Will folk clubs survive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 09:09 AM

Will be in touch An
There's more than your heart could possibly desire
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM

Might I ask what "purchased a limp of PCloud" was intended to mean? Any source of words, airs, or even songs, is always welcome. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 08:22 AM

Would love to hve ben there Henry - wouldn't have minded listening to the banjo or drinking pissy Scots beer :-)
Loved Arran though
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 08:15 AM

Billy Connolly visited the Arran Folk Festival, and the organisers asked him if he would draw the raffle.

Billy was happy to oblige. The raffle took over an hour, and many people said it was the best act that they had seen.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 08:11 AM

The number of guest booking clubs has declined much more in the 21century compared to how many there were in the 80s,
i agree with a fair bit that jim says, we have now many competent guests but 50 percent of them in my opinion play nothing that resembles folk music as i knew it, and i first went in to a folkblues club in 1966, if they were playing blues which is the roots of american folk music,i wouldnt mind, but no what i sometimes hear is competent soulless drivel about their love life its worse thatn dylans ballad in plain d,
Iwas booked at chippenham folk festival in 2019, the best performers in my opinion were nic dow,jack rutter, the wilsons, john bowden and vic shepherd, what a proprtion of some of the others were doing at a folk festival i have no feckin idea.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:52 AM

Can I just add to allt this that some time ago (thanks to a suggestion here) I purchased a limp of PCloud in order to distribute our archive in the hope people would make use of it - sing some of it maybe
I'm more than a little cffed at the sccess to date - from Ireland, from the US - from Australia
Not nearly enough from the UK
It's a permanent feature for whoever wants to use it and I'm open to requests to add stuff if we have it
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:47 AM

Sorry Dave - let's leave it
I've put upi the evidence (and where to find more) of why the clubs declined
If you're not prepered even to discuss that it's pissing in the wind to expect you would consider more
I didn't quote what you said b=ecause I belived it - that number knocked my sideways in fact
I put it up because it wa given as proof that the cene was healthy
If you don't accept that I suggest you revisit it as I have
I'm too old for Balck Holes
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM

You put it up as an argument of how well folk clubs were doing Dave
If you didn'y belive it you wouldn't have put it up
There's no point in arguing- it's a done deal

Yet again you are misrepresenting the facts Jim. You argued that clubs were failing because they no longer presented folk music. I put up the article because it said

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends.

The numbers are mentioned elsewhere but only you fixated on them. The numbers are disputed anyway and my link to the article had sweet Fanny Adams to do with them.

I agree that there is no point in arguing but as long as you keep getting it wrong I shall keep correcting you. I have the patience of a saint:-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:23 AM

"budding singers can hone their skills and gain confidence"
Why should folk club audiences be invited to sit and watch singers practice in public when it's not necessary ?
Would you expect that from any other music scene - idf not, what is there about folksong that makes it acceptable ?
I've been involved is singing workshops all the time I've been involved in folk song and I've benefitted in numerous ways
I get a buzz out of watching singers improve and become butterflies
I have seen club nights improve with the addition of new singers who have been at the workshops
And, from a purely selfish point of view, I have never been in a weokeshop and not learned something about my own singing from working with others
That's how the Critics Group was set up - mutual help that we were all benefiting from simply by being forced to think about the problems in order to solve them - a win-win situation all around - for the newbie, for those helping him/her and for the audiences at your club
MacColl was constantly saying that he learned more from working with the Critics Group than he ever did anywhere else - he said that tight up to his death - even after the Acting Group broke up as acrimoniously as it did
This is why I hammer on as much as I do to at least look at and discuss the work we did before you bin it
Please don't worry about offending me Johnny - I have far too short a fuse and I'll let you now when you have

The clubs are where you go, not just to listen to music, but to associate with people who share your interests and possibly work together
I came away with a wife - hope her husband never comes looking for her:-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:01 AM

I'm a little wary about commenting here, Jim, as I don't wish to offend.

However, you say

"I believe most people can sing - if they put in the work they can improve their singing - if they reall work at it they can become bloody good singers "

This is true but there are other possibilities outwith the folk club scene whereby budding singers can hone their skills and gain confidence. e.g. community groups, courses, and workshops. Many of these also organise concerts, sessions, small get togethers which aren't too dissimilar to what many folk clubs do.

Several years ago, the Scots Music Group started up in Edinburgh and many people became interested in traditional music via this route and gained enough confidence to sing and play. They wouldn't have considered doing this via the folk club route which was considered to be very "cliquey" by many unless your were a part of it. Even many club regulars would be reluctant to have a go in case they upset the long term club performers or their input wasn't welcome. Also, if you are naturally shy, doing a floor spot for the first time can be a very daunting step.

There are many similar organisations to SMG up and down the country and plenty of other opportunities to get involved in folk music and song. Of course, they all imperfect and have their flaws just as folk clubs do. However, I think there's a place for everything.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 06:59 AM

Why don't we forget the clubs and start putting an emphasis on "street music".....The Irish have made it work and trad Jazz in New Orleans is gaining in popularity through groups like Tuba Skinny and others taking the music directly to the people and incorporating dance in the mix.
It brings life back to the music. The historical aspect will always be there for those with the will to look for it.
Dance was always a large part of traditional music, in Scotland, Ireland , England and Wales. I has been written out of history.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 06:31 AM

"No I wasnt, Jim. I simply linked a Wiki article."
You put it up as an argument of how well folk clubs were doing Dave
If you didn'y belive it you wouldn't have put it up
There's no point in arguing- it's a done deal
Why confine it to clubs surviving the crisis when it appears that they have their own exusive crisis
It seems an ideal time to discuss their future as purveyors of folk clubs - as far as I can see, there's little point in working to retun them to what they were any more thnan there's little point in working to give Britain back to Boris and his Breeders if there is a chance of using the crisis as a new broom for the improvement of all, including the lesser well off
They learned that as far back as The Fire of London - a better life rising from the ashes

If always been aware of the decline in the club scene - coming to Mudcat persuaded me that I wasn't the only one when I read reports of unn accompanied singers being shown hostility at some clubs, or not finding what they were looking for at folk clubs any more, or having to sit through bad singing to hear an occasionally well sung song.... it's all been raised here at one time or anotherer, and it's anecdotal evidence like this you would have us dismiss out of hand
Te evidence comes in a reversed form too - as a defence for some of the above - do't discourage crib shets or don't put bad singers off from singing in public...
Tere are remedies for all these things but it should never be inflicting it on an audience

I believe most people can sing - if they put in the work they can improve their singing - if they reall work at it they can become bloody good singers
It lay within the abilities of most clubs I have been involved with to assist in this - and it happened
It is to all our advantages - and to the music itself that it happens again
If someone wants to sing something else I wouldn't wish to stop them - but they sould find somewhere other than folk club to sing it - we owe that to ourselves, those who turn up to listen to folk songs, and to the future of the music itself
I wouldxpct that someone who wished to sing pop songs at a fok club should be made welcome as I would be turning up to a local amature opera society and blasting out thirty verses of Young Hunting in open voiced traditional style
Why should folk be treated as a poor and embarrassing relation ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 06:15 AM

The Edinburgh Folk Club has been broadcasting some of their gigs for some time time and other clubs too. However, the videos don't quite convey the same atmosphere as you experience at the actual gig and, in many cases, can even make things look quite amateurish. The "raffle" is even more tedious than normal, for instance. :-))

Folk club raffle videos would be a really obscure niche for YouTube.   Though you could easily do them for real on Zoom. I wonder when the gambling regulators would step in?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:52 AM

You were the one who put a number on the present clubs

No I wasnt, Jim. I simply linked a Wiki artcle. It is not known who put that number on or how they arrived at it. I know I said I am not arguing with you but when you purposely misrepresent the facts I feel you should be corrected.

But rather than keep dredging up the past how about moving on to folk clubs surviving the crisis? As I said earlier, the folk club of the 50s and 60s is dead and buried anyway. Maybe if the idea of that Folk club doesn't survive this crisis, that may not be a bad thing. The music will survive and thrive as it did before the viral onset of folk clubs. Maybe it is time for something else and this virus will be a catalyst to make that happen. I don't know what clubs will survive and in what format but folk music will live on regardless.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:35 AM

"Only true and verifiable facts or the testimony of an expert witness will
do"
With respect Dave - that's unbelievably stupid
I have no evidence that our politicians are charlatans and thieves but it hasn't stopped us discussing these traits elsewhere
We have to rely on what we are told by people we trust - we can't be everywhere at the same time
I know for a fact that singers who were once household names won't go to clubs any more because of "the shitholes that many of the clubs have become" - to quote a recent communication
I keep finding singers who I thought must be dead are still alive and healthy - and well able to sing, but can't be arsed any more because of the indifferent and often hostile reception their songs have met with
You were the one who put a number on the present clubs

"Remote singing"
Singing folk songs has always been a form of human contact - electrionic contact is a form of alienation in my opinion - for the reasons I ahve given
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:31 AM

I agree that some of those performers who do exactly the same act every night will be "found out" much more quickly especially as there are now already many live streams available.

The Edinburgh Folk Club has been broadcasting some of their gigs for some time time and other clubs too. However, the videos don't quite convey the same atmosphere as you experience at the actual gig and, in many cases, can even make things look quite amateurish. The "raffle" is even more tedious than normal, for instance. :-))

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:17 AM

I did have the social interaction aspect in mind - acts that involve interaction with the audience are doing something that you can't get in the same way mediated by the Internet, and people will still want that experience (though getting together with a small group of friends also does it, no club or professionals involved). But there are more acts that do exactly the same thing in every show on their tour, playing off the same setlist with the same jokes in the same places. They don't have what it takes to get bookings after this is over.

But in the long run, live performance will have to interact with online world, not simply provide something separate and different. I can't imagine what forms that kind of interaction will take but I expect it's already developing.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:16 AM

Neither hearsay not anecdotal evidence would sway a critical judge. Only true and verifiable facts or the testimony of an expert witness will do. We have to ask ourselves who can provide those facts and expertise. I am not arguing for or against any claims but, given the evidence, I know where my money goes!

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

Jack:   "older generations who ignored music on the web in the past will now be driven to use it willy-nilly."

There will no doubt be some changes and more interest in the possibilities for doing things online but most people will still want to "meet up" when all this is over.

I'm quite "au fait" with technology and the various possibilities but I don't feel "driven" to use them all as a matter of course. I still like to think I have a choice and I'll use technology as I see fit.
Even at this moment, I don't intend to embrace everything which is on offer. I still like to be selective and there's plenty of ways to enjoy music and the online experience is only part of it.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:11 AM

Everyone has responded to the "Subject" title, but I don't think that anyone has actually answered the initial question, which was :
"Once the pandemic subsides and it is safe for people to gather again, how many venues have made a commitment to welcome the folk clubs back".
There's no doubt that some clubs will come back, but how many won't ? And will any new ones start up ?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 04:53 AM

No guarantee Steve and survival like the frigging virus - has t be worked for
You are talking about you - I'm in a position where I ahve to take an overview and believe me, I have friends from the Gorbals to Glastonbury who say different
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 04:33 AM

Jim, whilst there is a modicum of truth in what you say, please take it from one who is in the thick of it, the music will survive and thrive. Your position is very extreme and doom-laden. The situation does not warrant this.

BTW have you got the Irish versions of Lord Robert, Child 87? (Lord Abore).

For once I find myself siding with Dick. Jack, you are not taking into account the social interaction and the desire to sit amongst those you are singing with. I'm in a 6-piece group. We all love performing and all sing and play instruments. I can't see anything changing there. We are also bringing in younger members who like what we do and want to be part of it.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 03:39 AM

"We have given you numerous examples of this happening in Britain. You just dismiss them."
I don't dismiss anything out of hand
I have ad description from a few sating "it's all right in our area" - that doesn't tie up with the fact that the club scene has reduced from thousands of clubs to less than two hundred and that a fraction of those have rejected folk song and adopted the 'singing horse' definition   
My concern is for the songs Steve - yours should be as a researcher
Non folk folk clubs, crib sheets and indifferent singing has not only become a major problem but has been argued for using terms like 'elitism'
Whenever it is suggested that folk clubs should live up to their chosen description we are deafened by hysterical shrieks of "folk police"
Folk song will not survive that treatment - it is not surviving it
I have no intention of taking up Observers somewhat snide attack on the Irish and I hope nobody else does - I hate national jealousy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 02:18 AM

Drastic change is inevitable.
your opinion,based on the claim that technological improvement will be more important than accustomed social interaction, you might be right you might be wrong ,lets wait and see, but i think old habits will die harder than you think, your predicted change, if it happens, is likely in my opinion to be more gradual than you think
since you have a crystal ball can you tell me the winning numbers of the lotto

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 08:03 PM

Something that is likely to change in the near future: the way people structure their listening experience.

Web-based music making is likely to improve very fast. There is an incentive for the makers of software like Zoom to improve their product, and people are going to improve their use of it. Already the sound quality you can get at home from an Internet performance can be better than what a typical folk club sound tech can achieve.

So, the sonic experience isn't a USP for the live folk club.

More importantly, music on the web is a mass of files of every duration you could want, linked by every relationship the user might want to follow. Want to spend an evening listening to versions of Long Lankin, follow an Arabic oud piece with an animated score, trance out to a full-length concert video from 30 years ago, play singalongs for your kids at bedtime, put together your own assemblage of John Prine's career, switch from a Spanish Civil War song to a related Pathe newsreel, listen to something a friend just messaged you about - none of that is doable from your seat in a folk club. The stasis of a folk club goes deeper than simply spending all evening in the same consumer relationship to the same performers doing material of the same genre you got last month.

So what does a folk club have to offer to somebody with those enlarged expectations? In their present format, not a lot - to anyone, since older generations who ignored music on the web in the past will now be driven to use it willy-nilly.

Drastic change is inevitable.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:50 PM

"Suggesting that the English hadn't the time to write songs while the Irish undergoing Famine wars of national liberation, mass enforced exile, struggles for land... used those hardships to produce thousands of their most important songs appears to add to your somewhat jaundiced view of the English rural dweller"

The "English" have written a vast number of songs, many now falsely claimed by the Irish purely because Luke Kelly on his numerous sabbaticals brought them them back and introduced them into the Dubliners repertoire.

The Irish, their claim to fame as the MOPE [Most Oppressed People Ever] is a bit of a joke. Under the rule of the British the people of Ireland suffered no more from Famine {See Scotland 1700 -1707 & 1847 -1851} Struggles for land [The enclosures] The population were treated no differently than anywhere else in the Kingdom. There were a number of factors that mitigated certain events throughout the British Isles and they were largely down to the resilience and common sense of the people. Nowhere at all in any discussion of the Famine in Ireland do I ever hear that 40 years before it happened land owners and tenant farmers in Ireland were warned and told that they had to alter their ways and that all such advice was studiously ignored - always easiest to blame someone else.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:43 PM

Yes I saw that thanks

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:19 PM

joe grint please note
Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave Sutherland - PM
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:37 PM

"Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks"
Jim has complimented us on our booking policy and choice of guests in the past at Tigerfolk, Long Eaton (our last guests before the lockdown were Kevin and Ellen Mitchell with a surprise drop in by Francey Devine) and in February we celebrated our 29th Birthday.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:15 PM

Sorry that last Guest was me. Looks like my login had logged out!

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:09 PM

Whilst accepting this OP is about folk clubs, there have been criticisms of people using folders and phones etc. I'm not keen on this myself, but not one session or folk club or similar I have attended in the past 30 years has had a majority of performers using this method. In fact in any event where it has happened they have been very much in the minority. At some point one would hope they would look around and see that the majority are having more success and applause by singing songs they have learnt. I have also noticed singers progressing from using the crutch to throwing the crutch away.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:59 PM

Jim - 'Given the right circumstances - well sung songs fitting the description you give your club - there is no earthly reason that should be the case - that is the limit of what I suggest - no purism - no banning of accompaniment, no "traditional songs" only...'

That seems perfectly reasonable and what I have experienced at almost every folk club I have been to :-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:57 PM

Will folk clubs survive? Yes, of course they will, along with all the other diverse outlets for the music. Of all types of music I can think of folk music is the most accessible and easiest to get actively involved in. Before WWII it wasn't there but ordinary folk had a lot more on their minds than music and by and large they were happy to sit back and listen. A lot of things changed after the war, and though things have evolved since then you are not going to see a decline in our music. It's never going to be mainstream but it never has been. Surely that's part of the attraction.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:52 PM

Fair enough Dick - I'm just glad you understand what Jim's criteria are :-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:49 PM

Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks. Most club attendees I suspect have wider tastes, which stretch to contemporary songs in the folk idiom, and love the variety of music in the folk genre that can be enjoyed at a well run club such as the Topic in Bradford or the Black Swan in York. quote joe grint.
ihave quoted 7 clubs that are well run and based on jims criteria, and are succesful

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:43 PM

I would say that at the very least 90% of the music and songs I hear in folk clubs is folk music as I and most people (except Jim :-) ) consider it. Clubs that had a narrower booking policy based primarily around traditional song alone would not appeal to me and I suspect would significant narrow their potential audience base. The variety of music to be heard at clubs is their attraction to most I suspect. Jim keeps throwing up extreme comparisons but as has been said so many times on here the music most often heard at folk clubs (certainly those I have attended since the age of 17 - 43 years!) is folk music. Not jazz, not opera, not 'pop'. I've been to see a few blues players at folk clubs over the years and I booked an excellent Danishfolk /jazz fusion band but other than that almost everything else I have heard has been folk

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:37 PM

"Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks"
Jim has complimented us on our booking policy and choice of guests in the past at Tigerfolk, Long Eaton (our last guests before the lockdown were Kevin and Ellen Mitchell with a surprise drop in by Francey Devine) and in February we celebrated our 29th Birthday.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:35 PM

I disagree withJOE GRINT , I HAVE RECNTLY QUOTED TWO CLUBS BASED ON JIMS CRITERIA THEY WERE BOTH FULL. i talk from experience joe grint, you are basing your analysis upon your own club.
ihave had excellent gigs at the following clubs over the last couple of years bodmin, welly teeside folk club stoke on trent, stockton, darlington workshop, folk on the moor nr plymouth derby folk club, these are clubs that fit jims criteria.
personally i think there should be room for trad clubs, contemporary clubs blues clubs and clubs that feature all

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:26 PM

i do not know about bradford topic or the black swan.
all i can say is that i recently had to excellent gigs one at stockton folk club and one at the potteries folk club in stoke on trent, both clubs were full, and i had good nights, with good audience singing , the organiser of the stoke folk club, annie morris sent me a message thankyou for a wonderful night, annie morris used to run a folk club at the black swan in fallowfield manchester and is an experienced organiser.
i know jim would have enjoyed those nights.
i used to play the black swan and bradford topic , i suspect they do not book me any more because they consider me too tradtional[ even though i sing some contemporary songs written in trad style].
i dont care , i had two great gigs in february ,it was just like it used to be good singing and good songs, i get booked here in ireland i had a great gig [unaccompanied] no banjo or concertina allowed i dont care, we all had a great time tradtional music is alive and well in ireland, and stoke on trent and stockton on tees ,and the wilsons club in teeside, bradford topic used to be an ok club too , but cannot comment on it now. I HAVE very few REGRETS ABOUT MOVING TO IRELAND. I hve given myself two places to perform,I CAN HEAR HIGH STANDARD OF TRADTIONAL MUSIC FOR SEVERAL HOURS MOST DAYS ON RADIO+NA+GAELTACHTA.I do miss watching good morris dancing, and i think folk clubs are superior to open mics, and i would be soory to see them disappear, particularly the ones i have mentioned which are based on high resident singer standard

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:55 PM

Why can't that happen in Britain/England

We have given you numerous examples of this happening in Britain. You just dismiss them.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:48 PM

"Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks"
Given the right circumstances - well sung songs fitting the description you give your club - there is no earthly reason that should be the case - that is the limit of what I suggest - no purism - no banning of accompaniment, no "traditional songs" only...
That formula worked for decades and petered out when it was no longer the case
Wider tastes - you mean you expect jazz clubs to put on grand opera or vice versa
Why make such demands on folk clubs unless you regard folk not worth bothering about - do you ?

A few yeras ago I young man I have now come to know well as a friend, posted on this forum that a group of his contemporaries were starting a singing club in Dublin to cater for young people
I ave to say I bridled somewhat to be excluded because of my age (not the case of course)
Now, 'The Night Before Larry Was Stretched' (abbreviated to 'Larry - thank god) is ranked among the best folk clubs I ahve ever attended
Unnacomanied tradition songs, well sung mainly by young people, some of whom are carving a name for themselves elsewhere
Why can't that happen in Britain/England
The only reason I can think of is that there are too few people who have the confidence in our folk songs any more
Sad, sad, sad
Have I aver said what I enjoy and don't enjoy - don't remember have to any extent, but it's immaterial anyway
I love mid-career Sinatra but I wouldn't want to find it at a folk club
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:40 PM

'How about sharing your proof ?'

Again, Jim, you are not reading what people are stating here.

Just a reminder...(readers must be sick of me repeating this)

FACT..90% of the earliest extant versions of those folksongs in the published English corpus are from urban commercial sources.

OPINION (from 50 years study of hundreds of thousands of ballads) this is where 95% originated.

My proof is already out there in 4 published books and numerous articles in other books and journals. And as I've just stated within the next 12 months I will be publishing the earliest sources for all of them.

If you want to read the material before I bring it all together you can find most of it in second editions of Marrow Bones, The Wanton Seed, Southern Harvest, and the new book shortly out, Southern Songster.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:58 PM

Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks. Most club attendees I suspect have wider tastes, which stretch to contemporary songs in the folk idiom, and love the variety of music in the folk genre that can be enjoyed at a well run club such as the Topic in Bradford or the Black Swan in York. Perhaps if Jim popped across here and visited one of them he might find he has an enjoyable and rewarding evening

I was pleased to see earlier that the Black Swan has put together a virtual club night with guests Chris While & Julie Matthews and floor spots from club regulars (sound quality is poor in the first couple of videos unfortunately)

Black Swan Virtual Club Night

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:53 PM

Old anti-drummer joke
A man walks into a shop and says, "I'm a drummer and I've decided to change my instrument
I'd like a Martin guitar, raised frets and a mother of-pearl designs inlay along the neck - with Thomasistic strings"
The man behind the counter stares at him for a second and says, "This is a fish shop"
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:09 PM

"Where's yours?"
You know wheer mine is Steve - thirty years of it
How about sharing your proof ?
All the research in the world is meaningless as regards claims such as your without proof
You fly in the face aof everything that has been believed to date - including by veteran broadside researchers such as Leslie Shepherd
"My resarrch's bigger than yours reduces research to a pissing competition - that is not what I want to be involved in
I left that sort of thing behind in Junior school - got fed up with wining!!
So far, you have admitted that you are unable to guarantee your claims for a single song and have admitted this is your opinion only
What more can I wish for ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 11:43 AM

jesus christ .lets hope he rises again

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 11:21 AM

Not only that, but if the current confinement continues I will have all the proof you need out there in under a year. (That's the 90% BTW)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 11:19 AM

>>>>>you need to have thought them through very carefully - you obviously have not, which saddens me quite a bit<<<<<

Not only have I thought them through carefully, I have actually done the research on almost every single ballad and most of it published. Where's yours?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:49 AM

"so did the anti-racist and gay liberation struggles"
The memory of the Civil Rights Struggles in the Southern United States heve been imprinted forever in our memories through the songs they produced - as did those on the fight against slavery a century before
ONE OF THE MOST POLITICAL OF THE IRISH ONES
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:19 AM

"I'm not going over all that stuff again."
I didn't expect for a moment you would Steve
You have always been at a loss to back up your outlandish claims with rational or even friendly argument and that obviously remains the case
Suggesting that the English hadn't the time to write songs while the Irish undergoing Famine wars of national liberation, mass enforced exile, struggles for land... used those hardships to produce thousands of their most important songs appears to add to your somewhat jaundiced view of the English rural dweller
If you are going to make claims as important as you have about 'The Voice of the People' you need to have thought them through very carefully - you obviously have not, which saddens me quite a bit
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 09:53 AM

I'm not going over all that stuff again. If anyone has the slightest interest they can go back over all the responses to Jim's twaddle on this subject.