Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Eluned Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:26 PM This is one great thread!! I've always thought that the song dated back to the actual time of the underground RR, and from what Barry Finn said early on, I would think that was definitely true. However, McGrath of Harlow's questions made me wonder; do we really know this to be true? Could this be simply be a mistaken belief, like the story told about Washington and the cherry tree, or the tale that Lincoln was born in a log cabin? |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Pablo Date: 09 Apr 00 - 12:43 PM Re: Lonesome EJ's post. I would just add that the Tombigbee flows through northeastern Mississippi. It's just south of Tupelo on the map. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 03 Apr 00 - 07:06 PM SEems to me I first heard it in the 40s, by Burl Ives. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:54 PM It's a great song, and a fascinating story. But I can't help wondering whether get the feeling the story came first, or the song.
Is this a traditional song which was actually sung back in the first half of the 19th century by people using the Underground Railway? Or is it a song made up in the second quarter of the 20th century by someone who felt that there ought to be a song about the UIndergrond Railway?
Where did it first come to light? And where did the first people identified as singing it get it from? (So far the earliest anyone seems to have tied it down on the Mudcat appears to have been the Weavers. And though that's a good site that Animaterra gave us, it doesn't look into those questions.) |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Lonesome EJ Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:00 PM Animaterra, thanks for the site link which gives explanation of several lines in the song no one has mentioned.
1) When the sun goes back and the first quail calls 2)The river bed makes a mighty fine road( the Tombigbee River in Central Alabama)
3)The river ends between two hills(headwaters of the Tombigbee)
4)Where the little river meets the great big one(where the Tennessee runs into the Ohio) Thanks again, and especially to Pablo for starting this one. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Lonesome EJ Date: 02 Apr 00 - 04:45 PM I liked this song, even before I found out on this thread that it was literally a map to freedom. The information has increased my appreciation many times over. GREAT thread. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: harpgirl Date: 02 Apr 00 - 03:36 PM ...Hi Dave...I have really enjoyed your singing and playing on hearme by the way! I read the notes on "Follow the Drinking Gourd" from RUS. McGrath's question is interesting! RUS says trad. arranged by Lee Hayes and The Weavers 1951 and renewed 1979 Folkways Music Publishers etc. Thi song derives from the time of the underground RR and offers instructions to runaway slaves for reaching freedom in Canada-above all of course to keep heading toward the "the drinking gourd" (The Big Dipper). On Sparky Rucker "Heroes and Hard Times", Pete Seeger "I can see a new day" and "50 Sail, Weavers"At Carnegie Hall" & Gr H "Bright Morning Star Arisin", Kim and Reggie Harris "M & the underground rr", & Shays Rebellion "Daniel Shay's Hwy." In the Weavers SB, S of the Spirit, Carry It on, Here's to the Women & Children, S for a Friendly Planet. I first heard it at the FFF done by Last Rites, a stellar group from South Florida. Dr. Sound and I, who have started to play gigs together, are going to be working on it for a Friday night Art Opening at City Hall in Tallahassee. It is a community wide art show, a fitting venue for such an important song. Could our scholars suggest more such songs? Barry and I find them very sympatico to our politics and intent in musical expression...harpgirl |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Feb 00 - 02:19 PM Fascinating links. But can anyone tell us more about when and where the song was collected, and whether there are any variant versions collected? |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Barry T Date: 09 Feb 00 - 11:52 PM For the historians among us I just tripped across this superb site on the Underground Railroad... here.
Well researched and worthwhile reading! |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Lesley N. Date: 08 Feb 00 - 04:31 PM Try here (http://www.madison.k12.wi.us/planetarium/ftdg1.htm) for more information. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Sorcha Date: 05 Feb 00 - 09:21 PM Help, Allan Lomax, WHERE ARE YOU?? |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Feb 00 - 07:21 PM If you were walking along the bank, the Mississipi would accompany you going North instead of South, if you were following the Drinking Gourd. "Carry" wouldn't have to mean you were floating.
But I reckon there might well be some other meanings around in the background of the song, to do with the spirit world. Was this song collected in many places and many times? Or are we going back to one version? Are there any other songs with similar imagery, either in the Black American traditions, or elsewhere, for example in the Caribbean or West Africa?
I think it's time for some heavy duty folklore imput, like we'd get on the Mudcat if this was a question about an Irish song or a Child ballad.
|
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 05 Feb 00 - 04:53 PM In case anybody missed the reference, "the drinking gourd" referred to is the Big Dipper constellation, which points to the north star. And "the old man" can't very well be the Mississippi, because "The old man is a-waitin' for to carry you to freedom," but the Mississippi would just carry you south to slave territory again. I assume it's got to be Peg Leg Joe who's a-waitin'. Dave Oesterreich. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: BK Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:47 PM Pablo; I'll try, hopefully fairly soon; no one has ever accused me of having my music (or much else) very organized in recent decades, 'n we have moved a lot. Cheers, BK |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Pablo Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:00 PM BK, in the name of Pinky, please don't hold back extra drinking gourd verses (if you know some missed by Lomax). Awaiting breathless. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Barry Finn Date: 04 Feb 00 - 07:36 PM Sorry, the above should've read snow water not white water. Barry |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: pastorpest Date: 04 Feb 00 - 04:30 PM Sandwich Baptist Church, Windsor, Ontario, (across the river from Detroit) has hidden cupboards in its basement where escaped slaves hid until they could move further away from the American border. Amherstburg, town on the Canadian side of the Detroit River is home to a Black historical museum, maintianed by descendants of slaves. Both are worth a visit to anyone interested in this subject. Besides it is a great song! |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: kendall Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:51 AM The man who was killed was a slave. It may have been an accident or a murder. we just dont know for sure. Anyway, the spirit was not a bad guy, it had a sense of humor, never threw anything at someones head etc. The penny I picked up was an Indian head, I dont remember the date, but, all the others he kept were very old. Not knowing his name, they simply called him "pinky" |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: GUEST,Barry Finn Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:17 AM Slaves didn't drink from the same vessels as the white folks drink from, this they refered to as white water. Something about a gourd that makes the water in it taste cool, so they much prefered drinking from it. Barry |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Amos Date: 03 Feb 00 - 11:37 PM Who was the old guy who got "blessed out" of the house? Anyone know why he was "hantin'" the place? Had he been killed, or somehow disappointed...unfinished business?? And, did the old pennies stop coming after the blessing, or was that independent? How old were they? Wow! I'm intrigued!! This is the first first-hand report I have heard of solid poltergeistery of this magnitude. A |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: BK Date: 03 Feb 00 - 11:31 PM Great story from Kendall & great link on the drinking gourd; THIS kind of thread is why I still love the mudcat, no matter what some mentally ill (but not in a fun or merely eccentric way) person(s) may do in an attempt to dammage it. VIVA MUDCAT!! ps will try, sometime... to dig up some other verses for this song. Cheers, BK |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Pablo Date: 03 Feb 00 - 07:12 PM Again many thanks: ghosts, midi, maps, more than I dreamed of. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 03 Feb 00 - 12:12 PM WOW Kendall- that's some story!! I have a friend who lives in a house here in southwestern NH with a hidden "safe room" that was built for the Underground RR. She claims there is a ghost in the house, but that when she arrived she had a "talk" with it and has never been bothered by it. Her cleaning service has beent frightened a few times, though! Here's what I undersand about "peg foot": Peg Leg Joe was a white man, a "conductor" , or guide, on the Underground RR. He would work as an itinerant carpenter on the slave plantations, and teach Follow the Drinking Gourd and other songs to help the slaves escape. "Peg foot" was a sign he would carve into the trunks of trees: the shape of a left foot, next to a small circle, signifying his foot-print, to let the escapees know they were on the right track. He would then wait at the Ohio River to row them across and get them started in the path of safe houses. This site gives some more info and some links. It's a great song, and an inspiring story. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: kendall Date: 03 Feb 00 - 11:50 AM That house is in Fayette Maine. I was visiting my friend, and, he was showing me some work he was doing in a small room. The door was closed, and there was no one else around. As we talked, suddenly, I heard a strange sound. I turned around, and rolling across the floor toward me, was a penny-- OUT OF A BLANK WALL! I commented on this odd happening, and he told me it happens all the time, that he had a jar half full of such coins. He showed it to me, and there were indeed many old coins. Now, this I saw with my own eyes..no second hand info here. According to him, there have been many strange happenings there, such as a rocking chair which rocks by itself, a guitar that makes strumming sounds, and pots and pans being rattled around in the middle of the night. He is not one to make up stories, in fact, he is a devout Catholic and does not believe in spooks. However, one of the children saw an entity sitting on the stairs and really freaked out. At his wife's request, they had the place blessed and the entity has since moved on. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: GUEST,Barry Finn Date: 03 Feb 00 - 09:26 AM No George, you're not unless I'm too (a decent chance there). I can guess at it but I wouldn't mind knowing why either. Barry |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Feb 00 - 09:25 AM Hey Amos.....Find a thread entitled "Pete Seeger Pseudonyms" and you can read a bit more on the subject. Spaw |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: GeorgeH Date: 03 Feb 00 - 09:23 AM Am I being more than usually stupid here?? I can't for the life of me figure what's meant by: "However the Weavers' employment of a nom de plume had a significance considerably beyond its use as a publishing device." in Toledo Frank's post . . Can someone explain, please? G. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Amos Date: 03 Feb 00 - 09:02 AM Please do, Kendall! What have you seen? What is the story behind it? A |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: kendall Date: 03 Feb 00 - 08:42 AM A close friend of mine lives in an old house that was a stop on the "railway". It is haunted by the spirit of a slave who was murdered in the "safe room". I have seen evidence of this with my own eyes. If anyone wants to know about that, I'll post it here. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Amos Date: 02 Feb 00 - 11:24 PM Well, I'll be hornswoggled! The things ya learn on Mudcat! I never knew the Weavers had a nom de plume! Dang! Thank you, Frank, for enhancing my education! A |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: GUEST,Frank of Toledo Date: 02 Feb 00 - 11:03 PM I'm quoting from a Weavers' songbook, date 1960. In the Introductory Notes they say "To most readers of a book like this, the crediting of material is of minor interest. To say therefore that the name Paul Campbell, to which many of the songs in this book are assigned, was a pseudonym adopted from 1950 to 1953 for Ronnie Gilbert Lee Hays, Fred Hellerman and Pete Seeger should ordinarily suffice. However the Weavers' employment of a nom de plume had a significance considerably beyond its use as a publishing device." This include the song "Follow The Drinking Gourd". |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Amos Date: 02 Feb 00 - 10:47 PM The Almanac Singers or the Weavers recorded this back in the 40's -- and I don't recall Paul Campbell being among 'em. Who was Paul Campbell? A |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Hotspur Date: 02 Feb 00 - 10:36 PM The Old Man is the mighty Mississippi, or so I've been told. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: BK Date: 02 Feb 00 - 10:26 PM Just looked at the DT version. Heard many I like better, but - most of all - can that guy (Paul Campbell?) really copyright what I've always thought was a true traditional song, created by blacks in the south, for the underground railroad??? Seems like dirty pool to me; I bet somebody can explain, but is it REALLY ethical?? Cheers, BK |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: BK Date: 02 Feb 00 - 10:19 PM Lotta variations of this; mine is only slightly different, learned from a mishmash of sources; anyway I'd always wondered abt the "left foot, peg foot" part. Makes sense. I probably should look at the words in the DT. A great version of this was recorded by "Joe & Eddie" in the 60's. Cheers, BK |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: GUEST,Pablo Date: 02 Feb 00 - 10:06 PM Grateful to ALL for the quick response. I'll post again if I find more than the above. |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Barry Finn Date: 02 Feb 00 - 09:20 PM From Lomax's American Ballads & Folk Songs. A sailor named Peg Leg Joe helped runaway slaves. This was in the country north of Mobile & the trail discribed in the song followed north to the headwaters of the Tombigbee River, then over the Divide & down the Ohio River. They were to follow the trail marked by a left footprint & a hole. The gourd=big dipper the great big one=Ohio River
"The river's bank is a very good road
The river ends between 2 hills
Where the little river Frankie Qumbie(sp?) of the Georgia Sea Island Singers does quite a job on these slave "Code Songs" . She mentioned one they'd sing when Harriet Tubman (sp? again?) would be coming through, so every one (slaves only) who was going better get ready to go. Barry |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: MMario Date: 02 Feb 00 - 05:45 PM off the top of my head here, but peg foot...how much truth is there to the tale that some captured runaways had a foot chopped off to prevent repeat attempts? |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 02 Feb 00 - 05:37 PM As to "Peg Foot", I've heard that there was a one-legged white man (former sailor?? don't recall) who participated in the underground railway, who was supposed to be referred to there. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: Help: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: Frank in the swamps Date: 02 Feb 00 - 05:04 PM Zora Neale Hurston may have collected lore on this, I'd check out "Of Mules And Men". Frank i.t.s. |
Subject: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings From: GUEST,Pablo Date: 02 Feb 00 - 04:43 PM Digitrad has great threads on Slavery songs, but what about the symbolic meanings of those lyrics for "Follow the Drinking Gourd." I remember some of them are more occult than just the big-dipper, north star bit in the title line. The old man? The dead trees show you the way? Left foot, PEG FOOT ? Any interpreters? I'm singing this for inner-city grade school kids, along with Go Down Moses, and Many Thousands Gone. |
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