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BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Jan 21 - 01:42 PM In my experience (of marking tens of thousands of 'A' Level biology essays, and of assessing the marking standards of examiners in my teams), yes it's grand to be able to demonstrate your skilful martialling of relevant facts, expressing them clearly and in context and putting everything together into a persuasive and well-balanced and well-structured whole. The problem is how to fairly assess those efforts. We would typically mark an essay out of 20. Each tick represented a well-made point which was relevant and in context. But our marking scheme for each question (ironed out for the paper over a whole two days of meetings), which typically covered two sides of A4, contained upwards of forty or fifty potential marking points. Three of the questions selected by the candidate typically had a part A/part B structure requiring long answers, and the other two were of the "Discuss the theories on the origin of life" type. In addition, the essay had to be balanced across that scheme (you couldn't score all 20 points by leaving out a whole area of discussion that you hadn't thought relevant/hadn't revised/had forgotten about). There was the question of overall quality of the answer (which we assessed somewhat subjectively according to several criteria, such as writing in clear and concise English, diagram accuracy, the avoidance of irrelevancies and blatant errors and giving the essay a cohesive structure), to which we allocated a maximum of three "quality" marks out of the 20. No marks were allocated for neatness, nice handwriting or effort, though we were allowed to dock a mark for sheer bloody unreadability, whilst retaining the brief that we somehow still had to process the damn thing... Now each of the poor souls who did the marking had to carry all those caveats in their heads, as well as effectively "learning" the marking scheme - and have that sorted for all nine essay questions on the paper (the candidate had to choose five to answer). In a typical summer exam, I would personally mark about four or five hundred scripts and each member of the team about half that number. Almost all of us were working teachers, doing the marking in the evening and at weekends in term time, working to an extremely tight deadline. Essay setting is a grand idea, but, as you can see, there is another side to that coin. We have to be fair to candidates, whose careers or university entrance depends on our getting this right. Setting tasks that only superhumans could assess accurately doesn't serve them at all well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 08 Jan 21 - 01:31 PM How about a required Presidential SAT as a candidate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: robomatic Date: 08 Jan 21 - 12:48 PM I think there are times when you avoid essay answers. As Steve has mentioned the fair posing, evaluation, and grading of them requires considerable energy and is subject to multiple tiers of correction. And what if the question is technical and the answer is graded on grammar? My father recalled a math teacher who downmarked you if you didn't put a period at the end of an equation. Meanwhile multiple choice can be good or bad depending on the nature of the subject and the quality of the test preparer. In school they varied with the teacher. On the SAT* I thought they were pretty good at getting your level of knowledge although it hurt to feel rushed. In the working world one runs into them in proving that you have familiarity with various tasks and licensing criteria. The official ones have been good, the trades ones have been ludicrously easy, because the people who put the tests together were probably not paid to make a good test and the test itself was mainly to show that you showed up for the presentation. I have been surprised on occasion. As to the larger question of reason and renaissance, the recognition of reason is somewhat elusive. The actual Renaissance may have been a result of plague tearing apart a population that was educated to dark ages standards. Your village started dying, so you prayed, put poultices on the sores, burned a witch or a Jew or two, and possibly went to self-flagellation. I'll never forget a short story I read: "The Plague Comes to Bergamo". At some point, a critical number of people start saying: "Enough is enough is enough." |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Bill D Date: 08 Jan 21 - 12:27 PM Truth is not a road.. it's a feature of a good road. A sane political system is one way reason can be inserted into education. If dozens of variations of education continue, narrow views of 'truth' will always confuse things. Of course, in order to establish common ways to conduct education, political sanity needs to prevail... but that seems to need common education.... Do I detect a circular flaw in progress? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Lighter Date: 08 Jan 21 - 12:01 PM Multiple-choice exams can be brutal - if the distinctions among the choices are subtle enough. In my experience, however, a common method is to make one of the four choices intentionally ludicrous, and the other three distinct enough so that someone with only a vague notion of what's required has a good chance of guessing the answer. But not even the hardest multiple-choice test (which, by the way, even some instructors call "multiple guess," as though that's the proper term) demands the organizational skills and clarity of thought required by essay questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 08 Jan 21 - 11:39 AM Truth, education... what other hiways are there to reason? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 Jan 21 - 10:08 AM Exams are really no more than a test of how young people may cope under pressure and stress... In that respect it shows how prepared they are for survival and progress in the real adult world.. Also "cheating, and getting away with it".. which is also a respected adult business skill... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Jan 21 - 09:23 AM For many years I was an examiner with an 'A' level board, rising eventually to the dizzy rank of team leader of a group of assistant examiners. My specialism was marking and moderating the marking of biology essay papers. It is the hardest damn thing on earth. Right up to the time that the results were announced we were in the back room checking each other's marking, and even secretly checking the marking of our own chief examiners. After the results we had to re-mark appealed results too. I saw it all. Many an injustice must have crept through, and I have sympathy with exam boards backing away from essays and embracing both structured and multiple-choice questions. It may sound like a drop in standards, but it can be done and it's fairer all round. People who can get an extensive marking scheme into their heads and objectively mark the infinite variety of long essays to an acceptable standard are like hens' teeth. If we thought we were getting to within five percentage points of the correct mark for a paper with five essay questions we thought we were doing well. Examinations are unfair as it is, so stripping away at least one layer of that unfairness is creditable (in m'humble). |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Thompson Date: 08 Jan 21 - 08:20 AM During my brief exposure to American education I was astonished by tests of knowledge relying on multiple-choice questions rather than essays, and by languages taught (by people who didn't speak them) from tourist phrasebooks. Later, watching from the distance, I watched Phonics (teach children to read words as they sound, before revealing to them the horrid truth that words aren't actually spelled like that…) |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 08 Jan 21 - 08:07 AM It will take a while for this country to tell the truth. I shall begin by admitting that I post particular topics in a particular order like playing chess; Cults, Reason, Truth, Psychology, Bio war etc. When I see trends and certain things coming I try to shape thought about these events in stages. It is not scatter brained however temperature lowering and raising topics can be random. Honesty is the best policy is represented by Law and Justice. 22 years ago I spooked myself by painting a 16 square fot picture of twin towers on fire with planes in the sky. Cassandra kike events are common with me as it was with my grandmother. (twillight zone music plays) Be that as it may, I feel a respondsibility to speak of these trends. So telling the truth has its costs but as we all can see so does lieing. In the first post of this thread I hoped that the new administration tell the truth about all 'sorts' of things. You may disagree with the truth as I know it, fine, just think for yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: gillymor Date: 08 Jan 21 - 08:05 AM Whoops, posted to this thread by accident. Oh well. Transferred to appropriate thread. ---mudelf |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 08 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM Now 5 people have died frpm the mob violence trashing the Capitol.. because people refused to tell citizens the truth. Like leaving a cult hey were afraid to tell the truth. Honesty is the best policy is the simple lsson Washington needs to learn. I am in favor of disclosure of the truth' |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Lighter Date: 07 Jan 21 - 06:26 PM The Trump insurgents are beyond reason, "renaissance" or not. They have brainwashed and radicalized each other under the beaming smile of Donald Trump. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 07 Jan 21 - 06:32 AM Yesterday was either the high water mark for intolerence and will be met by law, arrest and prosecution OR This is the modern day Fort Sumpter of a new hot civil war as Trump desires. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 07 Jan 21 - 05:57 AM That was good. I laughed when I thought I saw an I. When I saw the T I was more impressed. Oscar Wilde move over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: punkfolkrocker Date: 07 Jan 21 - 01:17 AM trump, the man who put the "T" in reason... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 06 Jan 21 - 11:38 PM Today reason took another vacation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 04 Jan 21 - 03:40 PM Demonizing government has been popularied with the oft repeated Reagan phrase "Im from the government and I'm here to help - is the most dreaded thing ever said" A wingnut said "I want government so small I can drown it in a bathtub" Well we can see what the result is locally and nationally. We have been attacked by a virus. If China attacked would we leave it to State govenors? We have had Presidents who only helped robber barons and not the people from Hayes to Coolidge and beyond. Government trust transparency and truth is needed to clear its reputation. I think even the need to know paradigm needs reform. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 03 Jan 21 - 05:29 PM Missouri? i thot you were british. The up right walker looks straight forward but you need a personal test. I still have not perfected my sky hook. The white house phone operator doesn't answer like it used to either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: leeneia Date: 03 Jan 21 - 05:06 PM Hi, Donuel. We one example of privatization in Missouri, where driver's licensing and vehicle licensing centers are run privately. Most of the centers are not open due to Covid, and the signs on the offices don't say when they will be open again. They don't answer the phone, and their mailboxes are full. The DH called the Department of Revenue, and the Department doesn't even know which offices are open or closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 03 Jan 21 - 11:37 AM There is policy by the rich and for the rich to keep their servants in their place. Be it Republicans or Tories they want much of that government money for themselves. To do that you simply deactivate government agencies and hand those duties over to privatly owned busineses. You slowly dissolve schools and leave private schools for the priviledged. Close libraries. etc. The biggest prize for privatization beasts is to sink their teeth into the Post Office. After Hurricane Katrina early attempts were made for Walmart to take care of the victims. It didn't work. Today Wallmart/Walgreens is to dispense the vaccines and do all the testing. That is failing or never got off the ground. The beauty of privitization -beyond failure- is that it is not accountable to anyone but themselves. 'They' define the argument of privatization as Socialism verses Capitalism. In socialism you will be taxed to death and you don't want that. All I know is that it works and grievences are addressed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 Jan 21 - 12:09 PM I'm the product of a working class family who valued education and intelligence, who aspired for their children to acquire the intellectual skills for social mobility... Thatcher's reign saw to that 'undesirable' ideal being stripped from the ambitions of the British underclass... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM Trouble is, is that half the epople in the world are below average intelligence... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 02 Jan 21 - 10:17 AM There is neo funding of police duties such as having professionals respond to calls regarding the mentally ill or autistic. It even saves money and lives. I call for the 22 Congressmen and 1 Senator who will vote against counting electoral votes for Biden next week to be charged with insurrection and treason next week. Yes that includes Barry Loudermilk, Barry Moore, Guy Reschenthaler, Diane Harshbarger, Mo Brooks and Josh Hawley. As measured and forgiving as I try to be... Some days I am for cruel and unusual punishment for right wingnuts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Jeri Date: 02 Jan 21 - 09:50 AM "Respondsibility" - I'm not sure that isn't a great misspelling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 02 Jan 21 - 08:57 AM When a culture normally rewards competance and respondsibility then suddenly an incompetant irrespondsible populist leader comes along the incompetant people are overjoyed and of course hired. I am dismayed that there are so many incompetants. It sounds arrogant but With effort we could help at least half of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Lighter Date: 01 Jan 21 - 12:50 PM Yeah. I guess I forgot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Jan 21 - 12:23 PM They don't need brains when they got faith, guns, and social media... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Lighter Date: 01 Jan 21 - 10:40 AM The big problem is with those who don't even try to force it to work. And some are proud of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Jeri Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:21 PM Bill, it's about grades, not IQ tests, but I got As and Bs in classes I liked, without studying (I paid attention in class), and Cs and Ds in classes I didn't like - even when I studied. If my brain didn't give a shit, I couldn't force it to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Bill D Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:12 PM When I was in 7th grade, I saw a test score that said 155. The thing is, I was better then at taking tests than I was at 'processing knowledge'. That was what I remember as the Stanford Binet test that students were given. I took it 5 times... twice in the 3rd grade when we moved. I always got high scores, but I had never learned **how to study** and had breezed thru school easily until I hit high school and and college where it was more than just collecting facts and faking it. I had to really work to deal with higher education. I agree that IQ numbers are not a great indication of any basic competence. They always reflect culture, genetics, peer acceptance..etc. ...but many points in that long article about language skills being important really resonated... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Jeri Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:00 PM I've got a fairly high IQ, but what Steve said. It doesn't measure how effectively a person could use it. It doesn't measure (and I'm commpletely with you on this) whether a person just stopped wanting to answer questions. I had disgraphia as a kid, so my first test was oral. I scored a bunch higher on that one than the one I took when I could write. And then, there was ADD, and getting to the point of "Aw, forget it. This is stupid". Some of the dumbest people I've known were doctors, who I'd guess, were good at memorizing stuff. Some of us just would rather figure things out than remember stuff. And average IQ is ALWAYS 100. If we dumbed down, then possibly one would be able to score 100 if they could correctly spell "the", and count to 10. THAT is what can change, but 100 is always the average. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Dec 20 - 09:19 PM The last time my IQ was measured, it was 178. It means absolutely nothing, and this from a bloke who could be crowing about it. Ignore. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:57 PM My IQ was 88. (there were sections I refused to answer like stringing beads) My EQ is 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:51 PM Sorry to have to tell you and Christophe, Bill, but the "average" IQ will always be 100, even if we all turn into Mr Spock. The best bet is ignore "IQ" altogether. The guy who invented the notion was a bit of a fascist, after all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:51 PM The theory of an ongoing erosion of language skill is sound and probable. There are of course ancillary causes such as political policy of limiting education to the wealthy class. Less likely causes could include genetics and disease (parasite or infectious). What if there is an explosion of dyslexia for example. Changes in my language skill in 20 years is like night and day simply due to practice. Beauty depends on culture. For some in the USA beauty is money or hotness. In the Pentagon it is more bang for the buck For the Navaho: Walking in Beauty: Closing Prayer from the Navajo Way Blessing Ceremony In beauty I walk With beauty before me I walk With beauty behind me I walk With beauty above me I walk With beauty around me I walk It has become beauty again Hózhóogo naasháa doo?Shitsijí’ hózhóogo naasháa doo?Shikéédéé hózhóogo naasháa doo?Shideigi hózhóogo naasháa doo?T’áá altso shinaagóó hózhóogo naasháa doo?Hózhó náhásdlíí’?Hózhó náhásdlíí’?Hózhó náhásdlíí’?Hózhó náhásdlíí’ Today I will walk out, today everything negative will leave me I will be as I was before, I will have a cool breeze over my body. I will have a light body, I will be happy forever, nothing will hinder me. I walk with beauty before me. I walk with beauty behind me. I walk with beauty below me. I walk with beauty above me. I walk with beauty around me. My words will be beautiful. In beauty all day long may I walk. Through the returning seasons, may I walk. On the trail marked with pollen may I walk. With dew about my feet, may I walk. With beauty before me may I walk. With beauty behind me may I walk. With beauty below me may I walk. With beauty above me may I walk. With beauty all around me may I walk. In old age wandering on a trail of beauty, lively, may I walk. In old age wandering on a trail of beauty, living again, may I walk. My words will be beautiful… |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Bill D Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:39 PM To go back to the original OP theme:
'' The average IQ of the world's population, which has steadily risen from the post-war to the late 90 s, has decreased over the last twenty years... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Bill D Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:36 PM Me? Walter Kaufmann... former Philosophy professor at Princeton. Heard him speak in St. Louis in 1959 and bought every book by him I could find. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Kaufmann_(philosopher) ... and many Sci-fi authors with creative themes... and a few friends who showed me new ways to approach problems... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:13 PM It has become obvious my other dark and morose influence was my neighbor, Rod Serling. Now being quite open what or who influenced you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Bill D Date: 31 Dec 20 - 04:35 PM When Robin Williams was really 'on' and tuned in, he was amazing. His problem was he could seldom turn it off, and automatically went into fast-forward at the slightest provocation. There many examples on Youtube.. some very funny.. some just irritating. You sort to suit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Dec 20 - 12:10 PM "As unfunny as Bob Hope at Miss World 1970." :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Dec 20 - 12:01 PM Mork for a role model...??? hmmmm... Robin Williams didn't amuse us Brits much.. To our tastes he was one of the most irritating unfunny 'comedians' ever.. An accolade shared unfunnily enough with other notable American self-indulgent motor-mouth babbling stream of shite unfunny men... Fortunately American Comedy has recovered from that phase of tedious annoying drivel, and is far more universally entertaining for intelligent adults these days... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:07 AM I know who I am after a lifetime of examinaton. You should try it. I'm no Robin Williams. But I do have an obcession with his free association dialog, share his only child status and exact birthday. I do have a few talents but too few to my liking. The abject silliness and barbs do not translate well in text for example, "good morning viet nam", see what i mean. I never had his riches so I could not help people the way he did. None of his influence would help me get a job at the state department. I never met Robin but I met his friends from Chris Reeves to Steven Wright. Yes I have had fun with your personnae from my point of view but I am definately not obcessed with you. That you are obcessed with me is part of the inside joke. I think you want to be the boss. If I could I would knight you Grand Poohbah of mudcat BS. I may as well poke fun at Mitch McConnel, whose sense of humor you share. Your criticism and ad hominum comments over jokes is where much of your bruhaha started. I presume insight has not helped, so back to the same questions posed by religionists and scientists s alike, How can we restore a renaissance of reason and morality? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:54 PM Nothing to do with thread drift, Donuel, old chap. It's to do with your utterly weird obsession with riling other people, for psychological reasons of your own that we can't begin to understand. You can't help it. Examine your conscience, mate. This post is a substitute for the post you should be getting from the mods but which you are not getting. Just stick to your cosmological bollix is what I suggest. Happy new year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 30 Dec 20 - 03:47 PM Nonsense, thread drift is old hat, in fact it is a time honored tradition. HAPPY NEW YEAR |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Dec 20 - 01:07 PM btw.. Happy new year... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Dec 20 - 01:06 PM Donny - you started a potentially interesting thread, some of us enjoyed getting involved in a stimulating debate. But you couldn't resist buggering it up with your usual lack of self restraint... That is definitely unreasonable... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 30 Dec 20 - 12:49 PM Nothin like teaching kids to stop tryin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Donuel Date: 30 Dec 20 - 12:38 PM I salute you Jeri. You are skilled. You have the makings of an iconic children's book. Dealing with Steve below the line is like a never ending episode of 'South Park". I'm Stan and Steve is a well behaved Cartman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:32 AM Cheers for that, pfr. |
