 sj |
||
|
||
BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England
|
|
|
Subject: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: robomatic Date: 23 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM Just hit the New York Times Speechless |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:57 PM An appalling tragedy but not the first and it won't be the last, if The Brexit Barricaders get their way I thought we'd seen the end of this with the corpse of that poor child being carried from the sea I've just learned that the young woman British citizen refused the right to the fair trial the law entitles her to faces being torutured and possibly murdered in the near future What the fuck is happening to humanity ? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Mr Red Date: 23 Oct 19 - 03:51 PM presumably - they chose a jobbing driver from Ireland and a unit from Bulgaria all as a smokescreen. The professional smugglers wouldn't want this to happen, only because the investigation is going to be long and detailed, and they will have to lie low. It looks to me to have a torturous trail back to them............. but. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Iains Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:19 PM An appalling tragedy but not the first and it won't be the last, if The Brexit Barricaders get their way Both the UK and Ireland are outside the Schengen zone therefore normal customs and immigration checks apply.The truck had travelled from Holyhead according to reports. It would appear the Irish border is porous and the sad event is nothing to do with Brexit and more to do with people smuggling. Previously - In 2000, 58 Chinese migrants were found suffocated to death in a lorry at Dover. In 2015, the bodies of 71 people were found in an abandoned lorry on an Austrian motorway. Police suspected the vehicle was part of a Bulgarian-Hungarian human trafficking operation. Trying to make political capital out of this sad event is sick in the extreme |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:33 PM Dirty capitalist people smugglers must be severely punished; and people the world over must be educated that leaving your land, your people and your culture for material wealth is NOT a wise thing to do; and that, if from South Asia or Africa to a place as far away from the equator as England, e.g., emigration may result in rickets, from lack of sunlight/vitamin D. Genuine asylum seekers, though, should be helped, via the UN,to their nearest (in terms of culture and geography) safe nation. My poem, from WalkaboutsVers, on IMMIGRATION'S LEFT AND RIGHT |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:36 PM Won't be the last whether Brexit or not. Also am not understanding the sentence about the woman and the trial, sorry. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: robomatic Date: 23 Oct 19 - 06:12 PM The phenomena of desperate people fleeing war and terrorism have been all too common of late. Until there is more information forthcoming we don't have the specific origins of the victims. And the coyotes and other purveyors of dangerous crossings are cleaning up all too easily. A recent show "Years and Years" tried to bring this home by forecasting LGBTQ people fleeing from Europe to England with bodies washing up on shore. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Allan Conn Date: 24 Oct 19 - 02:42 AM What woman? The latest update I saw was that the lorry driver was a 25 year old man from Northern Ireland with the suggestion being that the front of the lorry may have driven from Northern Ireland to the channel to pick the container up. Though that is to be actually confirmed! They don't yet know what nationality the victims are. The lorry itself was registered in Bulgaria by an Irish citizen - but the authorities in Bulgaria itself are seemingly saying that the vehicle hasn't actually been in Bulgaria since 2017. So they don't actually know for sure as yet how the container got to be where it was when the driver picked it up at the channel - or if he even just picked it up there. Or at least that information hasn't been released. Not sure what Brexit has to do with this? Other than some asylum seekers might be thinking it will make a difference - but I can't see how it would as we're not in Schengen anyway. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 02:50 AM ""Won't be the last whether Brexit or not." Brexit is just a way of Britain washing their hands of the massive shift in population that is taking place all over the planet - the fact that British policy of buying abroad cheaply to make up for goods no longer manufactured back home and to keep oil supplies flowing to keep our cars on the road means that our governments are deeply implicated in tragedies like this and they are doing what they do in our name The the attempts to divide so called "genuine refugees" from "economic migrants is a deception Whether they are fleeing Western-backed and armed murderous dictators or a life of pittance-paid, soul-destroying work in conditions it would be illegal to house animals in in most western countries, the end result is the same, hardship, misery, ill-health, starvation and inevitable death if you don't try to escape. Their situation is little different to that of the Jewish People in the 1930s - a little less urgent maybe, but in the long-run the choices are the same - stay and die or run and possibly survive Brexit was the first official move to keep these people out using populism and "keeping the terrorists out" as excuses, then Trump started building his wall - populism again and accusation that allowing Mexicans to come in was laying America to filling America with degenerate rapists and thieves. Here in Ireland it is "our rural towns are not equipped to handle a few hundred strangers moving into our little communities" Different messages, same end result - "Keep 'em out" Back in the day, it was the threat of Bolshevism being brought in from Europe - luckily the British people then, with their own very real problems, didn't fall for it and turned out in their thousands to drive the bearers of THAT PARTICULAR MESSAGE OFF THE STREETS Different days, different people, it seems Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Iains Date: 24 Oct 19 - 04:18 AM Jim why do you have to turn everything into a unfocused political rant? Do you take some pleasure out of destroying thread after thread? Everything you have stated above is utter bullshit. You are so far up your own arse it ain't funny.Now just go away so people with a more sympathetic view can can state their view without getting a diatribe from you. or do you wish me to dissect your nonsense line by line? The exact cause of the tragedy is still unclear. The focus seems to have shifted from a Bulgarian smuggling ring to an Irish one. Freezing people to death in an airtight container is an extremely callous way of murdering people. Perhaps had the customs inspection, demanded by exit from schengen, been more thorough perhaps this tragedy might have been avoided. Missing Migrants Project 2019 is the sixth year of the International Organization for Migration's efforts to systematically record deaths on migration routes worldwide through its Missing Migrants Project (MMP). Since the beginning of 2014, the Project has recorded the deaths of 31,626 people, including 667 in 2019. Due to the challenges of collecting information about these people and the contexts of their deaths, the true number of fatalities during migration is likely much higher. Therefore, MMP records should only be viewed as indicative, rather than representative across time or geography. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 04:24 AM "Jim why do you have to turn everything into a unfocused political rant?" Kindly mind oyur own business and don't dare attempt to interfere with what people post You have been warned conistently about your abusive behaviour, please do not use a major and possibley avoidable tragedy to display your uncontrolable bad manners here Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Oct 19 - 04:27 AM ”Also am not understanding the sentence about the woman and the trial, sorry.” Mrrzy, I think Jim was referring to Jamima Begum, the young woman who, at 15 years of age, ran away from the UK to Syria to join the ISIS group there and who, now aged 19, has been stripped of her British citizenship. Recent reports suggest that she is in a detention centre in Syria, where she faces torture or, possibly, death. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Oct 19 - 04:58 AM Sorry, pressed ‘Go’ too soon..... There have been calls for her to be brought back to the UK to be ‘de-radicalised’ (if that’s possible) and put on trial for the offences she committed by joining a proscribed organisation. Many of us believe that she was just a child when she fled to Syria, and that stripping her of her citizenship, and whatever protections and rights citizenship affords, is wrong, |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Oct 19 - 05:04 AM You, also, have been warned, Jim Carroll. Kindly refrain from combat and remember that we all expect this to be a civil discussion. And now back to the topic of the discussion. Joe Offer |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 05:11 AM Back to intelligent debate - thank you Baccie - that was the case I was referring to but there are other young people facing the same inhuman, politically convenient behaviour Brexit is just another way of passing the sins of our leaders onto those least able to defend themselves This latest tragedy is an example of a major event in a growing problem of people forced to flee their country for various reasons, largly connected with the self-interest of the wealthy West It is one of four major events listed in this mornings Irish Times as having happened in the 21st century and measures small against two of them 2000 - Zebrugge-Britain ferry 58 Chinese migrants died of suffocation after the truck's air vent had been closed to prevent detection 2001 - Wexford 13 people were locked in a container supposedly carrying furniture from Milan for more than fide days 8 of them, including children suffocated 2015 - Austria The bodies of 71 migrants were found locked in a truck abandoned at tyhe side of a rod The total dead is a blip compared to the large number of smaller groups who are found drowned, dehydrated, starved... in dangerous sea-crossings, and these are smaller still to tha many thousands left to fend for themselves in so-called refuge camps - official and voluntarily set up by poorly-funded humanitarian groups I watched my favourite travel broadcaster, Simon Reeves on the point of tears while interviewing refugees on a Greek island - he obviously cared far more than most of the rest of the world Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 05:13 AM "You, also, have been warned, Jim Carroll. " Hate to say it Joe but he started it - I hope that warning includes him I was perfectly civil - if firm Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Mr Red Date: 24 Oct 19 - 05:13 AM As has been explained above. It is in the NYT article, the "truck" ie tractor unit came from Ireland, and the trailer unit was registered in Bulgaria in 2017 and its journey thereafter could not be ascertained by Bulgaria. The tractor driver was presumably summoned as an emergency measure. And the delay, is easy to imagine, resulted in the deaths. And as for hanging this on Brexshit, it is bound to be so hung. Brexshit is an unholy mess and in an unholy mess there are many hanging threads (to hang on). But also, during an unholy mess the smugglers probably saw an opportunity to hide their movements. Anyone remember Alistair Campbell's e-mail wot sed "this could be a good day to hide bad news"........ the smugglers must have thought along the same lines. Their original plan clearly didn't work. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Nigel Parsons Date: 24 Oct 19 - 07:06 AM Latest news, just announced on BBC radio. The 39 were Chinese. Chinese immigrants are hardly a result of Brexit, nor of British imperialism. Maybe Jim will reconsider his rants on this discussion and restrict himself to facts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 07:29 AM "The 39 were Chinese." The figure was 59 Nigel The date makes it obvious that I was not claiming it to be Brexit induced, but Brexit is related to an ongoing opposition to refugees fleeing from persecution, whether that be in China, Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia..... or wherever, Brexit was squeezed through by the use of Farage and his ilk using the same tactics Powell used in his 'Rivers of Blood' diatribes so long ago, basically, "Britain is being invaded by foreign Hordes" Those are the facts - if you wish to dispute them, feel free to do so, but I would greatly appreciate it without the aggressive "rants", if it's o.k. with you I would also appreciate if it is remembered that these are human beins we are referring to - not "Chinese" or "foreigners" or "potential terrorists", as tends to be the language the media and politicians descend to to defend their part in these atrocities Jim |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Iains Date: 24 Oct 19 - 07:34 AM Mr Red. Both the UK and Ireland are outside the schengen area and have been since it's inception. As a result this requires border checks for both people and goods. As the landing port of Purfleet is predominantly, if not exclusively, for ro ro traffic, goods checks would be perfunctory. If a member of Schengen there would be no checks at all. Trying to use brexit as a scapegoat simply does not fly. If anything checks post brexit would become more thorough and may perhaps of prevented or reduced the scale of this tragedy. The authorities have been warned previously that smaller ports and refrigerated containers would be targeted by people smugglers. The only way to prevent such tragedies is to thoroughly inspect all trailers at the point of embarkation, and accept the concomitant delays and additional staffing required. https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/evil-trafficking-gangs-have-used-20710175 https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/number-of-migrants-smuggled-into-uk-in-containers-on-the-rise-959236.html https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-uk-and-the-schengen-system/ The only sad lesson that comes from this is that the unfortunate migrants must detest the EU, and like Brexiteers, regard Great Britain as the land of milk and honey. Otherwise why make such heroic efforts to escape the EU's evil clutches? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Rain Dog Date: 24 Oct 19 - 07:35 AM You and Nigel appear to be talking about different tragedies Jim. Nothing new there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 08:59 AM Sorry Nigel - my fault I was referring to the 2000 tragedy where 58 died I have only just learned that the recent deaths have now been identified as Chinese It seems sick in the extreme to use this tragedy to mount an attack on Europe These people go where they are taken and where they can afford to go; they don't open a holiday brochure and pick a place with a nice beach I would have thought that, to a group of people who have been forced to agree to travel in a freezer truck, any place should be a welcome alternative "Land of milk and honey" is a term that was used at least as far back as the Irish Famine to paint refugees as scroungers and parasites, rather than people in trouble seeking to stay alive - some things never change, do they? Despite my differences with the politics of my country, I used to be proud of the hospitality offered to refugees - even in the most difficult of times I never thought I would see refugees being refused entry; nor did I think that British people would stand by silently while our government sold arms to the despots whose despotism is largely the causes of this MASS MIGRATION Our screens have been filled with the violence taking place in HONG KONG over the last month or so Presumably any refugees from there will be given the same open-armed welcome The world is going insane Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Iains Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM It seems sick in the extreme to use this tragedy to mount an attack on Europe From fools and idiots may the Good Lord preserve us! Despite numerous clarifications on this forum jimmie still cannot understand the difference between a migrant and refugee. You are the one constantly attacking the UK on any sort of pretext. Why winge when your argument is shown to be of no substance but when reversed cannot be refuted. Yet another thread liable to closure because you insist on infecting with your toxic political views. Did you emigrate from the UK voluntarily or were you given a ticket by Special Branch and told to piss off? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:24 PM Stick to the discussion, Iains. You're getting personal. This is a serious issue, not an excuse for personal squabbles. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:31 PM "Despite numerous clarifications on this forum jimmie still cannot understand the difference between a migrant and refugee" I have gone to great length to point out that in the present circumstances this difference may be an administrative one but as far the people involved are concerned it doesn't matter whether you are fleeing tyranny doled out by despots armed by the West, or starvation and slave-level wages facilitated by western companies filling their stores with goods produced by such injustices - the culprits remain the same and the victims have every right to demand recompense from those guilty I have asked you not to try to talk down to me with your constant use of "jimmie" (reserved fro friends and family) - I am not going to make an issue of it, but I hope that the mod who is so keen to keep these discussions friendly will note it's use if they are serious in those attempts Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:56 PM Cross posted it seems Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM What’s new? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Mrrzy Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM Thanks for the 'splainin' - I did try to parse that sentence. I am surprised they were Chinese. I wish I were surprised they had died. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Nigel Parsons Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:47 PM From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 24 Oct 19 - 08:59 AM Sorry Nigel - my fault I was referring to the 2000 tragedy where 58 died I have only just learned that the recent deaths have now been identified as Chinese It seems sick in the extreme to use this tragedy to mount an attack on Europe If it is "sick in the extreme" to use this to mount an attack on the EU, is it also "sick in the extreme" to use this tragedy to mount an attack on Brexit, which you did in the second post to this discussion? And if, at 8:59 you have "only just learned that the recent deaths have now been identified as Chinese " then clearly you have ignored the comment you made at 7:29 "The 39 were Chinese." The figure was 59 Nigel The date makes it obvious that I was not claiming it to be Brexit induced, but Brexit is related to an ongoing opposition to refugees fleeing from persecution, whether that be in China, Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia..... or wherever, |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Iains Date: 24 Oct 19 - 02:10 PM More details on the tragedy have been released LONDON (AP) — All 39 people found dead in a container truck near an English port were Chinese citizens, British police confirmed Thursday as they pressed to investigate one of the country's deadliest cases of people smuggling. The Essex Police force said 31 men and eight women were found dead in the truck early Wednesday at the Waterglade Industrial Park in Grays, a town 25 miles (40 kilometers) east of London. The force says one victim previously thought to be a teenager was instead a young adult woman. Britain's National Crime Agency warned in 2016 that people smuggling using containers on ferries was "the highest-priority organized immigration crime threat." The same year, the U.K. Border Force identified Zeebrugge and the Hook of Holland in the Netherlands as key launching points for people trafficking into Britain. The vital difference between an illegal immigrant and refugee is that the latter has protected status in law and is granted certain rights. Within the EU the rights of refugees are constrained/delineated by the Dublin Agreement.Illegal Immigrants have no such protection and most regard them as economic migrants. No one would wish on them the fate that this particular lorry load suffered. Countries have always had borders and have always protected then. Even areas within the Schengen zone have reintroduced checks in recent years. In Denmark in the not so distant past I had to go through security checks on disembarkation aswell as the usual ID checks. That was a first for me. Uncontrolled flows of immigrants put pressure on housing, educational facilities and medical services to name but a few. Between 1971 and 1981, the foreign born population only grew by about 100,000 and then by about 400,000 in the subsequent decade. It was in the next decades that the pace and scale of immigration increased dramatically. Between 1991 and 2001 the foreign born population increased by about 1.1 million (with by far the highest levels of immigration taking place from 1997 onwards). It then increased by almost three million between 2001 and 2011. The change in the size of the foreign born population between 2001 and 2011 was absolutely without precedent in British history. Post WW2 some 192000 Poles were given residence in the UK. I think everyone can agree they more than earned that right. Some facts that not everyone is prepared to accept. It is adding more than a million to the UK population every three years Mass immigration places major pressure on public services. There were an average of 2,000 new GP registrations by migrants per day in 2016/17. Current levels of immigration to England will require a home to be built every six minutes, night and day Immigrants overall were a net fiscal cost to the Exchequer of £4.3 billion in 2016/17. Joe Average has no problem with immigration, the problem is the scale and to a lesser extent the documented downward pressure on wages for both the unskilled and certain tradesmen None of the above is intended to detract from what is a ghastly event but simply to put immigration in some kind of perspective. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 02:52 PM Personally, I find a huge lump of anti-immigration propaganda from extreme right wing 'Migration Watch' (unlinked of course) a pretty distasteful contribution to a discussion on the deaths by freezing of thirty two human beings - six of whom were women, by the way Maybe I'm being over-sentimental ! "sick in the extreme" to use this tragedy to mount an attack on Brexit" Brexit is a deliberately chosen policy to prevent or discourage immigrants to come to Britain - as with the unprecedented rise in racist incidents in Britain, the relevance to tragedies such as these and Britain's efforts to keep them out is fairly obvious The European Union is a gathering of 28 States seeking to co-operate with each other for the benefit of all - nothing whatever to do with tragedies such as this unless the E.U. adopts a policy of preventing immigrants from entering Europe, of course So far, that has not happened (fingers crossed) Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Raggytash Date: 24 Oct 19 - 03:10 PM Perhaps we could step back and consider that 39 have died. 39 people who probably had families. 39 people who probably had friends. Scoring points at this point seems a little out of order in my book. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Iains Date: 24 Oct 19 - 03:56 PM I cannot think of a single country with an open borders policy. Even the EU has rolled back schengen in some places. Current Temporarily Reintroduced Border Controls Temporarily reintroduced border controls in the context of foreseeable events: Norway (12 May 2019 – 12 November 2019) security situation in Europe; all internal borders with an initial focus on ferry connections with Denmark, Germany and Sweden; Sweden (12 May 2019 – 12 November 2019) serious threat to public policy and internal security; to be determined but may concern all internal borders; Denmark (12 May 2019 – 12 November 2019) severe threat to public order and internal security; internal border with Germany (land and ports with ferry connections); may extend to all internal borders; Germany (12 May 2019 – 12 November 2019) migration and security policy; land border with Austria; Austria (12 May 2019 – 12 November 2019) security situation in Europe and continuous significant secondary movements; land borders with Hungary and with Slovenia; France (1 May 2019- 31 October 2019) Terrorist threats and situation at the external borders. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Iains Date: 24 Oct 19 - 04:13 PM From the EU parliament Combating irregular immigration: the European Union is required to prevent and reduce irregular immigration, in particular by means of an effective return policy, in a manner consistent with fundamental rights. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/152/immigration-policy |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Mrrzy Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:17 PM Do we know they froze? And why on earth would it matter that some were women? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 39 Dead in Truck Trailer in England From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:28 PM I think I want to repeat what Raggytash said:
39 people who probably had families. 39 people who probably had friends. Scoring points at this point seems a little out of order in my book. -Joe Offer- |