Best Guitar for UK folk club?

Subject: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

OK. British folk music club. A room - usually in a pub - which holds 80ish people. No amplification. I want a guitar that will fill the room when playing a solo instrumental. That reponds well to finger and plectrum style. Price? Well, let’s say A) under £1000, and B) favorite choice of guitars - regardless of price - that you’ve owned/played.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:18 AM

(B) Any of my Chisholm guitars (custom made in Ditchling, Sussex). More practically, a Lowden - guaranteed to fill a room acoustically with clarityand projection from bass to treble. IMO of course...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Liamtho
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

My Taylor GS Mini is easily transportable, very loud and not too pricy at around £500

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:46 AM

The 'best' guitar is the one YOU like best.

People will come on here telling you what they like best. But that may not be what you like best. The best advice is that you get around a lot of music stores, try lots of guitars, and buy the one that you like best which falls within your budget.

FWIW, and whilst I agree with Will about Lowdens (I have two), you're not going to find one under £1k. You can get a used one for between £1k - £2k, but under £1k? Nah, it's not going to happen.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Liamtho
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:06 AM

Agreed Backwoodsman but I assumed that Jim was looking for a selection of guitars to try out.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:21 AM

I would agree with Will about the Lowdens being the clearest and loudist both in front of and behind the player BTW I don't have one but would like one but too expensive.
. I find a Martin 00016 parlor guitar does very well at smaller venues and is reasonable to carry

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:33 AM

I'm often surprised at the good build quality and sound of some of the sub-$1200 guitars from Martin and Taylor. Canadian Seagulls give a lot of bang for the buck also. As noted above, though, even in this age of CNC uniformity it comes down to the individual instrument. I have a 000-17 Martin that I got for around 1200 and it's tone and playability inspire me to play it almost as much as my more expensive guitars.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:51 AM

I'm not an acoustic player,
but I am aware Faith guitars have a good reputation for quality at a fair price.
They are a Barnes & Mullins British brand manufactured in the far east,
possibly given final set up and inspection in the UK,
and probably fairly well distributed to try out in shops...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 09:19 AM

Gillymor - Jim's apparently a UK-er, and has mentioned an upper limit to his budget of £1,000. Remember that American guitars cost, in the UK, roughly the same number of £'s as the number of $'s you'd pay in the US. So a $1,200 guitar would cost around £1,200 ($1,500-1,600) here. No 'Deep Discounts' in the UK guitar retailers' stores (or even from UK on-line dealers.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:32 AM

depends how big the room is.
what else is going on inside,
have a look round. see if theres anyone else doing what you want to do.

try the guitar. if it feels all right. get one like that.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:41 AM

My original reply about the Lowden was aimed at Jim's part B of the post:

B) favorite choice of guitars - regardless of price - that you’ve owned/played.

But Lowden's are pricey - I was lucky to get a s/h one recently - in perfect condition for its 23 years - for under £2,000.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:41 AM

Thanks for that info, BWM, I was vaguely aware of that situation over there but just putting in my 2 cents. Yamaha used to make some decent-sounding affordable acoustics but I'm not sure of the availability in that neck of the woods.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

Well, we've establish one thing. Lowden's are loud'ins.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 11:23 AM

If considering a good cheaper 2nd hand Yamaha - all your local region Cash Converters are worth a look...

Grab 'em off the wall and try 'em...

Pricing can be a bit variable depending on optimism/stubbornness of each shop's sales staff,
how much they know about guitars,
or how much effort they put into googling about them...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM

I have a guitar which fits the bill exactly. I cost me £190 and its a Martin. Unfortunately, that was in 1974 and it’s now 2019.

Seriously, ask 100 guitarists what the best guitar is and you’ll likely get 100+ answers. At that price point, the only way to find one will be to traipse around umpteen dealers but don’t expect something that you like in the shop to fit the bill once you get it in a large room. Guitars etc. sound different in different environments.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 01:01 PM

I'm not a guitarist. Well, not a good one! But lots of Yamahas are in evidence at folk clubs. One of my lads plays an APX-4 and that has the added advantage that you can plug it into an amp should the need arise.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,bignige
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:39 PM

Your wasting your time playing in room with 80 people in it without amplification. Sure you can hear the guitar but the immediacy that an acoustic guitar must have is gone. I would get a small battery powered acoustic amp and run your guitar through that. It doesn't need to be powering out just lift the sound to a point where listening is not strained.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Fyldeplayer
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:13 PM

Where is this fabled folk club room of 80 people - average around here is 25-30!
Take someone with you when trying. My friend bought a Sigma as back up for his Martin ( I can't tell the sound difference ). 3 same models in shop all slightly different, that's wood for you! I have liked the sound recently from Lowdens, Taylor's and Faith. Richards guitars in Stratford on Avon seem to offer a wide range. My Martin works well for gigs, use a tweak of small amp and my Recording King ROS16 is great for tight rooms and has a great thawk when pulled hard.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:28 PM

80 people without amplification? I remmeber sitting at the back of the audience for a live broadcast by John Williams. One musician, one nylon strung guitar, no amplification, 400+ in the audience and you could hear every note.

Everyone’s netting nesh. Folk clubs didn’t have amplification when I started!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

I didn't say that there was an audience of 80, I just mentioned a room that could hold 80 people. As you know, all that empty space has an effect on the room's acoustics, and this should me taken into consideration when deciding which guitar to buy.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:14 PM

After a long conversation with Roger Bucknall, he is a great lover of Yamahas, and so am I. In my experience for open tunings you can't beat a Fylde, but for regular tuning and a decent price, it's Yamaha every time. The Yamaha rosewood laminates are as good as some makers solid wood efforts for the sides. Look upon a Yam as raw material. Change the saddle for bone, the tuners for Grovers, and the end pegs for brass, and listen to it sing. With Martins, Gibsons and Taylors all you are paying for is the name on the headstock IMHO. Sorry!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM

i've got several yamahas.
you can get a solid rosewood. mine is the llx16bl, which cost about 650. and the Ac3r has rosewood back and sides - all solid wood.

which with your thousand quid budget should leave money for the posh machine heads. thats something i hadn't considered.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:49 AM

Eastman acoustic guitars seem to attracting good reviews. Has anybody out there come into contact with these guitars?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: banjoman
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:22 AM

My Lakewood would fit the bill but most of my others (Taylor, Ovation, Washburn etc.) and my range of banjos.
Its really a case of what you like.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:18 AM

Yam LLx16 looks nice. They have stopped making them though. No doubt there will be one around somewhere. I quite like the look of the sunburst.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Liamtho
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:43 AM

Sometimes I use a Larrivee L-09 loud and a nice even volume low to high - always a bit scared it might get nicked though.....

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 02:03 PM

As I said, ask 100 guitarists .......

I would agee that todays Martin and Gibson guitars (never really rated Taylor) have been overtaken by cheaper options which is why, in more recent years, I’ve always opted for the boutique builders. (I’ll have to admit it, for me, available space is more of a problem than price)

As for Yamaha, there are Yamahas and Yamahas. (I started with one of the old red label FG180s. Laminated (plywood) top and, if I hadn’t sold it and if the bloke I sold it to hadn’t stood on it whilst it was propped against the back of the stage, I expect it would have sounded the same today as when I bought it for £27 10s in 1970.)

There is the APX range. It’s their cheapo option; I think they all have electronics, and I’ve never played one acoustically that I’d give house room to. Then there was one I played at the trade show or, to be more accurate, I took out of its case as the rep was setting up his stand at a trade show. It had, clearly, not been out before. It was well set up, one of their hand built creations and I noticed that its serial number was actually No.1. I tuned it up and it sounded awful.

The last time I went out with someone to buy a “cheap” guitar he ended up with one from a maker I’d never heard of LAG. Good set-up, played nicely in tune all the way up the neck, good sound and plenty loud enough. Proves the point, at lower price points, ignore the names and use your ears.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:55 PM

The best projection I have encountered (in pub sessions) is a solid Takemine, strummed
with a firm pick but good in fingerstyle too. Second hand should be possible.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,GuestRS
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:03 PM

The Yamaha 800 series are spectacularly good for the price, the larger FG size would be the more powerful, volume-wise.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:51 PM

Interestingly, I owned a Sigma trade guitar, unbranded. It sounded OK and I played it one night at Pete Coe's club. Still reckon that a mid range Yam had the edge though. I also had a Levin for a while. Solid Top and Brazilian rosewood back and sides. It was OK, but was soon sold on. I use a Yamaha FG 365SE bought new in 1983 nowt to beat it.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:35 AM

Levins were nice.

The llx16 feels a bit like I remember them.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:22 AM

"My original reply about the Lowden was aimed at Jim's part B of the post:

B) favorite choice of guitars - regardless of price - that you’ve owned/played. "

My apologies Will, that went straight over my head. Duh!
All understood now.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:37 AM

No worries, BW!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:28 AM

It'd be tricky to play fingerstyle unamplified to an 80-person room. Maybe if you're wearing those metal nail picks...

I find mahogany guitars with a satin finish project well. I have several acoustics, and if I was playing unamplified and really needed volume I would use either my Recording King ROS-616 all-solid mahogany (OM shape) or my Harley Benton CLP15M (parlour model, solid mahogany top, laminate mahogany back and sides). Both have a satin finish and are noticeably louder than other lacquered guitars I have, though the CLP15M isn't really for strumming, sounds quite boxy when strummed.

While mahogany guitars have a justifiable reputation for sounding 'dark' they paradoxically have a very clear tone, which carries and projects very well. Both of the guitars I cited are as loud as any Lowdens I've ever played.

I'm always a bit disappointed by rosewood backs and sides, I find spruce/mahogany or mahogany/mahogany a preferable combination. But that's just me.

My latest guitar acquisition is a 13-fret-to-body 'Nick Lucas' style parlour guitar by Recording King and is lovely.
https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/recording-king-introduces-greenwich-village-13-fret-acoustic-guitar
That would also do the job, only not as well as the previously mentioned guitars.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 06:44 AM

I recently bought a parlour size Harley Benson CLP -15M Custom Line, guitar. It has a Mahogany top and sides.
I was unable to do much actual shopping and bought it online instead. I did look up many alternatives and was able to hear a sound track of many of them from online links. From those, I selected the above instrument. I have to say that it's bass is not exactly as I expected, having heard the link soundtrack, sounding a good deal "thinner". Otherwise it is a very nice guitar.
(I assume that the 15M refers to the 15 frets to the body that it has ?)

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

If you want more bass on that Harley Benton and you’re not too fussy about playing in concert pitch, try fitting 0.13-0.56 strings and detune them all down a tone.

The funny thing about mahogany guitars is that they can seem quite clear and trebly when you hit them hard but can sound very warm and bassy when you fingerpick them softly, using the flesh of your thumb for the bottom E string and picking with your right hand closer to the fretboard (as opposed to over the soundhole or near the bridge.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:54 AM

Awwwww , I have a friend for life. Matt, that is exactly what I wanted to know and why I entered this thread in the first place. Many thanks for your advice. I will be trying it out asap. Thanks again !

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM

Funny you should mention the Harley Benton.

I was looking at them before Christmas, but I got the Epiphone Sheraton in the end.

Their PRS copy is stunning. Bit too good to be true, I thought. Obviously not.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:45 AM

Big Al, yes I did wonder how "reliable" those soundtracks on the adverts are but, in fact , apart from the bass E the other strings do sound as good ,even without amplification, as the advert. Matt's solution is well worth a try, wouldn't you say ?
Supposing I was to change only the bass E string (for tension balance, perhaps the top E' also ) could that be a refinement of the solution that might work ?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:14 AM

Try a Guild or a Faith for value and performance

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:28 AM

Parlour size guitars ?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM

Would a palour sized guitar be anywhere near as loud as a dreadnought, or is "projection" an element that can top "loud".
The bluegrass boys talk about dreadnought"cannons" that are, so-called" "banjo killers".
I am talking about "loud" because, so often, in folk music clubs, I wish that I could turn up the voume on performers guitars by at least 50%. And, I swear, that extra 50% is the difference between holding the audiences attention...or not.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 11:25 AM

Don’t make the mistake of equating size to either volume or bass response. Two of my guitars (well three actually, but I digress) are by the same builder. One is a drednaught and the other an OM. The dred. is my go to guitar for sessions as it can compete with anything, however, the best bass response comes from the OM. As with other things (so I’m told) size doesn’t really matter.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM

I should add that the dred is strung with mediums and the OM with lights.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:31 PM

When talking about how and why guitars sound like they do, it's always interesting to read the articles by Ervin Somogyi. His guitars are visually and aurally stunning. I could never in a million years afford on - which doesn't bother me in the slightest - but the technical detail he brings to the theory behind design and build is fascinating to read. Some of these articles are well worth a read:

http://esomogyi.com/articles/

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:43 PM

Will, there is a nice series of interviews with guitar makers by Michael Watts on YouTube including an interesting one with Ervin Somogyi.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:44 PM

I could probably afford the £20,000 or so they generally go for but the marginal improvement in sound quality over the instruments I already own isn’t worth it; plus would I really want to drag one along to a local session?!

To may people, price seems to be a major issue. The way I think of it is that if you’re prepared to spend several thousand pounds for a car which you leave to rot away on the drive or street outside, why are you not prepared to spend a similar amount on a guitar which, over the same period, costs less to run, will improve with age and probably be worth more than you originally paid for it. I certainly know what I’d choose.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:44 PM

You want louder..

might be time to google "acoustic guitar with built in speaker"...

but then, there's always good old fashioned resonators..

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:48 PM

I'm not particularly bothered about Somogyi's instruments - it's really his ideas that I find interesting.

Thanks for the heads-up on the YouTube interviews, Jim - I'll check them out.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:52 PM

my cars worth about £120.....given a generous offer.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: C-flat
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 08:55 AM

I regularly use a small-bodied Recording King in similar sized rooms to that you describe Jim, and find it punchy and well balanced at both high and low end.
I'm using slightly heavier gauge strings than I normally would which also adds to the overall output.
Recording Kings "ROS" range are deceptively louder than their size would suggest and there are some real bargains to be had.
Mine cost £250 a couple of years ago and is an absolute gem of a guitar.
I own other more expensive instruments, one in particular is a steel-strung Manuel Rodriguez which is the closest thing to a Lowden I've played (without being a Lowden. I would say the RK is every bit as loud, if not more so.
Try one. You might hate it. I love mine.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

The only thing that bothers me about
Somogi guitars is the base price of 39K.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM

Somogyi, at that price you'd think I'd get the name right.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:54 AM

.. at that price they're definitely "Someotherguy" guitars...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:27 PM

C-sharp: you are clearly my long-lost brother in a guitar-shaped parallel universe. I agree with everything you say about Recording King guitars. And the ROS series in particular. I use 0.13-0.56 strings on them, and often detune down a semitone or tone. I’m a total Recording King evangelist. (Except for their newer models, that is… they’ve let themselves down a little on some of them…!)

I own a ROS-616, all solid mahogany OM size, 12-frets to body, which is frankly one of the nicest sounding and playing guitars I have ever touched. I bought it new in 2013, for £340. I sometimes go to big guitar expos and take it with me: I can pick up a £2000 luthier-made guitar and compare it to the ROS-616, and the 616 always wins. It has a beautiful tone. And it is as loud as any dreadnought I’ve yet tried.

I bought a ROS-06 last year as a cheapo ‘beater’ guitar so I wouldn’t damage my beloved 616 at sessions and open mics. Same size and dimensions as the 616, but solid spruce top and laminate mahogany back and sides. But even the 06 is still a very good guitar. Cost me £120 secondhand with a hard case. It is a very ‘beefy’ sounding guitar, with a chunky classical shaped neck. Sounds actually quite dreadnoughty for an OM.. It doesn’t project as well as the 616, but is still a loud guitar. The bottom few strings can sound a little dead at times – it walks a fine line between sounding warm and sounding a bit dead. But I replaced the bridge pins with brass ones (which made a very small difference) and just make sure I change the strings on it more often than I would normally. (Whereas I hardly ever bother changing the strings on the 616 and it still sounds good)

Most recently I bought an RNJ 26NA ‘Greenwich Village’/ ‘Nick Lucas’ model. It’s a parlour guitar, 13 frets to body, solid spruce top, solid mahogany back and sides. Sounds wonderful. Quite a bright tone but very sweet, not harsh at all. I didn’t think I would ever play a guitar I liked as much as the 616 but the RNJ26 is a lot of fun and really growing on me. It is deliberately deeper than the average parlour, which gives it a little bit more bass and volume.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Matt milton
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 07:00 PM

Jim, you asked about Eastman... I have played some eastmans. They are clearly quality guitars with balanced tone and are comfortable to play but I find them a bit lacking in mojo. I couldn’t get excited about them. I think I like a bit of crudeness to my guitars. Eastman, Taylor, faith and others just don’t do it for me. Whereas Recording king, Sigma, the Loar, and some Guilds I have played are much more up my street. I like guitars with a bit of ‘thunk’ and ‘plunk’

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 09:15 PM

It took me a while to remember the name..
But, Blueridge guitars..

What happened with them...???

A decade ago they were the brand folks were talking about
in terms of better quality cheaper acoustic guitars...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:52 AM

These days with pressure seasoning (and measuring) coupled with laser cutting and decent glues, many of the £100 to £300 brand new big names made under licence in Chinese OEM factories are wonderful. I’d put my Alvarez ARD70 (cost £350 new) against my Terry Pack (£1500 new) any day of the week.

I’d say the best guitar for the U.K. folk clubs should have the following qualities;

It will pick up the occasional dink and scratch. Don’t take your mint condition Santa Cruz.

The neck must be comfortable for your style. If you pick and strum as well, a dread’ should have the volume for the picking and not get boomy when strumming although that’s subjective. Jumbos do that but get in the way when I stand up to go to the bar..,

If you use alternative tunings, you are already accomplished enough to put thought into your choice.

Me? Whilst I have a fair number of guitars, for popping out to folk clubs I tend to use whichever is behaving... But if I am at a festival with a backpack soft case and busy singarounds to squeeze into, I bought a cheap and cheerful Sigma GME for £200 new the other year. It is based on a Martin OM, is small but rather loud and the build materials mean it stays in tune between warm humid pubs and cold dry walking between. (I have used it on stage too for the “in tune” qualities and plugged in, it may as well be what it pretends to look like.)

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Matt milton
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:06 AM

Yes, sigma guitars are great.

Someone mentioned Blueridge. they are also very good guitars in a Martin or Montgomery Ward pre-war style. They have a big following, there’s a whole chat forum dedicated to them. In my opinion Recording King are basically Blueridge but better designed and cheaper.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

My current best guitar is a Fender Paramount. Adirondack spruce top. mahogany sides and back.

My first really good guitar was a Fender F85. Full circle.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:04 AM

There is a busker I sometimes see at a nearby 7-11 who plays an unamplified Ovation w/ a shallow lycrachord back and a spruce top w/ a round sound hole which is surprisingly loud in his hands.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:14 AM

Last evening , at a pub session, I met a bloke with a 3/4 size VINTAGE Guitar. Has anyone come by one of these ? I haven't seen the brand previously. Unamplified it resonated beautifully and, it has a bass E "thump" to wonder at, since it is just about the standard 4" deep body ?
It also has a pick-up installed and has a set of light gauge strings on.
He would sell but, in what price range would it fall ? I paid Euro200 for the Harley Benton and I reckon that I can get the same for it, to offset, say a E300 offer for the Vintage ?? Any advice ?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:29 AM

Vintage is a brand name of John Hornby Skewes. The only thing I had of their brand was a Romanian built mandolin. Very cheap and with slotted tuning pegs but with good volume for the money. Pretty much the same model could also be found in Stentor's range under the Ozark brand.

Harley Benton gets a mention here and I think that's one of Thomann's brands... Ah wikipedia on Harley Benton guitars. ~As well as mentioning Thomman, I find:

Harley Benton guitars are manufactured in around 20 factories in the Far East; these include factories in China, Indonesia and Vietnam. According to Harley Benton, they are manufactured alongside and to the same standards as guitars for major brands such as ESP, Fender, Ibanez and Jackson

I guess a fair amount of good value equipment can come under these labels for music wholesalers and major retailers.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:59 AM

I'm not a player and have no views to offer on this but as a member of audiences in small venues the brand name I see most often is Takamine. Blues players obviously go for National resonators or copies or the Gibson/Fender electric or their cheaper clones. However, there are so many other brands I see that really it is just personal choice, surely non-one can choose for someone else.
RtS

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:08 AM

The 3/4 size 'Vintage' branded guitar is probably one of a series designed by Paul Brett (Paul Brett Sage, Crazy World of Arthur Brown, Freelanders, and a number of other 60s and 70s bands). They are very nice little guitars and play very well indeed - as you would expect of an instrument designed by a highly-experienced and very well-respected musician.

https://www.jhs.co.uk/products/guitars-folk-instruments/acoustic-guitars/vintage/paul-brett-series

http://www.paulbrettguitarist.co.uk

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

Thank you Guest, Roger and Backwoodsman. No, I don't expect anyone to choose a guitar for somebody else but it is helpful to hear of all your experiences in the matter of the myriad brands that are available. The fact that many of them can be related to one particular, larger corporation can be a help also.
Yes, the Harley-Benton that I have is from the Thomann company.

Many, many thanks again to each of you for your kind assistance.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:40 AM

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:20 AM

I `ad that Jim Moron in my cab the other day. `e was scanning through a great pile of guitar catalogues and making copious notes on certain pages. So engrossed was `e that I could `ave taken `im to `ighgate and `e wouldn`t `ave noticed.
I said, "Morning Ivor. You `aving problems on `ow much to do on a guitar then?"
`e said, "No Jim, I `m trying to decide which guitar, is all round best, for using at gigs. As you know, venues and audience numbers can differ widely affecting the acoustics. Look at this lot. Do I go for a Martin with its rich notes, a Gibson for its shiny finish, a penetrating Faith Dreadnought, a Hofner cello style, excellent for band work, any of the less well known custom but costly models?. It`s such a puzzle. You`re the guitarist with your lot. What would you recommend?"
I said, "After `aving my vintage `armony Sovereign knocked arse over `ead causing serious damage by someone `oo shall remain nameless, there`s only one."
`e said, " Go on. What one`s that then?"
I said, "Somebody elses!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:18 PM

I 'd rather not say, knowledgeable Jim ! :-)

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM

Theres a Vintage dreadnought in a dorchester pawnbroker/jewellery shop. he only wants 40 quid for it. Its been there for weeks.
needs new strings, but its lovely.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

If it wasn't for the "Sea around us" Big Al, I'd be on me bike already. I hope some lucky catter gets it.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:24 AM

A mate of mine bought one of the Vintage branded small guitars and he wasn’t impressed so he sold it. I also went to a Paul Brett promoted concert a few years ago where he was promoting some of his “Vintage” line including the Gordon Giltrap model. Needless to say, Mr G wasn’t playing one!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

Whoever chose the name "Vintage" as a brand name were crackers!
   Put "Vintage Guitar" into any search engine - or Ebay, for example - and guess what you get.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:54 PM

..unless you are actually looking for a Vintage branded guitar..
then it's not so clever...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:11 AM

I thought that was the whole idea about calling them “Vintage”.

Unfortunately, the tem vintage is misused and misunderstood. The term originally stems from “the age of wine”. If a bottle was produced in 2018 and it says so on the label, it’s vintage but who would call a guitar with 2018 on the label, vintage?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM

Were they trying to say that their guitars bearing the "Vintage" logo were made precisely as their original ones were, design, materials etc ? I know the term shouldn't really cover those circumstances but I'll bet it probably lured quite a number of purchasers. It was the sound that "lured" me.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:09 AM

Well, the Vintage people clearly aren't trying to fool buyers because a real vintage - i.e. old - guitar wouldn't have the word "vintage" on the headstock, but if somebody was searching for vintage brand guitars, on Ebay, say, they would have to wade through a pile of old - so-called - vintage guitars to find what they want.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM

Tunesmith - I have several "Vintage" electric guitars I bought cheap off ebay about 10 - 15 years ago...

[mostly ex shop demo & B stock..]

They are a mixture of fair to very good quality budget price instruments...

Quality control [cosmetic flaws, and fret & wiring shortcomings..]
was a bit variable from one guiar to another,
even after Trevor Wilkinson joined the JHS team;
and the guitars became equipped with his better manufactured componenets...

Though a couple do have far better finished fret ends than most new guitars I pick up in shops...

But as we have both said, searching for the brand could be a tedious chore..
Though, I suppose a 'bonus' is, I did see plenty of photos and descriptions of fantastic old guitars
I could never afford to own...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 09:17 PM

Jim Moran wrote:

> Price? Well, let’s say A) under £1000, and B) favorite choice of guitars - regardless of price - that you’ve owned/played

Have to say I sold all my sub-£1000 guitars along the way, nothing there I would particularly go back to... I have found that I am really a jumbo/dread sort of player, in love with that bass rich sound I guess. My main guitar for volume+tone is a 70s Martin (D-35, rosewood, thin top bracing) while previously I had a 60s D-18 (mahogany, a bit more "jangle", a bit less "richness") that was also good for projection. I am guessing these can be had in the UK for around £2-2.5k from that vintage but you have to take care in choosing because the quality was variable particularly in the 70s - but a good one is a good one (with 40+ years of ageing) and to me they seem like excellent value still. I also *love* the extra rich sound of the 12-fret models (D-18S, D-35S) but they do not come up very often - very lush and piano-like, though you may miss access to the 2 highest frets, depending on your style.

Best guitar I have ever heard in the flesh: probably an 000-size Chris Melville (Australian maker) owned/played by Tony McManus, I would say - at least for that ringing, celtic style he plays. About 3-4x the cost of an equivalent Martin, though, so not all that practicable for many persons... Also Dave Burland's original 60s Epiphone Texan (absolutely beautiful tone+volume). I have owned some original Gibsons and Epiphones but while they can have a beautiful tone and playability, in general they do not have the projection of the Martins. Just my experience, in over 40 years of playing, buying, and swapping... I also have a couple of nice hand made guitars, but the Martin dread is still my "go to" in an unamplified situation.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:33 AM

I've been meaning to ask Dave when I see him, why he does not use the 'Texan' any more. I suspect he needs electrics hence the Lowden and Faith I've seen him use. Pity!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 08:07 AM

" B) favorite choice of guitars - regardless of price - that you’ve owned/played."

Of the ones I've owned, the ones I play most of the time these days- 000 12 fret Boucher (Rosewood/Adirondack) which is great for fingerstyle and flatpicking old time tunes and a Bourgeois Slope D (Mahogany/Adirodack) which I use mostly with a flatpick but also shines as a louder fingerpicker.

Of the ones I've played, there is the 1930 OM-28 Martin I used to play at lunch break in The Guitar Shop in D.C. until they banned me from their "vault". And a Greven Jumbo (Maple/Sitka) that a friend up in Maryland still owns, every time I play it I'm overwhelmed by it's enormous sound.
Honorable mentions go to a S35 Lowden I played in SLC and I still kick myself for not finding a way to buy it and a Martin Norman Blake 12 fret (but with a 14 fret style square shoulder body) seemed like it could do a lot of things well.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:35 PM

Owned/played? My current 3 favouritrs are all by Santa Cruz (a TR, an F and an OM/PW) They sound totally different and each has it’s particular job to do.

I’ll be taking the F out tonight and I’ll likely be playing mandolin most of the time but that’s another story.

What happened to your old J45 Tony?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:04 PM

Hi Ray, you mean this one:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1958565531114752&set=pb.100008839727006.

(not a J45 but a Southern Jumbo) - sold to finance a plane ticket for someone to come out to Australia 20+ years ago - a lovely guitar but since I presently have 3 nice acoustics, 2 purchased since, I cannot really complain...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 04:46 AM

Yes, that’s the one - I probably have a picture of you entertaining the traffic with it on the streets of Rouen. Ah, the week of French letters!!!
R

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM

Do cedar tops last as long as spruce?

I wonder because my old Epiphone Texan (1964 vintage), lovely guitar thoug it was, had a cedar top which "died", i.e. lost a lot of its resonance and clarity after I'd had it for 40 years. Coincidentally, my luthier buddy Ian had a J45 of similar age - sister guitar, almost to the Texan - and that top died in a similar way.

Having said that, Wizz Jones still play a Texan of a similar age, and it sounds OK. And my 22-year old Lowden - mahogany back & sides - has a Western Red Cedar face and sounds excellent. Many luthiers I've talked to search out face woods from particular years, when the weather patterns produced well-grained and resonant woods. Perhaps my Texan and Ian's J45 - both made in Kalamazoo at the Gibson factory around the same time - used wood from indifferent years...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

Too many variables! I’ve never come across a guitar top “dying” without explanation. Could be a structural issue, bad/wrong strings or something atmospheric (e.g. high humidity).

A luthier will look for narrow, straight, quarter sawn timber but I can’t see them searching out the best years for tonewood. A good guitar top has maybe a couple of hundred years of growth in it; it doesn’t come from any particular year.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

Here's Dana Bourgeois on soft tops (cedar and redwood)-

https://bourgeoisguitars.net/our-news/guitar-guru-soft-top-woods-and-durability/

From the article-

"Other builders, such as Lowden and Olson, make cedar guitars that put smiles on many players’ faces, and will also last as long as their spruce cousins."

He doesn't seem to go into the longevity of the tone quality.
This interests me because I have a 32+ year old L27F Lowden (can't read the serial number for the preamp installed on the neck block) purchased new in 1987. I don't play it much any more as the string spacing doesn't suit me though the action is very low and clean but I do get it out for visitors and it still stacks up nicely next to other quality instruments. After what I've heard about Cedar tops I sometimes wonder if the sound is fading but fresh strings dissuade me from that notion.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 07:36 AM

That link didn't work. Here ya go-

https://bourgeoisguitars.net/our-news/guitar-guru-soft-top-woods-and-durability/

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 11:25 AM

Cedar? Our shed sounds much the same as the day we built it!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM

So my cedar top Art & lutherie [200 quid 20 years ago]
which I rarely touch more than once every couple of years,
would sound a whole lot better with a generous coating of creosote...???

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:19 PM

Hi Will Fly,

I am 99.99% certain that Gibson never used cedar for its tops in the 60s/70s/(?80s) or before - all spruce - so this would apply to both the Epiphone (Gibson) Texan and J45 you mention. So if there is an issue, it is certainly not due to the species of the timber used. And no, the tops should not "play out" - in general, 50s ones are considered better (now and possibly then as well) than 60s, 40s than 50s, and 30s than 40s. (20s are different because often they were not braced for steel). The most desirable and expensive vintage steel string guitars today come from the 30s (both Martin and Gibson) and there is no suggestion that the tops are "too old" or "played out"... e.g. take a look at

https://cartervintage.com/collections/acoustic-guitars?sort_by=price-descending

Just sayin'!

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM

A typical original 60s Epiphone Texan for sale and described here, price seems also about typical, no affiliation:

https://www.mansons.co.uk/product/pre-owned-1965-epiphone-ft-79-texan-natural-10655

Definitely spruce top, mahogany back and sides (same as Gibson J-45 and J-50 of the period, also SJ and SJN...)

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 07:58 PM

Nick. You will be interested to note that when Dave Burland played at our club recently, out came the Texan. I was sound engineer and wanted to mic it to get that distinctive sound but he uses his practice amp as a fold back so he plugged in and I d.i’d out of the amp.

Funnily enough, I ran the desk for Wizz Jones last year and his Texan he has had for fifty plus years came out. His “distinctive” sound is a cheap glued in 1960’s transducer. He plugged that to his AER behind him for monitor and I d.i’d outbof it but I also ran a mic and blended them. All good stuff.

The point for us all here is that two musicians admired for more years than many of us would admit to are still using the guitars they played when The Beatles were playing The Cavern Club. Once you are happy, stay happy.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:42 PM

Good advice. I suppose having an alternative guitar does give your favourite a rest. Funny that I can't find any YouTube video of Dave using the Texan. I'll have another look.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:53 AM

Nice pic of D. Burland plus his Epiphone Texan by Bryan Ledgard (doesn't move though) here... you have to imagine the sound!

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dave_Burland_(239253069).jpg

- Tony

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:17 AM

Jack Hudson used a Texan back in the '60s/'70s and perhaps the '80s, and it was a great-sounding guitar. The last time I saw him play - at The Brown Cow in Mansfield in the early 'Noughties', he'd 'retired' the Texan and was playing a cheap-ish unknown-brand Dread he'd picked somewhere. He told me the Texan was too precious to him to risk taking it out.

I've spoken to him quite a few times since, and I seem to recall that he'd put the Texan up for sale to raise some money.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

Jack replaced the Texan, with a handmade guitar by the guy who used to service his guitar.

Steve something living round Burton Joyce.

Later he bought a beautiful solid wood Tokai J45.

But he kept the expensive one.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

Aaaahh, I reckon that'll be Steve Clark. Wonder if Steve's still working, can't find a website or FB Page for him.

Another good builder around that area is Colin Keefe - he did some work on a Martin for me years ago.

I didn't know about Jack's 'new' guitars but, now he's pretty much retired from performing, our paths don't really cross.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM

yes sadly, but we all get old.

I'm feeling the years myself. I stopped gigging a few weeks ago God knows what I'll do with all these guitars PA systems etc.

I'm filling the time with learning the ukulele. I've joined the George Formby Club.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM

Al - I need to get round to culling the herd...

Reverb is a newish site in UK for selling music gear.
At first it ws a way to avoid all he rip offs of ebay, but aparently the crooks from ebay have now migrated there as well..

Still, for any risks, I guess it's still beter than being blatantly robbed selling to cash converters...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:53 AM

I recorded a quick video of my latest guitar acquisition, the Recording King RNJ26 NA.

As Sylvie Was Walking on a Recording King RNJ 26 NA

The guitar is based on the Gibson acoustic known as the 'Nick Lucas Special' made by Gibson in the 1930s (maybe even 20s?). It's a parlour shape but with a deeper body and the neck joins the body at the 13th fret (not the 14th). It's solid spruce top, solid mahogany back and sides. Plays really comfortably, has a sweet tone and it really rings - it seems to just generate harmonics and overtones all on its own.

My vid doesn't really do the guitar's tone justice; I should have positioned the mics nearer the guitar as they are picking up too much voice (so much so that it slightly distorts in places) and so the guitar sounds a little more muted than it actually is. You can hear the basics of its tone though.

I really love this guitar. Everyone loves a secondhand eBay bargain and this one only cost me £240! Unbelievably, nobody else bid for it.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:56 AM

looks li9ke a nice guitar.
the sound recording thing on most cameras is rubbish.. its best to borrow an acoustic amp, if you're making a recording in that way.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM

PFR

Let me enlighten you as to the process.

You spend years building up your collection.

Your better half gets fed up of cases under beds etc.

You promise to cull the herd.

It goes quiet on the domestic scene.

You add another guitar to the herd on the basis of checking what one of yours is worth makes you see other guitars for sale.

Buy bigger house.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 10:38 AM

There's the old chestnut

"what's the optimum number of [name your instrument]"

"One more than you've got already"

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Liamtho
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 11:12 AM

I heard of a guy that used to buy a guitar, sneak it into the house and put it in the attic then later ask his wife to help him get a guitar out of the attic.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 11:20 AM

When wife imposed a two out for one in policy I'd stash new acquisitions in the closet where I keep my fishing gear (old waders, boots and such) as I was fairly confident she'd never go near it. Worked well until she got wise to it.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM

I must have The Wife in a Million. Every guitar I've bought (including five high-end Martins and three Lowdens) since we got together in the mid-90s has been with, not only her blessing, but her active encouragement.

I'm a lucky guy.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 12:01 PM

For a long time I only bought black, or occasional red, guitars.
She never noticed the new ones.
Then I stopped being stingy about buying guitar bags and cases.
Realising I could hide any colour I liked in them...

Now I'm a proper grown up old bloke,
I mostly buy classic tobacco/sun bursts semi-acoustics befitting my mature stature...

She actually likes the look of them...
But hopefully still thinks they are all the same guitar...???

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 01:34 PM

My wife has horses; I tell her guitars are cheap by comparison. Since she bought her most recent horse four years ago, I have bought two...

A few years ago, I wanted a video camera. Same day, she found 2 ponies that needed a home. You can guess the rest...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM

Yep, it's the cases she minds, not the instruments.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:47 PM

I’ll echo that Gillymor.

We have a box room off a spare bedroom. She calls it her ski cupboard. I call it the case cupboard. This is where matrimonial harmony can sound as if we haven’t quite got the intonation 100% yet....

At present, the skis are with us in Canada but I don’t get a chance to add more cases because I’m here with the skis.... T’was ever thus.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:23 AM

I paid 700 quid for a B stock Fender Paramount PM1 mah Adirondack last year.. The prices of it seem to plunging, for whatever reason.

I think its one of the best guitars I ever played.

Heres a new one for a hundred quid less. Second hand ones are to be had for 450 quid.

I can't imagine better value for money coming up for while.


https://www.guitar.co.uk/fender-paramount-pm-3-limited-adirondack-triple-0-mahogany

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 12:57 PM

Punkfolkrocker - Sorry I’ve been “way up north” for the last week and had no interthingy.

You only need to use creosote if you intend to leave it outside for any length of time.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM

BEST GUITAR FOR UK FOLK CLUB IMO

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

Reminds me of old codgers playing air telephone.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 09:37 AM

From the first few seconds watched without sound..

It looks like young folks indicating what they think of old folkie tossers...???

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 10:56 AM

What with loop pedals, tablet scrolling lyrics and the like, surely it’s only a matter of time before people turn up with orange oven mitts at clubs and open mic sessions.
Out of interest, what is the string spacing width at the nut for that Fender Paramount?
It does sound like a bargain, but if I buy any more, I’ll have to resort to renting a hotel room and visiting them on the quiet.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:14 AM

Jim - a lot of folkie guitarists can only aspire to play their instruments as well
as 'eavy metal air guitarists...!!!


Everyone else - I just got a news email from guitarguitar.co.uk
that they're knocking down prices on Yamaha acoustics
[over £100 on some models approx £700..]

They're probably not the only shop doing this,
so worth googlig and shopping around for better deals...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 12:29 PM

"folkie guitarists can only aspire to play their instruments as well
as 'eavy metal air guitarists...!!!"
Would they only leane to keep the volume down to that level :->
On the other hand, woud the HM mob aspire to the same level of mucicality as folkies
Jim

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM

I'm sorry i don't know how to measure the nut. theres nothing about it in the little book, fender supplied with the guitar.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 02:27 PM

To argue one genre is superior to another is a subjective opinion.
In terms of sheer effort surely a composer that creates for an entire orchestra would have to win hands down over a simple illiterate peasant folk tune. Which of the two is the superior is down to personal taste. It is rather like a fine wine. A master sommelier may praise it to the heavens but others may compare it to swigging battery acid. To illustrate further I enjoy most of Ewan MacColl's songs providing he is not the one performing them. I like and can appreciate his creative artistry, but I simply do not like his voice.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:11 PM

I don't belieeeeeeeeve it! For the first time ever (and very likely the last) I completely agree with everything Iains says in his post.

Al - a ruler is the best way to measure the nut, either the full width, or the width from the centre of the low 'E ' to the centre of the high 'e', which is what I believe GUEST: Jerry is after.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 06:31 PM

Thanks BWM for that explanation

the total width of the nut is 4.2cm
from the middle of the 6th string to the middle of the first slot seems to be 3.8cm
I think!

My model is the dreadnought PM1. Obviously the others might be very different.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:14 AM

I've been hesitant to join this thread, considering my meagre impact on the guitar market,...-Oh, and skill level, of course, but...
for value for money I'm a fan of J&D, or nowadays Jack and Danny Brothers acoustics. Made strong and heavy in Taiwan, they have a following online, and recommendations there for strings.
Mine cost the equivalent of 50quid online and is my favourite of 3, including one Taylor.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:16 AM

I should have said, it is about 45years since I set foot in a UK folk club, though.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:50 AM

the folk clubs are in our heads.

even the ones that exist. they mean different stuff to different folks.

you could live your life in igloo at the north pole, but still retain a corner of your mind that's a UK folk club.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:35 AM

"the total width of the nut is 4.2cm
from the middle of the 6th string to the middle of the first slot seems to be 3.8cm
I think!"

4.2 cm, or 42 mm, is 1-5/8" which is the same as my Strat's nut-width - a bit narrow for an acoustic guitar. The spec on Guitar.co.uk website says 43 mm, which is the more usual width for an acoustic guitar of 1-11/16", so I think your measurement might be a millimetre off.

That string-spread of 38 mm matches the spread on my Martin HD-28V which has a 43 mm (1-11/16") nut-width.

So the Paramount seems to have a bog-standard 43 mm nut and 38 mm spread.

I think! ;-)

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:48 AM

Thanks for the measurements, guys. It sounds like standard Fender width, which is too narrow for me, since I lost the end of my index finger. It might sound trivial, but the extra 1-2mm makes all the difference, and especially for fingerstyle players. I suspect that this accounts for the low prevalence of Gibsons and Fenders amongst the folk fraternity, compared to say Taylors, Lowdens, and others mentioned above.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:00 AM

It's amazing to me how much difference 1/16" makes in the nut width and the string spacing in the feel of a guitar. I traded off a wonderful-sounding Collings 00 because the 1 13/16" nut and 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle made me feel like I was working too hard (the pronounced "V" neck had something to do with it as well) whereas a 1 11/16" nut feels too cramped for me with my fairly large hands. I've finally settled on 1 3/4" nut and 2 3/16" saddle spacing as my comfort zone.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:47 AM

actually the guitar was pretty crap when it had an 11 1st string.

the revelation was when i put extra lights on, that's when the light came on.

as it is - its the best of my bunch.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:53 AM

I think they only put 11s on to make small guitars sound louder, when they are usually better and more expressive (for note bends and snaps) with extra light strings, to my mind.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:59 AM

Errrrrrmm.....11s are 'extra lights'.

Personally, the absolute lightest string I'd use on an acoustic would be 'Lights', 12-53 or 54. I have those on the Lowdens. Anything less is just too 'weedy' in both sound and feel, AFAIC.

On my Martin Dreads, I always have 'Mediums' - 13-56. A Dread needs Mediums to drive the top.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:16 AM

30 odd years ago, heavier strings tore the bridge and a lot of laminate soundboard
off my mid 1970s Shaftsbury [Eko manufactured ?] acoustic...

[my first, and for a long time, only guitar..]

That was a surprise to wake up to.. it was perfectly alright the night before...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM

The gauges I'm using are the ones recommended by the builders for the guitars in question, pfr. I'm pretty sure they know something! ;-)

When strings 'tear the bridge off' a guitar, I reckon it says more about the quality of the instrument, or the lack of care taken by the owner re: humidification, temperature, and selecting appropriate gauges, than it does about the strings themselves!

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 09:54 AM

BWM - yeah, that guitar was my xmas present from parents, 1973 when I turned 15...
A Shaftesbury acoustic [EKO manufactured...??]
They bought it on instalment plan from my mum's home shopping catalogue,
the same one we got our clothes from;
and some years earlier, I first noticed an interest in the pages of women's scanty underwear
models...

I learned to play on that guitar, trying and failing to finger pick like Donvan..
and after fitting a Schaller soundhole pickup, gigged with it in my first rock bands...

You're right, the finer points of guitar maintenance were a complete mystery to us small town kids..
There was no youtube back then, not even any guitar lessons at school.
That was frowned on.. the only activities encouraged were rugby and military cadets...
or school orchestra and choir for the 'softer' boys..
Definitely no teenage revolution guitar playing allowed...

If it wasn't for my dodgy weird hippy uncle who visited one day while he was hiding out from the big city,
I wouldn't even have learned the 3 chord trick,
which my mates were eager to learn off me...
Or an older local guitarist telling us splash out our pocket money to put 8s on,
so we could bend notes like rock stars..
or might have if they hadn't broke within minutes...

It's all so different and much easier for kids buying and learning guitar these days...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

Amen to that, pfr.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:15 PM

Forty years back, 10s were labelled as extra light, 11s as medium and 12s as heavy, and 13s as extra heavy, but fashions and technology changes over time. Electric players went for 9s called something like super light, but I guess manufacturers were more worried about tops and bridges lifting if people used heavy gauges in those days. There must be somebody out there who can verify this, not that it really matters. And yes, my first steel string guitar had a bridge that was won’t to lift, but possibly because glue technology hadn’t advanced that far in the 1970s..

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:31 PM

Jerry - no problems with the bridge glue,
it did a terrific job of adhereing to the ply laminate it splintered and tore out,
leaving a gaping dark ragged chasm in the soundboard...

Some time later my little sister, said if she got a bloke she knew to fix it,
could she keep it..

Ok.. why not.. it was no good to me since i got a decent solid body electric..

So the bloke fixed it with chicken wire, fibre glass and car body filler...

So was he our local luthier...???

My sister seemed happy enough...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:54 PM

I've always regarded 11-52 as light

They didn't play very well on the paramount

I'm using 10-48 at the moment. They work for me. Its a dreadnought size - so its nothing to do with a small body.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 01:03 AM

I think there's probably a move by string-manufacturers away from the 'old' descriptions of 'light', 'extra-light', 'medium' etc. towards using the gauges as a descriptor. Probably a good idea - less possibility of mis-understandings and confusion.

I've never used anything lower than 12-53 on an acoustic guitar. I suppose 10s (which I regard as Ultra-Light) could work on a Dread if you're a bender and play plugged, but unplugged I'm pretty confident I'd find them gutless. Even on a small-body, I'd use 12s.

But it's each to his own, one man's meat, etc. There's no wrong answer, just personal preference. I have 10-48s on my Strat.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:20 AM

Yes, I remember it better now:
13 heavy
12 medium
11 light
10 extra light
9 ultra light
and that was fairly standard nomenclature for years, but many now regard 12 and 13 as standard. Bluegrass pickers went for the heavies, rock players for the skinny ones and blues and folk finger pickers for the mid range. There are also hybrid sets these days of course with heavier trebles and lower bass strings, the latter being the ones that were capable of damaging more delicate guitars.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:54 AM

Yes, Jerry - I think there was a general adjustment of those by moving the descriptions up a gauge, perhaps in the '80s/early '90s, so it became...

14/above - Heavy
13 - Medium
12 - Light
11 - Extra Light
10 - Ultra Light
9 - Completely unsuitable for acoustic guitar, suitable only for electrics or cutting cheese.

My interest moved from playing electric to acoustic in the late '80s, and I've always seen 12s referred to as Light, and 13s as Medium.

But there is such a wide range of gauges, and mixes of gauges, available now, I seldom refer to strings as Light, Medium, yadda yadda, I refer to them by the gauge of the 1st string in the set.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 01:06 PM

I used to use my Dad'd old imperial micrometer to get a reasonably accurate measure of string gauges.
It was a real old world proper made in england 1940s quality tool,
until it broke early in the 21st Century [metal fatigue..???]...

Since then I can't get reliable readings off those affordable digital calipers...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:56 PM

yes its all part of history - like the old stories of Yorkshire men playing darts with live hedgehogs.

Who knows what the truth of it is?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:00 AM

Bit late again, just back from "up north". As Punkfolkrocker implies. Strings won't just "pull the bridge off" most guitars - possibly it could on a Lowden and certain others - purely because, on a bridge with pins, the strings aren't attached to the bridge but the bridge plate beneath it. The strings exert a downward pressure on the bridge (some rotational force) and an upwards pressure on the bridge-plate. If the plate gives way, you'll get a gaping hole in the top.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:01 PM

Exactly right, Ray... I was wondering about that myself. You do see "bridges lifting" on some guitars but it must be for another reason (top bellying, glue drying) - in any case, the action of the strings will be to hold the bridge in place (mostly) rather than to pull it off... Cheers Tony

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 06:44 PM

I had an Ovation Baladeer for about fifteen years. The bridge lifting for about five of them. It always seemed to work okay.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:59 AM

Ovations, along with Lowdens, are one of the exceptions insofar as they don’t have pin bridges; i.e. the strings are attached to the bridge itself rather than passing through the bridge, the top and the bridge plate beneath with bll end held in place by a bridgepin.

(For those who don’t know, the bridgepin doesn’t hold the string in place. The ball end should sit in a notch in the bridge plate and the pin simply stops it slipping out.)

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 06:21 AM

"For those who don’t know, the bridgepin doesn’t hold the string in place. The ball end should sit in a notch in the bridge plate and the pin simply stops it slipping out.)"

True in a guitar with slotted pin holes (my Martins' pin holes are slotted and have solid, unslotted pins). This is the 'old-fashioned and, IMHO, the best, way. The ball 'locks' under the bridge-plate and cannot 'creep' into the pin-hole.

Not true in guitars with slotted pins and un-slotted holes - which are a huge majority of modern guitars. In those guitars, the ball-end sits against the bridge-plate but the tension on the string causes it to press against the pin - the result is often that the ball pushes the pin aside (especially in a guitar that has tapered pins in a straight-drilled hole) and 'creeps' into the pin-hole, damaging the bridge-plate in so doing.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 08:40 AM

My Crafter Mandolin, plastic bowl-back from approx 2000
has a bridge that anchors the strings;
passing through from front to back.
I can't remember if the bridge is just glued to the top,
or pinned as well.
But string tension started lifting it off not too long after I got it..
Of course I didn't notice until I think after guarantee ran out...

I never enjoyed playing it anyway, sounded crap...
So replaced it with a solid body mando for gigs.
Haven't even bothered looking for it for about 15 years..
It's in the house somewhere...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:47 PM

the title's a bit odd. Why would you need a special sort of guitar for a UK folk club?

i suppose a guitar that chucks out a bit is good - if you have no amplification, but quite a few places do..

No amplification but you like guitar effects, theres only really the yamaha transacoustic that fulfils that criteria.

Does English folk music have some special need that makes a certain kind of guitar preferable?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 11:37 PM

Al - handcrafted from pre 1954 timber...???

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:16 AM

The original poster gave a thumbnail of the notional requirements - "A room - usually in a pub - which holds 80ish people. No amplification. I want a guitar that will fill the room when playing a solo instrumental. That responds well to finger and plectrum style."

Could be geography-neutral, of course. Except if in a bar in Spain (for example) the requirements might be a bit different...

I guess we can also presume a seated, quiet, relatively attentive audience (from my recollections - tend to be a bit more talkative through the set over here in Oz, also not many purely acoustic venues unless you count some house concerts).

- Tony

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:31 AM

Al, if you’re an acoustic guitarist who likes FX, a decent solution is the Tonewood amp, a little divide you attach to the back of the guitar (using magnets, I think) which uses the soundbox of the guitar as it’s ‘speaker’. It’s not intended to be a means of increasing your guitar’s volume, it’s actually an FX device. I know a couple of guys who have them - they have reverb, chorus, etc. straight out of their guitar’s soundhole!

Not for me, but still a very interesting concept.

Tonewood Amp website

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:33 AM

“A little divide??? WTF?? Device!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 11:06 AM

well i've got the transacoustic, i haven't thought up a use for it yet. it does chorus and reverb and its red - which matches my elderly time ravaged complexion.

I've promised it an outing when it starts behaving itself. ....could be a while...!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 11:30 AM

Incidentally good article about Renbourn in this months Guitarist magazine. An interview with Clive Carrol who apparently was John's protege - I didn't know that.

also an article on the new fender acoustasonic.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 11:32 AM

I thought it was only electric guitars which were red. All mine are (mainly) brown.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM

some of us live in the fast lane!!!