BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:38 AM

Thinking ahead is critical. To have an honest conversation about the future you have to have an honest conversation about the past.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:33 AM

I must say that I like the idea that teaching kids to play chess will solve the problems of fake news and alt truth. It has a unique irony to it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:23 AM

The most fruitful cities to meet remarkable people for me was Boston NYC Chicago SF and Rochester NY.
Wash DC has been a bust.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:06 AM

i was taught that life is shaped by the books you read and the people you meet. Having a reading difficulty associated with migraine I chose 'the people you meet'. It became a hobby to meet scientist pioneers, spiritual (civil rights) people and musicians.

Meeting remarkable people was far more rewarding and inspirational than any museum FIELD TRIP I ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 07:26 AM

Yeah, Bill. If there was a "how," it would have happened long ago.

If a school board told parents that it wanted to teach their kids to reason effectively, most would be outraged that you were trying to "indoctrinate" children into "what to think" about their the parents' hot-button issues.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:41 PM

That's it Bill. Easy words to say, valiant aspirations...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:33 PM

"Restore...have.. teach... get... start..." etc.

Indeed, all good ideas. Missing, of course, is the ubiquitous "How".

I tried...back up there somewhere... to suggest some sneaky ways to work in the beginnings of changed attitudes and practices without seriously disturbing the set-in-stone recalcitrant patterns of the fundamentalists in religion, politics and culture. I hope that some steps will be taken when Betsy DeVos leaves office in 2021.... not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:28 PM

Incidentally, if citizenship "education" involves telling children to be loyal and patriotic, I'm not with you. Patriotism is fine as long as it's sentimental and no more. I'm a patriotic Englishman who loves his country of birth, etc., but ask me to point a gun at a foreigner, unless he's directly threatening me or my loved ones, and I'll soon tell you where to get off, whatever the cost to myself. Loyalty, to me, must be earned, never imposed as of right or tradition. You're not educating children if you make them salute a flag, chant a patriotic verse, sing the anthem or pray for God to bless the fatherland. That's the very opposite of education.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:15 PM

Well, the concept of teaching children how to be good citizens sounds fraught. When you consider all the undemocratic nonsense that goes on, from Trumpist lying, populism, multinationals ruling the roost, unelected lobby groups having a stranglehold on elected politicians, mass media totally screwing/skewing national debate... So where do you pitch your citizenship teaching? Look out, you're being watched...

As for teaching children how to think, we've been there before. It's a grand aspiration but begod does it need a fair bit of fleshing out. The people who are currently teaching children to think are teaching children to think their way (see above paragraph). And I include organised religion in that. If you insist to children that almighty God created them and everything around, that they're miserable wretches who needed a "saviour," and that you may well be ostracised if you demur (and think beyond Christianity there), whilst at the same time wondering how you're going to confront all the bollix they pick up from social media and porn websites, well I think we may be in a little trouble. The simple message that believing anything you're told without evidence (no matter how plausible it sounds), is a dangerous path to take, and that you really should know the difference between evidence and bullshit, would be a good start. But, if you're a teacher, you'd better put that across furtively. Watch your back!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 04:46 PM

start teaching children to think ahead to question to anticipate what other people might be doing to solve problems , there is a game that does this it is called chess

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: gillymor
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 02:30 PM

Start teaching Civics again as well. People need to learn how to be a good citizen, how government functions and that it's not a GD reality TV show.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 11:34 AM

To get back to Donuel's question: how can we restore reason? I suggest the following. There can be other ideas I haven't thought of.

Restore the science requirement for high school graduation.

Have English and social-science classes teach students how to recognize propaganda and manipulation.

I have read that common sense is learned at home, from the family. Get parents to put their phones down & get away from their screens and start teaching their children how to think.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 07:13 AM

my remarks about narcissm were not aimed at anyone on this forum, as i understand it magic mushrooms are generally weaker than fly agaric, and yes aldous huxley experiments were under contreolled consditions . ithink that the way to achieve spirituality is not thougha mushroom or a pill . i also think that aristic creativity is not achieved through a pill or a mushroom.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 07:02 AM

FaceBook somehow makes money on nazi forums discussing the real reasons for safely blowing up Nashville with a broken down motor home for the fascist cause...
not to be confused with fact-cious causes.
A Fact-cious cause: Racism today has the same prime mover as it did in the days of slavery -MONEY SAVED-

The anemic response by a few sport teams postponing a game in protest of racial murders are hailed as wonderful but I find it pathetic.
Its not fuuny that money is often the bottom line.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 06:21 AM

The other issue that has come to the fore is racism, or as a person I know calls it the REAL religion of Whiteyanity. Its the Trump base that has been around calling itself born again, evangelist and prosperty faith by REAL Americans. Catholics have their share of Whiteyics but are in a different sub set imho. Of course racism exists in a tribal mentality outside of the confines of most world Re-Ledgends. Through my eyes Jews are not immune from rascim.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 01:21 AM

Without clicking on it I can guess that is her interview with Michael Pollan - it was very interesting and I heard it repeat recently.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:56 PM

Happens to me all the time.
I remember hearing this on NPR last year, I believe: Fresh Air, on psychedelics.

Anything that works, can be abused. I think psychogenic drugs have a greater potential than others.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:55 PM

You didn't need to. Your brilliant post cut right through.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:12 PM

Jeri - didn't see your second post while I was writing...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:10 PM

Well aware of claims for "Clinical potential of psilocybin as a treatment for mental health conditions "

.. under specialist professional controlled clinical conditions...

But reality for mass majority of UK youth hallucinogenic substance experimentation
is too far removed from this ideal safe legal clinical supervised drug treatment..

Drug crime gangs love this kind of academic legitimisation for their business promotion
to impressionable teenagers...

Yeah.. 40 odd years ago we were also easily convinced
by older cooler clever student peers
that cannabis and mushrooms were safer than alchohol and tobacco...

Some of my old mates from those days, the ones not dead, still remain fucked in the head...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 07:53 PM

But taking into consideration what PFR said, the use of psilocybin is generally administered in a controlled, supervised environment, not buying a bag of 'shrooms off your friend's cousin.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 07:49 PM

It's understandable if someone isn't aware of recent developments. One article on psilocybin: Clinical potential of psilocybin as a treatment for mental health conditions There are loads more.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 06:14 PM

"As an advocate of mental health I do believe mushrooms deserve a second or third look. They are impressive even after a 20 year hiatus."

There is no way, in that case, that you can be any kind of advocate of mental health.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 01:41 PM

"Not all psychopaths or narcissists are evil but some are."

But all can be a persistent pain in the arse...!!!


When I was young and misguided I protested at repressive new UK legislation
criminalizing nature's own freely growing magic mushrooms..

Now I'm older and a little bit wiser, I accept and support this law..

Teenage curiosity and experimentation is a prerequisite for development of reason,

But teenagers need to be protected from the darker dangerous extremes,
where their curiosity and experimentation can lead them

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:34 AM

Typical narcissist remarks:
You crossed me, I will NEVER forget.
Look what you made me do.
You are second rate.
I am all powerful.

Not all psychopaths or narcissists are evil but some are.
-------






As an advocate of mental health I do believe mushrooms deserve a second or third look. They are impressive even after a 20 year hiatus.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 06:03 PM

Narcissists do not generally listen to others, so they cannot be reasoned with because they are only listening to themselves

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 03:57 PM

.. can narcissists be truly reasonable people...???

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 02:52 PM

Many people already *are* revolting.

[Sorry, I could not help myself.]

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 02:48 PM

Maybe the title of this thread deserves to be asked of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 10:10 PM

We have to stop meeting like this.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 05:38 PM

Nice slur. Have another batch of mushrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 05:03 PM

Drive sober or get pulled over like Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 11:30 AM

Of all the people to start a thread on reason. Weird.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 11:22 AM

it is difficult trying to talk reason with the unreasonable

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 10:52 AM

I'm expecting Steve to have an unholy inspiration such as;

The tragedy of the commons happens all the time
No food for children is not a despicable crime
But a tragedy of corporations is the worst on Earth
Thank god my investments peaked and aren't cursed
++Desolate death, evictions, addictions and pests
are glorious for the unequivical masters of lies
Mercy is the power to avenge as sweet revenge crests
The most beautiful music comes from anguish and cries
__Killing blacks is even better when its done by slow knee
Calling me racist or Nazi is fake news and simply phony
They say God called upon me to cure these times of evil
That is hysterically funny to those who know I'm the DEVIL
SS

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 10:39 AM

woof woof
stay tuned for a verse by the cursed Steve Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 09:15 AM

Doggerel.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 09:12 AM

I don't promote any hope for a provoked revolt.
At the most you grab ghosts by the throat
and choke dopes who boast of cloaked votes.

Birds of a feather flock together
Cross species friendships are rare
Peace doesn't seem to last forever
War soars when good folks don't care

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 20 - 02:55 AM

I think the people might revolt

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 06:19 PM

Here are some changes in law enforcement and how it fell short
https://theappeal.org/politicalreport/states-in-2020/#policing

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 05:06 PM

In my life I don't know what a flash back is and only tried psylocybin as an adult experiment. Its a Wonderful Life was on the TV as I began to fare right, you can't hear that in text.eel the effects. The experience made regular consciousness seem ridiculous and very funny.
Agaric is poison although I witnessed a friend become nauseus from Psylocybin.______________



Character is a combination of a healthy or sick psychology and one's morals.
In choosing leaders we should be more careful and wary of the candidate's psychology in the future. However there are problems with testing.


Bill you're right, I used to say people should read more carefully. I know I should actually write more carefully. I dislike a dry and stuffy approach. Tone of speech changes in my mind when I try to be clever but it can't always be heard in the text.
Its my angular gyrus region of language processing in my brain and would take alot of effort to change at this late date.
My wife would have to make a gigantic effort to see and think in 3D but she could if she worked on it. If we miss a critical stage of learning when young we carry on and make allowances. The brain is plastic but the training demands diligence and disipline.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 04:46 AM

I've sometimes thought that the best way to demystify drugs for young people would be to have a age limit above which things get legal. Like 65. Then getting stoned might start like being seen as akin to Dad Dancing, Young people would be likely to scorn it. (Though with Bill Bailey winning Strictly Come Dancing, Dad Dancing might get a bit more respect now.)

But I can't see any of that as relevant to the matter of finding ways of getting out of the hole our societies seem to be in.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 04:33 AM

A very safe and healthy way of expanding your consciousness is to leave your headphones at home and go for walk in the fresh air to take in the sights, sounds, smells and feel of the natural world (you can do that even in a busy town street). It can be done if you open your mind, take a deep breath and banish your troubled thoughts for a few minutes. The idea that you can "expand your consciousness" by consuming a poisonous fungus is ludicrous and dangerous, and I'd gently suggest that the major promoter of such notions in these threads often shows signs that he'd have been better advised not to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 11:26 PM

the biggest culprit was the irresponsible timothy leary.
the best way to expand consciousness is through transcendental meditation,.
the problem with fly agaric even more so than magic mushrooms is not being able to determine its strength,it is a bit like culinary russian roulette,
the lapps used to dilute the strength by taking it at second hand by drinking reindeer urine after the reindeers had been eating fly agaric apparently as i understand it, habitual use of magic mushrooms destroys the pineal gland

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 09:41 PM

"It is the only safe organic means of expanding consciousness I know of

Said it before, say it again..

bollox is it safe...!!!!!

I've seen what it did to friends and acquaintances in my teen years social circle...

It also f@cked my head up more negatively, than any positives you are irresponsibly celebrating...

Experiences at 17 - 19 were still causing flashbacks and anxiety attacks into my early 20s...

Teenage experimental years are the worse possible time
to be messing up adolescent underdeveloped brain chemistry and electrical circuits
with hallucinogenic drugs..

Maybe, when an adult brain is properly fully grown and developed.
Then, and only then, might mushrooms be 'safer' to experiment with...???

If anything, mushrooms are more likely to destroy an intelligent teenager's
ability to develop independent mature reasoning...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 09:35 PM

Hear hear! In the mangled (probably) word of the Lord, let our speech be yea yea, nay nay!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 09:14 PM

The problem is, kidding and oblique references don't parse well in text based discussion. You have a wide range of interests, Don, but you often embed good points within language that needs a bit of explication. Sometimes an interesting offhand remark needs context and/or details to see how it is relevant.
   The legality of various drugs is only peripherally related to what it means to expand consciousness. It has been many, many years since *I* imbibed any beyond an occasional sip of some form of 'alkeyhall' and I can't tell you whether it did more than make me feel good and relaxed.
   I do know that my reasoning seems better without it... ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 08:46 PM

Well I WAS KIDDING but its legal in many states now. EVEN AFTER 20 years there is no craving. It is the only safe organic means of expanding consciousness I know of. Those who abuse alkeyhall and pot are drowning their consciousness imo.
The drug recipe for public injestion by the ancient Greeks seems to have been lost. Popular demand was so great it required secrecy back then.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 04:26 PM

Like Ralph Nader, that idea would get some votes. Mushroom day for 'everyone' is not in the cards.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM

I am mortally hyper curious and I'm no paragon of intellect, but its better than alternative facts and interesting/truthiness combined.

There are drugs for curiosity. The Ancient Greeks had their drug rave. I vote for magic mushroom day for everyone when they reach 21, graduate, enter gov service and thier marriage day. [;^])
Just ask Aaron Sorkin or see his work.