BS: Olde Sayings

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 22 - 02:09 PM

Can we do foreign ones? I just learned another way to say You make me sick in French is Tu me sors des yeux (you are coming out of my eyes).

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 May 22 - 01:44 PM

"Couldn't stop a pig in a passage" is the version I know. Anyway...

It's cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey... came from the 18th century British Navy.,,, They had monkeys (square racks made of iron and designed in squares to hold 16 cannon balls). However, when in icy conditions, the iron was subject to shrinkage and the cannon balls rolled off onto the deck. Subsequently, brass monkeys were made which actually worked well..... but the expression, it's enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey was coined.

Utter rubbish, I'm afraid, GSilver! ;-) It's certainly a popular & widely known explanation for the phrase, but it's not remotely true. It's actually a good example of Meself's most 'explanations of common phrases' turn out to be highly dubious...

I can't give you an elegant explanation of the whole why & wherefore of this, because I've not yet completed the entry (I write an occasional "Word of the Day" thing for a group of friends, but have had no time lately to complete any of several nascent pieces). But consider these things...

The more common version of your explanation is the monkey was a brass frame on which cannon balls were piled pyramid fashion, and the difference in the rate of expansion / contraction would result in cannon balls being popped off the frame in cold weather.

First a ship of the "Wooden Walls" era is very much subject to the whims of the weather. You wouldn't store cannon balls in this fashion; they'd quickly be rolling all over the decks, and you don't want 12-, 24-, 36-lb lumps of iron doing THAT! Also relevant is that you don't want iron cannon balls exposed to the elements - they rust (another reason why it wouldn't have been an iron frame; they'd potentially rust themselves together). Gunners actually took the trouble to remove any imperfections on the surface of a ball, as otherwise it might not fly true when fired, or even jam in the barrel & cause the gun to explode.

Second, one gentleman on the net pointed out that if the “monkey” were your dimpled frame (rather than just a square) a yard across, to move a 6” ball 1”, given the relative expansion & contraction of iron & brass, the temperature would have to fall to some -4,000,000 C. Which is going to be tricky to achieve given that Absolute Zero -273.15C is the theoretical zero point of temperature (0 Kelvin), from whence it is not possible to get colder. So physics as well as practicality is against it.

Third, other monkey expressions are scald the throat, singe the hair, melt the nose; freeze the tail, nose, ears, whiskers. The good old OED lacks any reference to the phrase being used in this way. It's entirely possible that the one time popularity of the "Hear / see / speak no evil" ornamental trio of monkeys, usually made of brass, has given precedence to that version of the phrase above the the others. Whilst an amusing tale, historical it most certainly is not!*

* Historically speaking, the RN used shot garlands - wooden planks with holes bored into them; a lot easier & cheaper to make in those days than expensively casting metal...

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 22 - 02:08 PM

I don't remember that one. Another one, a bit cruel, popped up whenever a bandy-legged individual was spotted: "Eee, look at him. He couldn't stop a pig in an entry..."

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 22 - 06:32 AM

Must be our shared background, Steve. I was only thinking of 'foot of our stairs' when I read Sen's post. Was 'Piffy on a rock bun' also part of your childhood vocabulary?

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 22 - 06:00 AM

Well I'll go to t'foot of our stair...

My gran avoided expletives by inserting substitute words. "Bloody hell" became "blood and stomach pills" and "as happy as pigs in shite" became "as happy as pigs in Shudehill." :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 May 22 - 01:40 AM

Here in Norfolk there's no end of amusing old sayings. If one suggests throwing an unwanted item away, it's "Bucket and chuck it", referring to the old 'thunder boxes' (outside toilets with merely a bucket for use)
If something goes wrong, one asks, "Hev the bottom drawped owt?" which refers to a boat in trouble at the coast. (The 'Singing Postman' used this in one of his songs)
And "Dew yew keep a-troshing!" (Keep on threshing) which alludes to the old practice of threshing wheat in a barn to remove the grain. It's used nowadays to mean 'carry on trying'.
I do so love Norfolk!

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Neil D
Date: 13 May 22 - 10:05 PM

The first chapter of Victor Hugo's novel, "Ninety-three", includes a vivid description of the devastation caused on the gun deck of warship when a heavy cannon on a wheeled carriage breaks loose from its chains in rolling seas. Sailors are killed and the ship nearly sunk. It left me in no doubt as to the origin of the term "loose cannon".

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 May 22 - 03:40 PM

Pure Finding, was still in Brewers (1983) but left out of the 20?? C edition (1991)

Anyone who tells you there is no such thing as a Dog Poo Fairy should consult the 1983 edition. It was used to soften leather after it had been tanned in tannic acid. And was a viable trade in the Victorian era. The tannery in Colyford in Devon had a shit pit in the 1950s according to John Lister, organiser of various small festivals in Devon. As he said - "it stank". Bat/pigeon guano is used today, or modern chemicals in developed countries.

And there is a song about it song.mister.red > Pure Finder

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 May 22 - 02:24 PM

It's cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey... came from the 18th century British Navy.,,, They had monkeys (square racks made of iron and designed in squares to hold 16 cannon balls). However, when in icy conditions, the iron was subject to shrinkage and the cannon balls rolled off onto the deck. Subsequently, brass monkeys were made which actually worked well..... but the expression, it's enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey was coined.

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 May 22 - 01:27 PM

Brewer's .... the late great Sir Pterry was prouder than somewhat to be asked to do the foreword to "the millennium edition, 1999". And slap mi diodes and call me Frank, but I nearly wrote "the Y2K edition".

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 22 - 04:20 PM

One man's fish is another man's poisson.

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: meself
Date: 05 May 22 - 03:11 PM

Trouble is, most 'explanations of common phrases' turn out to be highly dubious ....

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 22 - 10:05 AM

cool

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 22 - 09:49 AM

There is a superb book entitled "Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" which has been in print since 1870.

It has a plethora of explanations of common phrases many of which are still in use today.

It is now in it's 20th edition and will grace any bookshelf.

Subject: RE: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 May 22 - 09:36 AM

Adding insult to injury is an old phrase that means jumping on them (the sult of sauté or somersault or assault) when they were already down.

Really means adding injury to injury. Bad form.

Subject: BS: Olde Sayings
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 22 - 09:33 AM

Some common sayings are many centuries olde

'Cat got your tongue?' may go back to ancient Egypt.
The origins of old sayings is sometimes surprising like 'Blow smoke up your ass' was an actual 16 th century resucitation technique.