BS: In the event of US China war.

Subject: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 23 - 08:33 PM

Additional preparation for war makes war more inevitable.
In defense of Taiwan initial US losses are expected to be 2 carriers and 20 warships. Also, we expect a possible loss of many satellites including GPS. The fog of war can alter all expectations.
I mark tonight as the initial start of the propaganda to the run-up to war with the Navy war segment on '60 Minutes'.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 23 - 08:34 PM

Go and have a lie down.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 03:31 AM

FFS, Steve, how many times? DON’T. FEED. THE. TROLL.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 06:35 AM

there is a more trollier troll on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 06:46 AM

Look to thyself. Throwaway remarks are easy. Engaging with topics is more challenging.

The opening gambit of this thread might have been scaremongery but I didn't see it as trolling, I must say.

It is absolutely not in China's interests to become embroiled in what would be a proxy war in Europe. Proxy wars last a long time, suck away your resources and wreck your reputation, and China is heavily dependent on the west for trade. While Putin has been quite good at hiding the truth from his own people, he won't hide it from Xi, and Xi will see all too easily what this war has so far done to Russia. Anyway, we'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 07:53 AM

I condensed what American broadcast media is saying about US defense of
Taiwan. Biden has reversed our prior policy in regard to Taiwan.
Xi is in Moscow today posing as a peacekeeper or a 'lethal aid' provider. People with an awareness of geopolitics know Xi sees Taiwan like Putin sees Ukraine. There is the sound of saber rattling at this point but in the event of an invasion of Taiwan, America is preparing for war, make no mistake about it.

Happy 20th anniversary of America invading Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 09:05 AM

”Look to thyself. Throwaway remarks are easy. Engaging with topics is more challenging.”

Throwaway remarks? You mean like “Go and have a lie down”? People in glasshouses, yadda yadda.

For a ‘clever’ bloke, you take Don’s bait very easily, don’t you? Almost as though you can’t help yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 10:16 AM

What of the trade issues, or Chinese holdings in the US like US treasury notes and farmland, and our history of internment camps?

If there is one thing our last Iraq war demonstrates, is that going headlong to war without an understanding of all the factors, cultural and otherwise is something that America did and could do again.

The One China policy was supposed to take a hundred years in Hong Kong and Taiwan but Xi is in a hurry. His build-up to war is a reality including building military Islands in the South China Sea.

I am not an isolationist but I am not for war.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 10:34 AM

It's a topic well worth discussing. The opening post was plainly not a troll post, John, and he wasn't baiting. Do read it again. It was, in my view, unnecessarily scaremongering, and I've addressed that. So far, you have posted to the thread twice and contributed nothing.

"If there is one thing our last Iraq war demonstrates, is that going headlong to war without an understanding of all the factors, cultural and otherwise is something that America did and could do again."

I agree with this though I can't see a war coming on Biden's watch (big caveat there obviously). If Xi invades Taiwan it will cost China far more than it will gain. Russia going into Afghanistan and Ukraine has cost Russia far more than it has gained. The massive problem here is that both Xi and Putin are experts at doing the one thing that you can't do very well in open democracies, that is, hiding the truth about the impact on your own country from your people. Clamping down on dissent and censoring the internet are big parts of that, but the world is getting more and more leaky as time goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 11:49 AM

There won't be a war, at least there won't be a shooting war, between the US and China. An economic war maybe (of course it could be said that they are already involved in an economic war), but Russia, China, and the US are all too shit-scared of each other's nuclear capabilities to engage in a military war.

Don's post was, as usual, bait to hook in his usual target. And it worked - as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 03:11 PM

It absolutely was not.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 03:16 PM

The trouble is, Steve, you reacted as if it absolutely was.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 04:25 PM

No I didn't! I reacted the way I did because I thought that his apocalyptic scaremongering was way over the top. The opening post contained no baiting and no trolling. It was directed at no-one and nothing apart from the ether. The thing with you and John is that you are not discussing the thread topic. It is a topic well worth discussing. So whaddya think, Doug? Go on, give it a shot! At least John did, even though he was wrong. That's life!

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 05:56 PM

Steve, if you thought that it was scaremongering, then that's what you should have said in your first post, rather than posting a somewhat snide comment.

OK, seeing as you asked, here are my first thoughts on the matter (but please note, I have not given it deep consideration):

I tend to agree with BWM that there will not be a direct shooting was between the US and China. More likely would be a proxy war where each sides provides the resources for a third party country to be ripped apart. Both sides would feel justified that they were 'helping' the victims to resist an aggressor. Who the victims will be, remains to be seen.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 06:33 PM

Which is what I said ages ago. Well done for catching up. I hope you don't think that was a snide remark. I look forward to your sharp reaction to Donuel's next snide remark. You won't have to wait for long, I assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 07:09 PM

I suspect that the US Navy, which will bear the brunt of a Chinese confrontation, is feeling unprepared and is angling for public support to spur ship production and enlistment. 60 Minutes is a foremost American news segment broadcast on Sunday nights which is highly influential. The call for war is still far away and is limited to expert pro-con media discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 07:35 PM

The biggest nations on earth have avoided military confrontations with each other since WW2. They prefer proxy wars, or cold wars, or standoffs. But it will take just one idiot...

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 09:02 PM

The biggest difference between an Iraq war and China is that there is no question involving WMDs

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 10:01 PM

If by WMDs you mean nuclear weapons, it's quite instructive to contemplate why:

India and Pakistan have never used them against each other

Thatcher never used them against Argentina

Israel has never used them against its surrounding "enemies"

The US has never used them in Vietnam or Central America

Russia has never used them against Afghanistan or Ukraine

They were never used by anyone in all the decades of the Cold War.

A good starting point would be to consider the world's recoil in disgust from the two bombs dropped on Japanese civilians. After that, you can talk about deterrence, though the main element of that to me would be that the nuclear game would not be worth the candle, rather than the direct fear of the shock and awe. Any leader inclined to indulge would be in mortal risk of destroying his own country as well as himself and his regime.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 05:28 AM

It's a BFD to use WMD for MAD.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 06:23 AM

Why not try speaking English.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 08:57 AM

Government speech is often all acronyms,

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 09:35 AM

Erudite English speakers know what "acronym" means. You don't.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 09:38 AM

”The thing with you and John is that you are not discussing the thread topic. It is a topic well worth discussing.”

The thing with Doug and I is that we’re not obsessed with Donuel, or with constantly trying to publicly demonstrate our intellectual superiority over him. We see him for what he is, and we do the adult thing of ignoring him.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 09:41 AM

Well it's refreshing that you're not obsessed with wanting to discuss this serious topic!

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 09:55 AM

And it’s typical of you that you love pointing out what you perceive as others’ faults and weaknesses, but you can never acknowledge your own, even those staring you in the face.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 10:06 AM

…And as far as ‘wanting to discuss this serious topic’, I’ve already stated my position in my post of 20 Mar 23 - 11:49 AM. Unlike some, I don’t feel any need to go over and over it in long, ranty, preachy posts.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 10:14 AM

I don't think Steve says what he perceives, he often deceives.

The US Navy is complaining that Chinese jets are harassing US planes over international waters in an unprofessional and aggressive manner.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 10:25 AM

What you see is what you get, Donuel. I express my thoughts in plain and straightforward English at all times. Your word-twisting and obscurantism, on the other hand, are the very tools of deception. John, the irony with you is that you are spending a lot more energy in this thread rising to what to you see as bait than you do for discussing the thread topic. If it bores you so, you have options, old chap!

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 10:34 AM

Popular Acronyms...


KISS my TASER

RADAR PIN

NASA SCUBA FUBAR

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 11:36 AM

Xi Jinping Vows “Great Wall of Steel”

In the first speech of his new presidential term, Chinese leader Xi Jinping promised that he would strengthen China’s defenses and make its military a “great wall of steel.”

“[We must] build the People’s Liberation Army into a great wall of steel that effectively safeguards national sovereignty, security, and development interests,” he told the National People’s Congress.

“The Chinese people have become the masters of their own destiny,” Xi added. “The great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation has entered an irreversible historical process.”

Foriegn Policy.com

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 12:57 PM

Well they certainly have enough steel, made very cheaply due to the millions of tons of iron ore they buy, scraped up from the Western Australian outback. I mean, who cares about a bit of smelting and, well, it's only useless old desert anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Mar 23 - 03:11 AM

'great wall of steel', I suppose is a takeoff of 'the iron curtain.'

The potentiality that concerns me is that someone will try sneaking in a just a small tactical nuclear blast, just to see how or if the world will react.

How WOULD the USA react if Russia, for instance, set off a small one in some mostly deserted area? They could do that with the accompanying argument that they are gathering data.

Would the US consider that provocative enough to respond in kind?

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 23 - 06:48 AM

Well we set off plenty of small (and not so small) ones in deserted areas in times past. I don't think many people today think that was a great idea. The UK is upping the ante by supplying spent shells containing uranium to Ukraine. Also not a good idea. That could plant the notion in the wrong kinds of brains that dirty bombs are OK, for example. This is turning into a proxy war in many regards. My dad always used to say that we needed Vietnam because it was the world's "safety valve." I think there's a lot of danger in that attitude, let alone a loss of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 Mar 23 - 11:30 AM

> supplying spent shells containing uranium to Ukraine

Point of order: they're shells tipped with depleted uranium, which is rather heavy and capable of taking a wickedly sharp edge. Good for piercing high-grade armour, and (sadly) for yielding cries of "Argh! Nuclear" from Kremlin spinmeisters.

I can remember when Magnetic Resonance Imaging was called "Nuclear Magnetic Resonance", and myself getting frightened by the N word, despite being in the science trade.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 23 - 11:47 AM

When I was young in Harvard Square I would discuss real time MRI development with a researcher. I forget her name.

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 Mar 23 - 12:10 PM

Mansfield :-) ?

Subject: RE: BS: In the event of US China war.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 23 - 12:31 PM

I stand corrected (couldn't refind the piece I read it in) but I think the point still stands. Cheers.