for it to remain as yours had been removed?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:31 PM

Let me explain Jim.

To be a decent (not inspired) just competent folk guitarist you must work diligently at your craft for at least ten years (Paul Downes reckoned, and I think it was a conservative estimate).

I very much doubt that playing the violin is much easier.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:29 PM

"I am suggesting nothing. "
"However he does ask a vital question when he writes "
Not suggesting anything - then why put up the quote as " vital question" Vic - especially when you are not prepared to back it up with argument?
This argument may have been vigorous, intense and even personal on occasion (not from me) bt it has never been nasty - until now
Forget it
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:18 PM

Jim again -
"as the sole arbiter of "what is suitable to be called folk"? "
Are you seriously suggesting taht what I am arguing has peen solely my view Vic

I am suggesting nothing. It should be clear from reading the post and the fact that these words are in italics that this is a quotation. If you want an answer to this then you must direct your question to the person who wrote it; in this case unnamed GUEST 12 Mar 19 - 05:36 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:39 AM

"I will never allow myself to submit myself to your self-imposed role as interrogator here."
Others seem happy to consider it lively discussion Vic
". as the sole arbiter of "what is suitable to be called folk"? "
Are you seriously suggesting taht what I am arguing has peen solely my view Vic
I have given sources and quotes for every single claim I have made - people regularly refer to my arguments as 'mine' but they most certainly are not
IF that's your attitude maybe it's just as well we don't wish to talk to each other - I certainly have no wish to take this any further
Out as far as this revealing incident is concerned
"But then, why on earth shouldn't it?"
Because it never has Howard - erzatz folk only attracts an interest in erzatz folk - god knows what the present stuff attracts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:38 AM

The Spanish Inquisition

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:11 AM

Nothing wrong with a bit of an interrogation, Vic, but no one expects the Spanish Inquisition :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:07 AM

Jim Carroll wrote
Didn't expect anything more Vic - certainly not a response

Good, then we understand one another. Unlike others on this thread, I will never allow myself to submit myself to your self-imposed role as interrogator here.

I thoroughly disprove of Mudcat's allowance of unnamed GUEST posting here - and have objected to this several times - because they are sometimes mischief-making and the source of insults. In fact the GUEST who posted at 12 Mar 19 - 05:36 AM was verging on the insulting in his pithy description of you. However he does ask a vital question when he writes He talks about "judgements"; are all the other participants in this thread happy to accept the didactic pronouncements of the...three words that I would rather not quote... as the sole arbiter of "what is suitable to be called folk"?

The answer from me to that question is a resounding "NO".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:36 AM

"Mixing in folk song with what appears to be happening now if not going to attract a single individual to folk music - why on earth should it?"

But then, why on earth shouldn't it? It didn't seem to put people off during the boom years, when (as others besides me have pointed out) the clubs presented a broader interpretation of "folk" than purely traditional. "What appears to be happening now" is nothing new. How many people in the 60s discovered traditional music from first listening to Bob Dylan and then exploring other aspects of folk? How many people familiar with Simon and Garfunkle's "Scarborough Fair" may then have siscovered Martin Carthy's version?

Someone hearing "Fairytale of New York" on the radio might look on Spotify for the Pogues, which might then introduce them to Oysterband, which might lead to their version of "Our Captain Cried All Hands" with June Tabor, which might then lead straight to Pop Maynard's version from VoTP - they're all on Spotify. It's easier than ever before to discover new music and follow connections, and young people are far more open-minded - if they like something they're not concerned with whatever label has been put on it.

You continue to assert that a broad interpretation of "folk" is both new and damaging, without providing any evidence that it is actually putting off young people. When festivals like Shrewsbury and Towersey, which attract sizeable young audiences, sell out rapidly I don't think this can be true.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:28 AM

Didn't expect anything more Vic - certainly not a response
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

Anybody who describes the Irsh music scene as he did most certainly dos
Well... and only since you are asking.... there are two in your first sentence.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

"made me smile. "
Anybody who describes the Irsh music scene as he did most certainly dos Vic - smile away
He may have lived in one of the dead spots but that fact that I can turn the radio on any night of the week and find good quality traditional music - often recorded sessions - seven nights of the week, says what needs saying
The music isn't "still thriving" - it nearly dies and is now soaring and will be for a generation or so
I'm afraid my view on Jim's take on the tradition is somewhat coloured by his summing up of the ballads (the "Muckle Sangs" according to Hamish Henderson) as "inappropriate"
Maybe we have different views on what the tradition is
I find it rather sad that people from a traditional scene which is in trouble should attempt to shoot down another which filling up with enthusiastic newcomers
Neither gracious nor helpful
(hope I managed to avoid typos in that Vic)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:53 AM

Howard
Sorry if I took you wrong
The word 'important' is often used to suggest a crusade to 'save' folksong for posterity rather than to enjoy it for what it basically is - a superb form of entertainment that we can all participate in (with a bit of work and thought)
Some clubs went for all kinds of songs (often referred to as 'Singing Horse clubs after the overused joke by a bluesman) - not all of them by any means
There were enough to choose, but the choice lay between the real stuff and the Zimmerman snigger-snogwriter wannabes - not the Victorian parlour ballad or early pop song stuff, or even the music hall stuff - that came later.
Topic was a good rule of thumd to gauge what was happening in the non navel-gazing side of the scene - when it did music hall stiff it did so as a separate issue (there are exceptions, of course)
"old man's stuff" - I'd care if my objective was to put bums on seats
Mixing in folk song with what appears to be happening now if not going to attract a single individual to folk music - why on earth should it
If you are going to call everything you do as folk song you are going to reduce those of us who involve ourselves in the real thing as a bunch of geriatric eccentrics - stuff that, thank you very much
The answer for me is an easy one - if you don't want to perform folk songs go and do your thing elsewhere under another name, you really have done enough damage (possibly irreparable as far as the next generation goes) as it is
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM

Jim Bainbridge wrote:-
the idea that Ireland is a lost World of music is rubbish.
to which another Jim replied:-
You edto get out more Jim
I must admit that the idea that Jim Bainbridge needs to get out more (if that was what was intended in what I have quoted) made me smile. I have known him well since the 1960s and if I asked to award first prize for INCURABLE SESSION JUNKIE amongst all the hundreds of people that I have met through this music, there is little doubt that the first name to come into my mind would be that of Jim Bainbridge. I have played with him in sessions in four countries and although I go to many sessions and folk clubs I believe that this number is dwarfed by the number that Jim must have attended. Jim Bainbridge would find it difficult to get out more than he does.
However, this set me thinking, Jim Bainbridge implies that the spread of traditional music in Ireland is patchy - and he has lived all over Ireland, so that is an opinion that I respect... but still an opinion. Another opinion.... but still only an opinion, come from the other Jim and is that traditional music is now widespread and thriving all over the island.
I have recently returned from a month in the Gambia where I have been going every year now since 1997 and one of my purposes when I am there is to find and record the traditional music of Manding jalis. Experience has taught me not to go to the capital, Banjul, or the largest town, Serrekunda, or the north bank ferry town of Barra because I won't find jalis there; I would have much more success in Bansang, in Kembujae and particularly Brikama. If I go food shopping in the bustling, crowded Brikama market with my best Gambian friend, Jali Sheriffo Konteh, the chances are that we will bump into another jali that I have not met before and another contact is made. My impression, like that of Jim B. in Ireland is that the spread of jali traditional music in the Gambia is patchy though still thriving.... but again this is only an opinion.
What we need is some research that produces supportable facts. Now I need help here. Somewhere on the internet, I have seen a scatter graph map of the British Isles that plots the geographical location of every informant of the Victorian/Edwardian collectors - mainly using the Roud Index as a source. I wish I had downloaded it at the time because now I cannot find it and would welcome links from anyone who can locate it. Of course, it is only a retrospective version and it does raise questions; what about the Travellers? Did the collectors cover the counties methodically? Still, it did throw up some fascinating results. Huge concentrations - Aberdeenshire, Perthshire, East Anglia, Herefordshire, Sussex, Somerset as well as large areas that seemed to be traditional song deserts. Many more were located in the south of England than the north. Why were there more than 10 times as many names from Sussex as from Surrey and Kent combined? Are that three neighbouring counties that different? This would seem to be as factual as we are likely to get and it suggests that the spread of traditional music was patchy, particularly in England.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:36 AM

"800 - and still no answer to the original question. Is this a Mudcat record ?"
I would have thought that it was clear from the postings that nobody knew how many clubs there were - how could they
The question was vague anyway
The 'Boom lasted for several years during which time many clubs sprang up which had little to do with the actual industry-driven 'boom', but chose instead to start plundering works like The Penguin Book and The Singing Island and taking songs from the BBC collection
These clubs continued to grow long after the industry lost interest - that independant 'boom' continued into the 1980s
Now, it seems, the scene has returned back into the prdatory arms of the media as a measure of success
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: beachcomber
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM

Aaah, what was your question again ?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM

800 - and still no answer to the original question. Is this a Mudcat record ?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:08 AM

Sorry Jim, that wasn't meant to be patronising, I was trying to convey that I also regard traditional music as important. But folk clubs have always embraced more than traditional music. My preference is trad, but I have heard plenty of good music in folk clubs which wasn't traditional, and plenty of performances of trad which have bored me rigid.

Where will young people discover folk music, now the clubs have declined? Serendipity, I suppose, just as most of us did. It will usually be a chance encounter with folk that leads people into it. I doubt many people discover folk at a folk club - they come across it elsewhere and that leads them to visit venues putting on folk music to hear more. In our day that meant folk clubs, today there are other options.

Some young people will have been introduced by parents who are folkies, or parents of friends. They have the internet - they use music streaming services which recommend new music based not only on what they have listened to before but what their friends are listening to. There is plenty of folk music on these services so it is quite possible that folk will be among the recommendations. For those who want to seek out the real thing, VOTP is on Spotify.

What they don't seem to be very interested in is sitting in the back room of a dingy old-man's pub with people old enough to be their grandparents, and who can blame them? We wouldn't at their age. They do things their own way, at venues which may or may not be called folk clubs. They go to house concerts and festivals. They are both listening to and performing folk music, and often to very high standards.

Times have changed, and there are other gateways into folk besides folk clubs. But I made this point several hundred posts earlier.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

"The usual line was,   there are ten year old in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick."
There weren't then - there are now Al

There are now Dave Swarbrick is dead.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM

"The usual line was,   there are ten year old in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick."
There weren't then - there are now Al
One of the great things that has happened is that pupils of ten years ago are now teaching
Bit dismissive to describe it as garbage - you need to listen to standards now
Your description of Brimstone does him no favours
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:08 AM

dave swarbrick had to put up with that garbage all his life.

The usual line was,   there are ten year olds in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick.
Always by people who didn't have a clue about anything.

I remember with fierce joy the occasion when derek Brimstone was talking enthusiastically about a Scottish piper _ ithink, in Five Hand reel. Not my cup of tea...but anyway
What do YOU know about piping, said one of our celtic cousins
More than you, you cunt, said Derek. he'd served his National Service as a drummer in a pipe band.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM

"If i was to say there was more good instrumental music in county clare and county kerry and sliabh luchra than there was in every english county other than northumberland what would your reaction be?"
In my experience, I have never seen Irish music doing as well as it is doing at present and not just in the Counties you mention
The mass taking up of traditional music, while being patchy in places, seems to be nationwide - I would guess that it's those counties with a history of such muic that is leading the way
I think the major breakthroughs were first, the establishment of a music scool here in Miltown Malbay to honour the Memory of piper, Willie Clancy (now in it's 48th year I think - lost count)and the setting up of the Irish Traditional Music Archive
That has established a foundation based on the Tradition and guaranteed a future for the - yes - art form   
While I agree totally with Ray that it should not be a competition, I certainly believe that Ireland's success is an example to Britain as to what can be done when the musc is taken seriously
We attended a talk given by the Piper, Tommy Keane, on his father-in -law, fellow piper and concertina player, Tom McCarthy a couple of weeks ago
After the talk we listened to the McCarthy Family - children and grandchildren, playing superbly, I have little doubt that it won't be too long before the grandchildren's children will be playing as well
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM

Well that's the trouble with the whole thread.

Who can be the most pure in heart and fundamentalist?

Okay Jim, you've won.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:01 AM

Folk song and music is not a competition ~ although I know competitions do exist

Is it not an art form? ~ with or without use of instruments other than the voice

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:37 PM

JIM B , If i was to say there was more good instrumental music in county clare and county kerry and sliabh luchra than there was in every english county other than northumberland what would your reaction be?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:29 PM

I disagree with jim bainbridge.
I have just come back from bantry CCE session, run by musicians Tom Sullivan and Mary Tisdall, i had an enjoyable couple of hours.here they are playing on a different occasion with the mcauliffes.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qk9KDYjcRM
Jim Bainbridge is deluding himself if he claims that better music can be found in northumberland and sussex,that isthe sort of silly competitive suff that CCEis often accused of, Iwould say that the instrumental music is no better just differentlikewise the song side , both are good but different, thank god for that if we all played the same way it would be tedious

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM

No nit picking in the slightest, Jim.

Version 1. You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

Version 2. I said hat you advocated damaged folk music

Can you not see that those are 2 entirely different statements? If I had not have pushed you on it version 1 would have stood and people would have been left with the impression that what I do damages folk music. I am just suggesting that it you were more careful in your phrasing we could avoid a lot of misunderstanding and unnecessary discusdion. OK?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM

Howard,

It would appear from your post above that you are under the impression that Jim Carroll attends a UK folk club.

It would appear from his posts that he chooses to live in exile and hasn't set foot in an English folk club for years. But still believes in his own mind that he knows what is going on in them.

The club he mainly attended in London from 1966 I believe was the Singer's Club. If my memory is correct Jim said that it did not call itself a Folk Club, I guess that was because Ewan was more interested in Theatre.

The truth is that there is far more folk material of all descriptions from around the world readily available than EVER in the past. You no longer have to go to a club.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:22 PM

Jim Bainbridge wrote:-
"we had such eminent traditional performers as Paddy Tunney, Hedy West, Davie Stewart, Willie Scott, Fred Jordan, Bobby Casey and Billy Pigg.
From the 'revival' we booked such as Louis Killen, Matt McGinn, the Clutha, Dominic Behan and yes, MacColl and Seeger, Alex Campbell, Finbar & Eddie Furey & Christy Moore
We also enjoyed visits from Tom Paxton, Stefan Grossmann (a resident for a while) Don Partridge the one-man band"

Well, that was the sort of mix that I remember from my early days of running folk clubs. In Lewes, I booked 5 of the traditional performers that Jim mentions and quite a few that he doesn't - Jane Turriff, Lizzie Higgins, Belle & Alex etc. and the same range of revivalists as well. And we met a Geordie at the Blairgowrie festival, thought he was good so we booked him as well. He was not known in Sussex back then, but I raved about him to our audience for a few weeks before he came and we ended up with a full house for him. After that we booked him quite often over the next 40 years. His name? Jim Bainbridge.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:18 PM

"Northumberland or Sussex than in most Irish counties."
You edto get out more Jim
Kids are pouring in at a rate of knots and even the media is sitting up and taking notice
Northumberland is a good place for instrumental music, but friends who live there say it's patchy

"I am not trying to diminish the importance of authentic traditional song, "
A litle partonising I thing - but better than being "tolerated" I suppose
Most peopple did discover folk song via the revaival - I diin't know abybody who didn't apart from the traditional singers we met
Now that that is gone as a reliable source, one wonders where the next generation are going to discover it - if they do
"It is perhaps even harder now for young people to discover true traditional singing except on record"
The problem in a nutshell - what are we arguing about then !
I was never expecting to persuade anybody - but I come away from this totally enlightened as to the state of things, for which, thanks
Sorry Dave - I really can't be bothered to argue if you are going to nit-pick to make me dishonest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:06 PM

So, once again, you say one thing and mean another. Your exact phrase was

Dave
You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

I have already said that there is only one way I can interpret this. I do call what I do folk. You do not it folk and tell me that it is damaging 'real folk music'. "You choose to call what you do folk". That is the phrase you used. Not what I like or what I talk about but what I do. If you meant what I say or think, why did you not say that? You have had ample opportunity to put it right and getting to your actual meaning has been challenging. Not being pedantic or picky here. It is just that on here we only have words to convey our meaning and the choice of words is very important.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM

Our club at the Marsden Inn, South Shields was regarded highly in the 60s as a successful FOLK club.
Jim Sharp booked the guests, and we had such eminent traditional performers as Paddy Tunney, Hedy West, Davie Stewart, Willie Scott, Fred Jordan, Bobby Casey and Billy Pigg.
From the 'revival' we booked such as Louis Killen, Matt McGinn, the Clutha, Dominic Behan and yes, MacColl and Seeger, Alex Campbell, Finbar & Eddie Furey & Christy Moore
We also enjoyed visits from Tom Paxton, Stefan Grossmann (a resident for a while) Don Partridge the one-man band, the Jarrow based country trio the 'Three Eddies'(only two were called Eddie!!?) and the local Harton Colliery silver Band.
The residents' included songs & tunes from all the above, but also Bob Dylan, PP & M, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Ralph McTell & such.
We called it a folk club but never worried about what we did was 'folk' or not, and I think adopting the Stalinist approach from Jim carroll would certainly kill the music sooner rather than later.
Irish performers always thoroughly enjoyed their visit to UK folk clubs- people actually listened!Tim Lyons said Tyneside was his favoutite place to sing & play, and the idea that Ireland is a lost World of music is rubbish.

The music thrives in parts of Ireland but quite frankly as a former Irish resident (20 years) you'll find more good music in Northumberland or Sussex than in most Irish counties.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM

Howard, i was running a club, which i booked you at, I was resident and sang unaccomp-anied tradtional songs, i think this was long before the english country music weekends about cicra i973, it was certainly well before anything john howsopn organised, because that was not until 1980 how do i know well he was a neighbour of mine and i played in a band with him

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM

We can only go on our own experiences, and we should be cautious about drawing general conclusions from these. My experience has been that the folk clubs I occasionally attend now are not much different from the ones I attended more regularly 30 or 40 years ago - yours is apparently different. The balance of music I hear is much the same, largely but by no means exclusively traditional. The guests are often the same, together with some excellent young acts coming through. The audiences are certainly mostly the same individuals, but I know many young people who are involved in folk music, they are just not doing it in the same venues as us.

My point is simply that the folk clubs were always about more than just traditional song. They encompassed a broad range of other music, some of it with little connection to traditional song, but unified by a shared approach and style. This broad approach is nothing new, and if it is now a threat to traditional song it must also have been a threat during the boom years, and I simply don't believe this was the case.

I am not trying to diminish the importance of authentic traditional song, far from it. However the reality is that most people discover folk music through the revival, and for most that is sufficient. Only a few go on to discover the "real thing", and the world of folk clubs and festivals does little to steer them towards it. When I eventually discovered traditional singing in the 1970s it was not through folk clubs but through the English Country Music Weekends (which Rod Stradling was instrumental in setting up). It is perhaps even harder now for young people to discover true traditional singing except on record, but they then prefer to stream for free rather than buy CDs.

We are clearly not going to persuade one another, all I can say is that I am more optimistic about the future of folk than you are. Whether this includes folk clubs as we knew them is another matter.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM

"not that it has had much of a chance to be discussed -"
You seemed quite happy to discuss this before you left Vic
People seemed wuit happy to continue this particular aspect in your absence
Kevin Burke
We introduced Kevin to the Folk Club scene via three cubs I was involved in, The Singers, The west London Club and The Railway in Stratford East - he took to it like a duck to water and said in an interview that it was a pleasant change to play to attentive audiences - others, such as Tom McCarthy, who we also introduced to folk clubs, said the same

"Jim, you said what I do damages folk song."
I said hat you advocated damaged folk music - if \I at any timne said you, it was a general comment aimed at those who share your ';'anything goes' view
You already know this; you've said how you don't have the time or inclination to get involved in organisation
"I never 'do' them so how does that damage folk clubs?"
You put him up as being appropriate for the title 'folk'
Are you going ti include Led Zeppelin and The Dixie Chicks in that - as much as I admire the latter for their stand against Trump, I sincerely hope not
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:35 AM

Does "travelling soldier" by the Dixie Chicks bridge the divide between C&W and Contemporary folk?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:28 AM

The subject of this thread, "UK 60s Folk Club Boom?" - not that it has had much of a chance to be discussed - is dealt with in the context of the 80th birthday of Topic records in an article in the Spring 2019 edition of fRoots that dropped through my letter box this morning. Colin Irwin uses Norma Waterson as his main interviewee for the article and there are discussions of the role that Lloyd and MacColl played in what might be called Topic's second phase when the emphasis was on traditional performers and the Stewarts, Barry & Gorman and the McPeakes are mentioned before it goes on to the role that the label played in the careers of Carthy, the Watersons, Shirley Collins etc.
It is dense and well-written and there is a lot of information to serve as a reminder for those of us who were involved during these years and as a background for those who were not lucky enough to be around at that time.
In another article Kevin Burke reflects on the London Irish music scene in the 1960s which ran in parallel but was distinct from the folk club scene.
Al Whittle somewhere above rightly mentions the importance of Joan Baez to the 1960s club scene; she took a break during a recent farewell British tour to reminisce about her early involvement and that forms another interesting article in this issue.

There is also a lot of articles about the current vibrant folk and traditional scene in these islands - one on the excellent Rowan Rheingans, a feature on an adventurous new album Oran Bagraidh that brings together young Scots and Irish Gaelic-speaking singers and introduces a newly-researched form of Gaelic, called here "Galloway Gaelic" which appears to be unintelligible to the two more widely spoken forms of that language. Many will be in a well documented career perspective on Martin Simpson.
Then there are full-length reviews of over 100 recent albums and the same number of shorter pieces on lots others including some reissues of the classic Topic albums from the 1960s.
I find it indispensable and the 148 pages will keep me reading until the next one emerges.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:16 AM

Jim, you said what I do damages folk song. Not what I say or what I think. I take it the last response was another one of those about face moments. I should be used to them by now I suppose...

it's your "Ed Sheeran thing I can't get past

I like some songs by Ed Sheeran. I like some songs by Led Zeppelin. I like some songs by The Dixie Chicks, but I never 'do' them so how does that damage folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

"14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM "
I have Dave, several times
I have no problem with any of those - it's your "Ed Sheeran thing I can't get past
I've said the but, one more time
I I hwas at an evening where what you put up was the level of what happened - no problem; alitle limited maybe - the repertoire is much wider than those, but fine
It's not them I'm arguing against - it's everything else you and others are defending
Where does he fit in with any of those songs?tunes
Please don't raise this again - it's been sorted a long tiome ago as far as I'm concerned
I put up what I believe to be the features that identify folk songs - you keep saying you've responded - you really haven't
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:04 AM

not unlike Dave's: one minute it is "nothing has gone wrong, next it is exuses of why it has

It would be much better if you addressed my post 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM before making new allegations, Jim. That way there will be no confusion as to whatever point it is about me that you are trying to make. Keep it simple for us all. Address one point at a time.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

"This is a minority interest even among those who like folk music"
These are singers who have filled shelves of record shops from teh beginning of the revival, have merited records and record labels of their own and have filled entire sets of books and are continuing to do so the magnificent Carpenter Collection is now on line - from day one 'Folk' has been a minority activity, as has Shakespeare and Classical Music - that in no way diminishes their importance and ability to entertain - all of a sudden, the fact that they are a "minority activity" becomes and excuse for the exodus from the clubs and the often hostility shown towards them
If a magnificent 2 CD Sam Lerner set can only sell 3 copies of now unavailable, some unreleased material (we bought one) , something has gone severely wrong and it is irresponsible to suggest otherwise
Not a great sign that new blood is being attracted probably the most important genre op people's culture, is it ?

"I don't think the balance between traditionally sourced and other material has changed much"
Of course it has
You have ignored what I have said Howard - I described what the magazines and radio programmes covered and no longer do yet you repeat yourself without responding to what I put up
You excuses for what has gone wrong are not unlike Dave's: one minute it is "nothing has gone wrong, next it is exuses of why it has

"Perhaps it's time to calm down, sit back and enjoy the music again..."
Perhaps you should direct your comments to those who insult with terms like "folk police" and "inflexible"
I have fairly calmly put my case as coherently as I am able; I have insulted no-one and, to be honest, am enjoying watching people running around defending the indefensible   
At least we seem to have broken the barrier that has made discussion of these topics a no-go area up to now - a step in the right direction, I suppose, if a small one
Who knows, maybe I'll live long enough to see the groundbreaking work MacColl and Seeger did with The Critics as calmly as this - stranger things happen at sea, as my mam used to say
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

I would agree that declining standards play a part Howard and due to much higher standards at, as you point out, the other end, maybe audience tolerance of poorer standards has decreased too!

As you say, there are a number of reasons and they will all play their part.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM

Rod is selling recordings of authentic traditional singers, not of folk revival performers. This is a minority interest even among those who like folk music. These are not singers who would very often be heard in folk clubs, if at all. What he does, which is admirable, has nothing to do with folk clubs.

"You are not honouring you promise to your audiences by calling yourself what you do 'folk' - you are in fact talking about song club" If that is the case then most folk clubs have been misdescribing themselves from the 60s onwards.

The decline of clubs probably has a number of causes, but I don't think the balance between traditionally sourced and other material has changed much, so I doubt this is the reason. What puts me off many clubs is not any lack of traditional music but the decline in standards, which has been discussed at length elsewhere. This is ironic, because at the other end of the scale standards of performance appear to be higher then ever, and young performers have access to better instruments and better tuition than ever before.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:31 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLdYamFmM3g UNLIKE HOWARD I WAS INFLUENCED BY TRADITIONAL SINGERS ,WILLIE SCOTT BOB LEWIS HARY COX ETC

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Roger Moss
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

Nice to see that the spirit of semantic antagonism is still alive and well, after all these years.
My own point of view hasn't changed, either: during my folk club days and nights I'd happily enjoy live performances from The Young Tradition, John Renbourn, Ewan McColl, Malcolm Price, The Dransfields, Gerry Lockran... you name them.
As long as it was well performed with commitment and a dash of charisma I'd give it a chance, and so did most audiences back then.
Perhaps it's time to calm down, sit back and enjoy the music again...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM

""traditionally based""
You're luck if that still is the case, that's not what is being argued for here and is not generally the case - Rod Stradling's editorial has presented the consequences of that quite starkly
"also willing to listen to a very wide range of other music, "
TNothing wrong with that, but when iit's what happens at a folk club you are not honouring you promise to your audiences by calling yourself what you do 'folk' - you are in fact talking about song clubs
It is the confusion and decline that we are discussing
Here in Ireland, we have 'singing circles' where what goes on depends largely on the who turns up
If the area has had a strong singing tradition, you are bound to get a dominance of traditional songs, usually sung well
We are extremely lucky in that Clare has a powerful traditional song and music history and our local Circle in Kilshanny is run by a good singer with a strong feel for traditional songs and the intelligence to balance the evening out and book guests with who have a sense of the tradition
Some I've tried don't so I don't bother going back - that's not a criticism of them, just me exercising my personal taste
In England I no longer have that luxury, which is why so many of us stopped going to clubs when we realised we were being conned
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

Jim, the majority of the music I heard in folk clubs was "traditionally based" and still is. However the guests these clubs booked were folk revival singers - Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Tony Rose, and their ilk. For those of us who sang and played ourselves, our sources were books and these performers' LPs. Very few of us looked to authentic source singers such as Walter Pardon for our material, and only very rarely did they appear as performers at folk clubs. The folk scene I knew was very much centred on modern, and usually accompanied, interpretations of folk, rather than the "real thing", which many of us were not aware still existed.

Alongside the traditional songs, these audiences were also willing to listen to a very wide range of other music, even the occasional pop song, provided that stylistically it sounded like folk as performed in clubs (easier to recognise than define). It was an aesthetic judgement. This didn't seem to stop the clubs from thriving during the boom years, and neither did it crowd out traditionally-sourced material.

Did I like everything I heard? Of course not, but that applied to some traditional songs too. On the whole I think I'd prefer to hear a modern song performed well than a traditional song performed badly. I'd also prefer to hear a good song rather than a poor one, and "traditional" is not always an indication of quality.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

You got waylaid again, Jim. See 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM