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Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD
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Subject: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Hagman Date: 27 Oct 20 - 09:42 PM The RVW Society's record label Albion Records has just released Vol. 1 of a 4-CD collection of RVW's 80 folk song arrangements for voice and piano or violin. "This is the first in a series of four albums recording all 80 of the folk songs in English that Ralph Vaughan Williams arranged for voice and piano or violin. 57 of the 80 songs have not previously been recorded in these arrangements, so there is a good deal of unknown – but very beautiful – music to be found here. This first album has 23 tracks including 15 world premières. It includes Folk Songs from Sussex (1912) and Six English Folk Songs (1935). Later volumes will include songs collected in the Eastern Counties (1908), the Appalachian Mountains (about 1938) and from Newfoundland (1946). Vaughan Williams is well known as a collector of folk songs, but his own collection by no means predominates in this series; most of the arrangements were made and published as a collaborative effort, drawn from many sources. The 14 songs from Sussex on this album were all collected by Percy Merrick from Henry Hills, a farmer from Lodsworth, Sussex, around 1900. Some will be well-known in other arrangements; others will be unfamiliar." Issued Oct 23. More details here: https://rvwsociety.com/folk-songs-vol1/ |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: RTim Date: 27 Oct 20 - 09:57 PM Sorry...But NO thanks, the sort of "art" Folk Music I have been against all the time I have been involved in the music I love. Same every time......No variation, elitist and IMO - cold - with No real life...Sorry! Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 28 Oct 20 - 11:14 AM I don't see why you have to be against it Tim. It's inspired by the same music we listen to, and I think Lark ascending, and Butterworth's Shropshire Lad make very pleasant listening. Ask a simple question. Would you rather have Lark ascending or not? In most peoples case it would be a resounding yes! I also like the Mamas and the Papas, ACDC, BB King, Wilko Johnson, Ian Dury (God rest him) The Animals, and Eric Clapton playing Blues to mention just a few. It does not mean that one musical medium is a threat to another, or I'm being somehow unfaithful to the Folk Tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: RTim Date: 28 Oct 20 - 12:48 PM Nick.....Please don't get me all wrong; I do love the Orchestral music that is created from collected folk song, I just hate the piano with Tenor or Soprano, etc.. To me it sounds so contrived, so it is just not for me.... I have very "catholic" tastes in music from Rock to Modern Jazz and many things between and also World musics, etc... Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,RA Date: 28 Oct 20 - 01:06 PM I kind of get RTim's point to an extent - but I think it is also possible to listen beyond stylistic, aesthetic and indeed ideological features which one finds problematic in order to find some value in the musical material. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Ray Date: 28 Oct 20 - 01:19 PM RVW is clearly one of Britain’s greatest composers. I see no objection to him incorporating “folk themes” in his orchestral music but I don’t think it’s acceptable to present sanitsed (written down and arranged) piano and voice as “folk music”. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: r.padgett Date: 28 Oct 20 - 01:41 PM Simply not my cuppa tea ~ it is to my mind Operatic ~ good though it is Ray |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Oct 20 - 02:57 PM Have to agree with Tim on one level. I certainly wouldn't like to hear our beloved songs being sung by operatic voices. On the other hand Vaughan Williams is the most popular by far of any British composers amongst the general populace. Classic FM has had for many years Lark Ascending at the top of its top 100 and other pieces are also near the top. My absolute favourite is Fantasia on Greensleeves, followed by Lark Ascending. I also absolutely adore the other folksong arrangements by VW and by George Butterworth. But sung in a plummy voice? No thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: RTim Date: 28 Oct 20 - 03:13 PM I agree about Vaughan Williams works....I gave a paper at the Mystic Sea Music Symposium a couple of years ago on his Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1. This piece is made up of 5 of the 70 songs he collected in Kings Lynn, Norfolk in January 1905. I described and provided as much info. on the singers and Kings Lynn as I could find and sang the 5 songs as they were collected (ie. Unaccompanied voice) and then ended by playing the whole orchestral piece...it is only around 10 minutes long, while showing a video of Victorian Paintings and photos of Norfolk. But No Tenors or pianos to be seen. Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GerryM Date: 28 Oct 20 - 06:09 PM Some of my best friends are tenors. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Oct 20 - 07:13 PM Here's the album on Spotify, so you can hear for yourself if you have a Spotify account:I agree with Steve on this, which is also partly agreeing with Tim. Sung in a "plummy voice"? - I gotta remember that term. But I can sing most of these without the plummy voice, and come out with something I like. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 28 Oct 20 - 07:34 PM Imposing styles that are foreign to a musical medium transforms that medium. It becomes something else. Operatic voices and piano, turns it to art music, Thin Lizzy turn the old song about Irish Highwayman Willie Crottie to rock music, and Anthony Newley turns the bawdy song about a lock and key, rewritten by Baring Gould into Pop music. ELO rock up Beethoven, and nobody dies! and that includes the original songs and music. However it has been made clear that nobody is condemning any particular musical medium, and it's worth considering how much art music has influenced British Folk Music. The Rosebud in June was composed by John Barrett, for his play 'The Country Lasses' (1716), the tune has not altered too much so I understand. Does that mean it ceases to be a Folk Song? Of course not. It just means we know where it came from, as we do 'The Dark eyed Sailor'. Is Folk painting less Folk because we know the artist? A stage art music song was adapted by the Folk and changed to Folk song, as were numerous Music Hall songs. Should the writers condemn this transformation, or applaud it, were they alive to do so? Folk songs do not live in a musical vacuum and crossing mediums may not be such a crime after all. I agree with Sharp who said something along the lines of Folk Music will always do good where ever it is found. Blimey! I need a brew after that lot. Kushti Bok Nick |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: RTim Date: 28 Oct 20 - 08:20 PM I have to admit that Jack (John) Langstaff was a friend of mine.....an example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FZlY7zSzok Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 28 Oct 20 - 08:23 PM Well said Nick - worth the effort :-) |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Dave Hanson Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:44 AM AS Martin Carthy said, the only way you can damage folk music is not to sing it. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,CJB666 Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:05 AM Hearing a tenor singing 'folk' reminds me of the GoCompare adverts. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: BobL Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:08 AM Maybe the problem isn't so much that folk songs aren't comfortable being dressed up in concert arrangements, as that the arrangements - some, not all - are very much of their era and now sound quite dated. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:12 AM I must say that this format format leaves me a bit cold but so does a lot of operatic music. I do enjoy RVWs orchestral works though. I must comment on how informative and good natured the discussion has been so far. People disagreeing with none of the "it's not folk / it's crap" or rancour we have seen before. Long may this situation last :-) As an aside, I looked up Nick's parting phrase and found links to some wonderful Traveller and Roma resources. Nais Tuke, Nick :-) |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: G-Force Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:04 AM I find myself wondering whether, in another 100 years' time, some bloke singing a traditional song while twanging on a Yamaha will also be considered 'art folk'. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Howard Jones Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:43 AM Following on from Nick's comments, we should also bear in mind that the way folk songs are often presented by revival folk singers is frequently just as far removed from traditional styles of singing as classical arrangements. It is just that folkies have come to accept this as normal and proper, and find other ways of interpreting them to be wrong. I think the crucial difference is that classical composers regard the source folk song simply as a foundation upon which to create their own work of art, and their aim is to display their musical ideas and the vocal abilities of the singer. The folk singer on the other hand is usually interested in finding a way to display the song itself to its best advantage. If your prime interest is in the song, then naturally the composer's approach, no matter how beautiful (which comes down to personal taste), will feel wrong and perhpas disrespectful to the material, but neither approach is intrinsically better than the other, they are trying to do different things in different ways. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Brian Peters Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:48 AM I thoroughly agree with Nick Dow's post. his kind of folk song arrangement isn' to my taste either, but it's worth remembering that we have no idea how these songs might have been sung in 1750 or 1850, especially bearing in mind that some were written for stage performance and may well have been performed in some kind of theatrical style. Although many of us lovers of traditional song enjoy and even venerate the singing of Phil Tanner, Sam Larner or Pheobe Smith, there is nothing to say that theirs are the only valid styles. And i's no as if the folk revival hasn't also taken enormous liberties with the material in terms of both arrangement and singing style, and I can think of quite a few revival performers who sound as dissimilar to Harry Cox as any art music tenor. It's a matter of taste, not high principle. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 29 Oct 20 - 07:53 AM To answer G.Force's question. I think we will be viewed with reverence for what we achieved, and ridicule for what we missed. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Oct 20 - 11:13 AM Hi Brian, I was about to post a similar response. More than a few of the tracks I looked at obviously are simply going back to their original style, but some sound quite comical and I'm not sure if that was the intention. Have a listen to Rolling in the Dew and Here's adieu to all judges and juries! However, I think we can be allowed to comment on the overall effect whilst taking into account these songs belong to everyone and they are entitled to interpret them in any way they wish. One other little dig, it was actually nice to hear the lyrics without too much obtrusive accompaniment |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Brian Peters Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:11 PM I've just spotted an embarrassing typo in my previous message - I meant to say 'This type of arrangement isn't to my taste', but the dodgy 'T' on my keyboard rendered it as 'his', suggesting I don't like Nick Dow's arrangements. For the avoidance of doubt, nothing could be further from the truth! My keyboard also sabotaged my last paragraph, which reads as if I were attempting a fake Scots accent. Sorry! |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:51 PM I guessed you were cursing your curser! Don't worry! |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: BobL Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:11 AM Brian, I am reminded of an old Dilbert line. PHB: "New kybard? What's a kybard?" |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Peter Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:05 AM "I find myself wondering whether, in another 100 years' time, some bloke singing a traditional song while twanging on a Yamaha will also be considered 'art folk'. " Quite possibly, but I think that the arrangements produced by a lot of younger performers definitely will be. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Brian Peters Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:08 AM "New kybard? What's a kybard?" LOL |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: robomatic Date: 30 Oct 20 - 08:31 AM I appreciate the music of Ralph Vaughan Williams very much. Even more than that last sentence indicates. I was trying to avoid using the word "fan". My guilty secret is the kick I get watching the faces of my phellow Americans when I pronounce his name the way the English do. I think it sounds cool. There is a place for a sort of formal rendering of orchestrated songs that had their origins in no such hallowed halls. The devil, as usual, resides in the details. Might come off as interesting and fun. Might come off as a priggish dog's breakfast. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Jos Date: 30 Oct 20 - 09:22 AM Why - how do Americans pronounce it? |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Snuffy Date: 30 Oct 20 - 09:31 AM US pronunciation "Ralf" English pronunciation "Rafe" |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Charmion Date: 30 Oct 20 - 09:39 AM With a short A and the L in it, Jos. As in Kramden. I, too, am a fan of RVW. Being an Anglican, I cut my musical teeth on his hymn tunes ("Down Ampney" is probably my fave), and over the yearsI have sung many of his folk-song arrangements, trying mightily to sound like Lois Marshall or Janet Baker. Those who diss the classically trained voice as "operatic" are showing their ignorance of both opera and the concert stage. In fact, the preferred sound for RVW's arrangements contains only enough vibrato to cut the room, which takes major control chops. In my admittedly arrogant opinion, the current leading exponent is the Welsh bass-baritone Bryn Terfel, who can be heard here in "The Vagabond" from "Songs of Travel". Now that's a voice with guts, and you can hear every word, clear as the proverbial clanging thing. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 30 Oct 20 - 10:24 AM Effectively Art music and singing, and Traditional Folk Singing have their roots in the same tree. The 'trained' voice for the concert platform, is no more trained than the Traditional Folk singer at the height of his powers. Some of the vocal techniques are very similar and the breathing techniques are also of interest. When I am faced with a Tweedle dum Tweedle dee argument on singing styles (which does happen), I usually end it by suggesting that the protagonists firstly listen to Harry Cox singing Seventeen Come Sunday, and then Pop Maynard singing 'Polly on the shore'. Then I issue the challenge as follows. Sing along with either song, and take a breath only when the singer does and see how far you get. I still need an extra breath on the Harry Cox song. Finally get a musical instrument, play a note, sing unaccompanied for a few verses, play the same note and see if you have shifted. Then test Harry Cox the same way. Find the key he is using and test his pitch. It's bang on every time. The equal of any 'Trained 'singer. End of argument for me. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Jos Date: 30 Oct 20 - 11:08 AM I think you would find plenty of English people who pronounce Ralph as 'Ralf'. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Oct 20 - 11:23 AM >>>Those who diss the classically trained voice as "operatic"<<< I don't think anyone was criticising the operatic voice, and many of the songs under discussion sit just as well with a less 'trained' voice as they do with classically trained. However some of the more basic songs definitely sound at least odd if not hysterically funny being sung by the classically trained voice. It's more about accent and very precise diction than musical ability. I used to really enjoy some of the songs we listened to at school on the BBC programmes 'Blow the wind southerly', 'Once there was a wild rose gay', Marianina' etc, but John Goss singing chanteys creased me up. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Oct 20 - 12:39 PM Absolutely bloody awful, opera singers should not be allowed near to folk music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:52 AM "Absolutely bloody awful, opera singers should not be allowed near to folk music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " To be brutally honest I have herd far more "folk" singers who shouldn't be allowed near folk music! |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:30 AM I `ad that Bonzo3legs in my cab the other day. `e looked well brassed off. Just as if somebody `ad borrowed `is three stumps to play cricket and left `im arsing around on the grass. I said, "Morning Mr.B. What`s put that frown upon your kisser today?" `e said, "Jim, I`ve just come from Covent Garden where all those street entertainers carry on and there`s some bloke there with an `armonium singing all our old folk songs with a voice like `es got a plum in `is mouth. Bloody liberty!" I said, "What`s `e going down like then?" `e said, "Like a storm. All the tourists think they are getting the real McCoy and they`re chucking dosh in `is `at like it`s going out of fashion.!" I said, " Nothing wrong with that, MrB. Nice little earner!!" Whaddam I Like??? |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes Date: 01 Nov 20 - 06:24 AM What's in a name? In her biography, 'RVW', Ursula Vaughan Williams explained that the composer and his family pronounced his name as 'Rafe'. The fact that his name looks as though it ought to be something like 'Ralf' causes confusion, but 'Rafe' was how he wanted it to be pronounced, so who are we to argue? |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Jos Date: 01 Nov 20 - 06:40 AM On Desert Island Discs this morning the guest, Hilary McGrady, asked for The Lark Ascending by Ralph (pronounced 'Ralf') Vaughan Williams, and after an extract had been played the presenter said that it was The Lark Ascending by Ralph (pronounced 'Rafe') Vaughan Williams. So a fifty-fifty split in this very small sample. When I come to think about it, most would probably just say 'The Lark Ascending by Vaughan Williams'. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Bonzo3legs Date: 01 Nov 20 - 07:20 AM Absolutely bloody awful, opera singers should not be allowed near to folk music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 01 Nov 20 - 02:25 PM Yes so you said. No need to repeat yourself. I had the pleasure of hearing Ursula Vaughn Williams speak about her husband, and Folk Song generally. I remember being fascinated with her memories and also thinking that she must have been a strikingly good looking woman in her youth. I will admit that I took a great deal more interest in RVW compositions after that encounter, and it enriched my life for sure. |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 01 Nov 20 - 03:07 PM I met Ursula Vaughan Williams on many occasions, some of them when we were both members of the vwml advisory committee. Ralph was most definitely pronounced Rafe. I wonder if all the contributors here have listened to the cd. I have. I think the focus should be on the arrangements of the songs. That's the point of the cds. And I agree with Brian Peters.... I've heard modern day folk singers whose renditions of the songs are as far removed from, say Harry Cox's singing as these classical singers. Derek |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: GUEST,Chris Green Date: 11 Apr 21 - 01:34 PM I've just spotted this thread while listening to first RVW folk song arrangements CD and checking online to see what people thought of it. I have a folk pedigree going back to the late Sixties when I first started listening to singers of the folk revival and the early folk rock bands, and going to clubs and festivals. However I'm also a huge fan of Vaughan Williams' music and a choral singer who has sung most of his big choral works and also some of his smaller scale choral folk song arrangements. With my choral hat on I'm a big admirer of the singers on this CD, especially Roddy Williams and Mary Bevan both of whom I've sung behind on many occasions, and with my folkie hat on many of the songs on this CD are the songs that first made me fall in love with folk music. I therefore have no problem at all in reconciling the art song nature of the arrangements, which I actually really like, with the 'authenticity' of the songs themselves. To me they are simply another way of presenting the beauty of the songs to a wider audience. And don't forget, towards the end of his life VW collaborated with Bert Lloyd to produce the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, which was source material for many a Sixties floor singer! |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 Apr 21 - 04:40 PM Here's to the writers who gave us the songs, And to the source singers who carried them along, And to the collectors who noted them down, Abd here's to Vaughan Williams, the jewel in the crown! |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: Hagman Date: 11 Apr 21 - 08:30 PM Vol. 2 of this projected four-volume series has just been issued. Contains: Roud No. Nine English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachian Mountains (c. 1938, published 1967): 1 The Rich Old Lady T 183 1’54 2 The Tree in the Wood B 129 2’34 3 Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor B 4 4’03 4 The Lovers’ Tasks S & T 12/21093 3’18 5 John Randolph S & T 10 4’20 6 Fair Margaret and Sweet William S 253 4’42 7 Barbara Ellen B 54 4’34 8 The House Carpenter S 14 5’35 9 The Twelve Apostles T & B 133 3'01 Two English Folk Songs for voice & violin (c 1913, published 1935): 10 Searching for Lambs T & V 576 3’30 11 The Lawyer T & V 922 1’49 A Selection of Collected Folk Songs Volume 1 (1917): 12 Down by the Riverside B 1438 1’27 13 I will give my Love an Apple S 330 1’24 14 The Carter T 2408 1’47 15 The Painful Plough B 355 3’49 16 My Boy Billy S 326 2’03 17 The Fox T 131 1’02 18 The Female Highwayman S 7 2’40 19 Farmyard Song S & T 544 2’41 Total recording time: 56’22 Key: S = Soprano; T = Tenor; B = Baritone, V = Violin The piano accompanies tracks 1 to 9 and 12 to 19 Mary Bevan soprano, Nicky Spence tenor, Roderick Williams baritone, Thomas Gould violin, William Vann piano (Apols for the formatting of the table - but you get the gist, I'm sure: Title - Configuration - Roud No. - Time.) |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: r.padgett Date: 13 Apr 21 - 12:16 PM I seem to recollect seeing a tv film regarding Ralph (Rafe) Vaughan Williams. He came across as a gentle giant I was impressed by his demeanour I have seen and heard similarly arranged operatic folk songs which I thought fine if you wish to simply listen to the songs ~ not too happy as "sources" of songs ~ except the words of course Ray |
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Subject: RE: Review: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs - new CD From: leeneia Date: 15 Apr 21 - 12:03 PM I found that Vol 1 and 2 of this are now on YouTube. But to back up, here's my personal chronology on this: Hagman announces that the first volume is available. Fifteen minutes later, Brit male mudcatter denounces it. Long wrangle follows. By this time, I want to buy it just to irritate the crowd. I learn that the Golden Vanity is on it. I don't want to listen over and over about how the cabin boy was left to drown. I find the recording on YouTube and listen to the first song. I can only understand one-third of the words. As of now, I will not be buying this set. I'm sure it is a wonderful thing for the right people, but I'm not one of them. Thanks for sharing the word, Hagman. |
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