Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: GUEST,John Bari
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 05:26 PM

Yes. I call this: "reverse plagiarism." Some must be figuring they'll get more of a listen if it's perceived as a time-worn cultural landmark. The same thing is happening now with the supposed poetry of Rumi and "Hafiz," much of which would be unrecognizable to classic poets like Jalaluddin Rumi and Khawje Hafez. But can you blame them really? Poetry and folk music are pursuits not generally reliable for paying the bills.

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 11:28 AM

Thank you for the explanation. That's what I thought.

In the "old days" people weren't so concerned with being truthful about the sources of songs, etc. It goes right back to the beginnings of folk song scholarship with Achim von Arnim's and Clemens Brentano's "Des Knaben Wunderhorn", one of the first European collections of supposed folk songs and poems. "Supposed" because they and their friends (including Goethe) enjoyed smuggling in poems of their own and they weren't and didn't want to be scholars.

And there are (substantiated) stories about well-known performers claiming that music was traditional or from composers of the past whereas they wrote it themselves or had someone write it for them.

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: GUEST,John Bari
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 01:34 PM

Looking back at this, I didn't mean to be unkind to Lee Hayes. I grew up with the Weavers' music and admire them tremendously. By "not very upstanding" I simply meant that in comparison to Parks, Hayes was no scholar, and I was reflecting his own daughter's implication that Lee made stuff up and wasn't shy about fudging the truth. Forgive me if I read that wrong, but I don't think I did.

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 03:38 AM

Hello Joe,

I'm a bit of a purist in that respect, too. This is a "wide field", to quote Theodor Fontane ("Effi Briest").

What I was getting at is, that according to Wikipedia, Lee Hays was very courageous with respect to standing up for what was right, at risk to life and limb and at a time when that didn't go without saying (when has it ever?). As much as I care about music and scholarship, I think that's definitely more important.

Musically, I've kind of gone off the Weavers. I never need to hear "Michael Row Your Boat" or "On Top of Old Smokey" again. But time marches on and nothing can take away from what they once accomplished and meant to a lot of people and maybe still does.

Laurence Finston

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 03:18 AM

Hi, Piers Plowman - I think Lee Hays (1914-1981) of the Weavers and other groups was a singer who sang what worked for his audience, not what might be absolutely correct from a historical standpoint. Many of us think that's a good thing. In performance, music must primarily be for the audience. All other considerations should be secondary in performance, but perhaps they should take a more important place in research.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 02:38 AM

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: GUEST,John Bari - PM
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 01:48 AM

"If the song is not truly from the 1800’s, then it's from the very upstanding H. B. Parks (1928) and/or the not-very-upstanding Lee Hayes (1947)."

What exactly do you mean by "the not-very-upstanding Lee Hayes"? Do you just mean that he possibly was fudging a bit with regard to the sources of the song? I just looked up the entry for Hays in Wikipedia and he would appear to have been an admirable and courageous person in many ways.

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: GerryM
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 07:22 PM

The link in Azizi's post of 05 Apr 12 - 02:33 PM seems to have evaporated, but perhpas this link goes to something similar: https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2019/10/follow-drinking-gourd-is-probably.html

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: GUEST,John Bari
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 01:48 AM

I'm looking at all this (including referenced articles) for copyright considerations. (The question was raised.) Here's my personal summary (not legal advice - I'm no lawyer).

The oldest available lyrics were collected (amateurly) by Texas A&M professor Harris Braley Parks and published by the Texas Folklore Society, in a 1928 pamphlet “Foller de Drinkin’ Gou’d.” Parks gives details about having collected the lyrics from 1912 to 1913, implying they had to be much older.

The lyrics now known in folk music circles were apparently adapted from these Parks lyrics in 1947 by Lee Hayes of the Weavers. Lee Hayes said he learned the song from 19th century sources, but there's no supporting evidence to back that up objectively. Some of the recordings of his version credit the songwriting to a made-up name “Paul Campbell.” Most folk music enthusiasts have no awareness of the Parks version and consider Hayes’ well known version to be purely traditional, which it actually may be.

If the song is not truly from the 1800’s, then it's from the very upstanding H. B. Parks (1928) and/or the not-very-upstanding Lee Hayes (1947). But each of those two said they received the song from much, much earlier sources, essentially unidentified. They didn't claim authorship, and such a claim at this late date would seem implausible under the circumstances.

So it appears to me, for my purposes and from a layman's standpoint, that there should be no problem using any of this. And since there are no legitimate copyright holders from the last 95 years, crediting the song to “Peg Leg Joe” ought to be fine also, even though he has never been satisfactorily identified at all.

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: GUEST,John Bari
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 01:16 AM

For the record, here's the tune for Parks' chorus shown on the cover of the 1928 pamphlet, with "16" for 16th notes, "4" for quarter notes, "4." for dotted quarter notes, and "2" for half notes:

\time 2/4
f16 g4. d16 |
f4 g4 |
f2\fermata |
f16 g4. d16 |
f4 g4 |
f4.\fermata g4 g4 |
a4 a4 |
g2\fermata |
f16 g4. d16 |
f4 g4 |
f2\fermata [6th bar sic].

Subject: RE: Origins/Meaning: Follow the Drinking Gourd
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 02:33 PM

Greetings!

I'm posting here to inform those who may be interested that I just published a post on my website that is a compilation of eight comments from this thread, a comment from Joel Bresler's website on "Follow The Drinking Gourd" as well as a video of Weaver's rendition of that song.

The title of the post reflects my position on the authenticity of that song: The Fakelore Of The "Follow The Drinking Gourd" Song.

Click http://cocojams.com/content/fakelore-follow-drinking-gourd-song to read that post.

My concern is that children, youth, and adults are being taught a feel-good story about this song. I believe that people deserve to know that a number of individuals who have studied "Follow The Drinking Gourd" have a great deal of skepticism about the authenticity of that song.

That post provides a small sample of the posts here (with no off-topic comments).That post includes comments from masato sakurai, Q, Lighter, Joel Bresler, and me.

I've added a hyperlink to this website and Joel Bresler's website and I've encouraged readers of that page to visit this page, Joel Bresler's site, and read or engage in other research on the topic of The "Follow The Drinking Gourd" song.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:30 PM

Good story about pegleg, but no more than that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:02 AM

Going in the river was supposed to throw off the scent of the slave catchers' dogs. I remember watching a movie about this a long time ago. It was fiction, but there was a character named Peg Leg Joe who helped the slaves escape. The dead trees marked out a trail. Except for the first piece of information, I'm not sure how accurate all that is.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:01 AM

The legend lives on. From another current thread:

"15. Follow the Drinking Gourd (Traditional) 3:00 A code song based on the Underground Railroad activities of Peg Leg Joe, a 'conductor.' He traveled to plantations as a handy man and gave secret instructions about a trail he marked with his peg leg for heading north by following the handle of the Big Dipper (the drinking gourd) pointing north to the Ohio River and ultimately freedom in the north."

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

Anybody interested in this song should take a look at Joel Bresler's outstanding research at the link M.Ted provides.

"If it seems too good to be true...it probably is."

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 12:12 AM

Joel Bresler, who posted extensively above, has recently published his work, which draws from and expand upon this discussion-- Follow the Drinkin' Gourd.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 07:37 PM

That last "Guest" was me. Something keeps eating my cookie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 06:32 PM

Exactly, Q.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 05:53 PM

Lighter- Which adds to the opinions of many folklore specialists that the song did not exist before the 'date of collection'.
The legend is ridiculous anyway; The North Star (Polaris, Dhruva, many names) would lead an escapee into certain recapture by 'patrollers'; any codes would have to do with contacting the underground railway or other assistance to fleeing slaves.
Of course various words or phrases would be developed to hide meaning ('codes'); all groups desiring secrecy develop them, but the 'Gourd' song has no value in this regard.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 03:57 PM

FWIW, I've now done an extensive search of various American newspaper, book, and periodical databases back to 1800: millions and millions and millions of words. I haven't found a single reference to the song or the legend earlier than Parks's in 1928.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 03:18 PM

Thanks to everyone on this thread! I have an acting class assignment where we are supposed to act out something about a composer and perform his/her music. I started out with the idea that I could be the famous "anonymous" and sing this song as a nameless slave dreaming of freedom. Then I was stunned to find Paul Campbell mentioned as the composer in Tom Glazer's "Songs of Peace, Freedom and Protest." After following this thread through the Weavers, Hays, Parks, ghosts, haunted houses and PegLeg Joe my head is still spinning. I think I'm going to stick to the good story and wish you all luck as you try to verify it or expose it as a romantic "non-urban legend." I'm still like those school kids mentioned here - when I look at the Big Dipper it makes me feel safe, even though I've been living far from home for over 30 years.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:50 PM

SIDE COMMENT

Regarding doubts about codes in "Pre-Emancipation" African American songs and spirituals (since that discussion was most easily findable in this thread when I went back to look for it)--

I've been reflecting as well as continuing to check my sources. If an African American performer, scholar, and/or collector of songs they say they trace back to songs they received from their grandmothers- who-were-alive-"Pre-Emancipation," say that their songs had codes-- I find that credible.

And I also find it credible, given what African American friends have confided to me about the closed-loop nature of communication in the black community (as they called it), where words in the community STAY in the community precisely because that is how the culture and the "race" (their word) survived.

I personally recall African American parents in an early-90's parents' group confiding that "severe discipline" (which we might recognize by today's standards as harsh abuse) would enforce this expectation of "keep it in the community."

And this "keep it in the community" imperative is not at all unique to the African American experience.... it is also the experience of many, MANY an oppressed group during the worst of the mistreatment as well as for years afterwards-- a cultural legacy of strong loyalty to the group for the very survival of that group. I live it today, in the place our church's area has in our Diocesan life.

SPECIES survival is a strong instinct as much as the instinct toward self-survival that might have led an occasional individual to "tell on" their poorer, less-"privileged" fellow slaves. (What do we think drives the "black enough" controversies and words like "Oreo" applied to light-skinned Afrcian Americans? Clearly-- fear of divided loyalty.)

As a matter of logic, the idea that one or more people might have "informed" does not preclude that by and large, there WAS an abiding hope in the chance that secret communication might just prevail every now and then. We're talking about desperate and creative people, who would have been trying each and every strategy they possibly could.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:22 PM

Speaking of the "Nom de Plume" reference, in one of the entries above, I have often wondered how many traditional songs were "modified" to satisfy copyright laws in the U.S. I recall learning of this early on, in the 1950's, when I saw printed versions of Kingston Trio lyrics and compared them to versions found in various compilations by people like Alan Lomas, et al. Often, only part of a recurring phrase or a few words would be changed, along with small changes in the tune, thus creating a "new" version, which could then be protected as a group's own.

If you follow the logic of the rumor repeated around the table, person to person, what some of us think of as traditional songs may be quite a bit different from the original. Of course, some have always called that the "folk tradition."

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 10:04 PM

(Who was the senior officer of the two boys, Captain Queeg? Personal conversations are not forbidden in the U. S. Navy).

When you are in training, you don't get to room with your brother. Because they were step-brothers, and had different last names, they ended up rooming a lot, just by the luck of the draw. They didn't advertise the relationship, and because of it they were able to look out for one another in some interesting ways.

As far as far-fetched-- I doubt it was the custom for slaves to let their true feelings about overseers known. "Sure, massa! I love being a slave!" seems somewhat at variance with what we can know, today, about the realities of slavery. I am also sure that overseers would not have responded positively to reality-oriented speech in response to their orders.

Maybe, as Azizi has suggested, there were snitches among the slaves. But I think a more pressing danger would have been the overseers. And I doubt that an intelligent, creative people would have preferred silence to lash-provoking speech. Human beings communicate. As best they can.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 08:50 PM

Your example is far-fetched.
Plantation life required frequent changes in use of labor, frequent sharing of labor with neighboring farms and plantations including transportation and cartage among plantations in the same area. The slave hierarchy- house, craftsmen, those engaged in animal husbandry, carters, oarsmen, etc., allowed communication from the farm-plantation to the city slaves of merchants, warehousemen and dock workers as well as the personal slaves of professional and other well-to-do citizens. Communication among workers, slave or free, was as essential on a plantation as it is now in the corporation tower (or corporate farm).

Suggested reading-
Rosengarten, Theodore, 1986, "Tombee, Portrait of a Cotton Planter, with The Journal of Thomas B. Chaplin (1822-1890)."

(Who was the senior officer of the two boys, Captain Queeg? Personal conversations are not forbidden in the U. S. Navy).

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM

OK, an example.

Well, if your brother had been sold to the next plantation over, and your work-group met his work-group on the road, you might want to keep the contact quiet. Having had two step-brother sons in the Navy, I can assure you that you don't always want to let the powers-that-be know how to gain any leverage on you. But you might want to inquire how your brother is doing, and tell him how his wife and kids are missing him and keeping him in their thoughts and, maybe, prayers.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:29 PM

Why would they have to talk in 'code language' to each other?
Did the owners fit each one with a recording microphone?
I fail to see any reason for it.

Subject: Code Language in Spirituals
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 01:45 PM

Not on the song specifically, but since this thread has come to include a discussion of code language I want to make a comment I believe I have made before in other threads-- but who knows where, now? ~:)

And that is, that code language could have been used not only about escapes-- I agree with Azizi's doubts about that-- but in communicating among slaves about day-to-day life. Not code for the purpose of fooling massa about escape plans, Capital C Code-- but veiled references to feelings and experiences of life as an owned, oppressed, grieving, angry human being. Small c "code."

It's my opinion that such would have served as a point of perceived commonality between slaves and the way unsaved folks were portrayed by religious imagery of the time. Slave songs (for that's what the authentic songs we now call spirituals are ) resonate with metaphors of captivity, just as many Bible passages recount previous historical captivities as well as the captivity of a soul in bondage to sin.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 01:28 PM

Historian Fergus M. Bordewich has written a fine book called "Bound for Canaan: The Underground Railroad and the War for the Soul of America." He shows how the Underground Railroad forced Americans to think about slavery in new ways, as it delivered tens of thousands of former slaves into Northern communities.

In an article for the NY Times (Feb. 2, 2007), he discusses the myths that "submerge the horrific reality of slavery in a gilded haze of uplift. But in claiming to honor the history of African-Americans, they serve only to erase it in a new way"

Not his main theme, but he considers the myths and bizarre legends attached to the Underground Railroad. One of them concerns the ballad, "Follow the Drinking Gourd."
The version as taught in some schools and often heard as 'truth' actually was composed by Lee Hays of the Weavers in 1947, a fictional song based on two little fragments collected in 1928 of what may be an old hymn.

(Lee Hays is currently associated with BMI; Follow the Drinking Gourd is BMI Work # 3519896)

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:37 PM

GUEST,JTT,

I've read the same explanation. Note I said 'read'

I'm African American but this song certainly wasn't anything that was passed down to me by oral tradition. But, then again, to be fair, that could be explained by the fact that I don't have any Southern relatives {or at least I didn't have any relatives who lived in the Southern part of the United States until a few members of my family started moving to different Southern states about five years ago}.

So-forget about my personal lack of knowledge about this song.
I don't get a sense that it is part of the oral tradition of African Amerians who have had Southern roots for a long time.

And I don't see it mentioned in published recollections of former slaves as a means by which they or people they knew escaped from slavery.

The idea that there were "coded references to a known safe routes" to freedom that were passed on without someone who was a trusted 'family retainer' i.e. a House Negro {substitute the word you want} not hearing about it and not telling ole massa and missus, seems to me to be beyond belief.

I think that 'Follow The Drinking Gourd' is like an urban legend only it's not urban.



Azizi

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:09 PM

Re duped by four different informants-
If one accepts that Parks encountered fragments of an old gospel or spiritual in the NC-Tenn area, and from the traveling revivalist at Waller, as you say Hays suggested, then only the material from College Station needs re-examination.
A university town is a good place in which to be 'duped.' Like a number of songcatchers, Parks expertise was in another field.
(Not that there is anything wrong with that, Dobie never had an academic doctorate, although he wrote several books which would qualify as research on the doctorate level, and Mody (Moody) Boatwright, who succeeded him as editor of the Texas Folk-Lore Society, was a petroleum geologist).

Oh, well, just more speculation. Keep hunting!

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:57 PM

Yeah-- code to find the OTHER POSTS where it's all explained, bunked, and debunked, endlessly.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:55 PM

I always understood that the Drinking Gourd was the Big Dipper - what we in Ireland call the Plough in the Stars.

The song was a coded instruction (as I was told, anyway) to explain to slaves how to find their way north to Canada by following the North Star.

I assume that the other instructions - the river ending between two hills, the peg-leg, etc - are also coded references to a known safe route.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 10:22 AM

From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:30 PM

>At the risk of pointing out the obvious, if it was truly "out of character" for Parks to have concocted the story, perhaps he was taken in by somebody else!

He would have to have been duped by four different informants separated by over 1,000 miles...

>Too bad we don't have the text that Lee Hays heard as a young boy. A comparison would be in order.

The song would have been transmitted orally. I've been through Lee Hays' papers at the Smithsonian looking for all references to this song. There were some interesting bits, but nothing on the provenance.

FWIW, Parks wrote that the song originated with the UGRR as "Follow the Drinking Gourd" and had been altered later to make it into a spiritual, "Follow the Risen Lord." Hays seemed quite convinced that the song had started as a pre-civil war camp revival song, "Follow the Risen Lord", and that the UGRR had then adapted it to suit its purposes. If he uncovered any documentation to this effect, I could not find it in his papers.

Thanks for the comments!

Joel

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 05 - 09:54 PM

Parks, I believe, was an entomologist and botanist at the Texas Agricultural Experiment Station, at the then Texas A & M College (The institution has evolved into a very large university).
He was especially known for his plant and animal studies of the East Texas region.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:30 PM

Joel, good research ! I generally agree with Q. At the risk of pointing out the obvious, if it was truly "out of character" for Parks to have concocted the story, perhaps he was taken in by somebody else ! The point is that the song just sounds too good to be true - in many ways.

Too bad we don't have the text that Lee Hays heard as a young boy. A comparison would be in order.

A further possibility - assuming Hays's recollection was correct - is that the song was commercially written, perhaps for a long-forgotten stage drama, not long before Parks heard it.

Just thoughts.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 05 - 02:21 PM

Good luck on your research.
Whenever I get time, I look into more of the underground railway literature, and interviews with former slaves, looking mostly for songs, but also just interested in learning a bit more.

I think the idea of coded 'escape' songs is largely nonsense. Word-of-mouth and sketches in the dirt would be much more effective.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Joel Bresler
Date: 19 May 05 - 09:48 AM

Hi, thanks to everyone for reviving this thread. I am combining posts from the two different threads here for comment. I have been researching a cultural history of the song for about half a year now. Whether the song is "authentic" or not doesn't affect this cultural history, though as you might imagine, I would love to be able to answer the authenticity question.

>No other record or fragment of the song has been found, although 77 years have passed since publication.

Lee Hays claims to have heard the song from his Aunty Laura when a young boy.

>No record of any such underground railroad conductor has been found

True enough, although there were three major national anti-slavery societies and many hundreds of local societies at the time he would have been active.

>My personal belief is that Parks concocted the story, partly from an old spiritual, and abetted by wishful thinking, and perhaps a desire to put one over on J. Frank Dobie, at that time editor for the Texas Folk-Lore Society

Based on what I've learned about Parks (including discussions with former associates, correspondence and phone calls with his granddaughter) this would have been out of character. (Of course, that doesn't mean it's impossible!) I think he would have been loathe to jeopardize his relationship w/ Dobie, which was very important to him. Plus, he was working in a university setting, and had he been found out, it likely would have been the end of his academic career.

Incidentally, I can't find any trace of the supposed old spiritual, "Follow the Risen Lord."

>Others have questioned the story, but I must emphasize that the above remarks are solely mine.

I'd only note that in the folklore field, improbability does not necessarily mean falsification. But yes, FTDG is an improbable story.

>...since the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 applied in ALL states; if found anywhere, the slave by law was returned to his owners.

Abolitionists and the UGRR didn't care what the Slave Act said, they still assisted runaways.

Again, my thanks for the interesting contributions.

Best,

Joel

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:58 AM

I don't have my reference handy, but the scholarly suspicions stem from exactly the sort of points that Q has raised here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 May 05 - 11:25 PM

Joel, see my post in thread 81241, 17 May 05, 08:54PM- Drinkin' Gourd
(posted as Guest when Mudcat was severely ill).

In the over 75 years since Parks published his story and song in 1928, no one has found any evidence of the pegleg conductor. There are no citations other than those based on Parks article.
The story is dubious, since the underground railway operated by word of mouth in getting the escapee to the 'first station,' a safe location or house. A 'conductor' would supervise from then on.
Also, as noted in this thread, 13 Apr 05, going north solo was almost a sure way to get caught, since the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 applied in ALL states; if found anywhere, the slave by law was returned to his owners.
The story has been embroidered by singers like Campbell and Seeger (the one in the DT, for example) and in a book for children that I have seen.

I wrote Parks 'repeats' in a mixed-up post written from my poor memory before I checked my copy of the Folk-Lore Society publication; I attributed the story to the editor of the volume (Dobie) and not to the author of the paper (Parks). I had to apologise and correct that error. Parks did not 'repeat;' the only citation is in his paper.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Joel Bresler
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:51 PM

On 04 Mar 05 - 05:50 PM Q wrote:



>Parks (in the article posted above by 'Guest'), repeats the anecdote about a peg leg man, a story which, following emancipation, was spread widely and appears in the song

I would be interested in any anecdotes about a peg legged abolitionist, especially one working in the South. Citations would be welcome.

Thanks!

Joel

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Joel Bresler
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:28 PM

Hi, Lighter wrote on 05 Mar 05 - 09:21 PM

Scholars are beginning to think that Parks, the "collector," wrote this haunting song himself not too long before 1928.

Which scholars, please? I am researching the song. Are you referring to the Tuscaloosa News October, 2004 article? The source won't go on the record.

Many thanks,

Joel

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:24 PM

*smile*

There are some really great links at the house link in my last posting, including the text of Reminiscences of Levi Coffin.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM

Lots of good info in here - Very Interesting wether I ever sing the song or Not !!

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:17 PM

Well done, Steve/Suffet. I like it.

There was an interesting episode on HGTV about "Historic Homes Of Freedom." Here's the blurb about one of them:

Levi Coffin House, Fountain City, Ind. House of a Quaker couple, Levi and Catherine Coffin. They built the house specifically for hiding runways, fitting it with secret rooms and stairways. (Photo courtesy of the Levi Coffin House Association.

According to the website for the house, HERE, Levi Coffin was often referred to as the "President of the Underground Railroad" and their house was known as the "Grand Central Station" of it.

kat

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:11 PM

After passage of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850, an escaping slave could no longer just head more or less north to cross the Ohio River or otherwise reach a non-slave state.
The task of conducting the slaves fell to careful, well-organized members of the Underground Railway. Routes were not straight line. It was mostly up to the escapee to reach the first 'station', which he did by following carefully the path passed by word of mouth among the slaves by 'travelers.'
Once the escapee reached a station, his fate was in the hands of the conductors, who laid out the route and escorted the slaves. The route never was due north, but zig-zaged according to location of safe houses or sites, and sometimes was delayed for days to a time until the route was deemed safe.
Much is written about one or two of these conductors, but there were others that were more important.
John Parker helped slaves to cross the Ohio River and passed them on to other helpers.
William Cretty of New York helped 3000.
Robert Purvis of Philadelphia is credited with transporting 9000.
William Still, also of Philadelphia, conducted many.
Others included David Ruggles, Josiah Henson, Harriet Tubman and many others whose names are buried in records or unknown.
Purvis, Still and Ruggles were African-American free men.

Routes through the northeastern states of New York, New Jersey, parts of Pennsylvania, etc., involved transit by boat, train and horse-drawn vehicles, carefully worked out to avoid enforcers of the Fugitive Slave Act.
Some 30,000 reached Canada, and others were hidden in rural areas with strong anti-slave populations.

Few slaves would be dumb enough not to know the dangers of simple-mindedly "following the drinking gourd." Getting to the first station required following careful directions which reached him by word of mouth and diagrams drawn in the dirt.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:49 PM

Greetings:

Follow the Drinking Gourd is just one song in a family of fugitive slave songs. I found a tantalizing piece of close relative from a high school student who learned the following from her grandmother who had come up from the South as a little girl. The tune of the first, second, and fifth lines is similar to Do What the Spirit Says Do. The tune to the third and fourth lines is the similar to the tune of "There's an old man waiting there to carry you to freedom" from Follow the Drinking Gourd:

STARS GONNA SHOW YOU THE WAY
Anonymous(?)

Stars gonna show you the way,
Stars gonna show you the way,
It's run, nigger, run,
When the paddy rollers come,
Stars gonna show you the way.

That's it, just a fragment. Here's what I did with it:

STARS GONNA SHOW YOU THE WAY
Based on a traditional theme.
New words and music adaptation by Stephen L. Suffet ©2005.

Stars gonna show you the way,
Stars gonna show you the way,
It's run, children, run,
When the paddy rollers come,
Stars gonna show you the way.

Keep in the water and low,
Keep in the water and low,
It's run, children, run,
When the paddy rollers come,
Stars gonna show you the way.

Go where Old Rattler can't go,
Go where Old Ratter can't go,
It's run, children, run,
When the paddy rollers come,
Stars gonna show you the way.

Go by the dark of the night,
Go by the dark of the night,
It's run, children, run,
When the paddy rollers come,
Stars gonna show you the way.

Hide by the light of the day,
Hide by the light of the day,
It's run, children, run,
When the paddy rollers come,
Stars gonna show you the way.

Do what the spirit says do,
Do what the spirit says do,
It's run, children, run,
When the paddy rollers come,
Stars gonna show you the way.

Stars gonna show you the way,
Stars gonna show you the way,
It's run, children, run,
When the paddy rollers come,
Stars gonna show you the way.

It really works well as a children's song, especially if you can get the kids to act it out.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST,Seneschal
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:16 PM

I would be more suspicious if it HAD been well documented.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:03 PM

It is more likely the story was invented.

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:02 PM

Surely the main reason why this wasn't collected for so many years after was because they didn't WANT it known? That's the whole point of a secret song. Imagine what would have happened if it was found? Old habits dying hard, they would not have been keen about revrealing it even years later. Another thought, maybe it was directed at children or adolescents?

Subject: RE: Origins: Follow the Drinking Gourd meanings
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:44 AM

Why do you then express that "personal opinion" in the plural, ~Susie?
Must be that "christian humility" I've heard so much about.