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'You're so vain' revisted

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GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Feb 24 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Is 11 Feb 24 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 06:50 AM
MaJoC the Filk 11 Feb 24 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,Someone Sensible 11 Feb 24 - 07:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 24 - 07:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 24 - 07:19 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Feb 24 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Someone Sensible 11 Feb 24 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Someone Sensible 11 Feb 24 - 08:14 AM
gillymor 11 Feb 24 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 08:23 AM
gillymor 11 Feb 24 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Someone Sensible 11 Feb 24 - 08:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 24 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Tunesmth 11 Feb 24 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 08:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 24 - 08:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 24 - 08:50 AM
gillymor 11 Feb 24 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,Someone Sensible 11 Feb 24 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Someone Sensible 11 Feb 24 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 09:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 24 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Feb 24 - 09:32 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Feb 24 - 09:35 AM
Stilly River Sage 11 Feb 24 - 09:42 AM
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Subject: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 04:18 AM

I would argue that the title - and main thrust - of this song doesn’t make sense!

The first verse paints a picture of a well dressed - flamboyant, even - man who is
at a party and who is clearly very popular with the girls. Now, the only real clue to the man being vain, in any way, is the line “You had one eye on the mirror as you watched yourself gavotte [ dancing]”.

Now, that’s a bit thin. How many people have checked themselves out in
a mirror at a party, social event or whatever without being particularly “vain”.

In subsequent verses we learn more about the man. He’s rich with a private jet, and had a racehorse that won at Saratoga...and he also went to Nova Scotia to watch a total eclipse of the sun.

Now, that is quite a bit of information, and so I would argue that the man, in question, shouldn’t be accused of being vain for thinking that the song is about him because it is oh so obviously about him. With that in mind, a better title for the song would be “ You’d be stupid if you didn’t think this song was about you”.

Indeed, the song can be easily viewed as the vindictive outburst of a rejected woman.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 05:27 AM

Or not.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 06:38 AM

Nick, what does your "or not" refer you. Please expand in your far too brief answer.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Is
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 06:42 AM

Tunesmith, have you heard of irony?


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 06:50 AM

Guest,Is, I've heard this "irony and double irony" nonsense thrown up before but nobody seems to be able to explain what that means in this context. Want to have a go?


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 06:54 AM

I thought it was "one eye on the mirror as you watched yourself go by", but (unlike the target of the song) I'm willing to be corrected.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 07:05 AM

MaJoC the Filk, Yes, I always heard it as "go by" but it does appear that gavotte is the correct word, and of course gavotte does rhyme with yacht and apricot.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Someone Sensible
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 07:09 AM

How about getting it from the horse's mouth instead of guessing what the writer's intentions are?

Deconstructing Carly Simon’s “You’re So Vain”

To paraphrase the OP

I would argue that the main thrust of this thread doesn’t make sense.

Indeed, the thread can be easily viewed as the vindictive outburst of someone who dislikes the feminism displayed in the song and has something against Carly Simon

If you are indeed a Tunesmith, come back when you have written something as clever.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 07:18 AM

Well I never!

Like the others, I thought it was go by. And that the scarf was Africa, The actual words are

"You walked into the party
Like you were walkin' onto a yacht
Your hat strategically dipped below one eye
Your scarf it was apricot
You had one eye in the mirror
As you watched yourself gavotte"

So, yes, yacht, apricot, gavotte. It all rhymes! Which is a shame as I liked it more when it didn't :-D


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 07:19 AM

Sorry - scarf it was AfricaN


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 07:26 AM

I thought it was “Your hair strategically dipped…” and, like others “As you watched yourself go by. But I did know it was ‘apricot’, with that strange, flat-‘a’ American pronunciation!

And I wonder if the OP understands the concepts of irony and sarcasm? Carly Simon certainly did.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 07:31 AM

GUEST,Someone Sensible, you really must change your name because there is nothing sensible about your comments. For starters, Carly's interview doesn't help at all. I am basing my comments on the lyrical contents of the song, and that's all the listening pubic can do. And, of course the lyrics are dreadfully flawed!


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Someone Sensible
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:00 AM

Fine. You beleive that the lyrics are dreadfully flawed. Give us your rewrite and let us know how far it gets up the charts. Perhaps you should change your name. Those who can write good songs, do. Those who cant, criticise those who can.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:04 AM

Someone sensib;e, Oh dear, you're not trying to say that because the song was a huge hit that it can't be dreadfully flawed. Are you?


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:09 AM

Backwoodsman. When discussing this song, "irony and double irony" always gets thrown up but when anyone is challenged to explain the "irony" connection, the silence is deafening. I wonder why that is?


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Someone Sensible
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:14 AM

No, I am saying that you can do no better and, given that you can't even understand the song, we can discount your opinions as utter rubbish.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:16 AM

...dancing about architecture.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:19 AM

,Someone Sensible Oh dear, please explain why I don't understand the song. Just saying that I'm wrong simply won't do. Where for example, is the flaw in my argument? AND, I bet you are not up to the task!


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:23 AM

gillymor. I've added you to the long list of people who criticise my logic in some way or other but haven't got anything sensible to say about the topic at hand. It's all very disappointing.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:30 AM

OMG, I'm on the list!


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Someone Sensible
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:30 AM

You don't understand the song because you don't get irony or sarcasm. That is main flaw in your argument. The interview with Carly Simon explains everything and you don't seem to understand that either. There is no point in anyone on here trying to explain anything else if Simon herself doesn't do it. Either spit out your dummy again or go and ask your mum.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:32 AM

I completely disagree with the OP and fully understand that there is no point to any of this.

Can I be on the list too? :-D


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmth
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:36 AM

Oh dear, again, PLEASE explain your constant reference to irony! You can't keep bringing it up without explaining - clearly - the ironic content of the lyrics.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:42 AM

Dave the Gnome oh dear, Now, we are discussing an iconic song which I say is dreadfully flawed. Now, you can dismiss the topic as being irrelevant ( which would be very strange ) or you could man-up and try to give even the resemblance of a sensible answer to the points that I have laid out.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:47 AM

From Merriam Webster

irony
noun
iro·?ny 'i-r?-ne
also
'i(-?)r-ne
plural ironies
Synonyms of irony
1
a
: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
b
: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony
c
: an ironic expression or utterance
2
a(1)
: incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
(2)
: an event or result marked by such incongruity
b
: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play

called also dramatic irony
3
: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning

called also Socratic irony


Tunesmith. See 1b and ask yourself whether the protagonist actualy did gavotte past the mirror then see 2b and wonder whether he saw himself as the narrotor saw him. Beyond that, I have nothing to add apart from I dislike critics who have nothing positive to say :-(


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:50 AM

One thing has now become obvious though. The whole object was a trolling post to attact attention and be devisive. Well done, Tunesmith, you have achieved your objective and I shall now take the advice of the moderation team before the thread is, hopefully, shut down. I shall ignore the troll.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:53 AM

Don't knock it, Gnome, this is the liveliest thread we've had in a long time.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Someone Sensible
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:54 AM


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Someone Sensible
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 08:55 AM

As an old friend and erstwhile poster on here used to say.

You can't educate pork. I'm outa here to.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 09:01 AM

Dave the Gnome Dear, oh dear, oh dear. I'm still on here because nobody has engaged in a conversation relating my criticism of the lyrics. And, again, posters have mentioned irony but without even trying to explain what that means in context with the lyrics of the song. Please engage in the conversation in an intelligent, meaningful way because so far your contribution to the topic at hand is dreadfully disappointing.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 09:04 AM

,Someone Sensible, You do realise that you are leaving this topic without registering one meaningful, SENSIBLE thought of your own.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 09:09 AM

Dave the Gnome have you any thoughts of your own? Please explain, in the context of this song, where exactly irony is used. Please, please do that because if you don't - or more likely can't - it will look like you belong under a bridge.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 09:14 AM

My post on the subject at 08:47 AM included the line "See 1b and ask yourself whether the protagonist actualy did gavotte past the mirror then see 2b and wonder whether he saw himself as the narrotor saw him" which adequately explains how the lyrics are ironic

But you reply with And, again, posters have mentioned irony but without even trying to explain what that means in context with the lyrics of the song

Whether you really do not undertsnd or whether you are feigning ignorance to provoke reaction is not important. In either case, the conversation is not worth continuing. Goodbye.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 09:32 AM

Dave, Dave, Dave oh dear. What are talking about. The whole premise of my argument is about the punchline of the song "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you" That is the crux of the topic. but no, you chose to pick up on some irrelevant line which is only there as an example of the vanity of the subject of the song. So, can you answer this question. I am saying that in the context of the whole song the lyrics," You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you" doesn't make sense. And, if you don't agree please explain why not. And, if you do answer the question, in a clear emphatic manner, congratulations because you will be the first poster to do so.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 09:35 AM

Statement: “You’re so vain”.

Ironic/sarcastic comment: “I’ll bet you think this song is about you”.

Get it yet, Tunesmith? You seem to be the only one around here who doesn’t.


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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' revisted
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 09:42 AM

That's five minutes I'll never get back. There's no point to this thread except to bait readers.


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