BS: UK politics

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 11:27 AM

It’s all summed up perfectly in this article by Ian McEwan. Never have so many been made fools of by so few.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 11:51 AM

"Brexit, the most pointless, masochistic ambition in our country's history, is done" [Ian McEwan in today's Guardian]

A brilliant polemic. I won't bother picking bits of it out. It's a spiffing good read and it's the sword of truth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 11:53 AM

Blimey, sorry about that, John! The 14-minute gap between our posts was me reading the article wot I'd found in the Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 11:53 AM

24 minutes!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 12:02 PM

...And that does NOT make me a slow reader - I was following Liverpool's magnificent 4-0 victory over Southampton at the same time!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM

We have had a request that "everyone has to stop the name calling." Personal abuse will, quite rightly be removed. If there is to much of it the thread will be closed. You know who you are. I would also ask people to not respond to such abuse or to flame bait. Responses to trolling make the moderation team's task a lot more difficult

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 12:29 PM

Mods - please delete my post

"Date: 01 Feb 20 - 03:13 AM"

since the latest posts cull, it now looks like I'm having a laugh at the wrong target [DtG]...

cheers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 12:47 PM

"As an EU member state, the UK had been able to resist Spanish claims over the territory but Madrid will now have the full support of the other 26 countries in the bloc." (from your piece). No more veto!

Utter tosh from the Prosecco kid!

Spain's legal claim to Gibraltar is weak. It does not dispute the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713, the document which formally ceded the Rock to the British "in perpetuity"
and therefore it is undisputed British sovereign territory.

To further argue it is a colonial relic calls into question the status of contemporary Spanish North Africa:

    Spain's two autonomous cities: Ceuta and Melilla, plus other minor territories (plazas de soberanía)
    The Canary Islands
There is already a territorial dispute with Morocco.
The Independance movement in the north could well be reinvigorated by any move on Gibralter.
The law of unintended consequences could kick in.

Be nice to see the European court of justice be given a good drubbing by the UN, should they decide to side with Spain.
This would of course lead to questions being asked about the French presence in Gabon and Cameroun and the CFA currency - it has a healthy whiff of colonialism in all but name.(I saw plenty of French troops in Port Gentil when I worked there.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 03:22 PM

obviously the folk on gibralter care and would prefer to stay in the EU - so obviously that makes more sense than ancient treaties. bit like scotland really

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 03:29 PM

"Utter tosh from the Prosecco kid" isn't exactly in keeping with "everyone has to stop the name calling" is it?

Stick to the rules and the thread may just stay open. Keep on breaking them and you ruin it for everyone. I cannot make it more simple.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 03:31 PM

Boris sends Warships full steam to Gibraltar...

.. the Falklands worked a treat for Maggie...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 03:42 PM

Is that what he said, Dave? I don't even read his posts.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 04:54 PM

Everybody, please...don’t interact with him, don’t speak to him or about him, don’t respond in any way - just ignore him and leave him to it.

Pretty please...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 05:24 PM

obviously the folk on gibralter care and would prefer to stay in the EU - so obviously that makes more sense than ancient treaties. bit like scotland really
The reality:
In Gibraltar, where the Remain vote was more than 96 per cent, the Remoaners have moved on from the referendum with scarcely a backward glance at the European Union.
Chief minister Fabian Picardo told a Commons select committee at Westminster that Gibraltar’s Remain vote had less to do with any attachment to the EU than a fear Spain would capitalise on Brexit by pursuing its ambition of reclaiming the Rock.
Since the referendum, Spain has, indeed, offered to keep Gibraltar inside the EU if it allows Madrid to share sovereignty over it with London.
In 1967 The result of the Gibraltar referendum was an overwhelming vote by its inhabitants to retain their links with Britain. Of the 12,762 Gibraltarians qualified to vote, no fewer than 12,138 voted to remain with Britain. Only 44 opted for the transfer of the Rock to Spanish sovereignty.
They voted again in 2002 when the result of another referendum with 98.48 per cent wishing to remain with Britain.
“We are not looking to remain as part of the European Union as being partly Spanish,” Picardo said. “The only way that somebody could describe that offer as generous would be to be entirely disingenuous.

“This is the generosity of the predator that thinks that its prey is finally prone and it’s going to take the price it’s been seeking to extract for the past 300 years,” he said. “Neither the people of the United Kingdom nor the people of Gibraltar are a prey that is on its knees, seeking any generous offer from the people of Spain.”

The Spanish have previous form:
During the 18th century, despite suffering three separate sieges at the hands of Spain, Gibraltar remained British.   
Blockaded by land and sea and faced with death by starvation, Gibraltar did not give in. During World War II, our entire civilian population was evacuated from Gibraltar out of fear of a Spanish-assisted German invasion. We survived. Fast-forward to September 1967.
Spain, then ruled by a fascist dictator, Gen. Francisco Franco, presented the Gibraltarians with a choice, the fundamental element of which is similar to the choice touted today: to pass under Spanish sovereignty. Knowing full well what the consequences would be, our hands did not tremble at the ballot box. Armed with a paper and a pencil, Gibraltarians voted 99.6 percent to remain British. In retaliation, Franco closed the border, families were separated, terrestrial links to Spain were torn, and labor, food, and hospital supplies had to be sourced from Morocco and elsewhere. This modern-day siege lasted more than 13 years. Spain refused a formal offer from the U.K. in 1966 to settle the question of Gibraltar’s status at the International Court of Justice. One can only infer why that was the case. Spain’s sophistic arguments over the isthmus could also have been resolved then.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 05:31 PM

whatever.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 09:29 PM

"This has been a historic week for self-destructive politics. Like turkeys voting for Christmas, the British government celebrated its withdrawal from its biggest trading relationships just as Republican senators celebrated their own castration.

Both sets of magnificent morons claimed they were acting for their imaginary friends in the future: a future where Britain will once again bestride the ocean, and presidents will once again lead the free world feeling free from the fear of partisan impeachment."


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/31/republicans-impeachment-trump-richard-wolffe

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 03:12 AM

We know that the people of Gibraltar voted overwhelmingly to stay in the UK and overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Anything beyond that is speculation, whoever says it.

Any international treaty can be rescinded if the parties involved agree. So there are only really two fundamental questions:

1. Is the EU solidarity with Spain sufficient it will move to a no deal if it comes to it?

2. Is the UK desire for a deal greater than its desire to retain Gibraltar?

I do not know the answer to either question and nor, at this stage, does anyone else. What I am certain of is that those are the questions that matter, and not what was written some three centuries ago in a treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 03:51 AM

What I am certain of is that those are the questions that matter, and not what was written some three centuries ago in a treaty.

I seriously doubt many others share your certainty!

Good to see you support project fear!
Seen any fire and brimstone yet?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 05:00 AM

Tom Peck’s view in The Independent of the nonsense in Parliament Square on Friday night...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 05:19 AM

The abhorrent Norwich poster demanding residents speak English or leave, and accusing them of "infecting this once great land" .

I hope everyone here agrees the police are right to investigate this and bring charges if possible. Leave voters have often been accused of racism. This is a chance to clearly reject that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 05:33 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcjOjiUGwwQ

How we arrived where we are. A very articulate presentation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 06:08 AM

The hate message on the poster is composed of ungainly and often ungrammatical English, contains two extraneous words, is missing essential punctuation after "choice" and lacks a necessary apostrophe in "Queens." Some irony there, I'd say, considering the supposed intent of the message.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 06:16 AM

”The hate message on the poster is composed of ungainly and often ungrammatical English, contains two extraneous words, is missing essential punctuation after "choice" and lacks a necessary apostrophe in "Queens." Some irony there, I'd say, considering the supposed intent of the message.”

Hardly surprising though, when you consider that the writers of the message are precisely the same kind of people who exhorted us to ‘Take Are Cuntry Back’ during the 2016 Referendum campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 01:52 PM

If you want the contents of that other short-lived UK political thread (Hilary Benn) transferred over here let me know. The political rancor has to be confined to one place, otherwise it drives away users from the site.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 04:33 PM

Will Hutton, in today’s Guardian suggesting that the threat to Johnson will come, not from the opposition parties, but from within his own Tory party. That his deal with the devil, in the form of the vicious and powerful ERG grouping will be source of his undoing.

Fingers crossed - it can’t come soon enough.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 05:51 PM

Not bothered, Maggie. Just leave it where it is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 06:26 PM

The abhorrent Norwich poster demanding residents speak English or leave, and accusing them of "infecting this once great land" .
I hope everyone here agrees the police are right to investigate this and bring charges if possible. Leave voters have often been accused of racism. This is a chance to clearly reject that.

Yes, the message in that poster was abhorrent. The police are investigating. I hope a prosecution will follow for inciting racial hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 02:11 AM

Thank you Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 05:10 AM

Nissan has drawn up a plan to pull out of mainland Europe if Brexit leads to tariffs on car exports — but to double down on the UK, where the Japanese company believes it could sell one in five cars.This would see Nissan close its struggling Barcelona van facility and stop manufacturing in France. The Sunderland plant in the UK would be maintained to grab market share from other carmakers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 05:24 AM

All Nissan have to do now, then, is to stop making shitmobiles...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 07:51 AM

Johnson dropping it out in his speech this morning that he’s looking for “A Canadian-style, or even Australian-style“, trade agreement with the EU. Errrrrmmmm... Australia don’t have a trade agreement with the EU, they have a few ‘facilitation arrangements’ but no full-blown trade agreement.

So, despite having repeatedly claimed during the GE campaign that he was determined to get a trade-deal with the EU, today he effectively quietly slipped in a suggestion that he’ll be perfectly happy with, or is even aiming for, a No-Deal Brexit. Precisely the thing he denied was his aim before the election.

Now Brexiteers, repeat after me...”Johnson is a serial liar, he cannot be trusted - ever!”.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 09:33 AM

All Nissan have to do now, then, is to stop making shitmobiles...

Nissan rank no 6 in the world in terms of market share.
That puts them well ahead of BMW, Mercedes, Kia, Chevrolet and Hyundai.

Some obviously write shit!
Fact dear boy, fact!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 10:02 AM

A spiffing speech from Boris. Very symbolic to hold it on the prime meridian very close to one of Licolnshire lad Harrison's chronometers.
These two items enabled accurate navigation and concomitant explosive growth of International trade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Tg7jFSwQM

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 10:12 AM

World rankings are no measure of quality. I'm pretty sure that Justin Bieber is more popular worldwide than Martin Carthy. Does that make him better?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 10:35 AM

In a discussion about oranges, why introduce apples?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 10:41 AM

to be honest i think i would prefer a justin bieber gig to martin carthy - he has got very dreary in the last decade or 3. i wouldn't pay for either, mind you

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 10:41 AM

Nissan is a well-respected brand here in the US, in status and reliability coming in above the US car makers Ford, GM, and other imports like Kia, Mitsubishi, etc. And I love my Pathfinder; I can fill it full of people or stuff. It does have more plastic than it used to, but it gets better gas mileage that way.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 10:53 AM

not forgetting the Nissan Dorma - very popular with opera singers touring on a tight budget..

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 10:56 AM

anyways, for all his bluster and lies..

we need to hope boris keeps the tory far right nasty nutters at bay,
and actually delivers some positive results for all of us...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM

I always thought they missed a trick in not having a camper van

The Nissan Dormabile

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 01:15 PM

pfr - if we have learned anything in politics in recent years it must be to imagine the worst that could happen and then expect it to be worse than that. hope is foolishness in the current circumstances and nothing will happen that is good for all of us. on the other hand i've booked some festival tickets today (ireby, shrewsbury) and that's a good thing to do - felt like there is a bit of light and hopefully sunshine at the end of this shitty tunnel. and - i don't think- martin carthy and justin beiber are appearing at either

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 01:38 PM

Here we go... Dom & Dumber adopting more Trump-Tactics in an effort to bring in back-door press censorship, and stifle criticism of Tory chicanery.

Hope the neo-Tories in former Red-Wall areas are pleased with the destructive effect their Tory votes are having on democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 01:49 PM

Workingtonman - I've never been very good at being optimistic...

The last time was probably when I was about 14 [at an all boy's grammar school],
and was sure I would get my hands up inside a girl's bra eventually...

Can't remember which party was in Govt.. I was too preoccupied with the contents of girl's bras..

But i definitely got a lot more action at parties, gigs, and discos
when Wilson and Callaghan were PMs...

Not the sort of statistics we usually see mentioned at elections...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 02:16 PM

Here we go... Dom & Dumber adopting more Trump-Tactics in an effort to bring in back-door press censorship, and stifle criticism of Tory chicanery.

Typical lefty nonsense off the guardian.

The reality courtesy of Guido
https://order-order.com/2020/02/03/lobby-stages-walkout-number-10-briefing/

and of course since Guido started live tweets from No10 press briefings the hacks from such comics as the guardian cannot hide their spin quite so easily.
Terrible things facts

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 02:30 PM

funny how guido and his youtube allies are always right.. innit...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 02:48 PM

Not really!
If the lefties tried original thought instead of blindly following the guardian and the BBC their recent horrendous defeat in the Beneral Election may not have been quite so bad.
There is no point in me telling you this of course, every dispassionate analysis of Labour's recent obliteration comes to the same conclusion.
Just look who you have left as potential corbynators in the leadership challenge, one in trousers, one in a skirtbut same old same old when it comes to policy.
Off to the wilderness with you!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 02:49 PM

So what part of the brain is malfunctioning in fanatical folks
who are absolutely certain they are always in the right,
and anyone they deem to be a foe
is constantly wrong...

I'm almost inclined to think there has possibly been research into this phenomena..??????????????

.and if not, there probably needs to be...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 02:59 PM

Re Streatham, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the 1 state law is a stupid dangerous idea; it's our world/our UN that should be multicultural NOT each nation; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest"

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 03:27 PM

stupid dangerous xenophobe poet
spouting bollocks, and don't we know it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 03:35 PM

I think we know, PFR, that if the latest 2 terrorists in England had been repatriated/deported instead of imprisoned, their attacks would not have occurred.

And as for "xenophobe", I doubt anyone loves our world being multicultural more than I.