BS: pestilential buzz flies

Subject: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: mg
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 06:16 PM

Someone else came up with this perfect term, in the context of men being nasty in general to woman. But it could be any combination of gender nastiness to same or other gender (or is it sex..I never remember). I am someone who likes men, who respects them..who sticks up for them if they personally did not do anything wrong. I do not generalize about men. That being said, I am pretty much immune to some of their nasty comments etc. because i do not give a flying you know what what their opinion of me is. Unfortunately, this is not true for many women (I will use m vs w in this case but it can go many ways). Oh, but I want him to find me attractive. Nope. Oh but I want him to love me. Nope. Oh but I want social status. Nope. I do admit wanting a date for the office party but that is about it. Women..young women..free yourself from wanting or needing approval from men who are just not worth it. They know they aren't worth it. You have to know they aren't worth it. I don't find them powerful over me at all. If they are worth it, give it all you have, but the minute there is any sort of ridicule, certainly abuse, chuck them out of your lives.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: mg
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 06:20 PM

I should strongly state that I do not find men in general to be abusive, and certainly have almost zero incidence in my own life. I do not find men to have power over me at all. I know what many have gone through and greatly respect that. But it happens..and if it does to you don't be heartbroken..be disgusted because you have dealt with vermin. Call in the emotional exterminators.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Helen
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 06:57 PM

I totally agree, mg.

Not give a flying flock. That's my latest phrase. I kind of like it.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 07:03 PM

I think there are unpleasant people of both sexes around. And as you say, they're best avoided. But I've found most people to be reasonably nice. However, regarding attitudes of men on a dating basis, young women would do well to safeguard their self-respect.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 07:39 PM

Well thank God we have you to provide the balance, Eliza (you know that I love you and would love Norwich City to stay up...) The men here are, in my view, always respectful, without necessarily focusing on the issue all the time, of women and men alike, and, if there's a spat, it's generally nowt to do with gender. Helen and mg had better be aware that playing the gender card is not quite the same as playing the feminist card. From my experience of donkeys' years on this forum, that simply is unnecessary, and could actually bring the cause of women into disrepute. My antennae are finely tuned to pick up misogyny and other prejudices on this forum. I get on beautifully with Maggie, aka SRS, in this forum and I'm sure, if you asked her, and if she had the time, that she'd tell you that my credentials apropos of women's' issues are pretty impeccable. Despite all my other faults, of course. Don't ask her about all those. She's not here to write lengthy essays... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: mg
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 07:43 PM

Rude person nunber 3, I have probably never in my life played a gender card. And I doubt played the feminist card. I try to play the neutral observer card.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 09:16 PM

Thanks, Steve. :)

I find much to agree with in Rebecca Solnit's short volume of essays Men Explain Things To Me. I've run into a lot of men over the years who feel entitled to insist that their point of view is the correct one.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 09:22 PM

No.. it seems quite clear to actual neutral observers.
you are playing the bruised ego 'bee in your bonnet / getting your own back' card...

There is nothing at all objective about what you are doing here,
or for most of your unfocused peevish interactions in the other thread...

btw.. you are not a mudcatter who has stuck to my radar,
so I can't remember how we got on if we crossed paths before.

I didn't even consider your gender until someone called you Mary very recently.
You may have mentioned your gender before that,
but if you did, I never noticed such an irrelevant detail
while speed reading to catch up on the thread..

In fact "mg" might have inclined me to think you were an old bloke
because of the classic British sports car...

You may be younger or older than me.. I don't know..
But you are coming over as an attention seeking petty minded kid who didn't get it's own way...

Alarm bells sounded at your first attempts to claim the superior moral high ground;
accusing folks of being abusive,
when you were so offended at having your sillier ill founded ideas criticized
and made fun of in open public forum.

Now that's a neutral objective observation...


pfr/rude person no 4
[possibly to be awarded accolade "rude person no 1", after you read this...]

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 09:25 PM

PFR, if you run into Mary in the music section, pay attention. She's very talented.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 09:34 PM

Stilly - upstairs is a different game..

There are some musicians up there I seriously respect,
despite them not always being the easiest folks to get on with,
or always like..

I think you know I generally don't hold grudges,
so I'd be happy to converse with mg on shared music interests,
to value her knowledge and abilities..

She is now obviously on my radar,
for future more positive interactions...

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Helen
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 09:38 PM

Thanks Maggie,

That book looks worth reading. Mansplaining! Of course!

"From rape culture to mansplaining, from French sex scandals to marriage and the nuclear family, from Virginia Woolf to colonialism, these essays are a fierce and incisive exploration of the issues that a patriarchal culture will not necessarily acknowledge as 'issues' at all."

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: mg
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 10:14 PM

I might not even bother giving you a number unless I already have. You are not on my radar for having personal conversations with at all. Why would you be? Like a ittle fly buzzing in my ear. If I should ever want your opinion, I will ask for it. Rude person number one will not be mentioned because he or she crossed the line into what I consider abuse. Dead to me forever.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: mg
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 10:27 PM

Older/Middle Aged Woman..we must somehow educate younger women (and I am totally aware this works m/f, f/m, other nonbinary situations) on how to not engage with pestilential buzz flies. I have been by and large not bothered so I have not had too much personal experience, but I have seen the ruination of so many younger women. You have to head them off at the pass. You have to take responsibility for your own abuse if you are physically safe doing so. You have to tell others of their behavior. You have to know the signs of abuse, and some are subtle.

Here is a really really good one. Leave. Leave everything behind except your children and for God's sake try to not have children with creepy creeps. If they blow hot and cold..he only hits me when he is drunk...usually he is nice but he is under stress...if he is up and down with how he treats you, get tf out. They ..abusers of any gender/sex know how to keep you wondering. They will temporarily reform. take their worst behavior, and use it as what you always are dealing with. Don't take their best behavior if it goes up and down a lot. And of course watch your own behavior. There is no man, not the last man on earth, that is worth taking abuse from. Don't take my personal advice because I have not experienced it...just witnessed and gone what are you thinking of staying with him. HE/SHE IS NOT WORTH IT.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 10:50 PM

mg - I think your good caring friends need to have a private word with you,
before you continue posting as you are in this thread;
or any other more robust knockabout debates in BS...

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Helen
Date: 07 Mar 20 - 11:05 PM

It is not so simple for women to just leave.

The difficult part for me in a previous relationship about 30 years ago was recognising what he was really doing. He was a charmer. A chameleon. He could present a specific personality to the world and I had been taken in by that. Afterwards I spent time beating myself up emotionally for being fooled by him, but he was very practiced and clever and he fooled a lot of people.

I was lucky because I didn't have children and I did have a job. I left him. I bought my own house instead of living in rented houses. After I recovered from the stress and strain my life became a lot better and I did not get caught again by that type of personality in personal relationships.

A bit further down the track I was having financial issues and I needed a job fast. I took a job which turned out to be a bad bullying situation. I stayed for a year and a half but left as soon as I had the chance.

One area which I had started looking into back then was bullies and bullying personalities. I definitely think there were some correlations with narcissism or sociopathy to the personalities of both my ex partner and my ex boss.

This book relates to narcissism.

Enough About You, Let's Talk About Me

One of the key factors I noticed in both situations was a lack of empathy for other people. I have worked with a couple of other bullies who have that problem.

It's extremely difficult to negotiate with someone who does not care about anyone except him/herself.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 09:45 AM

What Are the Signs of Domestic Abuse?

Domestic abuse has come up here, but it is different than the "mansplaining" thing that is part of "men being nasty in general to women." Or mansplaining is a subset, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 10:04 AM

Mothers you have to teach your sons well.
Good guys don't happen, they have to be carefully and vehemently taught. Mine did.

There is not much you can do about those psychologicaly empty of empathy. The proportion of social psychopaths is as high as 20%
Narcissists are only a fraction of chameleon pschopaths.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 10:17 AM

If I interject or interupt I am accused of mansplaining.
Its frustrating on both sides when it happens but I guess its true since I could be wrong.

My excuse;
Its just that a passing thought gets lost so easily in my circuitry.
Reality;
I'm guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: mg
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 10:28 AM

Watch for smarmy fake solicitous grooming. It can sound exactly like true concern..use the same words etc. Listen to your gut. Check with othets. "I am telling you this for your own good. I have your best interests at heart. Just not a good color on you. Yes it really does make your butt look fat. I wouldn't tell you this if I didn't love you.". Others who have been through this can add better. I am realizing more and more how lucky I have been.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 12:18 PM

Is anyone taking nominations for the most inane, ridiculous thread of all time?

Question posed with all due gender neutrality.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 12:33 PM

The me too movement is a good beggining stage for mg. I think she is a work in progress. So she will grow and hopefully become more concise in her quest for understanding and communication.
Give her space for some time...
Then she can ignore some of these early forays into gender relations.

In the meantime stay away from conspiracy theories like you would anthrax spores mg. :^/

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 12:41 PM

Mudcat should have opened an appropriate serious thread for "International Women's Day 2020"..

But not this one, by this specific mudcatter, indulging her personal egotistical ulterior motives...???

Btw.. I'm a humanist first, male second... if it matters...

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 01:21 PM

I have personal egotistical ulterior motives for black holes. so what.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 01:33 PM

so what, indeed...

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 01:37 PM

agreed

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 02:01 PM

Anything, if it stops you taking over and monopolising
the one Women's Day thread that does exist...

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 02:19 PM

For only $9.99 a week you can be my editor. :^/
Miss 3 payments in a row and the deal is off. :^\

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 02:49 PM

I think mg is right to feel protective of certain types of young women who may be vulnerable to 'buzz flies' and their strategies. But due to the meedja I should think that many youngsters nowadays are well aware of their own rights to respect and dignity.
There are a few predatory manipulative and dodgy men around (Prince Andrew?) and if all women have a sisterly support system they can encourage and warn each other of the pitfalls and dangers.
I'm sure there are unpleasant women on the planet too, who can break men's hearts and use them mercilessly for their own ends.
I love you too Steve (big hug!) and thank you for your good wishes for Norwich City FC, but we think they've bloomin' had it and will go down!
Husband is thrilled about Man U though. He's wearing their top this afternoon! (Premier League tart)

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 04:28 PM

No one is immune from being a jerk. Nobody is always righteous.

It's like racism. Back when Biden said that thing about "there's not a racist bone in my body."
No. Bones aren't racist. BUT, I"m interpreting your statement to mean you never have to question yourself. That is frightening as hell.

I once noticed I had certain thoughts about people's future, and they were different based on the person's race, so I tried to figure out why. I don't think I'm a racist. I loathe racism, but if I refuse to see it, I can't ever get rid of it.

The same thing happens with sexism. Back during the start of "me too", I thought "That stuff happened to everybody. It was normal.

Think about THAT fo a while. WHY was it normal? Should we should have objected sooner? Did bad things continue to happen because people like me thought it was a status quo that nobody could change?

Most of the time, it's not worth fighting with the "buzzing flies". They'll figure things out on their own, or they won't. It's mostly a waste of time, and emotional energy, to go through life thinking you can do anything to facilitate other people's enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: mg
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 05:06 PM

I am sorry if I insulted the flies.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 09:24 PM

In my teen years lo these many decades ago, I found that only straight American men were assholes, but only to women who either wouldn't, or already had, bedded them.

Not much has changed.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 09:24 PM

Guys, clear out. I've deleted the last half-dozen posts in which you're illustrating exactly the point early posters were attempting to make. Go bicker someplace else.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 09:31 PM

You go, Stilly.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Mar 20 - 10:08 PM

Oh, delete the shit.
This thread is what people should point to as an example of "butt hurt"

"Oh gosh, she's talking about some men. Must be about me. I think I'll attack her."

Have a Coke and a smile.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 01:23 AM

This is not the first time that a Mudcat member tells moderators what their job is and how to do it. And not the first Mudcat member to do so.

Won't be the last, either, at this rate.
Members telling moderators what to do, gets results, all right,
but it may not be the result that said member intended.
Word to the wise.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: mg
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 02:59 AM

actually, I opened this thread to keep comments off the very necessary pandemic thread, in which life and death matters were discussed. Topics I brought up were people going into emergency rooms, infecting doctors. At least one, and I think more, doctor died from this. I am very concerned about the handling and transporting of bodies, both dead and alive. How to handle the body bag situation. How to keep drivers safe as they are transporting decayed bodies. This is all very serious and appropriate stuff for pandemic discussion and frankly, I have not heard people discuss it anywhere. And I don't know why.

I don't think I have used other women for any purpose at all. My feelings are as I said..biggest one is disgust. I have no hurt feelings at all because no one involved has earned my interest enough to hurt me.
"
"low tolerance for manipulative folks
who hijack and abuse progressive positive political causes
for their own devious selfish motives and gain.." I have absolutely no idea what this means at all. What has anything have to do with abusing progressive positive political causes ??? What?   Devious selfish motives? I can assure you that I am interested in saving lives right now..the lives that people are not thinking of. Lives in other countries. I think everyone should be asking questions and making suggestions. I have no credentials at all as a feminist and I rhapsodized at some point about how positive I was about men..in general...and abuse or mere nastiness can come in any sort of gender pattern..or same gender or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 08:35 AM

While I think a lot of the medical stuff is nutty...
I ignore "your job is to..." comments coming from people whose only purpose at Mudcat seems to be to actively seek out that which pisses them off. It's an Internet thing. Recreational offendedness. It's how people avoid dealing with things they can't deal with - go on line and try to make OTHER people miserable. It's in a bunch of different threads.

Use let him have his reaction, and move on. You don't have to answer him.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 08:49 AM

"Your job is to" -- did the spelling checker get that one?

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 08:56 AM

'recreational offendedness' hee hee I love that Jeri! Here in UK we have 'Disgusted from Tunbridge Wells' (ie someone who keeps sending letters to the newspapers complaining non-stop)
I just wish everyone everywhere could try to cultivate a sort of universal goodwill and congeniality. It can disarm aggressiveness and reassure others that things are not so bad. Many folk are under stress these days and a bit of kindness, a smile or a little joke can oil the wheels of society.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 10:02 AM

Senoufou, I love you!
When I first came here, it was a wonderfully supportive place. It was safe.
Now, it seems to be a minefield, with a small number for angry people who come here only to do battle. Like most other places on the Internet.
If we don't want to be a part of that culture, we simply don't give in to the urge.
There are still good things.

It also really helps to remember those angry people may be going through something bad, and it doesn't make anything better to try to make their lives even harder.

In the original post:

They know they aren't worth it.
That may be the problem. Or maybe they don't CARE if they're "worth it". Love doesn't mean muuch.

You have to know they aren't worth it.
no...NO!

What they DO isn't worth it. THEY are. People can learn. People can change. If they bother us, we can avoid dealing directly with them. There are a lot of reasons why people behave badly. Raising the stakes and lashing out at somebody who's in pain generally just makes everybody unhappier. I don't have to like everyone, but hatred and anger are more damaging to ME than other ways to feel.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 10:19 AM

Feeling "disgust", feeling 'offended' is far too rampant a problem these days.
The internet, all social networks, are overburdened with sanctimonious folks
feeling disgusted and offended...

It's a weakness some folks over indulge in, and exaggerate to rationalise feeling morally superior.
When they have no justification to do so..

Such oversensitive folks can be a persistent pain in the backside
in chat forum communities..
Debates get hijacked and sidetracked by disgruntled disgusted folks
when they insist on making their bruised feelings
the center of attention and argument...

Chilling out is a healthier and more sociable state of mind than disgust...

It's far better net etiquette to suck it up and brush it off...

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM

Men posting here to complain about women's feelings and anger is so tone deaf it makes me wonder how they ever came across Mudcat in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 02:28 PM

Stilly - delete this ASAP..

I am posting here as a fellow human being - not as a man..

Nor as a sexist, misogynist, anti feminist, incel..

I'd hoped mudcat was a place for sophisticated thinkers...???

If you want a women only Safe space thread,
it's not up to me to question the validity of that..

mg may know her real reasons for the provocative title she opened this specific thread with.
It stretches credulity that she didn't want certain men to post here responding to it...???

So they could be slapped back down, and kicked out for just being men...???

Being denied a voice just because of my gender,
in a thread that was not clearly designated "women only",
does seem a bit contrary to mudcat's generally accepted tolerant liberal outlook and ethos...???

Would it be considered mansplaining if I humbly suggested, from now on, the label "women only" could be used as required in some thread titles.

There's nothing wrong with simple ground rules that we can comply with, and respect...

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Helen
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 03:14 PM

Thanks everyone for your insightful comments. I'll have to re-read them to fully absorb what everyone is saying.

pfr, I don't think that the intention of this thread was for women only. As mg has stated gender is not necessarily the issue.

The problem as I see it is that one particular person (and one hanger-on) has been making some annoying personal comments and following certain people from thread to thread. In my observations there seemed to be a basis where women were being targeted more than men. So for me it seemed that gender was part of the issue. I think this thread was opened out of sheer frustration.

All the tactics I tried to employ seemed to make no difference.

Thanks Jeri for the reminder that it is the actions and not the person who should be addressed. After some weeks of this frustrating behaviour I think it was getting more difficult for me to to separate the person from the actions.

If we can recognise our own weaknesses and strengths then we can usually move forward, onward and upward hopefully. If a person obstinately refuses to recognise personal weaknesses and persists in the same behaviour then no progress is made.

George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Or restated, those who cannot learn from the past ...

Or, if we keep doing the same things we will get the same results.

I'm hopeful that we can all contribute positively to Mudcat in our own unique ways.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 03:49 PM

I'm really trying to exclude myself from this thread..
this is my final post here.

Helen - cheers for your calm voice of reason...
I can't speak for the men you hint at,
or guess exactly who the 2nd one is.. [no name & shame required...]

But I'm a life long result of 1970s and 1980s anti racist, and anti sexist youth movements..
[a massive formative influence on my generation of UK indie culture musicians...]
..and a very radical progressive Humanities degree.

All my adult life I have only enjoyed relationships with strong independent empowered women
..and wouldn't want it any other way...

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Mossback
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 04:15 PM

Would it be considered mansplaining if I humbly suggested, from now on, the label "women only" could be used as required in some thread titles.

As long as there can be "guys only" threads as well - that would be real "gender equality", yes? Jesus Wept.

one particular person (and one hanger-on) has been making some annoying personal comments and following certain people from thread to thread

Please supply these Names? Threads? Comments? and stop being "coy". Or is this Tailgunner Joe tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 04:18 PM

Being denied a voice just because of my gender,
in a thread that was not clearly designated "women only",
does seem a bit contrary to mudcat's generally accepted tolerant liberal outlook and ethos...???

You'd think that, but part of the exercise appears to have evolved - to see if men could resist putting their two cents worth in. You can't even begin to imagine how many times women have been denied voices or standing, because of their gender. Still are. Appreciating something and standing up and speaking about that appreciation - it uses up the oxygen in the room and makes you feel good. Women may be glad you feel this way, but it doesn't make many things any easier for many women.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Helen
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 04:59 PM

Do I still need to name them? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 05:07 PM

This ISN'T a tu quoque moment, we're not putting the shoe on the other foot. No whataboutism this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: pestilential buzz flies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 05:25 PM

Annoying, isn't it? Men can't make themselves heard.

The point has been made, I think.