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BS: Language Pet Peeves part II

Thompson 12 Jan 24 - 06:33 PM
meself 12 Jan 24 - 09:02 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 24 - 02:41 PM
Mrrzy 13 Jan 24 - 06:46 PM
MaJoC the Filk 14 Jan 24 - 11:37 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 24 - 12:05 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 24 - 12:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 24 - 12:59 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 24 - 02:08 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jan 24 - 02:40 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 24 - 04:19 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Jan 24 - 02:59 AM
Stilly River Sage 15 Jan 24 - 06:48 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Jan 24 - 07:00 AM
Thompson 15 Jan 24 - 08:09 AM
Mrrzy 15 Jan 24 - 10:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jan 24 - 01:54 PM
leeneia 16 Jan 24 - 01:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jan 24 - 02:03 PM
Mrrzy 16 Jan 24 - 02:22 PM
Mrrzy 17 Jan 24 - 09:52 AM
meself 17 Jan 24 - 10:51 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Jan 24 - 11:32 AM
Thompson 17 Jan 24 - 01:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jan 24 - 01:52 PM
Rain Dog 17 Jan 24 - 04:12 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Jan 24 - 05:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jan 24 - 05:12 PM
Doug Chadwick 17 Jan 24 - 05:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jan 24 - 06:38 PM
Doug Chadwick 17 Jan 24 - 06:50 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Jan 24 - 02:58 AM
Joe_F 18 Jan 24 - 05:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jan 24 - 06:04 PM
Mrrzy 19 Jan 24 - 10:01 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Jan 24 - 10:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jan 24 - 10:47 AM
Stilly River Sage 19 Jan 24 - 11:16 AM
meself 19 Jan 24 - 11:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jan 24 - 11:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 24 - 04:30 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jan 24 - 09:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 20 Jan 24 - 10:23 AM
Lighter 20 Jan 24 - 10:57 AM
MaJoC the Filk 21 Jan 24 - 07:43 AM
meself 21 Jan 24 - 08:50 PM
MaJoC the Filk 22 Jan 24 - 10:01 AM
Thompson 23 Jan 24 - 06:44 AM
Thompson 23 Jan 24 - 07:27 AM
MaJoC the Filk 23 Jan 24 - 11:08 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jan 24 - 06:33 PM

Delighted: the electricity's gone out again


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 12 Jan 24 - 09:02 PM

The term 'pseudo-intellectual' emerged in the '60s or '70s, or such is my impression. It is enjoying a second life, or extended life, on the internet, where it is invariably used to denigrate an intellectual whose views the user of the term objects to. What bugs me about it is the implication that the user has some basis for judging the authenticity of intellectuals, and respects 'real' intellectuals, when it is safe to assume that in fact the user respects only those 'intellectuals' - real or pseudo- - who share the user's views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 02:41 PM

Reference to anyone at all as an "intellectual" is one of my pet peeves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 06:46 PM

Eschew obfuscation?

Jus is just that. Meat juice. No flour no wine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 11:37 AM

Just seen quoted in an article about how Musk is trashing Twitter (or X, or whatever it's called this week):

You're really creating a bit of a perfect storm.

That's on a par with "relatively unique" (and sim perversions) or "a teensy-weensy little bit pregnant". Arghissimo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 12:05 PM

We might not like unique-qualified but, er, I think it's OK, along with the modern "liberal" use of decimate and literally. Language should be about wot people speak, not wot the grammar police say.

As for this damned jus saga, this side of the great divide we make jus (if we really must, and even if we do we try to not call it "jus" unless we're Hyacinth Bucket) with beef stock, red wine, shallots and herbs, boil it all to death, strain it, boil it some more and add butter. There you go. Jus. And don't make me type that ridiculous word again. What's wrong with gravy anyway!


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 12:07 PM

As for this: "a teensy-weensy little bit pregnant," that's just as bad as "heavily pregnant." What's wrong with "great with child"??


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 12:59 PM

"Jus is just that. Meat juice. No flour no wine"

Why not just call it meat juice then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 02:08 PM

"Meat juice" sounds incredibly unappetising to me, and I'm a confirmed carnivore. "A succulent steak" is another expression I find off-putting. Makes it sound squelchy and raw...


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 02:40 PM

”Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 12:05 PM

We might not like unique-qualified but, er, I think it's OK, along with the modern "liberal" use of decimate and literally. Language should be about wot people speak, not wot the grammar police say.”


I’ve saved that gem, to be brought out every time you - a leading, and noisy, member of the aforementioned ‘grammar police’ - berate anyone for using ‘albeit’, ‘intellectual’, ‘prior to’, ‘going forward’, or any other of the many perfectly understandable expressions you repeatedly bitch about ad bloody nauseam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 04:19 PM

Language is a many-faceted thing. Choice of words or expressions to use isn't at all the same thing as grammar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 24 - 02:59 AM

Something I’ve noticed many times during my almost 77 years on this Earth is the way those who have a habit of handing out the shit, tend to lose their own shit very easily and copiously when someone stands up to them and their bullying, know-it-all ways.

This is my last post on this thread, Maggie. Your choice whether to leave it here or delete it, I have no strong feelings either way. I’ll stick to the ‘Good News’ thread, where the air smells a lot nicer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jan 24 - 06:48 AM

Several posts were deleted - I congratulated you on pulling that rabbit out of your hat ("hoist with his own petard") and his response continued to be inappropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 24 - 07:00 AM

Thanks Maggie, I saw your ‘hoist with his own petard’ post, but nothing after that. I’m keeping away from this thread now, you have enough to do without having to censor the loud-mouths. Apologies for stirring up the hornet’s nest. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Jan 24 - 08:09 AM

Not so great with child: morning sickness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jan 24 - 10:16 AM

That is precisely why meat juice is called jus, Steve.

Similar to beef, mutton, and pork. The French for what it is is more appetizing than the English for what it is, to English speakers.

Do those count as euphemisms?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 24 - 01:54 PM

I just drove through Keighley and spotted one of my pet peeves - Hijacking everyday terms to mean something else! 'Gay' is a lost cause now of course and the meaning has become what it is but 'market' seems to be next on the list. Every other shop seems to be a 'mini market' or a 'fresh market' or some such. They are no such thing! Markets are a specific type of trade. These new 'markets' are just shops trying to cash in on the idea that markets are more appealing. Stop it!

Catching up on this thread though and I noticed an even worse and potentially dangerous one. The mis-use of the term 'bully'. Bullying is nasty and ruins lives yet everyone who has a disagreement seems to accuse their opponent of bullying. Bullying is constant abuse of the victim or victims by one or more people and affects the lives of victims and their families. I know from experience how nasty it is. There is no bullying on here. Disagreements and sometimes personal abuse but not to the level that could ever be termed bullying. Keep the term bully for those who go all out to victimise someone else. Watering it down by using it as it was used above does the real victims no good at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Jan 24 - 01:34 PM

I've thought about bullying a lot. Here are my elements of bullying so far:

bully wants something he (or she, of course) is not entitled to

bully objects to something that is not really a problem

bully charges in fast, too fast for you to collect your thoughts and defend yourself

bully often is a bigger person, is used to dominating others with his size

bully is too loud

kids may bully outright to be mean, but adults learn to cloak their bullying in claims of being more proper, honorable, discreet, etc.

bully seems to know unspoken behavioral standards that other people don't know about

bully stands too close, invades your space

bully implies that other people are ridiculing you behind your back

bully may be conscious of the audience, making you look inefficient in front of the boss or making you look foolish in the presence of that certain pretty girl

if you come back at him with a good defense, the bully suddenly has more important business elsewhere

bully leaves fast, often slamming the door

I suspect a lot of people are bullies in their teens and eventually improve. Either their minds mature or they wise up and realize that they have no friends and no future. My brother was a bully, but he changed when he topped out at 5'6".
===============
P.G. Wodehouse made a brilliant portrait of a bully when he invented Lady Constance Keeble of Blandings Castle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 24 - 02:03 PM

Thanks leeneia but beside the point really. My peeve is that over (mis)use of the term is causing it to become meaningless


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jan 24 - 02:22 PM

I agree with Market not being the same as --dare I say not synonymous to-- Store or Shop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 09:52 AM

Aaargh! Princess hospitalizd after planned abdominal surgery.

Surgery performed at home?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 10:51 AM

Item from TV news last night: "China's population declines as deaths jump." Maybe I'm too visual a thinker, but I find the image of deaths 'jumping' decidedly weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 11:32 AM

Dave, I think the difference in how the term is interpreted may depend on which side of the pond one is on. I find Leeneia's list to fit my understanding of the word "bully" as it is used in the US. Synonyms would be intimidator, browbeater, and I would add scold. We're talking about an online environment, not in person where some of the words with a more dense meaning come into play (tyrant, persecutor, thug, heavy, ruffian, etc.)

Euphemisms will abound surrounding Kate's surgery. There are so many possibilities, not just the usual "lady parts." They said this morning she hasn't been seen in public since xmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 01:44 PM

I don't mind market - it has different meanings in America (big shop) and Europe (road full of artisans selling fresh food).
Bully used to be a term meaning excellent around the turn of the 19/20 century.
Crikey but it's icy here; we're hovering between -5º and 0º. I have a big hooded fleecy cloak thing but it only covers the top half, and it's the bottom half that freezes most.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 01:52 PM

Market here tends to be a specific area with stalls where independent traders can set up.

Bloomin' icy here too. I ended up flat on my back on our drive earlier! OK but for a sore back and bruised ego :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 04:12 PM

We can all choose to ignore posts from those who annoy us.

Some seem to find that hard to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 05:09 PM

A regular language debate in my family that played out again at lunch:

I mention an herbal tea with mint and fennel.
"It's really a tisane, not tea."
"You know what I mean." (And I'm the English major!)

Camellia sinensis is the plant that is grown and picked at so many stages and elevations to create many grades of black tea or green tea, oolong, or white tea. Chai. (If you say "chai tea" it is tea tea, too much tea!) Tea being synonymous with the Camellia s. product. Herbal teas don't contain Camellia anything, so technically are a tisane or an infusion. They aren't made with tea leaves.

But it's too late for that argument to win. Packages around the world say "herbal tea" and note "no caffeine" and have no Camellia in them. The "brand" tea isn't a proprietary eponym like Kleenex or Bandaid or Xerox or Aspirin, tea these days means just about any cup of hot water in which leaves or herbs are soaked to create a drink that isn't coffee.

Off my soap box. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 05:12 PM

Why have they got euphoniums surrounding Kate's surgery? I would have thought that they would not want a fuss

Oh, hang on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 05:15 PM

DtG,
Do you accept 'supermarket' as a valid name for a large store where customers select items from the shelves and then pay for them at a checkout? If so, then why shouldn't a small shop which uses the same system describe itself as a mini-market?

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 06:38 PM

It's a peeve, Doug. It doesn't have to be rational.

Stilly. In my (limited) experience of the USA, they generally cannot make tea there anyway. A cup of warm water with a tea bag to dunk in it just isn't tea :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 06:50 PM

It doesn't have to be rational.

Just pointing it out! It could reduce the stress in your life if you were able to come to terms with it.
;-)

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 24 - 02:58 AM

”Stilly. In my (limited) experience of the USA, they generally cannot make tea there anyway. A cup of warm water with a tea bag to dunk in it just isn't tea :-)”

Well at least we can agree on that, Dave! And what they call ‘coffee’ is like watter bewitched when compared with Italian and French coffee… ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Jan 24 - 05:58 PM

Doug Chadwick: I was once in a store such as you describe, which called itself, not a mini-market, but a superette. I admired that: an augmentative prefix, a diminutive suffix, and nothing in between! One would expect such a word to cancel itself out, perhaps with a soft click.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 24 - 06:04 PM

I'm not a coffee drinker, and when I make tea I brew loose tea, although these days it is a somewhat disappointing brew since I've had to give up caffeine.

In a change of peeves, I find some of the news channels on cable to overuse the term "breaking news" - if I leave the channel on in the background and hear three different program hosts discuss the exact same "breaking news" it is long since "breaking" and is now just "news."


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 10:01 AM

To me, a supermarket is a store, not a market! Who has to make sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 10:32 AM

Well large supermarkets are also called ‘Superstores’ here in the UK. Prolly in the US too??


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 10:47 AM

In addition it is patently obvious that Supermarkets are not markets but if you see something advertised as a market you could end up traveling to see an array of independent traders and finding a dingy corner shop with a few baskets of mouldy veg outside!


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 11:16 AM

On my side of town it isn't just English, so I shop in grocery stores and supermercados. The huge stores like Target and Walmart are more than groceries, so they tend to call themselves "super centers." Costco and Sam's Club are warehouse stores. So it looks like the closest to "market" around here is the mercado. Most stores are known by name, so I would never say "I'm going to the supermarket" - it's "I'm going to Kroger" (or Albertson or Aldi or Fiesta).


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 11:19 AM

"Breaking News" used to be reserved for some supposedly exciting news story that was just "breaking". Then it was used for any "breaking" news story. Now "breaking news" means ... news.

A few other, um - "developments": used to be a "coup" required completion to be such, but apparently it is too much work to say "attempted coup" or "failed coup" (OTOH, I'm happy to go along with "coup" in place of "coup d'etat", so who am I to gripe?); an "elite" once was a certain group or class of people - now it's an individual member of such a group or class; a "conspiracy theory" has become "a conspiracy".... I blame all those TV political commentators are so busy trying to talk over each other that they have no time to think about what their words actually mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 11:53 AM

Coup de grace is French for mow the lawn...


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 24 - 04:30 AM

When did useful hints and tips become "life hacks"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 24 - 09:22 AM

It’s tough for us Boomers trying to keep up with Gen-Z, Dave! :-0


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 24 - 10:23 AM

I guess "useful hints" sounds too 1950s, but then everything that existed back then is now the hugely popular Midcentury Modern (used to be referred to as Danish Modern as far as furniture.)

What goes around comes around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Jan 24 - 10:57 AM

Then there's "as far as X" in place of "as far as X is concerned."


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jan 24 - 07:43 AM

DtG: When did useful hints and tips become "life hacks"?

When the whizz kids of the City of London let their work jargon spill out in coffee houses. Personally, as someone who used to code for a living (often having to butcher somebody else's kludgeware* into something sensible in the process), I'm glad the positive senses of "hack" are being noticed again.

* Kluge: a crock which works. The English spell it as "kludge", which comes from "kludgie" -> midden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 21 Jan 24 - 08:50 PM

Heard on the evening news, re: an immigrant healthcare worker: "She got an undergraduate degree in Nursing and a Ph.D. in Africa."


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 22 Jan 24 - 10:01 AM

New peeve: the abusage of "leverage", esp in non-financial contexts*. It's easy to spot when English reporters have been miseducated by listening to too many Left-Pondian financial experts, as they pronounce it "levverage", rather than "leeverage" as Dr Johnson intended.

* In financial jargon, it very specifically refers to buying a firm with its own debt, eg the foghorn formerly known as Twitter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Jan 24 - 06:44 AM

Surely leverage is when you let the hare sit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Jan 24 - 07:27 AM

"At this point in time…" What's wrong with "Now…"


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 Jan 24 - 11:08 AM

> Surely leverage is when you let the hare sit?

Nah: that's the levee, but only if it's standing up.


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