Duos - Discriminated against again

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: PHJim
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 12:46 PM

I recall going to the open mic at a local folk club prepared to share a song that I was excited about. One of the other performers asked me if I'd play the banjo to back her up. When it came time for me to do my song, I was told that I had already had my performance slot. I was a bit pissed off, but understood that they had limited time on the open stage. I was a bit surprised when the host told me that if I had done my song first, then I would have been allowed to accompany the other singer. I couldn't see the logic.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 06:10 AM

Yes, sitting opposite or a few seats away from a "musical" friend or partner is always a good move as Trish has observed. Then the MC can't accuse you of "collaborating"

Especially so for tune players. If you are seen to "join in", then some hosts will assume or argue that you've "had your tune".

I've also noticed that if you decide to "sit out" when asked the first time because you aren't quite ready, then you are unlikely to get asked again in many places.    :-((

Now one of my biggest gripes.

Singers and other instrumentalists who don't listen or give tune players the same order as singers, story tellers etc. This is understandable in a regular pub session but there is no excuse in an organised "Come All Ye", "Singaround" or "Round the room session" scenario.

@Flora G.... Re Norwegian and Gaelic tunes etc etc

" its not that they are unwelcome - just hard to listen to and even harder to join in with. Me - I really like them but I keep them for home playing."

The discussion is about the more organised session/singaround. So, you don't have to "join in"(It may not always be welcome, anyway) and it is more about listening.

Individual set instrumental pieces and many songs may indeed be "hard to listen to" but that is what is usually expected. Of course, many songs and tunes are ideal for "joining in" and most performers will welcome this. However, less well known and more serious pieces are usually better left alone.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM

On the subject of grouses against MCs - I'd been going along to a folk club just to listen, for a while, then practised a tune to take along. At the start of the evening I told the MC, but he left me shaking in my shoes for most of the evening before he asked me to play.
No complaints in general though, he ran a good club.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 05:26 PM

FloraG, I hope you are feeling much better, soon. Regarding the session, you've made your concern/objection known to the organizer(s), and more you cannot do. If it doesn't change, voting with your feet might make how strongly you feel about your stated position clear to him/her/them. Best to you and good luck with both the chemo and session.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: JHW
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 04:50 PM

Just reading about Stately Home Hotels in my National Trust mag reminded me that couples are the norm for pricing rooms, cabins etc. and if you're not a couple expect to pay extra. It works both ways.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 01:36 PM

I am conditioned from childhood to fall asleep when storytellers start! And some of them are prone to that lengthy preamble before even starting on the story!
But we do have stories and poems in some of our sessions: not just songs and tunes.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 11:33 AM

On an already rather controversial thread I tentatively introduce that dreaded word "storytellers"!

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 10:35 AM

Ok, solution: will take the tip from Guest CJ way up the thread and sit on the opposite side of the room from my friend. When she starts a song, I can join in, and then, when it comes to my turn, vice versa, So now it's as Guest on 26.09.19 suggested, and let other folk join in if they want: I don't mind that so long as they don't try to take over the song by changing time signature, key or tempo. (We've all been there, I guess!)

And, slight thread drift, excuse me for that, but it's also about people making assumptions. At some singing events I've been to, there is an MC who picks and chooses people to sing, but seems to only pick those he/she knows. By definition, at this sort of event, at least 90% of people there are singers, with just a very few being "only here to listen". There IS time to fit everyone in, if only the MC would ask that vital question "Is there anyone who wants to sing, who hasn't sung yet?" But no, they go back and ask those with better-known faces (to them!) to sing again. I really do find this practice objectionable, especially after the MC has introduced the session as being "a chance for everyone to sing".

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 07:35 AM

One thing I find really annoying (especially when there's a problem with time running out) is extended frivolous dialogue used to set up a song however, I do appreciate some songs require pre-explaining. I was at the butt end of this type of selfish behaviour a few years ago. The chosen "penultimate" singer spent longer spouting out his preamble than he did singing his lengthy ballad that followed. So much so that, the session ran over time and ended the moment he finished.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM

Jack - its not that they are unwelcome - just hard to listen to and even harder to join in with. Me - I really like them but I keep them for home playing.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 04:06 AM

Different things upset different people.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 01:54 AM

I wouldn't go anywhere near a session/singaround where the ethos was that Norwegian tunes or Gaelic songs were unwelcome.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 07:58 PM

Please - no ill will. The initial thought was about why assume married couples are duos. Some are , some aren't.
When I attend a session I like to think I contribute to the joy of it. I don't play any of my strange Norwegian tunes - No gallic songs - No written music - if a tunes worth playing or singing its worth learning - and nothing too long. I get my melodeon tuned regularly. I'm not sure I always get it right - but I do think about it and try my best.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 05:18 PM

Instrumentalists generally limit themselves to a tune played three times through. How many times have you wished that singers would limit theselves to three verses? This would allow many more circuits of the room!

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 05:18 PM

all the regular members, know who i am ,my name is Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

"What an unkind spiteful cowardly post guest guest, furthermore hiding behind anonymity, yiou should be ashamed of yourself"

Ron Trueman-Border, if you're wondering, Mr. Anonymous-Sandman. You certainly send me to sleep.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 01:18 PM

"Been thinking about who I would eliminate if time was short.
People with music stands
people with written words
Those who do over long song introductions on the guitar that are just chords
Adults who sing teenage angst songs
People who aren't tuned up ready"

The way the folk clubs I've been in the past 5 years are run, that should make for fairly short evenings.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 10:48 AM

I'm sure there are some people who would like to be commemorated by a show where performers arm-wrestle for their spot in the limelight, but I'm not one of them.

When I pop off please do NOT organize an event which sets up any sort of competitive behaviour.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 10:12 AM

Electric cars ?????

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 08:27 AM

Been thinking about who I would eliminate if time was short.
People with music stands
people with written words
Those who do over long song introductions on the guitar that are just chords
Adults who sing teenage angst songs
People who aren't tuned up ready
Those who play unknown tune sets
those who don't drive electric cars
lots to choose from.


I rather like the idea of asking each couple sitting next to each other to do one between them. Could make the evening a lot more interesting if its the first time they have met.

Could keep the MC very busy.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 07:14 AM

To me, it's much better if you have a competent emcee. They can read the situation and ensure the mix of the singers & players is balanced. I have no problems doing a duet when time gets tight however, it really irks me when others brazingly follow on with a 20 verse ballad or play a medley of a half dozen tunes.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 06:04 AM

Yes, quite. I wasn’t at the memorial session in question, but I can picture the scenario. Lots of people all wanting to contribute, so clearly limited opportunities for everyone to contribute, but pretty galling if you had made the effort to prepare a poignant contribution but there is no time for it because others have wasted precious time fumbling through their dog eared ring binders looking for stuff they couldn’t even bother to learn for the event. What sort of memorial is that?

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 04:11 AM

What an unkind spiteful cowardly post guest guest, furthermore hiding behind anonymity, yiou should be ashamed of yourself

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM

'Discriminated against'? Again? At a 'special memorial evening?' @#&*!!!

Sorry you're not well, Flora, but your sense of entitlement screams off the page. That may be the very reason you don't get the kind of attention you crave.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:02 AM

John - your probably right.
Being on Chemo it takes a lot more effort than usual to get myself to a do, pack the car, tune the instruments, find somewhere to park, walk to the pub, find a seat, sort out a drink and be ready. To then be ignored for the evening because my husband sang a song - not one I know- was a bit of a downer. ( His song was good - he'd bothered to learn it ).
I tend to avoid clubs like that but it was a special memorial evening.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 11:20 AM

This idea of how many songs or tunes one is entitled to perform at sing and play evenings or sessions etc., it really is banal and tedious; as if there is some democratic rule that was established and introduced in clubs, moons ago, which there was not. Why not just go along, do your thing, not counting how many you are and expecting how many to do and listen and enjoy others. I`m sure when you review the events you have attended over the course of a year you will be pleasantly surprised at what you heard and learned and you will also have had a fair crack of the whip.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 10:31 AM

"Same old songs" - with a few exceptions most of my singer friends seem to manage to come up with different ones each time!
And I would normally expect anyone new at a session to take their turn, like the rest of us: at one session I go to, anyone who arrives late is given their turn after everyone else who arrived on time, rather than in order of seating.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 09:55 AM

I agree, and as I said previously, if there's time then there's no reason why members of a duo/band shouldn't also perform solo. It's when time is short that it becomes an issue, and then you can't expect to have it both ways.

If someone new comes to a session, and especially if they are any good or even "slightly famous" why on earth wouldn't you take advantage of their presence to hear something different? You can go back to listening to the same old singers and the same old songs the following week.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 09:26 AM

Fair enough to only take one turn if the session is very crowded and it's a struggle to fit everyone in, but if there is plenty of time, then why on earth not? My friend and I also tend to choose rather different material from each other, we both sing, and we play different instruments, which can complement each other or how the song sounds. Plainly we'll have to agree to differ with some of you on this one.

Is there also "positive discrimination"? E.g.when so-and-so group, maybe slightly famous, wanders into a session, and immediately gets asked to sing, out of the usual run of things. Then "Oh well, there are four of you, so let's have 3 more songs"! It does happen: the performance is usually very enjoyable, but may mean that someone who has been patiently waiting for ages has to be left out. Now that IS stretching it a bit.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 07:43 AM

BINGO! The answer in a nutshell, Howard!

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 07:33 AM

Why should a duo be entitled to do more songs than anyone else? A performance is a performance, whether it's by a solo performer, a duo or a large band. Someone who is also a soloist as well as performing in a duo or band might hope to get a solo spot as well, but when time is tight they should expect to be among the first to be cut out if they've already had a chance to perform.

The problems both FloraG and Tattie Bogle describe arise because they appear not to be consistent, and sometimes play alongside a partner while both still wanting to be treated as soloists. If you don't want to be regarded as a duo, don't perform as one.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 10:46 PM

Yes goodwill and unselfishness is at the heart of the enterprise.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 08:45 PM

It happens sometimes to one of my friends and I: she will accompany me on a song, but then, a singer herself, not get asked to do one. We are not a formal duo either. We have got wise to this, over the years, and if they try to move on to the next person after us, I will usually say, "What about L? Give her a turn". While I appreciate time constraints in a session, neither of us sing particularly long songs, tho there is always some totally insensitive someone who will launch into a 40-verse dreich ballad just when time is running out and half a dozen or so people are still hoping to get a song in!

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:31 PM

I think I was most annoyed at the memorial sing around when my husband did a solo on the parting glass - he does that well- and I was ignored. The family had asked for some Steel Eye and I had a song ready in my head. There were also 2 very good duos ( not us) who only got one song between them and quite a few tedious solo singers.
Never mind. Got in today and had a phone message - can we do something to help raise money for a local church? I'm sure we can.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 09:54 AM

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43997/the-rime-of-the-ancient-mariner-text-of-1834

Big Al, put it to music and make that your opening number the next time you're given "three songs' instead of a time limit.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 08:31 AM

I know of plenty of couples who turn up together but only perform as individuals, and no one has ever confused them as a duo because their behaviour makes it quite clear they are not. From how you've described some of your behaviour (such as joining in with your husband) it may have given the impression that you are a duo, at least part of the time. To change this not only do you need to explain it to the organiser but you probably also need to reinforce it by performing your solo spots entirely independently without joining in with each other.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:30 AM

I attend a singaround where, first time around, individuals perform two songs and duos perform three. Second time around (if there's time) every act might get a chance to do one more. It works well largely because everyone is good natured and realises that the organiser does their best to be fair an equitable.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:21 AM

Or, work out some sets where a song he likes to sing can be merged with a tune you like to play (maybe 20 is going a bit far). But that would be accepting yourselves as a duo so counterproductive.

Are any of the MCs at these clubs Mudcat members?

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:17 AM

Train your husband to ask pointedly "Are you going to do one or shall I?"

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:13 AM

I suppose the problem arises when one member of the duo wants to sing The Famous Flower of Serving Men and the the other wants to do Desolation Row - that's half the evening gone.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 04:53 AM

I think if it happens just very occasionally then it seems reasonable to comply as it will help out the organiser who is trying to make everything fit into a limited time. If it happens a lot then extremely annoying and unfair.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:55 AM

12 minutes per instrument sounds great. The session I was at on Wednesday, my bag held 4 recorders, 4 whistles, 6 ocarinas, flute, clarinet, chalumeau, washboard and scallop shells. For the second half - "my friend the moothie player will start with the Marine Band in C, then a D/G tremolo, Lee Oskar in G harmonic minor..."

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:06 AM

We've been around too long in the same area for people not to know were a couple. I think arriving in the same car at the same time gives it away.
The 12 minute rule makes it sound more like open mike. Singer guitarists singing from music can be quite tedious. Why not 12 minutes per instrument?

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: PHJim
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:07 PM

Could you get around this by simply not telling anyone that you were a couple and just performing as individuals?

We had a folk club in Cobourg where we had the "3 songs or 15 minutes, whichever came first" rule.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:39 PM

When I ran a club I reached the conclusion that using the number of songs as a measure was not useful for good time keeping. Obviously, some people had very short songs and some the opposite. Also, some people would add to their time on stage with eg, tuning, jokes, banter, starting again because they had made a mistake. And what about instrumentalists who could string four or five tunes together and call it an item?

My solution was to ask people to think of their slot as 12 minutes. They could perform as many songs or tunes or jokes or indulge in banter as much as they liked as long as they kept within the 12 minutes. This tended to make people consider the slot as a whole entity rather than just two songs. Generally speaking, it worked quite well. It doesn't really address the discrimination against duos issue but I did apply it to all of the acts.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:46 AM

Your probably right Howard. I think I'm being extra grouchy at the moment.
Usually duos are more interesting than solos, so perhaps they should get 3 times the time- if they do 3 very different things, than a single performer. Its when they get half the time that I tend to think odd.
At one club we used to go to to they usually gave everybody 2 -but if it was very busy then you only got one. We were always happy enough when it was 2 ( one each) even if it meant we did less than others, but when it was one I always let my husband take the lead which I sometimes joined in with and sometimes not. I think what I could of done was have him sing - and me - do 20 different tunes between each verse. I never did - we just don't bother to go.
At the club we went to the other night there were quite a few just reading from music- so they could have easily done one thing between each 2. Why pick on us?
FloraG

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:05 AM

You may not regard yourselves as a performing duo, but if you frequently join in on your husband's songs then that is how you may appear to other people. If it is happening regularly you should explain to club organisers that you are two separate solo performers and expect to be treated as individuals. However don't then join in with each other, as it may appear you are trying to have it both ways.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:04 AM

Shouldn’t the cat should sit on the mouse mat?

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:33 AM

Thanks Jim - but me - a smart phone! I only learn new things on the computer when the cat sits on the keyboard.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:35 AM

I `ad that Flora in my cab the other day. She was engrossed in something on one of these `ere smart phones, the ones you flick all the pictures around with your finger.
I said, "Morning Flo. Whatcha got there then? You checking on the `orse racing or something?"
She said, "No Jim. I`m reading the comments on a thread I started on that Mudcat about `ow many songs or tunes you get at a session. `ere, you`ve been at it for years. What do you think about it?"
I said, "Cor Blimey, they all get a bit precious about it , don`t they? But I do remember we played it to our advantage once. We were punting for gigs down in Sussex once so Tony, `is wife and two daughters and me and `er indoors went down this open mike night. We`d taught the others `ow to get noises out of spoons, Jaw`s `arps, tambourines and castanets. When we got there the bloke running it said, "`ow many?". We said six. `e gulped but gave us six consecutive numbers in each `alf. We `ogged the night got the booking, nice little earner!"



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