Doing research: need help!! women in trad music

Subject: Doing research: need help!!
From: GUEST,Eleanor
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 11:59 AM

Hi, I'm doing a research project on women in the history of trad music, problem is there's not much written about the subject! In the US, anyway. Does anyone know:

1. any tunes or texts written by women? 2. ever heard of the Mona Shull? 3. any good recordings or tunes/songs by women?

thanks! Eleanor

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 12:08 PM

We have more than a few members here who can help you a lot. Hopefully some of them like Margaret MacArthur and Nancy Jean will drop by. Perhaps not exactly what you need, but a good start is a search of the DigiTrad. If you enter -- @feminist -- in the search box above you'll get about 58 hits, not all applicable I'm sure, but its a start.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Vixen
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 12:12 PM

Dear Eleanor--

You'll get a lot more advice, I'm sure, but you might start with Maybelle Carter and the Carter Family and Elizabeth Cotten.

Good Luck,

V

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 12:14 PM

Whoops.....ALSO, please check in at the site of Sandy and Caroline Paton (also Mudcatters) at Folk-Legacy Records (click here) and check the section of their on-line catalog under "Women"...Go to their main page, its an easy site to navigate and you'll see what you may be after.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: jeffp
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 12:26 PM

If you're interested in women performers of Irish traditional music, check out Cherish the Ladies and Ceoltori, two excellent groups.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 01:04 PM

If your definition includes the blues, there are tons, ranging from Bessie Smith through Memphis Minnie and beyond; for country music, some of us are partial to Patsy Montana, but there are lots more!!!!!yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 01:29 PM

You have a logical problem here. A purist would say: a song can't be classified as "traditional" unless no one knows who wrote it; therefore your first question is impossible to answer. Some more productive questions might be these: (1) What women have written music in a traditional style? (2) Have there been any female folk song collectors and publishers? (Certainly the best known ones, e.g. Cecil Sharp, Alan Lomax, Vance Randolph, were male.) (3) What songs were traditionally sung (and transmitted) more by women than men? (Certainly Sharp et al. had lots of informants who were female.) (4) In what social contexts did women sing and teach songs to one another (apart from men)? (5) How are women portrayed in traditional songs? Are they portrayed differently depending on the context, or depending on whether the singer is male or female?

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 01:44 PM

Traditional songs women sang: lullabyes, songs to accompany women's work, ballads to pass the time.

A woman writer whose texts have entered trad music: Lady Nairn (Scotland).

Some famous female collectors of traditional song: Helen Hartness Flanders (U.S./Vermont), Edith Fowke (Canada), Helen Creighton (Canada/Maritimes).

Women on collections of traditional song: listen to any Lomax collection, or Library of Congress disk, or collection of ballads from Folk Legacy.

These are just off the top of my head-there's lots of women out there. Just look around...

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 01:53 PM

Don't forget Florence Reece (Which Side are you On) Aunt Molly Jackson (I am a Union woman); and Jean Ritchie, Elizabeth Cotton...

And so far as strict tradition in songs is concerned, women have probably been more important than men. Who is more likely to sing when children are about?

You've got such a big subject here, you'll probably be wise to narrow your boundaries in some way, geographically, or historically, or stylistically. It's half the human race you're talking about, and up until a couple of generations pretty well any music they did was traditional.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Bert
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 01:57 PM

Adding another category to Jim Dixon's list.
(6) - Songs from a woman's point of view.

frinstance... Lolly toodum, Still I love him, Sweet Polly Oliver and so on.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 02:14 PM

I'll be back. Just had a long answer eaten by some rogue touch of the keyboard! Aaarrgghhh. I do have some good thoughts on this. Sorry...katlaughing

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: GUEST,Eleanor
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 02:17 PM

this is all so helpful, thank you all!

I guess what I'm really interested in is finding some trad. Irish tunes or songs that women wrote/may have written. Difficult, I know, since they're supposed to be anonymous, but.... what did women do as composers of trad music before the twentieth century? today, we do have female groups and performers writing and recording songs, but I want to know what happened before women's lib.

thoughts?

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: GUEST,Eleanor
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 02:45 PM

anyone ever heard of the "Mona Shull", or the "Mna siubhail"? supposedly a group of female troubadours in the 16th century.... I'm trying to find a second refernce to them.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM

When it come to real traditional songs authors and composers are rarely known. As far as popular songs go the earliest woman author that I know of is Aphra Behn (in London) in the 1680's. I don't know of any women composers of the 17th century. There were women songwriters and composers in the 18th century, but most are not well known. Look through composers names in BUCEM. Woman wrote songs for some opera/musicals also.

Best known are Scots women. Add to composers a Lucy Johnson of Hilton as a composer of strathspeys in Scotland, well respected, but died soon after she got married. All three songs know as "The Flowers of the forest" were by 18th century Scots women. Mrs. Hunter (nee Ann Home) also wrote many others including 'Alknomook' (traditional American versions noted in Scarces Songs 1 on my website). Lady Wardlaw wrote "Hardyknute". Later (19th century) we have Mrs. Jordon and Lady John Scott revising older songs to make new popular versions. Anne Julia Hatton seems to have composed the songs for "Tammany', 1794 (but not 'Alknomook' as is claimed). Rosina Emmet seems to have revised a broadside copy to form "Pretty Peggy', 1880, which is traditional as "Marching to Fernario/Fenario" (Scarce Songs 1 on my wesite).

Women authored som songs and composed

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 06:05 PM

Elinor; I do hope I can help you but as other mudcats have mentioned. your's is a subject that is both wide and somewhat confusing. Libby Cotten would fall in to the category as would Maybelle Carter, Mary Larkin Judy Collins, Triona Ni Donmhail, Delores Keane and Lorena McKennitt(sp). Again, unfortunately traditional to the purist mean anonymous although by law any tune that has been in public domain may qualify. Generally this means in a legal sense that whoever wrote the song has been dead for at least fifty years and there are no copyrights in force. Good luck in your search and if I can be of further help please don't hesitate to contact me.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 06:33 PM

Trying to trace who wrote sonmgs is probably a pretty uphill struggle - on the other hand, finding out who were the repositaries of traditional songs from whom particular versions of the songs were first collected, and who were the collectors who got hold of the songs - that is more readily achievable. And much of the time these crucial roles have been filled by women.

The distinction between making up a song and retrieving it from memory and passing it on, is not as straightforward as people think. I think most singers when they can't remember a line or a verse, will cobble something together. And when you don't feel comfortable with a line, you find yourself remembering it differently. So I think it's true that many of the elements of traditional singing that are most precious may have been shaped by the person from whom they were collected.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 07:32 PM

Back in 1960, Lori Holland recorded a fine album for Folkways: 'Irish Folk Songs for Women' Folkways FG 3518. She had previously recorded 'Scottish Folk Songs for Women' Folkways FG 3517 - I don't have a copy of that. Her aim was to present songs 'which because of their very nature would be especially attractive to and more meaningfully performed by women'. The songs she chose for the Irish album were:

I know my love
My bonny boy
If I was a blackbird
She moved through the fair
The jackets green
The light of the moon
The patriot mother
The next market day
Come oh love
I know where I'm going
The lowlands of Holland
Mrs McGrath
The tri-coloured ribbon
The royal blackbird

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 08:26 PM

She moved through the fair?

Well Padraic Colum's song is a great song, whoever sings it, but it's definitely seen through the eyes of a man, and I can't see how it's a song which "because of (its) very nature would be especially attractive to and more meaningfully performed by women".

Unless there's a suggestion that men aren't capable of singing sensitive songs.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: sophocleese
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 08:42 PM

There was an earlier thread about Helen Creighton and how she collected songs in Nova Scotia. One of the points raised was the difficulty of collecting bawdy songs. They tend to get passed down and along in the same gender, most people don't start conversations with complete strangers by telling a dirty joke, at least there is one taxi driver I know of and a few comedians...So I suspect that you may get a more representative view of what women were singing if you check out collections gathered by women. Any woman in the past who wanted to create a song and pass it on could probably do so if it was not too wildly unconventional and she had children, other family or neighbours who would listen and learn. Simply because there was a societal bias against women trying to live by artistic endeavour did not mean that ALL husbands, fathers, brothers and sons would not listen and enjoy.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: sophocleese
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 08:48 PM

A person you might like to listen to and possibly contact would be Eileen McGann a Canadian woman who sings traditional songs, writes her own, and has a lot of learning in her background.

She has a website here http://www.canuck.com/~jscown/mcgann

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Stewie
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 04:45 AM

McGrath, I tend to agree with you there. She gives no rationale for its inclusion apart from saying that she learned it from the singing of Margaret Barry. She did also comment that it was usually considered 'too delicate' for street singing, yet the version she sang came from one of Ireland's greatest street singers - Margaret Barry - who, in turn, apparently learned it from a John MacCormack phonograph recording!

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 11:14 AM

Frankie Armstrong and others put together a women folk song book years ago, with a lot of info. IIRR, as far as trad. material is concerned it was more about the treatment of women within the songs (mostly written by men, presumably). Still, try to find it.
Mary Brooksbank is an interesting author, but early 20C, I believe. - Susanne

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Arkie
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM

Please don't overlook the roll women have played in passing the traditional song on to the next generation. As has already been pointed out, women sang lulabyes and sang while doing housework and outside work as well, and for the pre-airwave media the music was an important entertainment. If you could somehow search the Smithsonian recordings they include many field recordings of female singers who were often fairly well known in their community for their songs. Emma Dusenberry of Mena, Arkansas was one of the singers recorded by the Smithsonian. A couple of other Arkansas singers are Almeda Riddle, who achieved some fame in the 60's as a ballad singer when she performed at Newport and other folk festivals. She recorded at least three lps and maybe more, and Ollie Gilbert. Ollie, Aunt Ollie, as she was know around Stone County, Arkansas did not receive the recognition awarded to Almeda, but she was well known locally for her vast repertoire. She is included on vol. 7 of Rounder's series of Southern Mountain music. Some contemporary women who are continuing the ballad tradition are Margaret Nelson of Chicago, Judy Cook of Northern Virginia, Molly Andrews of Northern Virginia, Carol Ponder of North Carolina, and Shelia Adams Taylor of North Carolina. Add Sara Grey, who is now living in Scotland, I believe. Shelia sings a lot of songs which were handed down through her family and would be an excellent person to interview about the role of women in music in the North Carolina Blue Ridge Mountains.

A.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Peg
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 12:56 PM

i am following this thread with interest... thanks for this post:

Back in 1960, Lori Holland recorded a fine album for Folkways: 'Irish Folk Songs for Women' Folkways FG 3518. She had previously recorded 'Scottish Folk Songs for Women' Folkways FG 3517 - I don't have a copy of that. Her aim was to present songs 'which because of their very nature would be especially attractive to and more meaningfully performed by women'. The songs she chose for the Irish album were:

I know my love My bonny boy If I was a blackbird She moved through the fair The jackets green The light of the moon The patriot mother The next market day Come oh love I know where I'm going The lowlands of Holland Mrs McGrath The tri-coloured ribbon The royal blackbird

--Stewie.

i love all of these songs and perform a number of them myself. I disagree with whoever posted later that She Moved Through the Faire is not very suitable for a woman to sing; just because a song is not entirely in a female first person address (we all know many songs that jump around to different points of view, from omniscient to he to she in one song! like Banks of Claudy for example) does not mean it can't be sung by a woman...Loreena McKennitt's recording of this song is very beautiful...
Some think "If I was a blackbird" is only meant for a man but in the version I sing (and that I heard another female sing) it is clear very successful to begin "I am a young maiden my story is sad, etc." and in fact I have heard the song was originally written in this way...though I do not know the exact history...
that said, I do very much agree that male singers who would attempt this song are just as likely to be warm sensitive guys as any other traditional singer...who, granted, are not all softies or feminists, and quite a few of whom are arrogant jerks...like their female counterparts ;~o

peg

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Doctor John
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 01:23 PM

Try Sara Ogan Gunning (Aunty Molly Jackson's half sister) and Sis Cunningham, a member of the Almanac Singers. I believe that Sara Gray has now returned to the States. Dr John

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 01:23 PM

Many years ago I sang a duet with a lovely girl called Jane. She and I sang a song by Melanie called, Save the Night. The only line that needed changing was my part

eg. D:While I am playing Husband you will play the wife J:While you are playing husband I will play the wife

Otherwise a sensitive song either sex could sing with comfort. Here are the lyrics if anyone wants to try it. Sorry I do not have the music but do have the recording. According to many I am neither soft nor sensitive..but more than a few people had guilty looks and tears in their eyes when we finished it...Long time ago mates.

Save the night
If I could find the feeling I could save the light
That lit our nights before
Before we knew the reason saving nights were for

Save the light
The light that made us sure
We'd never find that light at any other door

Overdone...
I'm sure this song I'm singing has been sung
But I'm gonna sing it again
Save the past cause the futures a question

on your own
Remember when you are alone it's great
This feeling of being secure
But I always thought there'd be more
But I always thought there'd be more

To save the life
While you are playing husband I will play the wife
But sometimes I'll slip away
I'll pretend that it all can grow another way
Sometimes I'll slip away
I'll pretend life and dream that I can save the day

Save the night
la da la la.......

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Hollowfox
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 06:56 PM

Unless you're doing a really huge paper, you might want to narrow the topic by country, time period, or whatever. A subject like this can become a lifelong career. A book that might be useful is No author in my library's online card catalog. You can get it on interlibrary loan, if nowhere else. You might find Peggy Seeger's website useful: . I wasn't able to find websites for Frankie Armstrong (British), Faith Petric (885 Clayton Street, San Franisco, California, also the address for the San Fransisco Folk Music Club, and it used to be where they kept their excellent folk library), or Rosalie Sorrels (she lives in or near Boise. Idaho). Also, see what books, etc are available through Folk-Legacy, Front Hall Records, Sing Out Magazine websites. Good luck, gotta run.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: Hollowfox
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 06:56 PM

Unless you're doing a really huge paper, you might want to narrow the topic by country, time period, or whatever. A subject like this can become a lifelong career. A book that might be useful is No author in my library's online card catalog. You can get it on interlibrary loan, if nowhere else. You might find Peggy Seeger's website useful: . I wasn't able to find websites for Frankie Armstrong (British), Faith Petric (885 Clayton Street, San Franisco, California, also the address for the San Fransisco Folk Music Club, and it used to be where they kept their excellent folk library), or Rosalie Sorrels (she lives in or near Boise. Idaho). Also, see what books, etc are available through Folk-Legacy, Front Hall Records, Sing Out Magazine websites. Good luck, gotta run.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From:
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 07:07 PM

This is a wonderful thread. Thanks, Eleanor.

On to your first question. I think one of the places you might check out would be the School of Scottish Studies. They have an excellent collection of the work songs of the Scottish Gael. In that collection, you can find songs, such as the waulking/fulling/milling songs. Waulking songs were those songs sung by women while they were fulling/shrinking the woolen cloth. The process could take a while, and was onerous and boring. To make things go easier, the women would sing. Many of the old songs, some of which have been dated back several hundred years, were composed by the women, on subjects which were important to them.

Try to stick with what you find on the Scottish side, since in America (at least in Cape Breton), men were allowed to join at the milling table. (Some women say it was because they wanted to know about what the women were doing.) So here in Cape Breton at least, other songs were brought into the tradition. Some of those songs which were particularly pointed against men were left to languish. Many of those songs were lost and other songs were brought in to fill the gap.

Check those songs out. They would have been a form of song (as well as other work songs), which women were especially interested in. Other cultures besides the Scottish one used songs of the sort.

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: raredance
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 09:01 PM

A great book that tells the story of a song collectors adventures and includes the songs she collected is "A Song Catcher in Southern Mountains, American Folk songs of British Ancestry" by Dorothy Scarborough (1937, Columbia University Press). Ms Scarborough was an Associate Professor of English at Columbia University in New York and she spent time collecting songs in the hills and moutains of Virginia and North Carolina.

Another excellent book on this topic is "Here's To The Women: 100 songs For And About American Women" by Hilda Wenner and Elizabeth Freilicher (1987, Syracuse University Press). There is backgound information for all the songs that includes historical setting, or biographical information about the subject of the song, or biographical information about the songwriter.

In the realm of the very obscure recording I offer "A Sampler of Michigan Women" 9 songs written and performed by Candace Anderson (1985 Hermonikher). The women honored run from the famous, Sojourner Truth, the not quite as famous, Josephine Carey a labor organizer, to the virtual unknown, Jenny Justine Jokala a cook in a looging camp in the UP.

rich r

Subject: RE: Doing research: need help!!
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 01 Mar 00 - 08:19 AM

You have picked a difficult subject...perhaps what you really need to do is come up with a precise research question...or narrow the topic somewhat . In any case, good luck and I hope you will share some of what you find. I think you might consider the Watersons, Frankie Armstrong and other contemporary women as having kept the music alive and well.