BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:43 PM

Cheers, Pete. And everything you put in your list is principled. We can ditch all that for expediency in order to win an election (though there will be the delusion when we do win that we won it, whereas the truth will be that the Tories lost it by implosion). But the effect won't last, quite likely not even for one full term. And the Tories know that. We need something better than four years of blaming the Tories for the mess they left us with. With Starmer, we haven't got that, nothing like. In 2028-ish, the Tories will be back. They always come back, and the electorate in this country find it far easier to side with the Tory brand of populism. Whatever we think of Blair, we desperately need to examine what it was that (a) made him win, (b) made him keep winning. Whatever it was, it's blatantly obvious that Starmer hasn't got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:46 PM

After 34 years, most newsagents in Liverpool still won't sell the Sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:57 PM

Dave:
True but the principle remains. The headlines in particular set off the dog whistle reactions of many people and the papers mentioned are expert in setting off racist and other hate reactions

Which headlines? Or can you not quote them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 03:54 AM

Well Nigel the infamous Scum headline has already been mentioned but rather than rely on one that old I skimmed today and the Daily Heil has come up trumps with "secret plot to unravel brexit". The story behind it does not matter one bit because as that line shouts from this morning's newsstands there will be some foaming at the mouth about remoaners and traitors ruining "are cuntry". Why use the term "secret plot" other than to suggest some sort of shady cabal wanting to bring down the government. How can they "unravel" brexit when we have already left? It's all about causing passions to rise and it works with some.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 04:12 AM

Come on Dave. Which bias do you prefer?

The Guardian 11.2.23


Revealed: secret cross-party summit held to confront failings of Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:00 AM

The one you quote is far less inflammatory and more truthful than the one I posted. Which is the point I am making. It is the language of the headlines that do the damage. I also note that the "secret" seems to have been revealed on the 11th by the Guardian yet the Mail is still reporting it as a "secret plot" 2 days later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:06 AM

A lot of those people who comment are regulars, repeating the same views over and over.

I'm glad that doesn't happen here on Mudcat!

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:08 AM

It was 'secret' at the time it happened.

I imagine The Guardian was happy that the meeting happened - more 'proof' that Brexit is not working.

I imagine that The Daily Mail are not happy that the meeting happened - more 'proof' that Brexit is being betrayed.

Meanwhile I am happy the meeting happened as it might result in Brexit going more smoothly. If such a thing is possible of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:10 AM

Your post made me smile Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 06:50 AM

”Your post made me smile Doug.”

And your post made me chuckle, RD! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 07:15 AM

Yes, good to see a sense of humour still runs through these threads at times :-D

I think we are losing the plot a bit though. It was about the press stiring up bad feeling and I believe it was been well and truly proven that it does happen :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 07:30 AM

”I think we are losing the plot a bit though. It was about the press stiring up bad feeling and I believe it was been well and truly proven that it does happen :-)”

I believe you’re right, Dave, despite others’ standard tactic of attempting to pick nits. ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 08:30 AM

All papers tend to pander to their readers interests. None of them want to lose readers or visitors to their click bait pages. All of them.

The vast majority of readers do not share all the views expressed in their paper/website of choice. A lot of readers do like to think that their views are correct and that those who disagree are wrong.

Not everyone will agree with your point of view. Get used to it. Try talking to people who have different views. We do not have to agree about everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 08:32 AM

But there are red lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 11:28 AM

Indeed there are red (or insert your colour of choice) lines. I will engage with others who have different views to mine. I will even talk (for a while) with people who have racist views. I question them about why they hold such views. If they are not willing to engage in conversation I will walk away but not before telling them that I disagree with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 11:40 AM

Rain Dog - My friends and aquaintances include brexiteers, tories, transgenderphobes and many others whose views on some subjects I disagree with but we have far more in common than what seperates us. I would draw the line at hate speech or postings and have serious words with any of my friends who indulged in such practices. I also regularly read editorial and news from both the Mail and the Guardian. But I do draw the line at The Sun ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 11:51 AM

I agree Dave that tory and labour voters have a lot in common. The majority of people in this country probably agree about a lot of things but seem to refuse to recognise that fact.

This thread and previous UK politics threads seem to ignore that fact. I have said before that there seems to be a 'group think' to drive people who have 'right wing' views away. I don't like that behaviour.

It is only a handful of people who post to this thread on a regular basis. I would hope, indeed I do suspect, that their online behaviour is not the same as their behaviour in reallife.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 12:48 PM

As far as I am concerned there is not and never has been any concerted effort to drive anyone away. It is significant though that many with right wing views have been suspended and/or banned for continually using hate speech or trolling other members.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 12:49 PM

Maybe they learn their diplomacy from the gutter press :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 12:56 PM

By and large we have a politically uneducated and politically naive electorate.

Until politics of ALL views are taught in school as a main stream course we will continue to do so.

I would suggest that it suits certain elements within the political spectrum to allow this situation to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 02:39 PM

It depends on who is doing the teaching Raggytash.

Can anyone imagine Steve giving a balanced view of politics? (Granted that he might well dismiss the whole topic as being unscientific)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 02:56 PM

There is a huge difference between someone teaching a topic and someone sounding off on a minority interest Internet forum, Rain Dog. I would never presume to judge the ability of someone to do their job based on random Internet postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 03:51 PM

Spot on, Raggytash. It suits the right to keep the electorate politically ignorant. That works even better in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 03:58 PM

That was a pretty daft post, Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Feb 23 - 04:34 AM

pete sounds fairly sensibly centre ground to me. my own politics come from the late 70s when the popular culture was good music and anti-racist. the anti-thatcher thing was strong and based on humanity and equality and a lively anti culture. All that's happened since has been a gradual and occasionally violent move to the right. now we get the ex-thatcherites giving their opinions as if that was reasonable yet they are far more 'left' than any part of the current government. in my mind (unreconstructed trot) i'd say someone like corbyn represents the sensible, moral and decent centre ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 23 - 12:50 PM

yes and look how Corbyn was vilified by the media, unfortunately no changes to the system are allowed by the rich and the establishment since atlees government, the labour party of the sixties main achievements were liberal reforms such as capital punishment and legality of homosexuality etc

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 23 - 01:11 PM

There are more than enough people to vote for change. They just need convincing!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 05:07 AM

So Jeremy Corbyn will not be allowed to stand as a Labour candidate at the next election.

"...Sir Keir said the party had changed under his leadership and 'we are not going back,, adding that if others did not back him they could leave." [BBC]

Well so much for the broad church then. Starmer campaigned at two general elections to get Corbyn into Downing Street at the same time as all the confected brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism" was boiling away. But now this. The sheer hypocrisy is staggering. The expedient ousting the principled. Ironically, Starmer will be relying on the left to keep their heads down so that he can "win" by Tory default.

I can't see the Tories rescuing themselves before the next election but I can see Starmer being a weak, single-term (or less) prime minister (I nearly said "leader" there, but that wouldn't be the right word). I dearly want to be wrong, but I'm not putting my money on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 05:28 AM

My post about teaching politics was tongue in cheek and was refering to a post Steve made on the 27th Jan.
There are facts and then there is the interpretation of those facts. I imagine that politics taught by someone with left leaning views would be somewhat different from someone who has right leaning views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:06 AM

Have you been a teacher? I've often been in the position of explaining things to children from points of view that I don't necessarily share. It's called being objective and acting with integrity. You have to put both sides in every case. All the teachers I've ever encountered (except for some teachers of religion) have known that the classroom is not the place to proselytise. Hidden in your post is the old reds-under-the-beds scare. It's not justified. Your only alternative is to keep people ignorant, and that's the right-wing position.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:21 AM

(my last post should have begun 'steve' not 'pete')

i see nicola sturgeon has just resigned - honest, decent and principled to the last. she's been the sensible alternative to all the squabbling eejits in westminster for years now, i'll miss her reliability. it's sickening to see starmer's performative hypocrisy in refusing to consider working with the most popular, progressive party and leader in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:41 AM

Maybe Ms Sturgeon is destined to become the next leader of the Labour Party? One can but hope! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:50 AM

Agreed (and I realised that you meant me!)

Apropos of keeping people politically ignorant, I see something of a parallel in our dismal failure for many decades in providing good education for sex and relationships. For years, schools were allowed to get away with avoiding it completely, and all too often it was all about diagrams and the school nurse rolling a condom on to a boiling tube. There are still people who campaign against it, threatening to take their offspring out of the lessons. So what's the damage? Children getting their "information" from the unpoliced internet, that's what, ending up with a very warped notion of what sex is about, girls pressured into giving in to entitled boys with all the bullying and loss of self-esteem that it entails. Pornhub cheerfully filling the vacuum that the education system has pusillanimously created, exploiting the vulnerable for all its worth. The same thing happens when the electorate is kept ignorant. We are made far more vulnerable to the lies and populism with their meretricious and easy attractiveness, helped, of course, by the right-wing press. Seventy or eighty million people voted for Trump, in most cases unknowingly dead against their own interests. We Brits ended up with a lying, cheating charlatan who was raising champagne glasses with his fellow scumbags while the rest of us were kept in our houses away from loved ones.

Good education, whether in politics, relationships or the environment, increases our resilience in the face of attempts to exploit us. Nothing is perfect, and there may be risks, but if we lay the groundwork then leave our teachers to it we will create a generation which will question everything, be far less susceptible to exploitation and which will make far better political choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:54 AM

Well just like the Tories the Labour Party has firmly set its face against letting Scotland decide if it wants to be independent. That's completely wrong-headed in my view, and any coming-together of Sturgeon and Labour is about as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 08:02 AM

It was a joke…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 09:12 AM

Well in the past I've heard laments as to the lack of a coming-together of a progressive alliance which would have the prime focus of getting the Tories out. The Tories seem to have ensured now that we don't need one. But they will get back in, so there's something to think about at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 03:39 PM

i'm hoping that nicola sturgeon will get promoted to be the new manager of Partick Thistle, and that we get promoted in May

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 04:10 PM

Steve:
Well just like the Tories the Labour Party has firmly set its face against letting Scotland decide if it wants to be independent.

They had a referendum, and decided the point, in 2014

How often do you believe the Scottish government should be able to put everything else on hold to have that same referendum? General opinion seems to be that a 'once in a generation' event should take 20-30 years to be repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 04:30 PM

the scots were told so many lies during the referendum - of course the biggest one being you have to vote to stay in the union if you want to stay in the EU. this has been explained so many times - are you even interested in scotland? Given the chance to be a small, progressive independent nation in northern europe, with loads of natural resources instead of chained to a massive , lunatic bully. well, i expect we would all be demanding a referendum every week until enough fearty, tory/unionists dullards change their minds and get the right answer to the simplest of questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 05:36 PM

I am torn on this one. I do think it is up to Scotland to decide, but seeing what untangling 40 odd years of entanglement is like, the consequences of dealing with over 300 years'worth is going to be immense. It is not like India or other countries which gained ndependence because of the shared border, fi ances and - not etirely of course - legal structures. I would favour far more devolved powers to independence, but as I said, I rhink it is really Scotland's decision

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 05:40 PM

"How often do you believe the Scottish government should be able..."

As often as the Scottish government decides. If the Scottish people are annoyed enough at frequent calls for a referendum, they can vote their government out. The Westminster set have got every interest in stopping the vote for their own nefarious reasons. I'd also add that a huge amount has changed since the 2014 vote, including brexit (which the Scots didn't want), grinding austerity, the imposition of a completely disreputable charlatan in Downing Street and the blocking of laws that should have been in the gift of Scottish people to decide.

Yep, that isn't how it is. But that's how it should be.

"...should be able to put everything else on hold..."

You mean, like Cameron and Johnson were "able to put everything else on hold" in order to hold a referendum followed by four years of all-consuming toxicity between the UK and our partners in Europe? I doubt that the Sots would manage that, yet I don't hear you complaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 06:58 PM

Scots

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:15 PM

Amazing how people forget that during the independence referendum the tory s**m warned Scotland that if they left the Union they would lose their EU membership while the lying s***s fails to mention that the corrupt two faced self serving liar johnson who was brought to power by pathetic proverbials who were more concerned about their snouts in the trough.


Every tory voter should be crawling on its hands and knees apologising to everyone in Scotland and the tory party either:

(1) Rehold the independence referendum.
(2) Fully, and unconditionally reinstate our EU membership, apply whatever force is needed to get the EU to obey the UK.
(3) Force the EU to reinstate Scotland's EU membership, thus allowing the rest of the UK to take EU to ECJ for giving one part of the UK preferential treatment over another.

Option (1) is infinitely preferable than UK committing crimes against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:19 PM

end of rant

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:29 PM

From a purely selfish viewpoint I would be upset if Scotland did acheive Independence. It would surely mean England and Wales standing alone, would never see another Labour government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 05:18 AM

I would favour far more devolved powers to independence, but as I said, I rhink it is really Scotland's decision

That, for me, is the worst option. Either one set of laws from Land's end to Jon o'Groats or two separate countries, each free to make their own laws. I don't mind which.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 11:39 AM

Are you quite sure, DC? Scotland already has a (somewhat) separare set of laws and devolution in Holyrood. Are you saying one of your optuons is to scrap all that, to have all rule from Westminster.
Demo max (I believe that is the jargon) would increase the powers of Holyrood, but is a difference of degree, not a completely different system.

I see it as a pragmatic approach as a stepping stone to full independence if that is wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 11:55 AM

"Hidden in your post is the old reds-under-the-beds scare. It's not justified. Your only alternative is to keep people ignorant, and that's the right-wing position."

You could not be further from the truth.

I am not in favour of keeping anyone ignorant. I am not in favour of group think either. Thatsometimes seems to be the case here, where a handful of posters seem unable to understand that others might think differently from them.

Sometimes it is a good idea to walk away from your keyboard and engage with people who don't have the same mindset as yourself.

Life in an echo chamber is not healthy. No matter what your views are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:25 PM

That's a bit rich coming from someone who posted this piece of nastiness:

"It depends on who is doing the teaching Raggytash.

Can anyone imagine Steve giving a balanced view of politics? (Granted that he might well dismiss the whole topic as being unscientific)"

You don't understand that most teachers behave with integrity and believe in balance. I'd suggest that if you don't trust teachers on politics, you shouldn't trust them with science, history or the arts either. Rather than dealing in silly slurs, you'd be better off telling us how you think that good political education could be structured. As you've done two nasty posts close together, perhaps you could walk away from YOUR keyboard while you reflect and come up with your constructive ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:45 PM

Scotland already has a (somewhat) separare set of laws and devolution in Holyrood. Are you saying one of your optuons is to scrap all that, to have all rule from Westminster.

Why should Scotland have devolved powers any more than, say, the Yorkshire and Humber Region, which has about the same population. Greater London has about the same population as Scotland and Wales put together. Separate laws for all the the regions would lead to mayhem.

The other option, to sink or swim on their own, is better than the mish-mash we have now.

DC