Will folk clubs survive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

Needs writing in stone SPB-C
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

In the Shanty Crew we cut our teeth performing in the open air, whatever the weather, and apart from maritime festivals, we did far more gigs in the community than in folk clubs. So there are no limits to venues where folk can be performed and appreciated.

But..... my introduction to folk was through folk clubs, and was inspired by people who were booked and good floor performers. Outside shanties and music hall I honed my craft at singerounds, and as a whistle player, sessions.

I have been to clubs, particular singaround clubs, that are so insular this inevitably led to their decline. But as someone who used to enjoy singing and playing, I still enjoyed going there.

I am at the age now that I have no interest in carving a career in folk/music hall, and I don't really have time to do anything with my folders, box files, and bookshelves and filing cabinet drawers full of folk and music hall material (sometimes I wonder if, when I finally pop my clogs, it will all end up in a recycling bin). I definitely have no aspiration to ever organise anything again.

Anyway, on a personal level, folk clubs inspired me to be involved in folk song/music and music hall, whereas folk music in the community would have been more of a passing "That's nice/interesting, and move on".

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 08:23 AM

"They had very little to offer a rising star"

Live music venues of any kind will help artists to gain experience and develop their skills and stage craft in front of actual audiences.

Of course, you might wish to argue that's no longer important. However, those who wish to perform online on a more permanent basis will need to do so in a professional way. People will soon tire of amateurish videos broadcast from musicians' bedrooms.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

Incidentally
Folk clubs wen't "invented" for anything specific - they evolved spontaneously - nobody is sure where
They seemed to be the natural progression of something that was already beginning to happen
MacColl's crowd wtth the than exiled Alan Lomax started a couple of concerts at The Theatre Royal in East London - Ewan always claimed that was the first but that has always been disputed
The main objective was to air the music rather than display platforms for people who had already carved their names elsewhere
Different aprts of the country reacted differently
The Folk Boom introduced a scramble for the top
Mike Brocken's extremely flawed history covered that period reasonably accurately

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 06:53 AM

"The only ducking and diving I see is the old man in exile.
Thanks for trying to reduce this to a personal and abusive level
I trust others have more sense - let's see
Ageism and a display of 'Little Brit' at your age - tsk, tsk
You really should know better
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 06:02 AM

there are stars here now and developing all the time ~ what goes round comes round

Not quite in the same way. Becoming a star on social media is a very different process than the old process mediated by agents, promoters and folk club committees - the sort of help a rising YouTube star might need is a search engine optimizer. And for a few months at least, social media will have a monopoly on reputation building.

Folk clubs were invented 60-odd years ago to increase the public visibility of folk music and its performers. Social media make that function totally irrelevant. They had very little to offer a rising star before the pandemic and absolutely nothing from now on.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 05:48 AM

The only ducking and diving I see is the old man in exile.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

The have a poison garden at Alnwick castle. Perhaps they decided that 2 attractions dedicated to unusual ways of harming people was too much :-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 05:27 AM

Thanks - that's a bit of a relief
Ther use to be one at Alnwick Castle
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 05:14 AM

Jim
    No trace of a pipe museum in Alnwick Nortumberland,but there is a
bagpipe collection in Morpeth (Morpeth Chantry Bagpipe Museum)not a million miles away.
See Here
                  
https://museumsnorthumberland.org.uk/our-collections/musical-intruments/

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 04:14 AM

Folk clubs started as an antidote to entertainment that they had no control over and had a wish to flex their own musles and make their own - at first it was letting off steam; later, and in growing numbers it developed into something more lasting
People began to deepen their interest in enough numbrs that some higher education instititutes took it up - Leeds, Shaffield, Aaberdeen....
It came into its own while at the same time, remained an entertainment for the majority
That is what is happening now in Ireland - in Galway, In Limerick and (I think) in Cork - there are now 'folk areas developing in places like West Clare, Cork and Galway, with a history in the Traditional Arts
Ireland now has a centre of excellence and a permanent resource for information in the Irish Traditional Music - a foundation to fall back on and a permanent reminder of what traditional music is
When a couple of enthusiastic non professionals in Wexford decided to draw attention to Child Ballads they approached The National Library of Ireland, which gave it its full support
Up to the Time The Celtic Tiger had its teeth drawn by the banks, applying for a grant from the Arts Council of Ireland was punching on an open door - I know that from personal experience
If a charlatan hadn't jumped the gun years ago, Traditional music would have a representative in politics
By taking itself seriusly, Irish traditional music has guaranteed itself a several generation future (at least)

What seems to have happened in the UK is that those who were in at the beginning have aged and have been disillusioned by a hostile takeover of the clubs have departed and have yet to be replaced   
Unless a new crowd on all levels (not as wannabe stars) England's Voice of the People will disappear into cupboards, display cases and bookshelves and we would have allowed it to happen (I understand the pipe museum in Alnwich isn't there any more - is that right ?)
This ducking and diving really is getting nowhere
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 03:07 AM

I think perhaps we should firstly consider the circumstances historically as to why the folk clubs of the 1960/70 actually "took off" and to the extent they did ~ weekly folk clubs and in some cases a number on the same night in the same catchment area

People were still coming out of the 1945 War and finding time to enjoy themselves, they were questioning how their world was and what restrictions in society were there ~ free speech and money to buy even on Hire purchase

So will Covid 19 leave UK society in a different place than before?

Well who knows and this thread is about that!

As Steve Gardham says other venues are currently (before Covid19) looking at the use of other venues as an alternative to pubs and as well as!!

Folk clubs can only survive where there is a consensus as what the aims are and that all ppl are happy with that ~or the dissentients will no doubt either suck it or beggar off elsewhere

I do feel a number of initiatives are in place ~ some EFDSS based but local initiatives could and should be sought out ~ Soundpost at Dungworth is one such project and serves to employ and bring ppl together

New "stars" and gods are there, maybe not as clever as Ewan MacColl and of course we have lost a number of the Revivalist singers like Peter Bellamy and singer songwriters like Keith Marsden,

but there are stars here now and developing all the time ~ what goes round comes round and it is no good simply saying we are ignoring the traditional songs and these are the only songs that should be sung ~

it never ever was during the 1960/70s and entertainment and beer were also part and parcel of what folk clubs were ~ as well as the entertainers ~ Billy Connolly, Mike Harding, Jasper Carrot as well as Tony Rose, Dave Burland who sung and kept alive the traditional songs

Yes many new folk singers do look to the tradition for material to sing and arrange musical accompaniments and long may it be so

Traditional song and music will continue to be sung for as long as people see the historical and/ or artistic value in them and can relate to the feelings expressed and context within them, many of those relating to humanity itself

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 05:09 PM

...and I could add to Steve's list: farmer's market, microbrewery, Muslim and Jewish community events, charity marathon, student socials, house parties, local history meetings...

Dunno how people interested in folk music find the time to go to folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:26 PM

Oops, missed out art galleries.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM

Quite, Jack, which is one good reason why we diversify, pubs, village halls, museums, churches, shopping centres, schools, community gardens, outdoor stages, marquees when we can afford them, boats such as keels, sloops, schooners, fishing vessels, trains, car parks, restaurants etc., etc.. . .

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

Maybe the folk clubs could use Village Halls, as lots of the old venues will undoubtedly have succumbed to the loss of revenue, owing to Covid-19.

If your village still has one. The Tories have done their best to destroy spaces open to the whole community. The folk scene can't depend on any one kind of venue exclusively.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 02:22 PM

"refresh the memory "
A quick try again - Simon Reeve - the bast travel broadcaster ever beckons
The reason most I knew walked away was turning up at Clubs nd not hearing a folk song all night
That ct down my number of visits- first by experience, then later, playing safe and not preparing to take a chance any more
G'night all - be careful out there
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 01:53 PM

Maybe the folk clubs could use Village Halls, as lots of the old venues will undoubtedly have succumbed to the loss of revenue, owing to Covid-19.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

"Might be a good idea to refresh the memory of those who may have read the Folk Review articles referred to above and/or tell the younger ones what reasons for the decline were cited, please Jim"
I have done over and over again - here and elsewhere - seems little point to do so again if nobody read it the first - second - third.... time around
Some clubs weer cliquey by not by any means the majority of them Steve can speak fro his own
I veisted about for clubs a week at one stage - a mixture of pleasure and research
The singers was largely a 'concert club' - most I knew weer
The 'anyody who turnd up' ones were very much latecomers on the scene
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM

"their decline was documented well enough to be correct in magazines like Folk Review yet nobody seems to want to go near the reasons given"

- "I wonder why
Your club may ahve been cliquey - none of those I attended where"


Might be a good idea to refresh the memory of those who may have read the Folk Review articles referred to above and/or tell the younger ones what reasons for the decline were cited, please Jim

I have to agree with Steve ~ clubs are and have always been cliquey ~ this is one of the main reasons in my view why they fail ~ booking policy and egos are other reasons ~Folk clubs.

Concert clubs and mixed sessions (song and music) are different animals in my view and owe success/ failure to different factors entirely ~ but not always!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 11:13 AM

"I think one of the main reasons for the decline in folk club numbers is their cliquiness. "
These are feeble excuses - their decline was documented well enough to be correct in magazines like Folk Review yet nobody seems to want to go near the reasons given - I wonder why
Your club may ahve been cliquey - none of those I attended where

THre are now more excuses to explain away the loss of folk clubs that there are to paper over the flaws in the theory that crap hacks wrote our folk songs - I really didn't see that bus c.... argh...!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 11:08 AM

I don’t think the Clubs ever intended to become cliquey, but it happens by default sometimes, because the main participants get older and greyer, and through longer involvement they naturally become more proficient as performers. Welcoming as they might be to younger performers, newcomers and those just startIng out tend to then feel intimidated by the more experienced and adept performers already there.
If I was twenty again and walked into a club or indeed a session, where everyone seemed to be quite accomplished and clearly older than my grandparents are, I’d probably think twice before going there again. It’s easy to see why open mic sessions are popular with younger performers, but it would be sad if we lost the Clubs and only saw the rather impersonal and unsupportive open mics survive.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 10:51 AM

I think one of the main reasons for the decline in folk club numbers is their cliquiness. Before I elaborate on this I must state that this is not necessarily a criticism, it is also part of what holds the club together. And it also certainly does not apply to every club. It was also ever thus right from the beginning, but the clique in the 60s were young enough and active enough to sustain the club and keep things evolving. Our main problem, like so many other interests that have become top-heavy with the aged, is that we didn't see the writing on the wall and didn't make enough provision for introducing new blood. Those clubs I have been in have the same old faces taking up any spots for performance and booking the same old faces as well. (There are exceptions and this is speaking very generally, not aimed at any one club). Some sessions can also be quite cliquey particularly Irish based ones, whereas singarounds more often than not welcome allcomers and everybody gets an equal chance to perform (well they do in my area).

However I must repeat, the decline in 'folk clubs' has more than been compensated for in the increase in other outlets for our music.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 09:15 AM

Whether clubs will survive or not will be answered soon enough I suppose. It will depend on the will of the attendees, organizers and singers. If the cooperation needed is exemplified by the posts on this thread, dire times are ahead. I doubt people who didn't support them in good times will be showing up to support them in bad. Good luck to all of you regardless the outcome.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 08:40 AM

A good summary there from @JohnnyJ.

The guest plus floorspot format seems to be on the decline with a tend to move either to a full concert format or a more informal singaround. Having said that there are still plenty of clubs running the classic format successfully but the smaller clubs that I know have gradually been cutting back on booked guests.

Post CV19 we really don't know. Every club and concert series will need to relaunch as if it is totally new and there may be issues in scheduling reopening events timed to relaxation of restrictions if notice is short.

Apart from the risk that many venues will not reopen at all I suspect that the trend towards a split between regular singarounds and ad hoc concerts will increase.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 08:31 AM

"perhaps you could elaborate on that serious accusation for us, Jim,"
Of course I refuse to name names - they should be self evident to those concerned
Those who have helped create the fog around the term "folk", removing the right of those wishing to hear folk songs when they turn up at clubs are the leading culprits as far as I'm concerned - that includes both club and event organisers and some researchers/academics
'Folk' has become a little like 'antisemitism' - once it meant something definite, now it has been manipulated into meaning something else to the detriment of its/their real meaning
The success that has taken place in Ireland has been achieved by returning to the music's roots and persuading young people of its worth - I can be reminded of that fact most nights of the week by switching on television or the radio

Most of Johnny's list are bums on seats events - festivals are too one-off to be of lasting value unless you can afford the time and fare and accommodation money to visit enough of them - if there enough within reach
As far as I can see, the difference in singarounds and clubs is in removing booked guests, featuring your best singers and creating the possibility of having a permanent opportunity to assist and bring forward inexperienced singers
'Shooting the scene in the foot' springs to mind

"yes of course!"
Not if the voices screaming "folk clubs have had their day" have their way they won't
Curiouser and curiouser
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 07:59 AM

Oops, sorry. Jack was quoting what Steve had said. Anyway, my points still stand.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 07:55 AM

"Not very rational - it's hard to think where else"

Jack has already given a few examples

"concerts in museums, churches, village halls, etc.; singarounds, sessions, grass-roots festivals like ours, taking the music into other areas like schools."

but there are more.

There will always be a place for people gathering together to sing and play although the traditional folk club format of a "booked guest" along with resident floor spots may or not persist.
However, the more informal arrangements will and also small concerts in village halls, arts centres and so on will continue. Of course, these won't soley focus on folk concerts but they will likely always be part of the local programme.

I should also say that the term "folk club" these days covers a multitude of sins. It can be anything from a a slightly more organised session or singaround to an actual concert. In many cases, regulars and members don't get a chance to participate and the support spots are "hand picked" or are visiting acts who wish to gain some extra exposure and volunteer to play.
Also, the music and song may or may not be traditional or even "folky" at all. I'm not saying if this is good or bad but just how things are.

Of course, there are all sorts or arrangements in between but not all folk clubs match the "ideal" which Jim and some others advocate.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 07:45 AM

'As far as I can see, many who should know better have become a part of the problem rather than a solution' Jim

perhaps you could elaborate on that serious accusation for us, Jim, perhaps name a few names...

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 07:42 AM

'As far as I can see,' Not very far, from the west of Ireland!

As an organiser in Yorkshire I know for a fact that similar things are/were going on in many other parts of the country, just a few examples of where things continue to flourish--York, Sheffield, Ripponden area, Teesside, Newcastle, Sussex, North Lincs. Please feel free to add to this list.

London obviously is a very different case. They have one massive advantage and one massive disadvantage--advantage, a large population In a relatively small area to draw upon--disadvantage, a multiplicity of competing entertainment.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 07:27 AM

To get back to the thread title.....the answer is.....yes of course!

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 07:09 AM

"but folk clubs are irrelevant to the improvement and probably won't be the venue where it emerges"
Not very rational - it's hard to think were else
I know that I will screaming for the company of the singing circles when this lot is over as will many of my friends
The clubs guaranteed that th music was kept grass roots and not an elitist stairway to the stars - lose them and you lose that
I also know that people are busy learning or working on songs - our on-line archive has never been so active and our list of volunteers to sing Irish Child ballads is getting impressive
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 07:09 AM

"but folk clubs are irrelevant to the improvement and probably won't be the venue where it emerges"
Not very rational - it's hard to think were else
I know that I will screaming for the company of the singing circles when this lot is over as will many of my friends
The clubs guaranteed that th music was kept grass roots and not an elitist stairway to the stars - lose them and you lose that
I also know that people are busy learning or working on songs - our on-line archive has never been so active and our list of volunteers to sing Irish Child ballads is getting impressive
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 06:29 AM

You seem to be suggesting that all of us who have spent our lives being obsessed by folk music will somehow drift off in other directions once this is over. A very negative and doom laden attitude! There are enough of us obsessives in every part of the UK to ensure that this will continue in whatever form; concerts in museums, churches, village halls, etc.; singarounds, sessions, grass-roots festivals like ours, taking the music into other areas like schools.

It's obvious from what you see on the web that huge numbers of people are furiously woodshedding away at the moment and will emerge from this with new material better performed. They'll find some way to show it all off - but folk clubs are irrelevant to the improvement and probably won't be the venue where it emerges. Some traditional performers experienced a step change in power after they retired and could spend more time at home practicing - Billy Pigg is an example. We may see many more like that.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 05:52 AM

"will somehow drift off in other directions once this is over"
Where did I do that Steve ?
I've been pointing out the poor state of things since long before all this was still being written about by Science Fiction writers
I've been 'arguing with those who dedicated their lives to it like you' that things have gone radically wrong to the point of no return and being told to mid my own business - I don't now what I am talking about
As far as I can see, many who should know better have become a part of the problem rather than a solution
Some things have continued, but nowhere near enough and the confusion that has been deliberately created around the term 'folk' is likely to kick many o them into touch before too long
One you remove the foundation - the building collapses
Groups are fine as a diversion but our fol songs are solo animals that require solitude to make them work - whoever wrote them they are single thoughts put into verse
In the main, I find most groups sound rather than narration - try imagining The Illiad or Tess read by four-five-six voices
Your a little behind with your digitied live performances - I've been distributing them for years and have had little luck (if some) trying to do just that on this forum
I sent a load of the Singers Club to Callum MacColl, who intends to use selections for a four- CD set of Ewan's live performances

Whatever we (you, I and your friends) do - unless others regain what appears a lost confidence in and understanding of folk song, it isn't goig to be near enough and complacency ain't gonna help
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 05:23 AM

You seem to be suggesting that all of us who have spent our lives being obsessed by folk music will somehow drift off in other directions once this is over. A very negative and doom laden attitude! There are enough of us obsessives in every part of the UK to ensure that this will continue in whatever form; concerts in museums, churches, village halls, etc.; singarounds, sessions, grass-roots festivals like ours, taking the music into other areas like schools.

Just before the lockdown struck we managed to fit in a free 4-hour concert in the local Minster that had footfall of near 800, and just before that we had a packed-out chanty night. Had the lockdown not struck our 6-piece group were booked to go into a secondary school to start up a once a week folk club. This has merely been postponed. Whilst in lock-down we are continuing to work on our 4th album. 2 of us are also working on digitised recordings of 60s folk club recordings to go into the local Folk Archive followed by setting up a website to publicise this, all funded by ourselves. I am just finishing off another book whilst working on two book chapters to be published next year.

What more do you want?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:22 AM

Wasn't a potted history Malcolm of your history - just a recollection of having met you briefly - I really don't know why people paint an impression of me that is inaccurate - I try to be fair and open with others
Ah well - never mind eh ?

Of course the music will survives in somebody's cupboard somewhere if that's what people want - maybe someone will find it like The Dead Sea Scrolls if the world survives its present misuse
I'd much rather it was giving others the same pleasure it gave us while I'm still around to be part of it and I'd rather that happened face to face than as disembodied sounds or back to the "me performer - you bum on chair" music industry ethos we all ran to escape from
It happened with a little effort for a large part of my life and I'm now lucky enough watching Irish youngsters in their thousands making the same discovery and use of their heritage just as well and in many cases, far better than we ever did
Clare County Library put our Clare song collection on line a few years ago and now we're hearing those songs sung back at us wherever we go - better thn winning The Lotto anyday
I can't for the life of me see why that can't happen again in England - I really can't

At least these discussions seem to have moved on from "our folk club scene is fine and you are out of touch" to "We don't need folk clubs anymore" - progress of sorts I suppose, but I'm not sure in which direction

I argued with MacColl during an interview we did with him when he predicted that there was a possibility that folk would die "if it fell into the hands of those who didn't like or appreciate or understand it" - I wish he was still around so I can apologise
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 08:35 PM

There is some interesting discussion about the state of the folk club scene over the last decade or so, but personally I am still not sure if folk clubs as we know, and sometime love, them will whether the storm. Nearly every folk club I went to in London has closed either mainly due to the fickleness of pub venues.

What we don't know is how many existing venues will still be in business when the lockdown finally ends, how many of us will be around or will have the will to organise or even attend clubs. There will always be performers, but if we lose the intimacy of small/medium size clubs in favour of concert venues, folk as an inclusive entertainment will get harder to find.

I have no worries for the future of folk song and music. For as long as we have collections preserved, that reference point will always be there. I believe their will continue to be new waves of technically brilliant professional, but without the continuity of clubs, that understanding of 'community in performance' could be lost.

I know that I am doing nowhere near enough to support folk clubs, with so many other distractions in my everyday life.

Anyway - gone off on a tangent - I read suggestions that 'clubs' could continue but go underground, a bit like Czech Theatre did under commmunism, for example Havel producing living room performances. Maybe this is something that folk needs to do, but I can't see it re-emerging later as this isn't the same as countering cultural suppression. With pop-up micro pubs - there are a few near me but they are very small. One I go to is smaller than my living room!

I guess we need to wait and see what happens.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:42 PM

Jim - I printed out your last post that mentioned me with the intention of giving you and the world a potted history of my background and my involvement in folk music.

I have just ploughed through 50 or so posts mostly involving yourself and have decided not to bother.

I will carry on organising events that people enjoy and which are primarily concerned with traditional dance, music and song.

I also hope, once the current problems are over to continue attending events to support others with similar aims.

All the best

Malcolm and, yes, we have met.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM

Ok,Jim. Whatever. You have reminded me why having this discussion with you is pointless. I'll resume when you misrepresent me again.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

Sorry Dave - you are wriggling like a landed eel
We are wasting space
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 02:07 PM

I claimed the clubs I go to were in "fine fettle" and did invite you to see. I have no idea about clubs elsewhere other than what people say on here. The people that attend other clubs tell me that they are also in fine fettle. You tell me they are not. I made my choice as to what to believe when these arguments first started so, yes, there is little point continuing. But I will still correct you whenever you misrepresent me. The saintly patience is still intact :-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 01:18 PM

Sorry Dave did you not claim the clubs where in fine fettle and invite me over to prove it ?
must have gone to bed on a bad pint to have imagined that
Let's leave it at that - I hav e no desire to either retrace old ground nor fall out with you
The figure show what a shitty level the scene has fallen to
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 01:04 PM

That was not the argument at the time Dave

It was the argument I was making. If someone else was making another one take it up with them. Just stop assigning things I have not said to me and I will be happy.

Now, how about looking forward instead of back?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 12:44 PM

That was not the argument at the time Dave - you were claiming the clubs hadn't declined
Around that tim you actually invited to stay with me and visit your clubs
I ahve pointed out consistently what I believe the reason to be for their decline and have quoted the 'Crap begets Crap' correspondence
Thow "musical tastes" of those who walked away - myself included was exactly the opposite - because our musical tastes hadn't changed but the clubs no longer catered for why we'd siigned up in the first place - along with declining standards, noisy clubs and poor administration
Prior to this plummet, the scene had neverreally been so healthy, plenty of our own magazines (we were thinking of starting another), a few record labels, folk shops...
Not me who's misinter
preting - deliberate or otherwise
You have never put up a shred of evidence to back up your..... guess maybe?
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 12:26 PM

List=post

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 12:10 PM

Why did you put it up Dave ?

I refer you to my list of 07:35 AM today.

You may well be mistaking what I said but when I told you precisely why I put it up less than 4 hours ago I begin to wonder...

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 11:36 AM

Why did you put it up Dave ?
In the end, it doesn't matter anyway - that many clubs makes my case perfectly
I may be mistaking what you say Dave BUT I NEVER DELIBERATELY MISINTERPRET ANYTHING ANYBODY SAYS - IT'S NOT WHO I AM
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 11:30 AM

I put it up because it wa given as proof that the cene was healthy


I'm not sure there is any different way of putting this

NOT BY ME IT WASN'T! STOP MISREPRESENTING WHAT I SAID

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 10:24 AM

AnBu
If you PM me an email address I'll link you to my PCloud
There's a permanent selection of stuff which I leave in until I think there will be no more takers - probably indefinitely
Help yourself
Anything specific, I'll have a look and let you know and if you give me some idea of yor tastes I'll make suggestions
I've recently put i a pile of US material (non-available albums mainly) by request - there are a lot of them and there will probably be more when the two American friends get their act together
Help yourself to that, but that will not be permanent - too big
E-mail address and I'll let you have mine so the children can't listen in :-)
Jim