Whalers and chanteys?

Subject: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Planetluvver
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 03:12 PM

In a thread (see below) regarding work songs aboard boats, someone introduced the idea that traditions may have varied among the various types of sea trade. They said there was a lack of evidence for whalemen using chanteys.

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=167430&messages=101

Since that thread ranged far and wide and my topic was a mere blip in the discussion, I thought I would start a new thread.

Gale Huntington's "The Gam: More Songs the Whalemen Sang" ISBN: 978-1-935243-96-0 might help answer the question. This book is a sequel to his previously published "Songs the Whalemen Sung."

I just wanted to mention this. A search for "the gam" in the forum did not show evidence for this book being discussed on the forum.

Having done some sailing, I enjoy singing chanteys and sea music, both old and modern.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,maeve
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 03:49 PM

Search for the discussion "Books by Gale Huntington-Whalemen, Songs of People" "The Gam" is mentioned there by a few folks.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:24 PM

FYI: The 'other' forum is in chronological order beginning c.300BC, albiet disjointed of late. It's up to the century mark in posts yet still dawdling in the 16th century AD. Huntington is 21st century. I don't know the we'll ever make it that far.

A lot of your findings will depend on your specific definition of the (sub)genre.

Gibb: I have sung the St. Vincent/Grenadines "whalers" version of "Shenandoah" -- which I know from hearing the whalers sing it themselves -- while rowing a whaleboat. 'Shenandoah' rhythm/meter

There are also a few small boat examples in the Bahamian Deep River of Song catalog IIRC, though I don't know as I would mark them down as work songs myself. More for the tourist and fun.

I was a bit suprised the North American Basque whaling fleets turned up nothing in the other forum so far. They sailed by the tens and hundreds of thousands per season but nada song... so far.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:25 PM

why dont you pm spb cooperator

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:56 PM

That Bahamian When the Whale Get Strike tune I was thinking of is here: Subject: RE: Penguin: The Greenland Whale Fishery.

It's even the same fishing grounds as the Basque... huh!

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:56 PM

I'm pretty sure this will have been mentioned in previous threads but whaling was on its way out by the time the chanty era was starting. It's pretty certain that some latterday whalemen would have known chanties but we simply have no records of them using them. The British whalemen's journals are few and far between and those that have survived show no evidence of chantying. Unlike the American journals they don't even contain songs, except for a few written by the likes of ships surgeons, but none of these entered oral tradition.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 08:44 PM

Had a quick peek ahead in the notes and there are about ten references to whalers chanting and singing at work. All ten are in the 19th century and are already mentioned in Gibb's The Advent and Development of Chanties thread.

This isn't counting all the Reubens & Ranzos & gones for a whaler &c. Can't say what else might turn up. My reading list is a disaster area.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 09:33 AM

Are any of these whalemen based in the Arctic or the Pacific? Are any of them obviously British whalemen? I'm aware of a group of coastal based whalers in North America who sang when doing some of the labouring on the carcases and rowing. I wonder how many apply to haliard work or working the mechanics of the ship. Just interested.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 06:21 PM

c.1833
“A Man Overboard!
...The whaling barque Diana of London, Capt. Harriot, some twenty-three years ago, was in the Sooloo Sea with a 90 bbl. sperm whale alongside….

...The men then resumed their stations at the windlass; but, instead of shipping the handspikes, faced aft, without exchanging a single remark with one another. The mates were over the side on the stages, ready to cut in, but, like the men, remained silent; the captain walked the quarter-deck, deeply affected; and even the men at the mast heads looked down in sadness. All were dumb. This silence remained unbroken nearly five minutes, when the captain, as if starting from a sleep, sung out––“Hook on.” Silently a boat-steerer lowered himself upon the whale, adjusted the hook in the rising piece, sung out “Haul taut,” which was followed by another order, to “heave away the windlass.” The men took to their handspikes; clank, clank, revolved the windlass; but no song. “Heave away, my boys,” (our best songster,) “give us a song!” But Dick was in tears; and when he attempted to sing, the “Yo, heave O,” seemed to stick in his throat.

“Heave cheerily, my lads,” again shouted the captain, springing forward himself and seizing Dick's handspike. “Heave, O, eve O!” he took-up the broken sounds, and as he was an excellent singer and full of life, by his ready example and encouragement, soon brought the men into working order.”
[Supplement to the Connecticut Courant, vol.XXI, no.10, 3 May 1856]

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,MichaelKM
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 03:13 AM

Stan Hugill, in one of his 'Bosun's Locker' articles in Spin magazine, stated that ships with large crews had little or no use for shanties for hauling and that whalers tended to have large crews. Nevertheless, even on such ships, shanties were still sung at the capstan and windlass. In his book 'Eighteen Months on a Greenland Whaler', published in New York in 1878 but relating to a whaling voyage in the late-1860s, Joseph P. Faulkner begins his narrative by describing his joining in the singing of a shanty but his ship was small and the shanty was sung at the capstan, so that does not carry the matter any further. I do not know if there are any other references to shantying later in the book.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 08:55 AM

MichaelKM,

More likely a windlass rather than a capstan on that schooner, I think.

Indeed, it may have been Hugill that floated or reinforced an already existing idea (i.e. which inspired this thread) about less chanty singing on whalers. I can't readily discover if that's an idea Hugill "borrowed" from his reading or came up with himself. He would not really have been in the position to really scour primary sources. I conjecture that he used the "crews were too large" idea to come up with the idea--and then propagated that idea repeatedly in presentations. Another place where he presented that idea was at an 1980 talk at Mystic Seaport. Interestingly, Stuart Frank -- at that time sort of just taking cues from Hugill-- repeated the idea a short time later at the event. BUT, in his 2000 book, Frank has done his due diligence as a scholar and revisits the idea. He contests the "large crew" rationale, saying that only a fraction of the whaler's crew was engaged in those jobs such that the overall crew size is not germane.

M. Lutz spoke to the (evidently conventional wisdom) idea of less chanties on whalers in her 1977 dissertation, offering some rebuttal.

***
Huntington's _The Gam_ does not contain chanties. Huntington rationalizes the lack of chanties in his sources (mainly whalemen's journals) by saying that (paraphrased) "the men didn't think of chanties as songs." Maybe so. But that's not particular to whaling ships; there is VERY little discussion of chanty singing in the journals of any seamen. After a point, it turns up, rather, in published travelogues.

***

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 10:21 AM

Whalers don't get much of a mention on any subject however, there is nothing in the sources to suggest whalers were a world apart from the maritime in general. And everybody's work 'songs' came in two parts.

The was no shortage of professional musician/song leaders on larger vessels, R.N & East India Fleets inclusive. The trans-Atlantic cable crews had upwards of two hundred men on four capstans. They used a fiddler to keep time. Fiddlers rarely sing and fifers can't. There will be no 'call' or 'verse.'

The chorus or reply may still be present, or not. It is not possible to project/predict from the general document record how any one vessel might have got on.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 01:59 PM

I know Bullen's 'Cachelot' (1875) has some references to chanties as mentioned on the other thread. I'm on the 100th page at the moment and the ship is out of New Bedford and in the Indian ocean having caught a few sperm whales. I think had there been any so far FrankB would have mentioned them.

At the height of chantying British whaling was on its last legs.

BTW, Gibb or anyone else, do you know the actual name of the whaler FrankB sailed on out of New Bedford in 1875? Be interesting to see if it turns up as one of the vessels given in Huntington.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 10:39 PM

>At the height of chantying British whaling was on its last legs.

This is neither here nor there in terms of settling these questions— it's merely fodder for speculation of my own, no better than Hugill's speculation based on the "crews were too large" rationale—but:

As I point out in my movie, it was whalers, into the 1920s, that continued most to rely on the brake windlass as a device (whereas merchant ships had replaced it with other devices decades earlier). Whalermen needed to use the brake windlass A LOT, and for heavier labor than raising anchor. Does that mean they were inspired (I won't say "compelled") to sing chanties? I don't know, but it's a possible (though ultimately unprovable) theory.

What was the proportion of whalers to other commercial ships, at any time? I have no clue how to put a number on it, but I assume it was far less. So, if we compare circa 20 good accounts of chanty singing being mentioned on whalers to x-number of such accounts (direct accounts—exclude general discussions. which are highly biased) from other kinds of vessels, do the proportions match up? In other words, if the number of whalers compared to shipping vessels was, say, 1 to 5 (a random number I just made up), and we have 20 accounts from whalers and (say) 100 from others... then I don't think there is great cause to suppose chanty singing aboard whalers was *proportionately* less.

For me, the evidence of chanty singing on whalers, though less than we might like, is *enough* such that I don't find compelling reason to assert a claim that there is something special to be noted along the lines of "chanty singing was absent / far less in whalers." I, at least currently, suppose that idea was "put on the table" by the likes of Hugill and spread as a conventional wisdom that I don't feel strongly compelled to address it one way or the other just *because* it was put on the table (by someone who didn't make a real study of it).

People develop talking points for their presentations to audiences. I suggest that one of Hugill's things was to emphasize the factor of crew size in relationship to chanty singing. His "point" about the whalers nicely accompanied that as a talking point. (I'm certainly "guilty" of my own talking points!)

Steve, I appreciate your points about Bullen's Cachalot. Will have a look if I get a chance.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jul 23 - 01:01 AM

Steve,

There appears to be an understanding (which I'm in no position to question) that Bullen's whaler was the 358-ton barque SPLENDID.

Here are a couple sources, for example, that make the claim:

https://natlib.govt.nz/records/23079883?search%5Bi%5D%5Bname_authority_id%5D=-103803&search%5Bpath%5D=items

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0843871413513100

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Jul 23 - 04:08 PM

Last legs... &c &c...

Chantey...
Deciding what to leave in; what to leave out, will not have the benefit of the word “chantey,” nor any normative reference definition(s) thereof, until the classic chantey era itself has, mostly, gone the way of British whaling.

Commercial...
Whalers are commercial maritime. Up to c.1855 I get 2 whaler references and 700+ for everybody else and state navies. Whalers and clippers, otoh, about the same. Pick a trade, any one trade, and it will lose v. the sum of all trades minus your one. With a hyuuuge asterisk for...

Error...
A majority of inspection error versus a margin. The total sources that can not be sorted in any way might tip the scales to any one service many times over if “perfectly observed.”

Sources...
Opportunity for observation, documentation and retrieval will be anything but equal and stable for all trades and eras. Passengers increase the likelihood of something getting seen & recorded. Operating offshore for months on end does the opposite. Industrial scale reproduction and distribution, and institutional retention of the sources, will greatly favour the second half of the 19th century over the first.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 06:36 AM

Getting way ahead of myself here. Actually turned up in the spelling debate searches but, so far, the earliest whaling with a shanty/chanty mention:

“During the process of cutting, as the crew heave away at the windlass they are urged to their work by the inspiration of song, peculiar to them. The order from the captain is to “heave away and chanty up,” the word “chanty” meaning to sing, the songs being known as “shanty songs.”

Touching this point I reproduce here the following extract from a letter from Capt. William M. Barnes:
“When a whale ship is so fortunate as to find whales, time becomes of importance, and as a ship when in the act of cutting is in a great degree motionless, whalemen are anxious to finish the work and to get under sail again. Often a storm is seen approaching, or the ice is close at hand to leeward, or night and darkness are near. Experience has shown that the men work more cheerfully at the windlass when their quite tiresome and monotonous labor is enlivened with a good song, and masters of whalers congratulate themselves if they find among their crew one who can lead off at the windlass with a rousing song. The men forget their fatigue; they quit grumbling, and with merry laughter join in a rattling chorus, while creaking falls and clanking pawls, and the frequent shout of 'Board, Oh!' tell them that the work is fast being accomplished. It will be a happy change when the tireless, uncomplaining power of steam is used in the 'cutting-in.' The work will be done more quickly, and the men will be available for other uses. I wish I could give you a few of the songs the 'shanty men' sing, but as a great part of the singing is extempore, and only suited to the occasion, one does not remember it unless himself a singer. Many popular tunes are brought into requisition, being often changed by the singers. The words seldom amount to much, unless the singer chances to be witty, when he may make happy allusions to passing events. The tunes are exhilarating and selected on this account. Among the songs, I may mention here, John Brown's body,' 'Dixie,' 'Marching through Georgia,' 'Old Dan Tucker,' with many variations, to which could be added many others. I think an Arctic whaleman would prefer a lively chorus at his windlass to the operas of the best masters. I can recollect when on my first voyage when the work was lagging the captain would hail the cook, with Doctor, where are you? Come! Wake 'em up there!' And the old darky would roll along forward, and opening a capacious mouth start a song and the work at the same time. His songs were few in number, but they were not injured by repetition. I remember a line or two:

        Cook.–– A dandy ship and a dandy crew,
                All.–– Hi ho, my dandy, Oh!

        Cook.–– A dandy mate and skipper, too,
                All.–– Hi ho, my dandy, Oh!
                                (Repeat with variations.)

        Cook.–– Oh, what shall I do for my dandy crew?
                All.–– Hi ho, my dandy, Oh!

        Cook.–– I'll give them wine and brandy, too,
                All.–– Hi ho, my dandy, Oh!”” [p.283]

“The following sailors' chanty for heaving at windlass has been forwarded by Capt. Amos C. Baker*, Clark's Point Light, Massachusetts:

I thought I heard our captain say:
        Good by, fare you well; good by, fare you well;
That to-morrow is our sailing day;
        Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound.

We're homeward bound to New Bedford Town;
        Good by, fare you well; good by, fare you well;
When we get there we will walk around;
        Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound.

Heave away, my boys, heave away;
        Good by, fare you well; good by, fare you well;
To-morrow is our sailing day;
        Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound.

And now our ship is full, my boys;
        Good by, fare you well; good by, fare you well;
We'll think of home and all its joys;
        Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound.

With a flowing sheet we're homeward bound;
        Good by, fare you well; good by, fare you well;
When we get there we can stand around;
        Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound.

Its when you see those New Bedford girls;
        Good by, fare you well; good by, fare you well;
With their bright blue eyes and flowing curls;
        Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound.

When we are paid off, we'll have a good time;
        Good by, fare you well; good by, fare you well;
The sparking of girls and the drinking of wine;
        Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound.

We'll spend our money free when we're on shore;
        Good by, fare you well; good by, fare you well;
And when its all gone we'll to sea for more;
        Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound.” [p.289]
[The Fisheries and Fishery Industries of the United States, sec.5, vol.II, Goode, 1887]
*Captain Amos C. Baker Jr. (1839 – 1911)

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Aug 23 - 02:46 PM

Just for the record, have now completed Bullen's 'Cruise of the Cachelot' out of New Bedford, a seemingly accurate account of a 3-year whaling voyage around the world visiting many exotic ports and catching a variety of whales. Not a single mention of chanties or any singing at work whatsoever. Apart from the 4 mates and captain, and the Englishman Bullen, the crew were Portuguese hardened whalemen, and co-opted landlubbers practically shanghaied, with no experience.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Aug 23 - 05:03 PM

Bullen's "knots per hour" is (are?) too much for my Conchy authentic bone, but that's just me. Either way, not finding a work song mention, for any trade or era, is the norm by a very wide margin.

On the pages, the Cachelot would have a Protestant management (call) and Catholic labour (reply.) Thank the Lord for awkward silences.

Fwiw: Real world Catholic maritimes all dropped their mandatory salty church music at the end of the Inquisition and Napoleonic Wars. Methinks the pirate opera theme of cheerily cosmopolitan, multinational, multilingual, nondenominational shantying crews wouldn't/couldn't even work with an all Irish ensemble.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Aug 23 - 04:31 PM

Chanties aside, I did find the book very interesting and informative. I read it because someone made the claim here that it contained reference to chanties, or even some texts. It did help me with some other research. I looked up Bullen and found a wide range of titles he'd written, and wonder if any of the others contain useful references. Most can be obtained cheaply.
Here's a list. If anyone has read any of them and can confirm any chanty references or texts that would be helpful.
Idylls of the Sea 1899
Log of a Sea Waif 1899
The Men of the Merchant Service 1900
Deep Sea Plundering 1901
Creatures of the Sea 1902
A Whaleman's Wife (novel) 1902
With Christ at Sea 1902
Sea Puritans 1904
Sea-Wrack 1905
A Son of the Sea 1908
Beyond 1909
Fighting the Icebergs 1910
A Bounty Boy 1912
A Sack of Shakings
The Salvage of a Sailor
Sea-Spray

Some of these are collections of stories.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Aug 23 - 02:42 AM

I ran the English keyword list (anchor, capstan, chanty, song, windlass &c &c) through the Bullen bibliography on the same reasoning. Few or no lyrics, just scant mentions. I'm bound to have missed something though:

Log of a Sea Waif ,1899: Covered in the Advent thread starting back in 2011.
Deep Sea Plundering(s,) 1901: "Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound” chanty.
A Whaleman's Wife, 1902: "Away my boys," and a paragraph on why whalemen don't sing in the boats.
A Son of the Sea, 1908: Another "Hurrah, my boys, we're homeward bound”
Beyond, 1909: Chanty mention, ancient sailor song mention.
Fighting the Icebergs, 1910: Happy sailor songs.
A Bounty Boy, 1912: Rowing songs.


No other hits from your list. Not on the list, with a hit:
Frank Brown, Sea Apprentice, 1904: Lusty windlass song but Lasscars no savvy the English.
Call of the Deep: Being Some Further Adventures of Frank Brown, 1907: Sally Brown.
Young Nemesis, 1909: Grim silence instead of the usual singing.

Not on the list, no hits:
Advance Australasia, 1907
The Apostles of the Southeast, 1901
Back to Sunny Seas, 1905
Confessions of a Tradesman, 1908
Denizens of the Deep, 1904
Idylls of the Sea and Other Marine Sketches, 1904
Our Heritage the Sea, 1907
Told in the Dog Watches, 1910
With Christ in Sailor Town, 1901
Young Nemesis, 1909

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Aug 23 - 12:35 PM

Thanks for that, Phil! Considering Bullen's anthology is so highly regarded (and rightly I might add) the actual mentions of them in his other books seem oddly scant. Personally I would have thought that if he was used to hearing chanties he would have referred to them in his books. I'm wondering if he was largely remembering them from his youth.
Here's another possibility, he wasn't that au fait with them although he was aware of their extempore nature and wanted to expose the bulk of what had been published as made up by their anthologists. Just a thought.
Gibb would have a better handle on this.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 23 - 04:59 PM

Quite excited about this one. Came across it quite by chance.

1835
From: A Home Tour through the Manufacturing Districts of England by Sir George Head. 1836
Chapter 15.A Voyage from London to Hull by the Gazelle (steamer)
He describes the docks and river front as he arrives, and then witnesses the arrival of a Greenland whaler and the boys climbing up the rigging to retrieve the garland. As most of you know, unlike the American whalers that tried the blubber for the oil on board, the British ships brought the blubber back and it was tried in the 'Greenland Yards'. He describes the process in great detail.
After witnessing the boys climbing the rigging he goes back to the whaler in the dock the following morning. p246
'The next morning when I repaired to the docks the sailors were busily employed on board the whaler, and merrily singing at the windlass, as barrel after barrel was hoisted upon deck.'

Not only have I no references to singing at shipboard tasks for British whalermen, I have no references to Hull sailors singing at their work at all upto 1900, let alone this early.

I'd be interested to know what Gibb thinks of this.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Aug 23 - 06:27 PM

RE: OP's basic question- Did whalers use work song?
Yes they did.

Didn't see this Nordhoff reference in the usual threads. Note to the pedant: Alongside it might be stevedores, porters, longshoremen &c, and not the whalers.

“...Day after day I dressed myself in my best, and presented myself to some captain or mate to ask for a chance. Day after day I walked the mole, looking longingly at the departing vessels, and listening with sinking heart to the cheerful songs of those who had what I wanted, employment.”
[Whaling and Fishing, Nordhoff, 1855]

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 04:13 PM

This one might be a red herring: Although whaling voyages almost never carried passengers as such so no secondary anecdotal evidence there, one person on board with time on their hands often made anecdotal evidence, the ship's surgeon. Some even wrote relevant poetry.

I have just read a 2003 book which publishes a couple of surgeon journal entries for British whaling voyages in 1831 and 1832, both to Baffin Bay. The following info is more from the author, June Starke, (great granddaughter of the surgeon, George Laing). On page 29 she describes the process of 'tracking' through the ice, i.e., the crew wearing harnesses haul the ship along the edge of the ice.

'If the ice was good they could make about 4 miles an hour as they chanted or sang to the accompaniment of 'tracking pipes'. There is a large body of shanties sung by whalemen to ease such back-breaking tasks. One, the old song "O Logie of Buchan" from the north east coast of Scotland, has a place in George's journal perhaps as his memory of a particular 'tracking' routine.'

This anecdote of the author appears to have been inspired by information from another surgeon's journal as given in a footnote, not Laing's.

'An unnamed surgeon who served on the Hercules of Aberdeen in 1831 writes that during a few days of beautifully serene weather with about 30 sail in company, he enjoyed the experience of ships towing in competition - of hearing the sounds of the men roaring out their shanties, of tracking pipes playing and skippers howling orders from the masthead as they urged their toiling crewmen to greater effort.'
Ref: Journal held at King's College, Aberdeen.

'Lubbock in 'The Arctic Whalers' p56, also records such occasions.'

Whilst I have no doubt about the singing, they certainly didn't in these records use the word 'shanties' and I also doubt very much what they were singing relates to the chanty corpus we know of today. 'Highland Laddie' the possible exception.

BTW the text of Logie O' Buchan whilst very likely from Laing's head is very close to the broadside versions.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 08:27 PM

The ol' chorus helciariorum*. Warping, tracking, cordelling, towpath &c &c maritime work song. Chanty corpus? No lyrics at all is more the norm but it had to be such a down tempo dirge of an antiphon, one doubts it would pass for a chanty.

Also:
Journal of a Voyage of Discovery to the Arctic Regions, 1818, Greely, 1818 (fiddler falls through the ice, ...in the middle of a lively air.)
California and Oregon, Or, Sights in the Gold Region, and Scenes by the Way, Johnson, Thurston, 1853 (upriver w/ a yo heave O.)
Selma, Younghall, The Opal, Vol.IV, No.10, 1854 (more yo heave O plus a bugle!?)
Peter the Whaler: His Early Life, and Adventures in the Arctic Regions and Other Parts of the World, Kingston, 1855 (w/song and laughter…)

Art house Folk. Same general task:
Song of the Volga Boatman – Paul Robeson
All along the shore we run.
Sing our shanty in the sun.


*Google it ;)

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 23 - 06:42 PM

Ornithologist Robert Cushman Murphy sailed on a whaling voyage in 1911. In his account of the voyage, "Logbook for Grace" (1947), he includes the following diary entry for August 19, 1912:

"On the deck of the Daisy, at the other end of the cutting tackle, no less heavy work was going on. Double hawsers ran through the great blocks to the windlass on the top-gallant fo’c’sle, and there, under the eye of the Old Man himself, the greater part of the crew rocked the windlass and hoisted the strip of blubber as it was loosened from the whale. This was at least the cheery part of the business, work that could not be done without song, and, to the accompaniment of squeaking bearings and clicking pawls, the husky chorus rang out:

        Come all ye brave sailors who’re cruising for sparm.
        Come all ye brave seamen who sail round the Horn –
        Our Captain has told us, and we hope it proves true,
        There’s plenty more whales ‘long the coast of Peru.”

A forebitter used as a chantey. Note that the windlass work "could not be done without song."

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,MichaelKM
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 06:10 AM

As I understand it, Hugill's contention was that shanties were not used on ships with large crews for hauling. The examples given here are all for heaving, for which he acknowledged they were used on large-crewed ships.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 07:24 AM

Jon, presumably this is an American whaler? Out of where?

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 01:54 PM

Hugill & crew size: Hugill was born, raised and died in the 20th century. A hundred years ago is book learned history to him too. And Hugill (apparently?) did not include fiddle or fife music in his definition of a "work song." History thought otherwise.

The general document record suggest the need for command and control was more directly proportional to crew size and the likelihood of there being a dedicated, pro song leader (musician) goes up, not down. If it's just part-time singers, there will still be more mates to go with the boatswains, the 'other' song leader job title most often mentioned in the sources.

Hardware didn't come cheap in the colonies. Whalers and songs aside, early era North American ship owners might use over-manning smaller, coastwise vessels as an excuse to eliminate a capstan or windlass altogether.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 02:29 PM

Steve, the American half-brig Daisy generally sailed from New Bedford. Murphy joined her in Barbados for the expedition to South Georgia.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 02:58 PM

That's a crazy co-incidence. One of my research projects concerns a coasting vessel from Yorkshire called a billyboy c1820-1920. I just this week found out a local pierhead painter, Reuben Chappell, sailed on one of these from Yorkshire to Par in Cornwall c1894. Its name, 'Daisy'!

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 04:12 PM

“Whalers of Amagansett,” New York Tribune (Jan. 26, 1885):

“In the good old days of whale-oil lamps and Franklin fire-places, sixty whaling vessels sailed out of Sag Harbor [Long Island] and...all the hardy...crews sang of 'Liverpool Jack' and 'Hanging Johnny.'"

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 11:08 PM

Whalers and Johnny Come Down in a High Low & Blow the Man Down here: Our North Land, Tuttle.
Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo

Tuttle, whalers and Whiskey Johnny is here:
Lyr Add: Whiskey, Johnny

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 05:33 AM

In the letter from William Morris Barnes, above, he tries to recall a song he would hear sung by the cook on his first voyage. *That* particular voyage was not a whaling one.

His first voyage, between Newfoundland and Brazil, was in 1861, as far as I can tell from his autobiography.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 08:27 PM

The ol' chorus helciariorum*. Warping, tracking, cordelling, towpath &c &c maritime work song. Chanty corpus? No lyrics at all is more the norm but it had to be such a down tempo dirge of an antiphon, one doubts it would pass for a chanty.

Also:
Journal of a Voyage of Discovery to the Arctic Regions, 1818, Greely, 1818 (fiddler falls through the ice, ...in the middle of a lively air.)
California and Oregon, Or, Sights in the Gold Region, and Scenes by the Way, Johnson, Thurston, 1853 (upriver w/ a yo heave O.)
Selma, Younghall, The Opal, Vol.IV, No.10, 1854 (more yo heave O plus a bugle!?)
Peter the Whaler: His Early Life, and Adventures in the Arctic Regions and Other Parts of the World, Kingston, 1855 (w/song and laughter…)

Art house Folk. Same general task:
Song of the Volga Boatman – Paul Robeson
All along the shore we run.
Sing our shanty in the sun.


*Google it ;)

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,MichaelKM
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 06:10 AM

As I understand it, Hugill's contention was that shanties were not used on ships with large crews for hauling. The examples given here are all for heaving, for which he acknowledged they were used on large-crewed ships.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 01:54 PM

Hugill & crew size: Hugill was born, raised and died in the 20th century. A hundred years ago is book learned history to him too. And Hugill (apparently?) did not include fiddle or fife music in his definition of a "work song." History thought otherwise.

The general document record suggest the need for command and control was more directly proportional to crew size and the likelihood of there being a dedicated, pro song leader (musician) goes up, not down. If it's just part-time singers, there will still be more mates to go with the boatswains, the 'other' song leader job title most often mentioned in the sources.

Hardware didn't come cheap in the colonies. Whalers and songs aside, early era North American ship owners might use over-manning smaller, coastwise vessels as an excuse to eliminate a capstan or windlass altogether.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 11:08 PM

Whalers and Johnny Come Down in a High Low & Blow the Man Down here: Our North Land, Tuttle.
Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo

Tuttle, whalers and Whiskey Johnny is here:
Lyr Add: Whiskey, Johnny

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 23 - 06:42 PM

Ornithologist Robert Cushman Murphy sailed on a whaling voyage in 1911. In his account of the voyage, "Logbook for Grace" (1947), he includes the following diary entry for August 19, 1912:

"On the deck of the Daisy, at the other end of the cutting tackle, no less heavy work was going on. Double hawsers ran through the great blocks to the windlass on the top-gallant fo’c’sle, and there, under the eye of the Old Man himself, the greater part of the crew rocked the windlass and hoisted the strip of blubber as it was loosened from the whale. This was at least the cheery part of the business, work that could not be done without song, and, to the accompaniment of squeaking bearings and clicking pawls, the husky chorus rang out:

        Come all ye brave sailors who’re cruising for sparm.
        Come all ye brave seamen who sail round the Horn –
        Our Captain has told us, and we hope it proves true,
        There’s plenty more whales ‘long the coast of Peru.”

A forebitter used as a chantey. Note that the windlass work "could not be done without song."

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 02:29 PM

Steve, the American half-brig Daisy generally sailed from New Bedford. Murphy joined her in Barbados for the expedition to South Georgia.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 04:12 PM

“Whalers of Amagansett,” New York Tribune (Jan. 26, 1885):

“In the good old days of whale-oil lamps and Franklin fire-places, sixty whaling vessels sailed out of Sag Harbor [Long Island] and...all the hardy...crews sang of 'Liverpool Jack' and 'Hanging Johnny.'"

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 04:13 PM

This one might be a red herring: Although whaling voyages almost never carried passengers as such so no secondary anecdotal evidence there, one person on board with time on their hands often made anecdotal evidence, the ship's surgeon. Some even wrote relevant poetry.

I have just read a 2003 book which publishes a couple of surgeon journal entries for British whaling voyages in 1831 and 1832, both to Baffin Bay. The following info is more from the author, June Starke, (great granddaughter of the surgeon, George Laing). On page 29 she describes the process of 'tracking' through the ice, i.e., the crew wearing harnesses haul the ship along the edge of the ice.

'If the ice was good they could make about 4 miles an hour as they chanted or sang to the accompaniment of 'tracking pipes'. There is a large body of shanties sung by whalemen to ease such back-breaking tasks. One, the old song "O Logie of Buchan" from the north east coast of Scotland, has a place in George's journal perhaps as his memory of a particular 'tracking' routine.'

This anecdote of the author appears to have been inspired by information from another surgeon's journal as given in a footnote, not Laing's.

'An unnamed surgeon who served on the Hercules of Aberdeen in 1831 writes that during a few days of beautifully serene weather with about 30 sail in company, he enjoyed the experience of ships towing in competition - of hearing the sounds of the men roaring out their shanties, of tracking pipes playing and skippers howling orders from the masthead as they urged their toiling crewmen to greater effort.'
Ref: Journal held at King's College, Aberdeen.

'Lubbock in 'The Arctic Whalers' p56, also records such occasions.'

Whilst I have no doubt about the singing, they certainly didn't in these records use the word 'shanties' and I also doubt very much what they were singing relates to the chanty corpus we know of today. 'Highland Laddie' the possible exception.

BTW the text of Logie O' Buchan whilst very likely from Laing's head is very close to the broadside versions.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 07:24 AM

Jon, presumably this is an American whaler? Out of where?

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 02:58 PM

That's a crazy co-incidence. One of my research projects concerns a coasting vessel from Yorkshire called a billyboy c1820-1920. I just this week found out a local pierhead painter, Reuben Chappell, sailed on one of these from Yorkshire to Par in Cornwall c1894. Its name, 'Daisy'!

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 05:33 AM

In the letter from William Morris Barnes, above, he tries to recall a song he would hear sung by the cook on his first voyage. *That* particular voyage was not a whaling one.

His first voyage, between Newfoundland and Brazil, was in 1861, as far as I can tell from his autobiography.

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Jan 24 - 02:00 AM

c.1849-1854.
“Both ships' companies were at it next morning rafting water, and made the old hills resound to the chorus of the merry song as they bent back to the tugging oar.” [p.223]

“Large hawsers are then rove through these blocks, then through similar ones, on deck, to the windlass, in the forward part of the ship. To the lower blocks are attached ponderous iron hooks, weighing over one hundred pounds each. These hooks are for the purpose of "hooking on" to the blubber, and can be put on and taken off the blocks at pleasure. And now, suspended in stages over the side, the first and second mates, armed with their long spades, begin cutting a hole in the body for the insertion of the hook just above one of the fins. This done, a broad semicircular line is cut round the hole, the hook is inserted, and the main body of the crew, striking up a wild chorus, now commence heaving at the windlass…..

...The heavers forward now resume their song and their work, and, while the one tackle is peeling and hoisting a second strip from the whale, the other is slowly slackened away, and down goes the first strip through the main hatchway right beneath, into an unfurnished parlor called the “blubberroom.”” [pp.59-61]
[Life and Adventure in the South Pacific. By a Roving Printer, 1861]

Details a five year whaling voyage out of New Bedford by two young men on the Emily Morgan 1849-1854. The voyage visits Guam, Hawaiian Islands, Tonga and other Pacific ports. Contains an account of the port town of Lahaina in the mid-1800s. [Amazon Books]

Also: Logbook of the Emily Morgan 1842-1846 (New Bedford whaler)

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Al M
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 08:58 AM

Just an anecdote but when I was introduced to the song "Row On" it was presented as from a crew of whalers
https://www.riseupandsing.org/songs/row

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 11:19 AM

I `ad that Captain Minnow in my cab the other day. `e is well known round The Smoke for `is tales of `is life chasing the whales on the sailing ships. `e is well into `is nineties and joined up as a lad.
`e said, "Ahoy there Jim. Would you take me up to the BBC at Broadcasting `ouse please. I`ve been asked to talk about my whaling experiences on that `istory programme, "Life as it Was"".
I said, "That`s a co-incidence Cap`n. There`s a thread on that Mudcat, at the moment, and it`s all about whalers and shanties. I suppose you know shed loads of `aving spent so much time out there."
`e said, Aye Jim. I do. But I`m not the only one"
I said, "What. You got shipmates still around like you?"
`e said, "No. One day we were on the tail of a big `un, just off Newfoundland. We was in a squall and shortening sail, yanking on the sheets and bawling "Blow the Man Down". Believe it or not the whale popped up `is `ead and said, "Sing us one we all know"!!!


Whaddam I Like???

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 12:59 PM

The Shoals of Herring by Ewen McColl is one o my favourites....https://youtu.be/6Ov81aogaxg?si=DtgFEjLrB2mtbOnL

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 01:02 PM

Another favourite.....https://youtu.be/Nj0phYz38NU?si=v_06xoY2v_KcTgO1

Subject: RE: Whalers and chanteys?
From: Anglo
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 05:18 PM

GUEST,Al M -- Rather than being "from a crew of whalers" the song Row On was presented as a log book entry copied from a Victorian novel. In the novel the song was sung as a warning to the Thames River boatman not to stop and deliver a clandestine letter as there were visitors in the house. To that effect the original last line of the chorus was "Thou must not come tonight" rather than "There's dawn beyond the night." Tim Laycock's lyric change, quite brilliant IMHO, completely changes the thrust of the song.