BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 04:30 AM

Kenny, Are you speaking for the whole island of Ireland or just the country called the Republic of Ireland?

I can receive the RTE services in the UK, but I don't complain about their terminology. I'm just happy to enjoy the music.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 05:24 AM

Ireland is an island and a nation.
The fact that six counties are under foreign control is irrelevant.

There is no such place as the 'British Isles' and even as a geographical term it is not acceptable in Ireland, so should be discontinued.

The old name for Scotland was North Britain -N.B was once added to postal addresses in Scotland. This was accepted as being offensive to the Scots & is never used nowadays. However it's factually correct unlike the 'British Isles'

( factcheck- they are not all British!).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 05:43 AM

Thread creep personified.
Time to close this thread, it's turning into a bun fight.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:15 AM

The Republic of Ireland is growing into a confident, modern, liberal state.
It is ahead of its neighbour in the north, and is leading it by example.

But, as this sensitivity over a name shows, this new, liberal, confidence isn't shared by everyone.

Next week; Canada declares it is not part of America.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:30 AM

HenryP:

"But The British Isles isn't a territorial term. It's just a toponym with no political significance whatsoever."

All toponyms are arbitrary and therefore of political significance; it's naive to believe otherwise.

To demonstrate: why don't we refer to the archipelago as 'The Irish Isles' for a change - is there political significance then?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:39 AM

"All toponyms are arbitrary" What's arbitrary about "Ireland" or "Madagascar"?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,patriot (irish)
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:39 AM

The root of all this is English attitudes to its neighbours. England is going to need all the friends it can get when all the lies & deceit in this ridiculous Brexit takes are exposed, so why upset them any further?

To return to the thread, the programme is crap

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 07:52 AM

What's arbitrary about "Ireland" or "Madagascar"?

Well, exactly - there is nothing to prevent the one from being called the other.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 08:36 AM

Any chance of getting back to the point I made, that this programme is creating a fucked-up stereotype of racial purity (and probably on purpose)? Here are some statistics on immigrant communities in Ireland (where I think the programme is going next?). More than 10,000 Brazilians means there is going to be some Brazilian-Irish music happening, surely? A lazy Anglocentric dipshit like Radcliffe certainly isn't going to find it, though.

Irish official statistics

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 09:26 AM

Mother, Mother, may I go, may I go, may I go,
Mother, Mother, may I go, to the bonny bunch o’ roses?

Yes, my darling, you may go, you may go, you may go,
Yes, my darling, you may go to the bonny bunch o’ roses.

So, from now on, it's to be, it's to be, it's to be,
So, from now on, it's to be the Bonny Bunch of Roses.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 11:28 AM

I think in the terminological system that makes the programme a 'Folk Map' Brazilian-Irish music would be on a 'World-music Map'.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 11:28 AM

From: Jack Campin Here are some statistics on immigrant communities in Ireland (where I think the programme is going next?).

Sorry, Jack. Next stop is Wales.

The most common non-UK countries of birth among the population of Wales;
Poland 23,000, India 13,000, Germany 11,000, Republic of Ireland 10,000, China, Pakistan 7,000.

Sadly, no sign of Brazilians, but still lots of Irish.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 11:30 AM

Why is it that the Irish "census" statistics do all other nationalities the honour of recognising their country but we, the Scots, the Welsh, the Northern Irish and the English are all lumped together under U.K. This same anomaly exists on the British Census.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 12:38 PM

The most common non-UK countries of birth among the population of Wales;
Poland 23,000, India 13,000, Germany 11,000, Republic of Ireland 10,000, China, Pakistan 7,000.

Wales has a very large immigrant population that goes back generations - country of birth will way underestimate the numbers of people who retain cultural links outside the country.

I have a relative of primary school age, born in Wales and being brought up bilingual. In Welsh and Polish.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 12:57 PM

I still haven't listened to any of these programs..

There's too much far more compelling stuff turning up
on my Youtube daily recommendations...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 01:14 PM

Jack makes a valid point about the mono cultural nature of the artists featured but I think that, given the short time allocated to each programme, it would be impossible to cover a wider cultural scene - and I say that who spends a lot of time listening to music from cultures across the world, some of which is created in the UK. Perhaps the time spent on the connections to Dylan could have been better spent exploring multi cultural music in the UK though it could then be regarded as tokenism. Music Planet on Radio 3 - albeit much shorter than it used to be - provides good coverage of multi cultural music

I enjoyed the England programme more than the Scotland one - though I could have done without Fishermen's Friends. I think generally they had a good spread of music reasonably representative of the more popular end of the folk scene today but I was surprised John Tams, one of the greatest writers and songs in the English folk idiom, wasn't featured and I could think of more interesting singer songwriters than Frank Turner - though it was interesting to hear him as I had not come across him before.

I think we need to remember that this programme is going to be heard by a wider audience than us died in the wool folkies and, given that remit, I didn't think it was a bad attempt. Certainly far from the 'crap' suggested by an earlier correspondent.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 01:22 PM

Joe G - best not to confound old Brit folkies with reason and objectivity...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 01:54 PM

Sorry I forgot ;-)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 01:55 PM

This is how RTE sees Irish folk music.

Folk Season; To mark the inaugural RTÉ Radio 1 Folk Awards which took place in Vicar Street on 25 October 2018, RTÉ Radio 1 presents an accompanying five part feature series exploring some of the myriad strands that make up the world of Irish folk music.

In Search of Song; English singer and song collector, Sam Lee, meets some of the Irish traveller families from whom the late Tom Munnelly collected songs in the 1970s. The programme includes original recordings by Tom Munnelly from the National Folklore Collection UCD and archive material from the RTÉ Archives - listen here.

Sounding the New Tradition; Featuring Martin Hayes and the music of Loah and Nava, we take a look at how the merging of cultures is reflected in the music of Ireland at the moment - listen here.

The Summer of Astral Weeks; As 1968 began, Van Morrison was at his lowest ebb, but as 1968 drew to a close, he had transformed the sound of his music, signed to Warner Brothers, and recorded Astral Weeks - now regarded as one of the greatest album of all time. How did Van Morrison turn his life and career around so dramatically that year? And who were the people and what were the events that made it possible? - listen here.

The Road Well Travelled; Niamh Dunne is the fiddler in Beoga, Ed Sheeran’s favourite Irish band. In The Road Well Travelled, she delves into her musical heritage alongside her father, piper Mickey Dunne. Her grand-uncles The Blind Dunne Brothers were very popular travelling musicians who toured Ireland in the 50s and 60s, and for the first time Niamh takes a closer look at her rich family history - listen here.

Sing It Out Loud; Sing It Out Loud looks at the Irish protest songs of today; who is singing them, what are they about and do they have any impact at all? The programme features Terry Moylan, Aileen Dillane, Stephen James Smith and Lisa O’Neill - listen here.

Folk season

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 03:08 PM

As expected, the "it's not really an English tune/song and they don't have a passport, anyway" voices were much more prominent in Episode 2 than suchlike on the Scottish Episode 1. But then Scotland has about 20% less badly overpaid foreign footballers than the 70% of England's "Premier" League/foreign farce.

And these are the same pro-diversity voices of the BBC's little club who share, on a kind of rotation, awards at their annual folk awards, as the beeb vainly tries to help keep the blasphemous kingdom together.

AFTER PSALM 118:9 AND MATTHEW 4:8-10

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 03:13 PM

Walky - it's mudcat being pro-diversity that allows you to continue posting your crackpottery here...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 03:23 PM

I'm sure all/nearly all here love our world/our UN being multicultural, PFR, but whether each nation should be multicultural/internal ethnic diversity is another matter.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 03:25 PM

I think you'll find all decent people are pro diversity

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 03:34 PM

I'm sure walky can't be that unaware
he is treading a thin line between being humoured as a special needs mate,
and being reported to the authorities for using the internet to spread his pernicious views...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 09:00 AM

Is there still a radio programme ?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 12:11 PM

Do you mean the Folk Map of the Brutish Isles?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 02:56 PM

Still a couple of programmes to go but I feel first I need to digest 150 posts and sit the mudcat 'Define the British Isles' test.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:03 PM

Goodness. So many posts, and the overall impression is rather unkind. Can't we just celebrate a broadcast that talks about what we like?
What on earth has gone wrong with this place? Thank heavens Seth and his dad Geoff (an old mucker of mine) won't see this litany or misery and mean-mindedness.
And with that, I'm off to lurk for another five years, Enjoy your misanthropy, chaps.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 07:00 PM

Geoff came to our folk club with his black concertina job, along with his mates in Jinx's Stack, in nineteen ninety early something. He played hardly anything and was a bit scathing about some of us who were just starting out and who were admittedly green behind the ears. It wasn't a great night to be honest.
,

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 05:49 AM

Who was "Geoff"? And what does that post relate to?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 06:16 AM

Geoff Lakeman, the lads' dad. He was mentioned in the post before mine.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 08:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 20 - 05:57 PM
You are talking Lakepersons of Crapstone-in-Yelverton here...

From: Jack Campin Date: 12 Feb 20 - 08:36 AM
A lazy Anglocentric dipshit like Radcliffe certainly isn't going to find it, though.

From: Gervase Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:03 PM
Thank heavens Seth and his dad Geoff won't see this litany or misery and mean-mindedness.

From: Jack Campin Date: 14 Feb 20 - 05:49 AM
Who was "Geoff"? And what does that post relate to?

From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 20 - 06:16 AM
Geoff Lakeman, the lads' dad. He was mentioned in the post before mine.

Seth Lakeman - not Mark Radcliffe - is the presenter of this series. According to the rather delicate Wikipedia, he grew up with his two brothers, Sean and Sam, in the village of Buckland Monachorum in West Devon. Sean is married to Kathryn Roberts, Sam to Cara Dillon.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 07:25 AM

OK-
So when all these folk alumni give out a lot of duff information and outrageous and unsubstantiated theories on behalf of a trusted broadcaster to an audience who are largely ignorant about the subject, is that not a problem?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST, henryp
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM

Not with you here to lead us to the truth.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 12:37 PM

Dread to think how much more disgruntled moaning there'd be
if instead of Seth Lakeman, the presenter was Billy Bragg...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM

so its no problem? Is it now set in stone that the 'Freedom Come all ye was written in the 20s because the BBc said so?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 01:09 PM

GUEST - now you wouldn't be one of those
"any petty opportunity to have a go at the Beeb" agenda agitators, would you...???

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 01:50 PM

More opportunities for outrage at 9.00pm tonight on BBC Radio 2.

In this third episode Seth focuses on Wales, the land of song. He hears from Welsh harpist Catrin Finch, singer-songwriter Martyn Joseph, folk singer Gwilym Bowen Rhys, Iolo Whelan of Pendevig, fiddle player Oliver Wilson Dickson, singer Gwyneth Glyn, and five-piece band Calan.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 02:02 PM

I love Calan!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 05:00 PM

Re episode 3, notice how (apart from stating that their national instrument - the triple harp - originally came for Italy) Welsh folkies, unlike English on Episode 2 (as I said above), felt no need to say this or that tune/song is not really Welsh and they don't have passports anyway...don't you think modern English could at least be a bit more nationalistic?

Than said, I enjoyed most of it - apart from the Manic Street Preachers and their heavily Americanised look-I'm-almost-Jon-Bon-Jovi rubbish.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 06:13 PM

In passing; Friday 21 February 9.30pm BBC4 TV

Rock Island Line: The Song that Made Britain Rock

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Guest 15 Feb 12.42
Date: 16 Feb 20 - 05:19 AM

Hello punkfolkrocker- am no anti-BBC agitator!
The opposite if anything- BUT if the respected BBC puts out duff information which is perceived as the truth, then the only people who will be happy are the TORIES, whose destructive plans can be seen in today's newspapers. What else is the BBC misleading us about?

Let's hope THE ROCK ISLAND line programme is better informed, and gives LONNIE Donegan due credit as the writer of the song.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Feb 20 - 07:13 AM

....... if the respected BBC puts out duff information which is perceived as the truth, .......

.................

Let's hope THE ROCK ISLAND line programme is better informed, and gives LONNIE Donegan due credit as the writer of the song.



According to Wikipedia:- The earliest known version of "Rock Island Line" was written in 1929 by Clarence Wilson, ......


Is it Wikipedia or our Guest who is putting out duff information?

DC

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 05:18 AM

I very much enjoyed the Welsh programme especially as it featured both Calan and Jamie Smith's Mabon ( who I am sad to learn are embarking on their final tour this year). I'm partial to a bit of the Manics so no problems there for me :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 05:35 AM

One of the best things Welsh (in m'humble) was the album Whilia by Fernhill which featured the wonderful singing of Julie Murphy. It's been one of my favourite CDs for yonks.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 06:50 AM

Huw Williams, who now manages Calan, trvelled to America to make a programme about the Rock Island Line for Radio Wales, repeated on BBC Radio 4 in 2010.

From timscoverstory; We will finish with one more observation about Lonnie Donegan. He frequently complained that he received only a £10 fee for his recording of Rock Island Line, his biggest hit. Technically, this is true – Donegan was paid “scale” as a musician for recording the song.

However, Donegan conveniently forgot to mention that he had copyrighted the song Rock Island Line. Thus, although the song had a substantial history before Donegan ever encountered it, and though Donegan basically produced a note-for-note copy of Leadbelly’s tune, Donegan subsequently received all of the music royalties from the song.

Furthermore, if someone later produced a version of the song, Donegan would then receive additional songwriting royalties! So, not only did Lonnie Donegan reap a bountiful harvest of copyright royalties from Rock Island Line, he did so at the expense of Leadbelly, and conceivably also Kelly Pace who fashioned the first modern version of this song.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 08:31 AM

An annotated map that actually does what this thread has printed on the tin should be perfectly doable these days, with user-contributed content labelling the locations - places described in songs or with tunes associated with them, places where performers or collectors worked, locations of libraries or instrument collections, folk-related graves...

Anybody here know about adding layers to Google, Bing or Apple maps?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,guest 15 feb 1242
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 08:36 AM

Don't think Doug Chadwick has a sense of humour-

also maybe Lonnie deserved any dosh he got- after all, he almost single handedly got the popular folk revival going- he can't be held responsible for the shambles it is today... that's down to you folkies

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 09:48 AM

Yes, Jack Campin, like this excellent map of Scottish witchcraft accusations!

https://witches.is.ed.ac.uk

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 10:11 AM

That map is a bit too detail-heavy to load on my phone, but I think I know it from before. Dalkeith, not far from where I live, was the worst place for witch-hunting, though the only place where we'd have an overlap with the folk map would be North Berwick, with the surviving chant from 1592. Its major tourist draw now is golf, but raising a storm to kill the king has to be more topical.

All together now in the direction of Mustique or Mar-a-Lago: "Cummer go ye before..."