Stinson Records Revisted

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 07:58 PM

Long take:

“Because of the 5 percent return priviledge, that was supposed to enable you to get rid of your rotten tomato records, and send them back to the company. So there were guys, like Charlie Stinson who later put out Stinson Records. Charles Stinson used to warehouse records and go around the country buying up stock from dealers that were quitting the record business. Of course, the record business when radios came in had dipped, and furniture dealers and people like that who had record departments, were tickled to death to sell to him the records for a penny ot two apiece and let him cart them out of the place. So he would warehouse all the standard brand records… Not numerically; he would just have them on the shelves. When it came time, every six months you had this 5 percent priviledge – he would come around and say”How many records do you need?” I'd sayy, “Well, this year I can use 200.” But I would keep the records that I didn't want to send back for credit because I thought someone might buy them later. He would buy them for a penny or two apiece, and sell them to dealers for a nickle.

So I went down to his place and told him, “Charlie, I'll pay you a dime a record, but I don't want you to dump off 200 records.” Now, when it was time for the return priviledge… Let's say it happened in January and in August. He was just collecting records the rest of the time, putting them in inventory. So I'd say, “Rather than go to Salvation Army for used records I'll go to you and let me pick what I want. You'll never miss them. The dealers you schlock your records to wouldn't care.” And I'd say, I'll pay you a dime a record...” And they were clean records.

So I'd cherrypick them for twice as much as he got from others. So he was crazy about me! And I got a lot of great cutout jazz records that way. So because of my relationship with Charlie Stinson, when Columbia dumped… When CBS bought Columbia, and they dumped the old Okeh inventory they had up in the Bridgeport factory, the first guy he called was me. He said, “Milt do you want to go up and cherrypick the stuff in Bridgeport?” I said, “Absolutely!”
[Reading Jazz, 2014, p.222]

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 07:57 PM

Gabler conflates the United Hot Club reissues with the bargain bin stuff more than once. Short take:

“Milt Gabler: I first met Billie (Holiday) when she would come into my shop on 42nd Street with Teddy Wilson. John Hammond liked to come to my shop because I had bought all the old Okeh records when Charlie Stinson was the contact. I went up to Bridgeport where Charlie warehoused records he picked up from dealers around the country and cherry-picked the ones I wanted for the store.”
[Cafe Society, 2009, p.50]

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 07:50 PM

Um… spoiler alert? ;)

It's true. Even more important than being under one roof, it's a environment controlled, archival grade roof that they are all under. Hallelujah.

The 75 year clock started from that shady "30th Anniversary" advertisement (see above) which also mentions Stinson's split with Moses Asche.

And deja vu, the “unauthorized” 1995 Collectables series (see also above) was released, in good faith no doubt, because the same folks thought they had it all in hand back then. Missed it by that much.

I doubt another rights holder/next-of-kin will show however, I would not be the least surprised if more masters, stampers or transcription discs should turn up. We should be so unlucky!

But we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. In the 1920-30s Moses Asche; Milt Gabler, Marshall Stearns &c are teenagers geeking out in old man Stinson's record store and George Avakian is still in knee pants.

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 09:57 PM

announced 6/28/2019 :

Historic Stinson Records Joins Smithsonian Folkways Catalog

Smithsonian Folkways Recordings has acquired the historic Stinson Records catalog: nearly a hundred albums that include foundational Woody Guthrie and Lead Belly recordings as well as works of pioneering 20th century artists in blues, jazz and beyond, including Burl Ives, Josh White, Mary Lou Williams, Coleman Hawkins, Meade Lux Lewis, and Art Tatum.
With roots dating to 1935, the Stinson Trading Company was founded in New York by Charles Stinson and Irving Prosky. By 1939, Prosky was the sole owner of the business, and in 1943 he partnered with Herbert Harris. During World War II, the rationing of shellac (the material from which early gramophone records were made) led Harris and Prosky to partner with Moses Asch, the owner of Asch Records and future founder of Folkways Records. The two companies operated as one for a short time, producing American folk, blues and jazz records that have inspired generations of musicians. The partnership dissolved after the war, splitting important master tapes between both labels.
The acquisition is the result of 30 years of conversations between Smithsonian Folkways and the Stinson heirs, and at long last reunites the Guthrie and Lead Belly recordings created during a brief partnership in the 1940s between Stinson Records and Folkways’ predecessor label Asch Records. The acquisition was finalized by the heir to the Stinson label in a private ceremony at the Smithsonian in May, bringing together recordings that have been separately owned for the last 75 years.
In the coming months Smithsonian Folkways is planning to begin making these recordings available for the first time in decades as the catalog becomes digitized. It is also planning physical releases. These recordings, as with all owned by the label, will be available in perpetuity. Learn more on Billboard.
---------------------

So far, have not seen any announced releases. The STINSON LP catalog consissted of RE-Releases of previous ASCH-STINSON 78's
and a series of NEW recordings made in the 1950's and later.
I eagerly await the release of these 1950's folk revival
recordings, which incude Robin Roberts, Paul Clayton, Ellen
Stekert, Rev. Gary Davis, Hally Wood, John Runge and others.

Have a HEALTHY Thanksgiving!

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 09:36 PM

Too much background to the Milt Gabler interviews that follow:

Surprise! Record companies have no clue what makes a successful song. And so the usual problems of over-supply of the 'bad' and shortages of the 'good' down at the consumer level.

As long as the original metal work holds up, one can always repress another lot of the good stuff. But… what to do with all the clinkers? Columbia's solution was to allow dealers to return a portion of their “remainders” for a factory discount or credit on new orders.

The worst of the worst will have their paper center labels steamed off and the shellac body recycled into new records.

The best of them can be redistributed back into any niche markets where they did sell well and/or given a “bargain” discount in higher volume locations. This is where honest operators like Charlie Stinson and Milt Gabler came in.

New problem: Record companies couldn't tell how many times any one record had been returned for factory credit. Dealers soon noticed the cheapest “bargain bin” inventory was actually worth more for its company/dealer wholesale credit on "hot" new releases than it was on the open retail market. Round and round she goes.

The record company response was what Milt Gabler will be refering to as the “cut out” but that phrase won't turn up until the 1950s and LPs.

Upon return LP jackets, cassette and CD cases get notched or drilled or otherwise defaced so they cannot be returned again. If you have a music collection of any size chances are good you own a few.

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 09:20 PM

The earliest solid references are for Charlie Stinson, not the trading company, and find him in his mid-30s, married and already in the employ of Columbia Phonograph –

“Trade Honors J. H. Mayers on Return From Abroad...
...In addition to supplying the artists, the Columbia Phonograph Co. was well represented through the presence of Mr. and Mrs. E.W. Guttenberge, manager of the wholesale division of the company… and Mr. and Mrs. C.R. Stinson, of the sales force....”
[The Talking Machine World, 15 Nov 1925, p.60]

“A-K, Columbia, Majestic And Stromberg Exhibit At Music Trades Show
...The new automatic record changing phonograph was exhibited by Columbia. This instrument plays nine records automatically and is priced from $295, less tubes, and up. The new Columbia radio and combination line was also on display. C.S. Stinson [sic] and A.C. Kohl were in charge of the Columbia display.”
[Talking Machine and Radio Weekly, Vol.29, No.25, 18 June 1930, p.5]

Oldest & newest found to date. Typical a half-dozen places or so.

Note: Here Charlie Stinson is the equivalent of a modern day product manager. The major record companies are still desperately trying to control the hardware (brown goods) side of the marketplace. The shellac records themselves are more of an after-market accessory. Columbia, RCA &c won't give up until mid-1950s “hi-fi” home systems push them aside.

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 09:12 PM

Bob: You're very welcome. And thanks to our mudelf for all the trimmings and sorting out!

As per the wiki footnotes the earliest date for the company is Stinson's own 1946 ad copy on the occasion of their '30th Anniversary' expansion:

“Stinson Celebrates 30th Anniversary in Disk Biz
NEW YORK, May 25. – According to Herbert Harris and Irving Prosky [sic], the Stinson Trading Company, Inc., is planning a large expansion in connection with its 30th anniversary as a phonograph record manufacturer.

Company has purchased the interest of Moe Asch, but will continue to produce recordings under both the Stinson and Asch-Stinson labels.”
[Coin Machines, Billboard, 1 June 1946, p.102]

...and, so far, nowhere else is it mentioned again until the mid-1930s. Coincidence or not, 1916 is the year Charlie's father Charles P. died.

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 11:38 AM

THIS IS GREAT INFORMATION ,,, THANK YOU. BOB(DECKMAN)NELSON

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 02:57 AM

If jazz historians remember Charles “Charlie” Stinson (c.1890 - 1938) at all it's as the founder of Stinson Records, also not true.

Before there was a Stinson Records label there was a Stinson Trading Company. This is what Proskey et al took over when Charlie Stinson died in 1938.

It was at the Trading Company that Charlie Stinson created the modern “bargain bin” record outlet concept and, along the way, brokered the United Hot Club jazz reissues with Milt Gabler (aka: Roy Ilene of Wimoweh fame/notoriety.) First of their kind.

Strange how few early American jazz & folk music producers were operating in their “native” genre.

More to follow.

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 02:55 AM

Yank historian Matthew Barton rewrites a good deal of the above history in two lectures:

STINSON RECORDS: A LOOK AT THE LABEL FROM ITS FOUNDING IN 1939

Edmonton to the East Village: Canadian Ukrainian Folk Music on a NY Label

In the first video Barton allows the Stinson Trading Co. was started by a man named Stinson – who died in 1938 – and in the second video we learn he worked for Columbia Records:

“Charles R. Stinson of the wholesale department of the Columbia Phonograph Co., New York City, is receiving the congratulations of his many friends upon the arrival of a son and heir, Charles R., Jr.. who arrived March 2.”
[Talking Machine World, March 1928, p.109]

“STINSON – On Thursday, March 24, 1938, CHARLES R., aged 48 year, father of Charles R. Jr.; son of Mrs. Elizabeth Stinson and brother of Mary I. And William P. Stinson. Funeral services at the Funeral Home, 180-04 Hillside Ave., Hollis, L.I., on Saturday, March 26, at 2 p.m.”
[Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 25 March 1038, p.13]

Note: Son of Charles P. (c.1861-1916) & Elizabeth Stinson (1864-1943.)

Cautionary note: All of the relations are listed as born in “England” but, the Yanks often swap “English” & “British” around in their vital records. Fwiw: Many, if not most, of the New England and Midwest-American Stinsons claim Irish.

Subject: RE: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 02:52 AM

Found below the line but not exactly “BS.”

FYI: The Collectable Records line was unauthorized, unofficial, (semi)bootleg or whatever your local word for it might be:

"BS: Stinson Search: I'm getting desperate
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

EUREKA!!!!! (BTW, thank you all very much.) Lib. of Cong. finally sent me a contact, which note I received last night. (Collectables Records is going to be a problem; I can see going into debt - further than I already am.)
For anyone else who may be interested: Stinson was started by Herbert Harris, working in the early days with Moses Asch. There was a breakup of the arrangement. Harris' son inherited, then his granddaughter and her husband. They live in Granada Hills, CA -- Kurtis and Karen Williams. Most of the "records" -- sound, as well as business documentation -- are stored in Karen's mother's house. They are slowly clearing it up (her mom is in a care facility). They will be glad to communicate with anyone and help in matters regarding the Stinson catalogue, but it will take time. (Let me know if anyone wants their mailing address.)

'Catters, I have been spreading the Stinson search question around the universe for several years. I am so relieved. Of course, this means that now I have to think of new questions. Rats -- always something....               Tw”

Subject: Stinson Records Revisted
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 02:50 AM

To paraphrase one album's liner notes: Much has been written about Stinson Records, most of it wrong…

State-of-the-art:
“Stinson Records was an American record label formed by Herbert Harris and Irving Prosky in 1939, initially to market, in the US, recordings made in the Soviet Union. Between the 1940s and 1960s, it mainly issued recordings of American folk and blues musicians, including Woody Guthrie and Josh White.

History
According to most sources, the Stinson Trading Company was established in 1939 by Irving Prosky (1893-1952), a Russian-born distributor of Soviet records in the US, and Herbert Harris, the owner of the Union Record Shop in New York who was a member of the Communist Party and the proprietor of a movie house that screened Soviet films. Harris and Prosky operated the concession to sell records from the U.S.S.R. at the 1939 World's Fair in New York City, but when supplies fell short of demand he and Prosky set up their own record label to produce copies of Soviet and other eastern European recordings, including recordings by the Red Army Chorus. An earlier date for the company's foundation is indicated by a Billboard report in 1946 which stated that it was planning to expand "in connection with its 30th anniversary as a phonograph record manufacturer."”
[wiki]

Discogs and the rest of the internet is copypasta of the above. M.I.A. is anyone or anything named "Stinson." Odd.