Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs

Subject: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: beachcomber
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 12:21 PM

I rem talking to the late, great Bill Keith at a Bluegrass Festival back in the 1980s. He demonstrated those pegs that altered the string's note by a semitone. He was claiming then that they were a Bluegrass "invention". However, lately I read that the Irish Harp had similar pegs. I have seen harpists twist a peg or two when playing and had assumed that they gauged the amount of alteration by repeated use but, perhaps the modern instruments have a type of "Scruggs peg now as well ???

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 12:43 PM

I think Bill claimed to have invented the ones he demonstrated to you and they can be set to tune between two pre-set notes. I think there may be more than one type, the others known as “Scruggs”, rather than “Keith”, pegs.

The only sort I’ve seen on a harp (other than pedals) operate with a lever rather than a knob.

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: cnd
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 07:37 PM

I recall reading something about Keith's pegs, but can't remember exactly where. I'll do some digging and get back to you. Scruggs's detuning banjo pegs (made famous by songs like Earl's Special) was first made as a prototype using, if I recall correctly, surplus vacuum parts! I don't recall if he ever made or licensed them commercially

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 16 Mar 23 - 05:07 AM

(The second post was me) The Keith pegs are a wonder of engineering in a very compact package. A friend of mine bought a used set from the late Pete Sayers. He was having trouble with them and decided they needed servicing. He asked Bill what he shouid do and he simply said to send them back and they’d sort them out for free.

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: cnd
Date: 16 Mar 23 - 06:32 PM

... "Earls' Special" being a rarely-heard unreleased bluegrass song, and not, of course, a mondegreen of Flint Hill Special and Earl's Breakdown .... -__-

I looked through my main bluegrass history books, and they didn't mention anything about Keith's tuners, so I must've read it elsewhere. I'll keep looking.

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Mar 23 - 06:48 PM

Lots of info on Keith tuners at Beacon Banjo. It's run by Bill's son Martin, who also builds some very cool guitars and basses.
A friend had a Lowden with 3 Keith tuners installed and could slip into DADGAD in a
flash, made for a head -heavy instrument though.

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 16 Mar 23 - 07:00 PM

This looks like the described tuners https://www.eaglemusicshop.com/schaller-keith-pattern-tuners-pair

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Mar 23 - 07:07 PM

The story according to BK at beaconbanjo.com. The tuners come into play at top of the 2nd page.

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 17 Mar 23 - 04:59 AM

The ones from Eagle Music are by Schaller and either made under license or knock-offs. The “real” ones are tho ones from Beacon.

My mate with the used ones lost one of the screws, ‘phoned Beacon Banjos and Bill himself answered.

Sorry for going off topic but I was once on the sound desk and Bill was playing his incredible version of Nola. Unusually, he made a mistake and stopped. Some wag in the audience shouted out “Good god, the man’s human!”

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 06:28 AM

The difference between Scruggs and Keith de-tuners is that Scruggs devised rather crude cams on pivots on the peg head, which pushed and released tension on the 2nd and 3rd strings (allowing quick change from open G to open D tuning). Keith refined the process, by designing a peg with internal locks that did the same thing more accurately, and without cluttering or adulterating the instrument’s headstock, plus allowing for the differences between the two strings (b down to a, and g down just a half tone to f#). Of course, the high g string has to be adjusted separately, or just avoided, because you end up with gDF#AD when dropping from gDGBD, so these pegs arguably are more useful to bluegrass players than old timey frailers.

Scruggs famously used his de-tuners on instrumentals such as Earl’s Breakdown (just 2nd string b to a), Flint Hill Special, Foggy Mountain Chimes and Randy Lynn Rag (2nd raising from b to c). Keith famously used his pegs on all four strings to play Auld Lang Syne, without fingering any frets. Guitarists have had similar gizmos, from the tremolo arm on Fender Strats, to Gene Parsons’s internal string bender, and more recently Hotshot tuners, which similarly can be used both for quick re-tuning between songs or for fancy effects whilst actually playing, though many prefer to just use light strings and bend them up a tone or two, willing them back to pitch with strained facial contortions (presumably just in case it doesn’t quite work out?).

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 09:49 AM

I put a Hip Shot on the low E string of the guitar I use to back up tune players which is great for going from Standard tuning to Drop D, and vice versa, on the fly during a tune set.

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: PHJim
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 10:30 PM

Clarence White had two Scruggs/Keith tuners on his Tele. When Marty Stewart bought the guitar, he switched one of the pegs to another string.

Celtic/diatonic harps use a cam device similar to the old Scruggs pegs. I have never seen them used to alter the pitch while the string was sounding.

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 06:18 PM

Thank you all for a very interesting set of replies.

Subject: RE: Tech: Bill Keith's mechanical banjo pegs
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 07:19 PM

Worked with Bill several times, mostly in Switzerland. A great guy, fine musician and friend.