What's in a tune or even a pub name?

Subject: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 05:17 AM

A certain Linlithgow pub where music and song sessions have been taking place for many years is being forced to change its name as it is considered offensive. However, the pub name has a historical connotation which has nothing to do with anything related either to matters of racism or sexism.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-59494786


We don't know need to discuss this particular incident although I'm still fuming. However, there are many examples of song and tune names in the tradition which have some very unfortunate titles. Most of them, however, have a completely different context and history to how they might appear... e.g. offensive, funny, or even silly.

Of course, we should never deliberately name new tunes, songs, even pubs with the purpose of causing offence and I'd suggest that it's always good idea to avoid titles which might have a double meaning too. However, older names which have absolutely nothing to do with modern day useage of the language should be left alone in my opinion.

Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 05:59 AM

My thoughts are leave it alone. In this particular case, the landlord or brewery (whoever gets the say) could make a much Bigger Thing of that wacky name. For example, in the beeb photo I can see the name but what I don't see is a depiction of a black greyhound (sans testicles!). Of course, I can't see what's on the pub sign, which is edge-on in the photo. A nice, prominent silhouette of such a beast, on the pub wall next to the name, would clear things up straight away, causing amusement rather than offence, and there could be some colourful representation of the history of the name somewhere on a wall inside the pub (maybe there already is).

As for other "of-its-time" issues, I think the only way is to look at each case on its merits. Using makeup to make you look like a black man on the Black And White Minstrel Show is way too far over the line for me. Altering the wording of Ma Curly-headed Baby to substitute the word "coon" is just stupid and laughable, on the other hand (to me, anyway). We should be in the lookout for anything that could deprave or corrupt or threaten, but anything from the past that merely causes raised eyebrows and which can easily be explained to its recipients should be no problem. Of course, drawing the line is another matter.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 06:01 AM

On the lookout!

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 06:17 AM

I'm surprised that the pub chain is considering renaming "The Black Bitch" as "The Black Hound".
If they're going for 'wokery' I would have expected someone to insist on the removal of 'black' as well. (even though, in this case, it clearly refers to a canine)

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 06:32 AM

Steve,

On the pub sign higher up, there is an actual picture of the dog. Also it's on the side of the building too.

The term "Black Bitch" means much more in Linlithgow than the pub itself. It's all to do with the historical legend. Locals proudly call themselves "Black Bitches" meaning natives or residents of Linlithgow.

Also, terms such as "dog" or "hound" can also be offensive to both men and women if used as terms of reference to them. I'll not give examples but I'm sure you can all think of many.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 07:12 AM

Anyone seeing both the pub name and the signs on the walls, who then takes offence, needs a bit of tlc imho (I never do that initialling stuff but I couldn't resist this time!). I think the brewery spokespersons quoted in the article are doolally-tap, frankly.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 07:24 AM

There's a petition on change.org, "Stop The Black Bitch Pub Name Change". I know I'll probably never go to that pub but I've signed it anyway! :-)

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 07:25 AM

There is a jig, among others published in the Goodman collection, the name of which gives rise to misinterpretation. It's called The Black Stripper.

A stripper is a cow that has gone beyond lactation, just to be clear.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 07:53 AM

I've just idly googled Black Boy pub names. There seem to be quite a few. A bit more dodgy, on the face of it, I'd have thought...

There's a big tufty wild plant in Western Australia called Black Boy. When I gently raised the name with a few locals they didn't see anything to get worked up about. I wasn't so sure...

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST,Teefy
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 09:00 AM

I think in the case of something in a public place and quite visible, there is an argument to be made for changing a name if its original meaning has almost entirely fallen out of usage. Then, to your average passerby, the name would only seem offensive. If, as Johnny J says, the phrase is still used in the area and most people who see the sign catch the meaning immediately, it would be silly to change, I think.

Sort of makes me think of a story my high school German teacher told. When she came to the USA as a child, she did a lot of her learning of English from dictionaries and material made in the UK. She asked a classmate to 'pass her a rubber' and people laughed, because here that tends to means condom and not eraser. While that is a much milder example, it is just another way words mean different things place to place. That pub name would be unacceptable where I am, but so would calling a cigarette a fag.

-Teefy

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: G-Force
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 09:16 AM

Our works canteen occasionally used to put on braised faggots. This caused endless amusement amongst the younger or less knowledgeable clientele who had no idea that 'faggot' could mean anything other than 'homosexual'. This was 30-40 years ago. I suppose by now that too would be considered offensive.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM

How widely is the term used in its offensive/derogatory sense in Scotland? I'm in England but have only come across it in literature emanating from the other side of the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 09:30 AM

I also posted a thread re this on The Session but this has now been deleted, presumably because Jeremy thought it wasn't relevant to "the music".

Lots of different views there with many in favour of the name change. Mostly Americans and others who did not understand the local history or were prepared to check it out further.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 09:45 AM

One of the comments on the The Session mentioned that the brewery could have a problem with it on their web site. It's annoying for people to come from outside and tell you a term doesn't mean what everyone locally means by it. Maybe the brewery could have handled it better, perhaps by explaining that outside the local area many people have a problem with it and asking the locals to think about another name.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 09:59 AM

Whatever the brewery decides to name it, I suspect it will continue to be known as the "Black Bitch" locally, until eventually they will change it back because no one recognises it by the new name. Several pubs have changed their names simply to something they felt was more trendy, but they often don't last.

Of course the phrase has racist connotations, but it's all about context. Sometimes words have their literal meaning. Only the irremediably thick would think a pub had been named as a deliberate racist slur or continue to be offended once they knew the story behind it. We shouldn't let ourselves be dictated to by the stupid.

I know of a pub which used to be called "The Gay Dog" (which once meant a man who was a pleasure-seeker, a bit of a ne'er-do-well, probably a womaniser, but who had the charm to get away with it). Recently it became simply "The Dog", but is still referred to as "The Homosexual Hound".

A few years ago Facebook tried to block a pub called the "Black Cock".

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 10:02 AM

Just seen something on Twitter

A poster asks..

"Is there any other pub with the word bitch in the title?"

Someone replies "The Thatcher's Arms"

That made me smile.
:-)

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST,Teefy
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 12:19 PM

Since the thread title also talks about song names, it made me think about that some. Given that, for folk songs, there is sometimes no definitive title, and when there is one, popular songs can come to be known by many names, I would be pretty fine with choosing to change the name of a song. Of course, from an archival standpoint, all names in use, even genuinely offensive ones, should be noted. But calling out a different name when performing or putting a different name in the liner notes seems entirely harmless, as it would not replace the old name.

-Teefy

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 03:56 PM

One of my old haunts up here in Cumbria was the Blackamoor in Wigton. I've thrown many a dart there!
As far as I am aware its always been the 'Blackie' and long may it remain so.
There used to be a boozer in Manchester known as the 'Cunt and Trumpet'.
I wonder what the PC brigade would make of that!

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 04:05 PM

"There used to be a boozer in Manchester known as the 'Cunt and Trumpet'."
What did their sign look like ?

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 05:28 PM

Lovely pub. Myself and the main organiser of our folk festival were invited up for a meal next door them the session in the pub. It was the week before lock down. Lovely bunch of folk at Linlithgow club too. They could do without all this.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 06:20 AM

I used to play regular music (early 70s) in a lovely old pub at Low Moorsley, near Durham city many years ago, caled the 'Blackie Boy'with a sign depicting a smiling black s***bo boy- nobody EVER commented.

Another lovely od pub (long gone, sadly) just off South Shields marketplace was the 'Norfolk and Suffolk'-
It was known locally as the 'Two F**s'

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 11:03 AM

I read a comment elsewhere which asserted that "bitch" was an archaic term now and is only used to refer to dogs by he older generation.

We should now, apparently, stop using this word when referring to female dogs and think of something else.

Wouldn't it be better to stop referring to women, regardless of race or colour as bitches? That would be a better course of action, I'd have thought.

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 12:21 PM

I had to edit the word "bitch" out of Icona Pop's song "I Love It" for our dance teacher who wanted to use the song with her early-teens pupils. I can't remember what I inserted instead! I actually got to like that song after listening to it repetitively and I suggested that the word was hardly going to deprave and corrupt the girls. However, she was nervous of the parents hearing the word in the dance show to follow...

Subject: RE: What's in a tune or even a pub name?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 12:39 PM

I `ad that `istorian and academic, Deff Goel in my cab the other day. `e was just going up the printers to view the first edition of `is book about Kent pubs.
`e said, "Morning Jim. `ere, you and your band. `ave you ever played in "The Restoration" in Sevenoaks?"
I said, "No, and we aint going to either, even if they did do music, which they don`t"
`e said, "Why?"
I said, "Well Deff, it`s like this, We`re all for the trad and what it stands for. "The Black Boy" pub `ad successfully plied it`s trade in Sevenoaks since 1616, we are told. There are at least five theories as to `ow it became named from a story of a black person working in the kitchen, chimney sweep, blacksmithying, Charles 11 who was known as the Black Boy due to `is dark colouring: `oo knows? Anyway, in all these years, there is no recorded instance of anyone being offended by its presence yet Shepperd and Neame, the owner/brewers `ave taken it upon themselves to change it`s name to "The Restoration" after Charles 11`s decree. (Republicans are now offended). Not three quarters of a mile away is "The White `art", soon to be renamed I expect, "The Fair Coloured Animal with `orns". There is a word to describe all this cobblers and its got two "ells" in it!!"


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