Will folk clubs survive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 02:40 AM

"So 2m apart and maybe facemasks for a year or two."
Time for people to have a think and maybe plan ahead - I hope that timeline is a pessimistic one though

We had a wonderful confirmation of what is happening here in Ireland yesterday
For some time now there have been signs of more and more young people following the lead of musicians and taking up the traditional songs; we have met some of them
We have been asked permission to use of some of our recordings for a new project - they are planning to issue an album of source singers as an example of where they are learning their songs from - we couldn't reply quickly enough
It seems some people aren't suffering from cultural amnesia
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 09:20 PM

"it is more important to have suitable places to sing the music , "
That's the truest thing anybody can say about folk song and the snide comment about your being professional certainly sorts the white hats from the black hats in this difference of opinion"

No truer word ever spoken!!

I will now make it a personal goal to actually to travel to and go and listen to Dick Miles perform. I am sure that I will thoroughly enjoy the experience.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:00 PM

If the lockdown goes on for 5 years, at least the grass roots will survive. Plenty of young people I know have already invested a lot of time and energy in that. I'm not worried about that. I feel sorry for Brian and Nick and I'm hopeful they will be able to resume once that is possible.

As a researcher and performer not needing to put bread on the table I am simply getting on with a lot of research and playing a bit of music and learning some new songs now and then for a break.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: JHW
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 03:17 PM

Will folk clubs survive (the pandemic?)
Tonight the word is we may have to maintain social distanceing until there's a vaccine.
So 2m apart and maybe facemasks for a year or two.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:42 PM

I've been away for a few days, but on reading most of the later posts I see that the work of the Corries is spoken of with derision by some of the contributors. Perhaps this will give these gendarmes pause for thought   
Highland Lament

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 11:46 AM

On risk factors I do hope that "we" do not try to return to normal too soon ~Trump of course wishes to do just that ~ the overriding consideration is that the virus will return even stronger and in areas not affected before ~ not helpful to the economy also but!!

It will all take time and strange happening will happen ~ god 'elp us!

I do think it important that established venues and sessions are maintained ~ people may think that also, having suffered this lockdown effect for a period

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 11:44 AM

"Perhaps something like"
I agree qith that 100%
I'd buy you a drink if they were open
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 10:09 AM

It will depend on much of a risk we perceive there to be from the virus. That's why testing is important and we need more localised information as to how prevalent it might be locally.

At present, we get the figures for Lothian, for example, which are quite high at over 1000(of course, they'll be much higher)but not for individual towns. I presume most cases are in Edinburgh but we don't know for sure.

If it falls back to a similar level at the beginning of March and appeared to be under control, a lot of people might be fairly relaxed with that as long they had enough information to decide.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 09:47 AM

I'm afraid I share Jack's pessimism about 'getting back to normal'. Even for the smaller informal events which some of you think may be able to re-open before the larger concerts, it may still be difficult to persuade people - many of them in the most vulnerable age group - that it's OK to get together in a confined space. Has anyone yet mentioned the droplets that we spray around the room when we sing? And that's before we consider the likelihood of many more pubs closing.

I have come across one or two older pros who are already thinking it may be the end of the road. Like Nick, I've been performing a long time and could probably get by without the gigs, but it would really grieve me to see communal music-making impossible for months or years - and just when we were seeing quite a few young people discovering the joys of the singaround. I have taken part in a couple of virtual song sessions but, although enjoyable, the experience is nothing like sharing songs, chat and laughter in the same room. Let's hope I'm proved wrong, and bring on that vaccine...

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 09:20 AM

Rather conversely it will be the grass-roots music scenes that are more likely to survive and thrive. It is the more commercial genres that will suffer the more the longer the lockdown goes on.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 09:15 AM

Jack,

I agree that the "touring circuit" will take quite a while to recover but more local artists might find it easier to do bookings.

Smaller clubs like Nitten(in Scotland) and similar which tend to focus more on singaround/resident nights might fare better at the start. They also have guests but these usually tend to be smaller names with a few exceptions and only happen on a monthly basis.

If the venues are open for other purposes then it should be possible to hold such events with care.

Again, it's over pessimistic to assume that most of us over a certain age(Includes both of us) will die. Even among the older age group, a majority of people should recover.
Besides, I'd certainly feel much safer sitting in a folk club albeit a safe distance from everybody than visiting the supermarket.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 09:04 AM

Among many other interests I have a two-pronged cause.

1) For people who have never experienced or shown an interest in folk music to be given the opportunity to sample good quality versions, albeit it at grass-roots level.

2) Those who are already interested in 'folk music' in its wider sense, to give them the opportunity to come further into the fold, by making available good quality traditional folk music along with that which follows on from this tradition, i.e., revival music in the same vein.

As an organiser and performer those are my main goals and I know there are many others doing the same all around the country.

Those who deny this is happening are an insult to this and the music.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

A folk club needs to get a lot of ducks in a row to reopen.

The performers have to be able to get there. The audience has to be able and willing to put up with the risks of getting there and sitting there, and willing to pay. The venue has to be solvent enough to pay its bills, which will include an unknown amount of liability insurance.

No projection puts a vaccine closer than months away. If the UK leaves the EMA it'll be more than a year for regulatory reasons. Drug treaments may come quicker but probably won't stop the pandemic any faster, if experience with TB (the most successful medical intervention yet for a highly contagious disease) is anything to go by. So I'm going with the currently more conservative estimates for how long social distancing needs to go on for. And the relatively old folk club audience is likely be more cautious than most (also more likely to be dead or permanently disabled by the virus, which won't help put bums on seats)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 08:38 AM

"much of the above was almost lost in the modern world and folk clubs"

Sorry Jim. I should have constructed the sentence better as the excerpt you've quoted now conveys a different meaning from what I intended.

Perhaps something like

"Of course, much of the above was almost lost in the modern world. Folk clubs and the work done by many performers, activists, academics and so on in preserving same and keeping the music alive was very important."

would be better.

I hadn't intended "modern world" and "folk clubs" to be in the same box, in this instance. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 08:30 AM

"There are dozens of outlets for folk music available to us."
Not to guarantee to keep it either folk and certainly not grass root
Stating this without putting facts behind it and refusing to respond is Iainism writ large

Some of what Johnny says make s sense with one exception
"much of the above was almost lost in the modern world and folk clubs"
By the time the clubs arrived what Johnny describes had disappeared - to a degree, some clubs reintroduces it, but as it came from a different world, it was neither possible nor desirable to aim to bring it bak - that would have been as artificial coming to the clubs in straw hats and crinolines
The clubs were largely a n urban phenomenon - the significant rural communities had largely vanished if they hadn't been eaten up
As far as I can judge, you were never guaranteed an audience for say big ballads ot shanties, in the rural venues - in some areas ritual songs would have been not only odd but downright unlucky in the places where the customs still prevailed - that remained the case in parts of rural Ireland where even a bodhran was a taboo instrument (instead of the pain in the arse it now is)

Folk song proper is as 21st century as Shakespeare and Johnson - and if respected (in very short supply nowadays there is no reason for it remaining so -
THe only difference between The Bard and Folk Song is that one works as a grass-roots art - the other is bums-on-seats - long may that continue to be the case
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 08:25 AM

As someone used to say "I agree with Nick" :-))

I also think we'll be able to do something by six months time. Perhaps not large concerts nor sports events but certainly informal gatherings and smaller events which would include folk clubs could be feasible.

There may be still be some restrictions on numbers and spacing, of course.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

I don't like the Open Mic format either but some folk clubs and festivals have actually encouraged this over the years.

Of course, in the above cases, it was intended to encourage performers of "our kind of music" but an unfortunate consequence was that more singer songwriters, poets, and other "experimental" artists were also attracted.

It's more of a phenomenon at festivals and the like.. e.g. Danny Kyle's Open Stage at Celtic Connections and so on but this also happens at many other festivals over the years. In fact, it was a regular feauture at Edinburgh Folk Festival and some smaller Scottish festivals as far back as the early eighties.

More recently, Edinburgh Folk Club has been trying to revive the non guest night format but, unfortunately, was sending out "mixed messages" as to what was involved or expected. Sometimes it was advertised as an Open Mic format when it was intended to be a Singaround or, on occasions, a "residents' night". It wasn't clear if the latter meant the regular floor performers/supports or for members generally!
I'm sure many clubs are guilty of perpetuating this confusion.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 08:14 AM

No wriggling Dick. If you can find where I said I wanted people to go to open mic nights, other than in your head, please provide the link to it. Sorry if you misunderstood but that is not really my problem is it. If you want to waste your time finding hidden meanings and agendas in my posts that's up to you but I, for one, will not waste any more effort on it.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 08:07 AM

stop wriggling Dave,
you wished to drag people[ presumably jim and me] into the 21st century ,open mics are a recnt phenomenon and part of the 21st century folk revival, how else do you think i came to that conclusion, if you did not mean it, be specific as to what you fucking well meant, what did you mean with this snide comment, come on tell us.
Dave i do not need to to be dragged by you into the 21st century i recently [feb] had two very good gigs at stoke and stockton where people listened and participated and sang choruses, i received a complimentary message from one of the organisers
stop wasting everyones time and when you make these remarks explain yourself clearly.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 08:06 AM

Jack I think you are being a bit pessimistic when you say a year I would say about six months at the most. People love travelling to festivals seeing and singing with old friends. Professional performers will not so much 'call it a day' as simply go back to how they started by singing folk songs for the love of it. I've been singing for 45 years and have played most clubs and festivals in the UK, but I am just as happy in a sing around. That said I think you have a point about regular internet appearances. That will not do any harm to the music, and may spark some interest.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 07:44 AM

Dick, your reasoning makes no sense. How you get from "Some people need to move into the 21st century" to me wanting you to perform at open mic nights is beyond me. Nothing is further from the truth. Only you had mentioned open mic nights. FWIW I went to a few more than 10 years back and I never equated them with folk music then. I have not been to one since. There are dozens of outlets for folk music available to us. Folk clubs are still probably the best places to perform and listen to folk music but they are far from the only ones. As the current Covid19 crisis has proved. Which is what started this thread.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 07:26 AM

However much you might like folk clubs, there are two awkward realities.

Firstly, on present trends, no gathering of that sort is likely to be feasible for a year or more - not just folk clubs, but weddings, Pilates classes, church services, Masonic rituals, the Womens Institute or big screen football. This will be a more drastic hiatus than has ever happened in wartime. It isn't just the clubs and their venues that will have a problem getting started again, many professional performers (and probably all the older ones) will call it a day.

Secondly, unlike wartime, there is an alternative that does provide a sustainable medium for many kinds of music, and which is particularly well suited to folk, given a bit of adjustment by performers and listeners. The internet wasn't around for people living through the London Blitz or the siege of Sarajevo, but it is now. For the foreseeable future it's all we've got, and it's going to change our expectations; we will get used to listening and performing alone, and we will learn to do without the performers who fall silent. Whatever happens when this is over will be shaped by what we are about to go through.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 07:14 AM

i have not dismissed you ,yet.
you made a comment about dragging people in to the 21st century, well since some of the venue sin the 21st century are open mics, i am making it clear that i do not want you to drag me to an open mic to hear folk music being treated like wall paper music. this is what you said
Folk music has moved into the 21st century very well. It's about time some people did.
well since folk music has moved in to open mics, you must think since you say it is moved very well, that open mics are good. i do not think that my conclusion is unreasonable, if you did not mean that why did you make the comment. you do agree where are in the 21st century and open mics are one of the venues where it is played and you have said that it has moved in to the 21st century very well, if you dont mean this make yourself feckin clearer

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 06:44 AM

Thanks, Johnny J. Your last line pretty much sums up what I have been trying to get across.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:48 AM

"it is more important to have suitable places to sing the music , "
That's the truest thing anybody acn say about folk song and the snide comment about your being professional certainly sorts the white hats from the black hats in this difference of opinion
I have my reservations about how important paid singers have to the future of folk song - it depends how much they take out and how much they put back (and whether the latter should be, to some degree mandatory - but evry singer of folk song needs a decent listening venue or else they are being degraded and exploited (if they are paid)
Out binman works to an agreed standard and I'd never have been able to d my job with a crowd of noisy drunks getting in may way
Why sould singers have tio settle for second best or rely on only what the media and music industry think they can profit from
That's where a no-club (or even an "unimportant club" scene would invariably end up
Keep up the pressure
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:42 AM

Re Sam Larner quote
"serious singing was among your mates who liked the songs, usually at home or at sea"

So, that's what happened before folk clubs existed. At sea, on the berry fields, in the factories, mines etc and in the community too. Also, people passing songs and tunes to their children who would share them with each other in street games etc.
There was also the more formal music hall tradition too and people getting together for "a song". By their own accounts, when the early collectors were doing their field work, many of the source singers also had many "modern" songs of the time in their repertoire too. They didn't think of their old songs as "folk" or "traditional" but just songs.

Of course, much of the above was almost lost in the modern world and folk clubs and the work done by many performers, activists, academics and so on in preserving same and keeping the music alive was very important. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

However, as Dave says, there are other ways. Many are fairly similar to or adapted from the folk club model, of course, but some will be quite different. Not all changes will be for the good, I'm sure, but that's always been the case.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:14 AM

it is more important to have suitable places to sing the music

Well, Dick. As you have made part of your living from performing at these places I can understand why you believe that. But let me ask you a question. If it wasn't for Folk music, what would be the point of folk clubs?

And Jim, I have already gone to great lengths to point out that I have on no occasion said that Folk clubs are not important. Just that Folk music is more so. If you wish to dismiss that as closed minded there is nothing I can add.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:03 AM

it is more important to have suitable places to sing the music , if you sing the music in places where no one is interested, you are demeaning the music you are also not able to perform it as well,good performance is a two way thing it requires interaction.
I have got to the point now where i would rather sing for my own pleasure at home ,or as i did yesterday sitting on a deserted beach at dunmanus bay in the sunshine , than sing at an open mic or to be booked at a totally unsuitable venue, that is why i no longer take gigs on new years eve. there is your answer.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:03 AM

"But if it wasn't for Folk music, the folk club would not exist at all."
If it wasn't for the folk clubs the folk songs gathered by those astute to realise their value would be locked in cupboards for other people who realised their value to ask permission to us
Do you know how much information of this sort is is the same position - go and ask for a tour of the vaults of The British Library (or even the locked cupboards of Cecil Sharp House) sometime
This sort of complacency with return folk song to those vaults and cupboards
The media wil only continue to give it air space if there are enough people to make it worthwhile, as they have more than proved over and over again
We needf our own platform open to all - even the technically illiterate
THat is why folk cluns are not "unimportant"
Ignore away -Dave - I'm addressing this to the open-minded
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:30 AM

Dick is spot on
Songs at sessions tend to be the poor relation when the musicians want a break and a **** chat - musicians can be the worst listeners of songs
Try getting attention for a big ballad in a roomful of drinkers
Sam Larner summed it up pefectly - "sure, we sang in the Fisherman's Return every week but the serious singing was among your mates who liked the songs, usually at home or at sea"
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:26 AM

I used to go to a folk club in a book shop in Manchester in a similar style, Johnny J.

Dick,the venues are very important to the success of a club. Of course they are. But if it wasn't for Folk music, the folk club would not exist at all. So which is more important? As far as I can tell, there is no other way of interpreting "Folk music is more important than folk clubs". No matter how hard you try.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:16 AM

"Folk music is not just suitable to be played in any venue at any time, and that is why we have folk clubs.
you try singing half an hour of songs such as tifties annie in a working mens club"

It could still be a folk club although it is being held within a working men's club, of course. The club would just hire or use a suitable room on a night when it was free. Many folk clubs do, in fact, meet in clubs. Bowling clubs, for some reason, seem to be very popular for this sort of thing in Scotland.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:12 AM

Re venues,

While "upstairs" or in the back room of a pub is great although not always suitable for more high profile guests, there are other possibilities as has been mentioned.

I went to a folk club held in a cafe(Ardersier Folk Club) a few months back which was very homely. Nice decor and furniture and not a "greasy spoon" type of place. The cafe was actually closed in the evening and the folkies just took it over. We could bring in our own beer, wine etc and it was a great atmosphere.

Re village halls, some also have smaller rooms attached. For instance, we always have a great time at Newcastleton Village Hall during the festival in the Supper Room. However, smaller halls themselves can also be reorganised according to the event with tables instead of rows of seats etc.
There are any number of possibilities. Bringing in your own drink is often a better experience that consuming what many pubs have on offer although there are still some good establishments around selling good beer etc.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:04 AM

Folk music is not just suitable to be played in any venue at any time, and that is why we have folk clubs.
you try singing half an hour of songs such as tifties annie in a working mens club
there are of course some situations outside of folk clubs where some aspects of folk music can work , for example ITM instrumental sessions work well enough often in pubs where people are not going specifically for the music, but the problem with this is that the overall folk repertoire becomes limited. then you have the argument why should customers who are enjoying alcohol have music foisted on them,just because we like it it does not mean everybody does,
that is another
reason why having specific venues for the music is important .
MORRIS DANCING is another example, of folk music that can work however morris dancing and ITM , DO NOT REQUIRE PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO LISTEN TO LYRICS AND HEAR THEM PROPERLY.
That is why having correct and suitable venues is as important as playing the music, house parties and folk clubs are venues that fall in to that category,
public toilets and noisy pubs do not.
Dave, stop getting hung up on your notion of somebody trying to misrepresent you, but listen to the points being made, if you agree with what i am saying then just say so.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 03:51 AM

Folk song was grinding to a halt when Sharp and his crowd had thei arce with the undertaker (Tom Munnelly's description of Ireland) the songs were being remembered by elderly people, most of whom were reporting what ther parents and grandparents sang
When hsrp finished his work, the songs were confined to drawing rooms and didn't surface again till they were taken out of their cryogenics machines by the second revival in the late fifties - it took hard and dedicated work to do that
They have never been accepted by anybody other than us few eccentrics
Unless people are prepared to do the work they will retreat to their shelves and cupboards as they have before
It is suicidely complacent to think otherwise
Who on earth is going to take these old-old songs up if they are not won over
I suggest you count those singing real folk songs for the love of them, work out their average age and come beck and tell me there are enough

Sure - peole have always liked to make their own entertainment - go and look how much is on offer to choose from and see how far down the list folk song comes (if the list is long enough)

Far too many people misinterpreting you nowadays Dave - would it be rude to suggest.....?
Maybe it would
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 03:38 AM

Just that Folk music is more important than folk clubs. quote gnome
All the time you make statements that can be interpreted in different ways, and that have different meanings you are laying yourself open to being intrepreted in different ways.
folk music is more important than folk clubs, can be interpreted as meaning that the music is more important than the venue[ a folk club is a venue is it not?]
I am afraid that if you meant that, you are wrong , the venues are very important to the success of a club, acoustics ambience etc.
or if you mean venues in the sense of open mics or folkclubs you are wrong again as i have already illustrated in previous posts,
if you did not mean either of these things. i suggest you take more care with your wording in future
VENUES[ EG FOLK CLUBS OR OPEN MICS] AND OR BUILDINGS THAT VENUES ARE IN ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE FOLK CLUB ITSELF AND JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE MUSIC ITSELF.
my point is that having suitable venues or kinds of venues[ eg folk clubs rather than open mics] is part of showing respect for the music, if you want to play folk music in a public toilet go ahead and enjoy ,but dont expect me to turn up

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:54 AM

Folk music and song and dance will continue to have a following no matter where, while ever people sing, dance, play and entertain

Traditional music and song have their origins in other than folk clubs! and it is the genre and following that matters most ~ "folk" however it is defined is dependent upon its audience ~ whether they are paying customers or not

People(folk) like to create their own entertainment and will continue to so, hopefully in pubs and other acceptable venues ~ long may it be so and long live folk clubs, festivals, workshops, EFDSS and local initiatives

New songs and songwriters will always be composed and no they are not traditional ~ but who knows ultimately!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:40 AM

Once again, Dick, I have the patience to correct your misrepresentations no matter how many times you make them. I have never said that Folk clubs are not important. Just that Folk music is more important than folk clubs.

The beauty of discussions like this is that they remain online for anyone to look back on. Everyone can see what I said just as everyone can see how you have tried to change it. It doesn't work and does you no favours.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:33 AM

dave,, when you are in a hole stop digging otherwise you might end up in australia

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:30 AM

He says he was referring to just his own club but I saw no mention of that in the article - just a national assessment
I was invited to a club he now claims is "not important' why ?
Perhaps he was lusting after my body - a narrow escape eh? : quote. jim
   excellent post, no he is too busy playing with his fishing rod at the bottom of the garden
The points i have made illustrate the potential for excellence that folk clubs could achieve that open mics are not[by their wallpaper nature]not achieving. folk music songs deserve respect in the same way classical opera has respect that means when i attend being able to listen and hear the words., and not be drowned out by extraneous conversation, that is why folk clubs will survive ,
i hope when i turn up that i can hear story songs and that i can join in choruses and participate and that i can hear trad material. preferably without amplification, although there are occasions when the balance in a duo such as carthy kirkpatrick, that the guests performers insist upon it,for balance of instruments it is occasionally necessary but unfortunately the downside of amplification is that it [imo] creats a barrier the vast majority of folk clubs do not require amplification
another radical difference between them and open mics is the amplification question. performers should respect their music and audiences should respect performers and not treat music and performers like wallpaper music of course amplification is also provided on occasions to get more bums on seats another example of commercialism interfering with the music set up. if all this makes me effete so be it

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:15 AM

Sigh. Here we go again

Dave (whatever he says now) insisted that the clubs were in fine fettle, why else would he link me to a wiki article saying just that if that's not what he was saying ?

That is not why I linked the article. I told you that only a matter of days ago.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM
...
Yet again you are misrepresenting the facts Jim. You argued that clubs were failing because they no longer presented folk music. I put up the article because it said

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends.

I said I am not arguing but I have the patience to correct you every time you misrepresent me. That has not changed.

Nor have my views which I explained very clearly only yesterday. If you want to dispute anything I actually said, rather that what you imagined I said, feel free.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:30 PM

Dave
I'm sorry you've decided to opt for purdah rather that talk through your somewhat dogmatic claims (that's what they are if you won't discuss them - though that was me)
You are, of course to entitled to do just that, just as I am entitled to draw my own conclusions why you don't want to discuss your beliefs - I genuinely thought doing that was why people posted here - live and learn eh?
I also reserve the right to comment on what I believe you have said and what you say here
I was told by someone not so long ago not to refer directly to what he wrote - sorry - don't do that sort of thing on a public forum
Apart from anything else your views and what I believe to be contradictions reflect others opinions here

I have made quite clear why I believe folk clubs to be important; to extend what Kenny has just said far more succinctly than I could manage, they are not just a means of personal interaction, they are personal and social interaction themselves by their very existence
They are clear statements - "This is is what I believe", "this is how I feel", "this is who I am" - and the most effective way to get the message across has always been face to face (from the point of view of the teller and listener
They have always worked best in an intimate setting among those who share the same experiences, outrages and ambitions
As large as some club rooms have been, I have seldom come across a folk cub where that can't be achieved

I used to attend Festivals before they became conveyor belts for established performers - even the indifferent and good ones were breaks from the real thing for a short time

The internet I find spooky - disembodied faces and voices on a small plastic screen which you either like or hate but over which you have no control whatever (except to "click your fingers and wait for the next disembodies....); brrrrrr!!
I've watched more than a few 'locked-down refugees' and remain coldly unconvinced
They seem to fall into several categories: seasoned performers who you like or dislike, unknowns practicing or others who don't care for folk song but just wanna do their own thing      
Not for me, even if it didn't exclude people who are technically literate, or self conscious or camera shy or simply don't have or don't want or can't afford the necessary equipment any way - I knew few if any folk clubs that ever did that

We are gregarious creature whose art thrives on that fact - lats hang on to the wherewithal to do just that for as long as we can

I don't believe premises are as major a problem as some people believe them to be
Lookking at Nick's list I go alng with some but would shy away from impersonal venues like halls (even village halls)

I think home gatherings are fine if incestuous and unlikely to attract the desperately needed youngsters

Small public rooms fine - when The Dublin Goilín Cub was ousted from its pub rook it quickly found a perfect home in a teacher's club
Ther are not as many pub rooms as there were but there are still some where guvnors welcome musicians with open arms on a quiet night - that, I believe is bound to increase come the impending slump

For crying out loud, let's' keep this music as live as it was always intended to be

There seems to have been a big U-turn here
For years I have been shouted down and told I am out of touch when I said the clubs were failing
Now, It seems. I was right all along and people didn't really like clubs anyway
Dave (whatever he says now) insisted that the clubs were in fine fettle, why else would he link me to a wiki article saying just that if that's not what he was saying ?
He says he was referring to just his own club but I saw no mention of that in the article - just a national assessment
I was invited to a club he now claims is "not important' why ?
Perhaps he was lusting after my body - a narrow escape eh? :-)

Looking at what's available to youngsters on today's internet and comparing it with the 'self conscious elite amateurism' of the folk input, I con't believe there be a snowball's chance in hell of attracting new people to our music other than for the reasons that Londoners used to visit 'Bedlam' to look at 'the loonies' on Sunday afternoon
Sorry folks, I think a bit of realism is called for here
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:16 PM

Huge drawback to the online tack is that YOU personally have to search, whereas I always found the great delight of folk clubs, sessions whether they be in pubs or on the fringes of festivals you could sit down and hear things that you yourself would never have otherwise found.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

In fact anywhere that an audience can listen and participate.quote nic dow.
that exactly what a folk club is, whether the room is upstairs or downstairs in a pub or in a social club or in a britsh legion club or a cricket club it is not important, they are still folk clubs where hopefully some tradtional music can be heard
or as in the case of norwich folk club in a perfect acoustic room but without a bar, but it is still norwich folk club. hopefully open mics will disappear

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:17 PM

Re the "You can always switch it off (Or fast forward)" argument in support of Online concerts and the like....

Yes, you can whereas you can't do that in a club or concert.
However, many choose to go to the toilet or bar when a duff singer is performing or even if they know that there's a particular song coming up that they may not like. I've even done that myself, discreetly of course! :-)

Notwithstanding the above, it can be rewarding to persevere.
An artist may grow on you after a few songs and you might just be lucky enough to witness some classic moments and/or material. If you keep flicking through various You Tube clips and so on, you'll likely miss a lot and th focus is likely to be, for most people, on their favourite singers and musicians or those which have been recommended.

It's already the case that many younger people never listen to an album all the way through anymore and just pick and choose their favourite songs. That used to be one of the joys of playing vinyl and to a lesser extent actual CDs but all that has been lost.
I'd hate things to go the same way with live performances and concerts.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:02 PM

That last line is perfect, Nick.

Good to hear from you.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:20 PM

Will Folk Clubs survive-Almost Certainly
Will they stay in the same venues- Almost certainly not although that's not hard and fast.
My prediction is the emergence of house parties, the use of private halls or rooms, arts centres, and existing social clubs, or hotels with a spare room and a bar. In fact anywhere that an audience can listen and participate. I think the days of the upstairs room in a pub are numbered.
Just a matter of venue that's all. Folk songs are tough cookies, and they will surface again stronger than before, believe me.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:17 PM

It isn't, Kenny. You are quite right. Hence my putting There are alternatives to Folk clubs both live and online Folk clubs are good but my point is that they are not the be all and end all.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:13 PM

A folk club - for good or ill - is personal interaction with living, breathing people. "Online" is watching a TV or computer screen.
Not the same thing, and the latter will never be an adequate substitue for the former.
Just my point of view.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:07 PM

False logic, Dick. Nowhere do I say folk clubs are not important. I just believe that folk music is more important. If it was not for Folk music, folk clubs would not exist. If folk clubs did not exist, folk music would carry on as it did before 1950. So which is more important?