Folk Music and Politics

Subject: Folk Music and Politics
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM

Ewan MacColl once said that the folk club movement in England lost it's direction when it lost it's political content. Would anyone agree that the two finest song writers of the 20th century were Ewan MacColl and Woody Guthrie. Both overtly political writers. Folk song clubs need left wing politics to bring them back to life, unfortunately even the left wingers of today are right wing. [ for those unfamiliar with Ewan's political work, check out the CD ' Antiquities ] Peace and Love, Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 03:33 PM

KPBS just did a bit on a rising young Irish band who are one third trad, one third everything else and one third politics. They mix ska, West Indies and rock in with their Irish music and pepper it up with political voice -- I forget the group's name, darn it -- but they made the point thjat here weren't any politics in the music field when they formed up so they decided they would grab the niche.

Risky decision, but it seems to be paying off, as they are drawing attention and getting gigs.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 03:51 PM

Well, Zander, I can not vouch for anyone being BEST, but I will have to agree with you, in that the political expresiveness of folk music gives it it's populist backbone, and it is democratic in it's appeal.

The bard of yore was often bannished because of this, and the dead endishness of the 60's was a bannishment of sorts also. There are those who would have you believe that sexy film stars, sports, and crime blotters are the REAL news, and that the (dis)empowerment of the populations of the world is but an unproven myth to be tucked away on some shelf along with those silly old songs that people used to sing together, when they had nothing better to do but sing about human freedom in the context of struggle, capital, and a richly endowed imagination blessed with images of peace, unity, and paradise. end of rant....ttr

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 04:34 PM

Choosing a song to sing, or making one up - either way it is about communication. You do it because you want to express yourself, get something across.

There are times, a lot of times, when what you want to say is easily seen as political. There are times when it's about things that may not be readily recognised as political, but are political, in a real sesne - "the personal is political". And there are times when songs are about things that aren't, at least at this point, political. (Anything can be political when the currents of the time dictate.)

At this time, I think the most important political thing about folk music isn't so much the content of the songs, it's the fact that essentially it exists outside the control of the entertainment industry, and stands for the power of people to own the music we make, and to use it as we choose to shape the world.

As for "the two finest song writers of the 20th century" -I think playing rankings like that is playing into the hands of the enertainment industry. Ewan MacColl and Woodie Guthrie were both fine song writers, and that's good enough. Perhaps the greatest thing about them is that they inspired other people to feel that they could use songs to say what they felt needed to be said, rather than just sitting back and applauding a performance as aesthetics and entertainment.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: pastorpest
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 04:56 PM

I agree with Ewan MacColl and with you, Zander! I sort of slid sideways into folk music from classical music. The initial attraction was seeing and feeling history from the bottom up. That strong attraction remains. As a fourth/fifth gereration Canadian and Bristish Isles mongrel knowing why ancestors came to the new world and feeling why helps a lot. Traditional folk songs are windows into that history. Today's world has its rich and poor, powerful and exploited. We need ever new Woody Guthries and Ewan Maccolls. I regret that usually the justice verses of "This Land Is Your Land" are omitted when I hear it sung. Prophets are true patriots: royalty and heads of state rarely are. Lose the passion for justice and folk music loses its soul.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 05:19 PM

Maybe folk music changed because liberal politics did. It's an entirely subjective opinion, but I get the feeling that when I was young, the Left was about equality of opportunity, i. e. giving every person the chance to achieve to the limits of his/her/its abilities, regardless of the social class or economic condition they were born into, but that now it's about equality of condition, which requires eliminating "elitism" by artificially propping up the less abled (which is all right up to a point) and holding down the exceptionally able, so they won't achieve too much and make the less able feel bad.

This is certainly the way it appears to be working in public education, anyway.

Like I said, entirely subjective.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 05:50 PM

Folk music has always been about politics, on pretty much any level you choose. Generally Pop music has featured only one actual "complaint"; that being lost love (which is certainly a theme in folk music as well). I think it's the level of "danger" that changes constantly. In the 1950s Pete Seeger was considered "dangerous enough" to be hassled by the government, and yet today, even though his politics have changed little (there HAVE been changes) he's feted by virtually the same government. Simply he is perceived as "harmless". I suspect the real "danger" today comes from Pop music: witness how people react to Marylin Manson and many black rap groups.

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 07:03 PM

Essential difference Rick- 60's Folk radicalism was dangerous to an established Political Order, but embodied a specific moral and ethical stance, though an alternate to the existing one. Manson and Rap are essentially nihilistic. The similarity lies in the rebellion against authority.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 08:04 PM

Nobody thought there was going anything radical was going to happen back in the 60s until it did. Nobody thought there was going to be a student upsrising in Paris, till it happened. Nobody thought the Soviet Empire was going to crash, till it happened. I could go on for ever. Looking back of course they all say it was inevitable...

These things happen when the time is right. Goes in waves. Next wave could be due any time. The songs will be there as well. The songs don't stir up the trouble, but they can encourage the people involved in the struggle. And a lot of the time, they are songs that were there in advance, left over from the last time. Wobbly songs in Woodie Guthrie's time, Woodie's songs in the Sixties, Ewan MacColl with skills honed in the 30s...

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 08:19 PM

....and the tried and true, sure-fire method to crush any threat to the established political order is to welcome it into the capitalist fold. Beads, bells, Flower Power and peace symbols connoted solidarity, unity, and general disillusionment with the status quo before being repackaged and marketed to the masses as a fashion statement. Once the money started rolling in, the ideals of a socio-cultural revolution were called into question as fat cats got fatter. Rappers are literally beating us over the head with messages that the situation for young urban blacks in the inner city is getting critical, but tennis shoe companies, the makers of warm-up jackets, soda-pop manufacturers, and some of the rappers themselves have subsumed those apocalyptic visions in pursuit of greenbacks.

Neil Lowe

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 06:33 AM

Neil

We do seem to play into the hands of those, who would destroy the critical elements by making money out of it, thus seducing both the singer and their audience. For even those of us who welcome the concept of all folk producing their own music and stating their own views, are apt to look-up to and create 'stars' of those whose talents we admire.

We are then super critical of them for 'selling-out'?

If only we could just accept that it is the music and the message that is more important than who is saying it. We can and should recognise our fine musicians but we do not need to 'hype' them and their 'products', in the same manner as other forms of music do. It may be necessary for professional musicians to earn money from their music but is not necessary that folk music be thought of as an industry that exists only to support them.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 09:35 AM

Why do I get involved in these discussions??? I think what I object to is the way folk music is used to advance a left wing political cause. Mention to any one that you are interested in "Folk music" It brands you as a a fellow travler. Lenin Said those who are USED to further the "Cause" are "usefull idiots" I fear how many young people are used to Further the cause Not knowing what the cause is all about.and who will benifit from it.I am reminded of the line in the "Red Flag" "You can shove the workers up your A--Ive got the foremans job at last" Was it old Winnie Churchill who said "If when you are young and not a liberal you have no heart, If when you are old and not a conservitive then you have no brains". The reason I still love traditional old timey music after 50 + years is For the story and the historical content not for the political message Oh well I've put in my tickies [2 cents] worth

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Exasperated
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 10:49 AM

Allan S:

Oh, bugger off back into the arms of Maggie Thatcher and her Pinochet-loving crew, will ya? Enough of the pseudo-quotations & other Tory BS.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 12:14 PM

Hi Allan. Hah, hah, THAT'S why we all get into these things...so we can get flamed by the "anonymously exasperated"!

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 03:43 PM

Who is smartest, lets us see........ Is it you, or is it me?......... I am coffee, they are tea......... I own the means, they are free..........

It has come to my attention that the content of the ballad is supposed to be impartial, or if this is a point of veiw song, it ought to be presented impartially.

Otherwise, opinions may impede our success at presenting the historical realities that get lost in the fray......

wrong or right, it's still a fight

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 04:08 PM

My dear Fellow Traveller AllanS
(and you know acording to your FBI file, you are a fellow traveller for hanging around Mudcat, a well known communist front group, the proof of which is we all listen to that Red Folk music!) Stop fighting it, come out of the closit, old man, You are a red, you listen to the peoples music, not the music of the class that owns you! You will be much more happy when you realize that you are not one of the class the torries catter too, and I know your not, why? BECAUSE you are listing to this working class garbadge we all love so much! :-) Just pulling your leg, of course, but I will give you my old and know late, fathers line, in answer to Winne, after going down in the mines at thirteen, being a sharecropper, a Shakespearian Actor, best selling novelist in the 50s, Theartre owner, playwrite, Producer and generally successfull worker. Said me ol dad, If you arent a socialist by 20, youve no soul, and if you give up your ideals by thirty, you didnt understand socialism to begin with. You have to be a worker to understand why Churchil could never understand socialism.
Stop waiting for the lottery to lift you out of the working class, and realize where your class intrest lies, and sing about it, and well, thats folk music!
Steadfastly WOBBLIE!
Yours in the One Big Union (InOBU)
Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 04:45 PM

Is folk music left wing because in some way it equates to the mythology of the last forty years that we have allowed to redefine what it means to be left wing? I think that the nexus is that folk music is the remnant of music that has not been corrupted into meaningless drivel fit only for the marketplace...it still has value as a means of delivering a message that, when people pay attention and listen, resonates with them. Creating a message then delivering it in a way that people identify with, that empowers them to regain so much of what has been lost in the last twenty or so years, is the most important job we have. What I think we have lost is:

the sense that people acting together can make a difference

politics is not inherently bad.

individuallism is a myth...with few exceptions, great accomplishments are the result of concerted effort.

corporatism, or capitalism does not = democracy.

The rising tide will raise all the boats. What we have seen for the last ten years is not the rising tide, it is a dramatic transfer of wealth, from working people to the heads of corporate america.

now if I could put that to music....

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 05:51 PM

Music is very useful for creating solidarity within a community, which is why folk music has always been a good tool for lefties--with or without the music, there was a community who were focussed on a cause--and a good song could communicate a view better than anything else--the thing is, music can't create an activist community--

Right now, the so called left is really fragmented--there are so many issues that people are focussed on, but no single, overriding issue that is common to everyone--That is the real problem, not the commercial usurpation--

If anything, the radical folk legacy lives among performers and songwriters, because political expression is now an accepted option for bands and performers(folk and non folk)in a way that it wasn't before--

It is almost expected that pop entertainers in certain genres have a "political" message, or some searing social commentary, and a lot of them fake it, and wear their AIDS ribbons or whatever the cause of the month is--which is unfortunate, but at least it is out there--

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 06:29 PM

I'm what most people would think is left in terms of politics. Paul Goodman (I think - it just might have been Noam Chomsky - anyway, one of the good guys) used to describe himself as "a Neolithic Conservative", and that's a phrase I like. I don't much like a lot of these modern inventions like governments and money and armies...

And since I like the kind of music you can make without making a huge fuss about it, and handing it over to overpayed entrepreneurs and professionals, that's one way I express my politics. When I sing I've got the same politics as when I write or when I talk.

But I think we mistake ourselves badly if we assume that folk music and left wing politics (or whatever you call it)necessarily go together. Out in Serbia patriotic music is big - and though Milosevic uses the word Socialist, so did Hitler, and it means something different with those kind of people.

When they were organising the bicentenary for the French Revolution they ran into a bit of trouble, because they wanted lots of traditional musicians playing, and they found that a lot of the best from Brttany weren't at all keen, because they didn't much reckon the Fench Revolution.

Actually I reckon they were quite right, because the French Revolution was about as sympathetic to Brittany as the English Revolution and Cromwell were to Ireland. But the point is that, even when it comes to up to date things, like attitudes towards immigration and so forth, traditional musicians are often pretty right-wing.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 10:54 PM

Well, McGrath--here in the states, folk music and leftist politics went together--as to the Balkans, as a card carrying Balkan music freak, I can attest to the fact that the whole National Folk Ensemble/People's music thing was fostered and promoted by the various Communist Parties, you can't get very much more left than that--

As a matter of fact, my only dealings with the KGB (at least that I know of) were in negotiating for musical instruments and dance costumes with touring Ethnic music groups--

This is not to say that the Communist Block Countries were ever Communist, but that is another discussion...

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:40 AM

This is a fascinating thread! I am continually impressed and amazed by the insights offered by people like McGrath and M.Ted. For my part, agree with McGrath that, while folk music and left-wing politics have been "fellow travelers" from time to time, the music can exist and thrive with our without an alliance with a particular political faction.

Music can be an effective way to put across a political message that engages the mind, the emotions, and the body. That makes it a pretty powerful tool, as political people of all stripes know only too well. Since political folks often want to co-opt the music for their own purposes, I think musicians have to be prepared to resist. Sometimes that means resisting the forces of the right, sometimes it means resisting the forces of the left. In the 1960s there were a number of popular musicians who grew to resent being co-opted by the liberal establishment -- Bob Dylan certainly did, as did some of the greatest rock'n'roll musicians (witness John Lennon's "Revolution" or Pete Townshend's "Won't Get Fooled Again").

In my opinion the music is at its best when it remains independent of political and religious movements. It can certainly express political sentiments, and sometimes these fit neatly into the context of some group's political agenda. But it should never be subservient to a non-musical "movement," regardless of how legitimate that movement's goals might be.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:08 PM

Whistlestop-- I agree with your point here though, I don't know that it was the "liberal establishment" that was advocating the sort of violence, Maoism, and general intolerance that "Revolution" seemed to speak out against--and, I remember that there were quite a few who felt that that song seemed to mouth all the "Liberal establishement" cliches--

As to the co-opting, I think musicians are just as inclined to jump on a political bandwagon as the otherway around--it took me years to forgive Sammy Davis, Jr. for kissing Richard Nixon--

Bruce Springsteen did tell the Conservative Republicans (was it the Reagan people or the Bush people?) where to go when they asked to use "Born in the USA", which is better that Blues hero, B.B. King, who recorded an album with Lee Harvey Atwater, which was Atwater's reward for the despicable Willie Horton campaign that elected George Bush-

The combination of "folk" music and politics is nothing new, the 14th century Flagellants sang religious songs in the their native languages (a revolutionary act in itself, since Church hymns were in Latin) as part of their public religious processions, during which the beat themselves bloody in a religious frenzy--

Of course, Martin Luther also wrote his hymns to folk melodies--

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: SDShad
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:13 PM

M.Ted, your comment about Springsteen reminds me also that some Republican campaign--Reagan's, I believe--asked John Mellencamp if they could use "Pink Houses." He declined, and commented "I don't think they actually listened to the song"--it would seem they just noticed the catchy "ain't that America" bits.

Funny no one's mentioned Bob Roberts yet,

Chris

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Ringer
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:34 PM

As far as I'm concerned, there's no relationship between folk music & politics, because if it's political it ain't folk.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:37 PM

I utterly reject the concept that folk musicians are rankable on some intuitive scale of worth, I also believe that, based on what I know of hime, neither would Guthrie (I cannot speak for Macoll). To suggest that you could take a universe that includes Rev Gary Davis, Blind Blake, as well as Guthrie, Macoll, et al., and somehow line them up in order of value doesn't even pass the giggle test.

As far as Macoll's focus on politics as an the essential element for folk music, I have this to say. Politics is just one critical axis of the the human potentiality, there are others, just as important and fully able to stand alone as a theme for a great body of art. The greatest artists work the entire spectrum of the human experience. Van Gogh's greatness lies in the fact that his vision and sensitivites encompassed both the social and political underpinnings of The Potatoe Eaters as well as works like The Starry Night that were purely revolutionary vision; based on completely orignal ideas about the translation of human perceptions through the medium of painting.

So in the end it depends on what Macoll really meant. If his arguement was that the worth of folk music flows from a narrow focus on politics, then he was indulging in self important nonsense. If his arguement was that folk music must keep a scope sufficiently broad to include politics thought, then he is right on the money.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:42 PM

I guess I missed the boat. It seems to me the best and longest lasting folk music has little to do with politics. Green Grow the Lilacs, Lorena, My Old Kentucky Home, Acres of Clams, Shenedoah, song after song after song ... all folk are devoid of political statements.

It is true that many recent songsters have pushed their political points-of-view through folk and folk style songs, but there certainly does not appear to me that there is any natural link between folk and politics - left wing or otherwise.

And I must have been living in a different world these last 10 years. Where did this massive re-distribution of wealth take place? More people in the US are much much better off today then they were 10 years ago; low inflation, maximum employment. More opportunities are open to those who wish to take advantage of them. We have a very healthy economy. We have effective and truly representitve governmental and judicial processes - and those of who participate in those processes appreciate them, even when our own points-of-view don't win the day.

I like the bumper sticker my sons brought home a few years ago that says, "Keep your damn politics out of my music!"

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:49 PM

"politics is not inherently bad."

A system that tells us we have to vote for Bush or Gore, and have no other choice, is definitely inherently bad.

"individuallism is a myth...with few exceptions, great accomplishments are the result of concerted effort."

Anyone who can say that and mean it should be shut in solitary confinement for a year with no entertainment or diversion of any sort except a copy of Atlas Shrugged.

In my humble (haw!) opinion.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 02:05 PM

I agree that a system that tells we have to vote for Gore or Bush would be bad. Thank God we've had quite a few others to choose from before we got these two, and we still have choices beyond them; even now.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 02:38 PM

I am not sure if people are saying that they don't believe there is a connection between leftist politics and the folk music/folk club/Coffeehouse movement, or they don't understand why there is a connection, or what--

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 02:38 PM

I reread my previous statement, and see that I could have been more precise... but, my suggestion that "politics is not inherently bad", is meant to address the vast number of people who don't participate in the process(not just the elections but the whole process of confronting issues) I see the ever shrinking numbers as part of the reason that we have to choose between a bush and a gore...

as for my solitary confinement with Ayn Rand...I'd pluck my eyes out, first...I suppose you might argue that invention could be an individual accomplishment...but I rest my case that progress has more often been the result of collaborative, not individual effort.

My comments about the redistribution of wealth are verifiable. There may be more work, and more visible consumption, but the ratio of "earnings" between those who work in this economy and those who run the economy are dramatically different.

In the early 1970's the ratio was around 7 to 1, in the mid ninty's the average CEO's salary is 400 times the average wage earner's. In that same time period the value of the dollar has dropped...adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage in 1973 would be equivalent to nearly ten dollars per hour.

In the same time period, workers in the US are working more hours per year, at more jobs. And more decent paying jobs are being moved off-shore.

Are these left wing ideas? What if a singer wrote a song about them? How would that differ from thousands if not millions of songs that address in some way the manifold issues of "social justice".

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 03:06 PM

Folk music and the left, historically, come out of similar demographics. People who migrate to the right are those who usually have something to conserve. Business intersts, for example. Socialism, traiditonally, focuses on the larger numbers of people whose primary concerns are simpler, more basic things like being decent people, raising children, and respecting individuals because they are good, not because they have money, fame or medals. But the fact that the roots often intertwine doesn't mean there's an identity between folk music and socialism, any more than music publishers are necessarily republicans. The whole left-wing to right-wing spectrum is, to my mind a bad measuring tool which does not match the reality toward which it is aimed, like using a barometer to estimate the lengths of roofbeams.

Maybe you could make a general statement that our richest legacy of genuine folk music comes from moments when people are free of authoritarian control -- such around a tavern table or a hearth, or fighting an excess of authority. But even that would be debatable.

Two thoughts at a penny each = $.02.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 03:35 PM

Well, we've got a variety of perspectives here, which is a good thing. Not to make this another "definitional" thread (a la "what is folk music"), but to some extent it depends on your definition of politics. If you sing about your socialist brothers and sisters manning the barricades to throw out the capitalists and make this a worker's paradise, I think that's political. But how about if you sing about a hungry child? To give an example, I think most of us would agree that Dylan's "Only A Pawn In Their Game" is a political song; but what about North Country Blues, or Chimes of Freedom?

By the way, it was Reagan who mde reference to Springsteen in a speech during his 1984 campaign for reelection; Springsteen didn't appreciate it. I believe he was also approached by Chevrolet about using his "Born In The USA" in ads for Chevy trucks; Springsteen said no, so they settled on Bob Seger's "Like A Rock".

M.Ted, I agree with you that Lennon's "Revolution" may not have been the best example I could have used. However, I'm surprised that you (or anybody) ever actually had a high regard for Sammy Davis Jr.'s integrity. And northfolk/al cholger, I have to agree that few prospects are more horrifying than being sentenced to solitary confinement with Ayn Rand.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Anthony
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:05 PM

Dear folks,

Not to fan the "flame" too much, but as a fairly conservative Republican (USA variety, that is), I find it a little disheartening that, in a lot of circles, folkies who refuse to climb on the liberal bandwagon are somehow stigmatized.

My father -- a lifelong Republican whose grandfather fought "for Lincoln" in the Civil War -- learned how to play guitar thumbstyle by listening to the Carter Family on WSM/Nashville over a hand-built "crystal set." He also memorized dozens of old country, "folk" and work songs during the 20s and 30s, and started passing them on on to me when I was barely big enough to hold his old arch top.

Musically, therefore, (though certainly not talent-wise) I figure that that makes me about as authentic as Norman Blake or anyone else in these corrupt, urbanized times. But just because I take a dim view of higher taxes, "equal opportunity" quotas, the federal departments of Education and Housing & Urban Development, and most social welfare programs, my music is somehow tainted.

I understand that part of this is because folk music is by definition "from the people," and that a lot of social programs are perceived as reaching out to the little man -- or little person, as I suppose we must say in this oppressively inoffensive age.

But from where comes this institutionalized notion in folky circles that all pain and suffering is somehow either "the guv'ment's fault" (to paraaphrase Roger Miller) or promulgated by evil corporate types who have the audacity to try and make a buck in order to buy nice homes and send their kids to good schools. This is evil?

It's the same sort of logic used by eco-freaks wishing to defame hunters, when in fact -- in the U.S. at least -- there would have been no conservation movement in the first place were it not for money and support from the hunting community. Ducks Unlimited -- a group filled with conservatives, by the way -- has done far more for wetland conservation than the Sierra Club, Earth First and the Green Party combined. The same -- and I'll get flamed for this -- can be said of the NRA.

Shouldn't folkies, rather than embracing the outdated sentiments of "Who's Side are You On" and "Talking Union Blues," celebrate instead the virtues of hard work, self-reliance and entrepreneurship? Aren't these the very pioneer qualities memorialized in so much of our traditional music?

I think what the liberal folksinging mafia really believes is that anyone who is creative, artistic, sensitive, intelligent and free-thinking enough to appreciate roots music must by default be just like them or considered a danger to society.

Anyone see the flaw in that logic?

I do, and it is embodied in this cold truth: Liberals like to think about what - according to them - is best for "the people." And that's a generality of which to be wary because it implies that the rights of "we" are more important than the freedom of "me." Conservatives, on the other hand, like to think for themselves.

The Constitution of the United States -- and to a lesser extent the Declaration of Independence -- are after all documents chiefly designed to protect personal property, not social safety nets, and certainly not a powerful federal establishment.

Apropos of nothing, Pete Seeger once claimed to have started writing a "conservative" protest song (quite a stretch for Pete) but said later he couldn't get past the first line:

"But the bast**ds never had to meet a paaaaay-roll!"

Peter was kidding, of course, but the phrase does have a certain ring to it.

Hope I haven't made anybody too mad. Just wanted to make a couple of points. And by the way, whatever your political colors, don't forget to vote this November. The voice of the polls is the purest folk music of all.

Best wishes to all, TONY

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:26 PM

Clearly written and well said, Tony. Ithink folk music does a great deal to revitalize rational thinking thathas gotten stuck in knee-jerk categories, because it brings back experience to a human scale, and lays bare the consequences of stupidity. But the consequences of stupidity are just as stupid whether it is because one man lets a reaping machine swallow his son's shoulder, as happened toa farmer I know, as it is when a management blunder or avariciousness causes the shutdown of 500 jobs. The scale and the power are definitely larger but the stupidity is just as stupid. The reason management and gummint are common targets is because often their stupidity is magnified by scale.

Condemning a man who builds up a business that makes a profit and feeds a hundred families because he is a "manager" is about as stupid as condemning a farmer who happens to have been born a halfbreed, a miner who is crosseyed, or a president in a wheelchair because he is a "crip"...it is simply a form of insanity, irrational thinking with pieces left out and importances misplaced.

What is ugly is the irrationality of stupid thinking, parasitism, venality, and all the other things in Pandora's box, and they are ugly whether they show up high or low, left or right. It behooves anyone using a public voice to try to identify the correct targets for his energies.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Andy A.
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:41 PM

Yes, folkies and left-wingers tend to be one and the same. This makes for both bad music and bad politics. It seems like a lot of left-wingers like to become "outraged" over whatever: rich/poor struggles, homophobia, rasicm and those good liberal issues. But producing songs like, say, "Pieces of You" only serve to lay blame on big bad capitalist Republicans and alienate much of the potential audience. Jewel, Pete Seeger, and Woody Guthrie come across as Socialist whining. It isn't fun to listen to. Bad music. Furthermore, if you want to change the world, you have to deal with the world first. A lot of folkies miss this because they have no idea how far out into left field their opinions are. No popular support. Bad politics. Remember that modern "folk" music is not traditional, and that the tradition belongs to all who have received it, not just liberals and hippies.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 05:02 PM

Amos said: "Folk music and the left, historically, come out of similar demographics. People who migrate to the right are those who usually have something to conserve."

But, says I, the folk music revival, and you see it all the time here at the Mudcat, is very much about conservation and not letting musical traditions die.

Much of the "leftist" politics associated with folk music has to do with conservation. Think of the enviornmental movement, for example. It's all about conservation and restoration. Or the peace movement, it's about conserving life. Or various movements for social justice. They're about conserving (or achieving) human dignity.

It seems to me that people on the left also have something to conserve.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Kara
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 05:09 PM

Folk music will always be linked to politics as repression makes the best songwriters, people who really have something to say. " Don't worry be happy" also proves that the theory is true in reverse. Folk music in the Balkans as far as I could see when I was there, 8 years ago had been completely kidnapped by the state and was only available in expensive tourist restaurants where "real gypsies" who were not allowed to go anywhere played the same government approved sets night after night. Two friends and myself went into a bar in a small village well of not far from the Hungarian, Yugoslavian boarder and asked if we could play some music in the bar. The barmaid informed us that they normally watched Tele. In fact they had MTV on a huge screen all night. Lines of disillusioned middle aged blokes eating lard and watching scantily clad blond girl writhing around singing. Well the bar lady said it would be all right if we played in the garden. It did not take long before most of the bar was in the garden and then they decided to turn the TV off and we were invited back in and offered lard. Every one wanted to go to America (it may have been the scantily clad girls of maybe they were just sick of lard) A man who had left earlier returned with a dark looking bloke who listened attentively as we played. When I sang a Hungarian song I had learned, he began to cry. When we had finished the song, the man who had brought him to the bar told me that his friend played the fiddle so I gave him my fiddle to play. Now it was my turn to cry. He played only one turn and in it expressed entirely what it is to be repressed. To be not allowed to play folk music. Not long after the police arrived, brandishing guns and threatened to arrest everyone so we thanked the people for the lard and got on our way. As for the best song writers of the 20th Century, I'd say Jimmy Begin, Tit Willow and that bloke from Sieze the Day, but as you may not have ever heard anything by any of these people unless you have meet then in person, I'll go with Shane MacGowan, and Bob Marley, both lads with a lot to say.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 05:30 PM

Hi there Bald Eagle (if you're still around). 'Bout the song "The Cutty Wren". Do you think it's not political, or not a folk song? Do you even know it?

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Bert
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 05:35 PM

Hey Tony, do you have any songs about - higher taxes, "equal opportunity" quotas, the federal departments of Education and Housing & Urban Development, and most social welfare programs?
Us Lefties often find things to criticize in the same list.
Also, many of can see that there are two sides to the hunting issue. Many's the time I've eaten 'Bambi-burgers' and as a meat eater I can't criticize killing animals for food. Now killing just for 'trophies' that's waste, and I think it's wrong.

But I found that 'the virtues of hard work, self-reliance and entrepreneurship' didn't help a whole lot when I was out of work.

There are political songwriters out there today, though; Tom Paxton pokes fun at politicians of both sides. And he even gives workshops on the subject of political songwriting.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Kara
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 05:41 PM

higher taxes, "equal opportunity" quotas, the federal departments of Education and Housing & Urban Development, and most social welfare programs

these are not desperate enough subjects for a decent folk song. but even as I type song come to mind on these subjests. In the Getto. Seems to cover nmost of them.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 05:55 PM

Conserving a heritage is a different sort of thing than conserving your current portfolio, I think you'll agree -- in fact it calls for a different kind of policy -- for example, arts grants instead of tax cuts. In the absenceof rampant stupidity these things work themselves out somehow( he said optimistically).

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Kara
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:04 PM

But are art grants and Tax cuts the sort of things you want to write songs about?

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:20 PM

"Furthermore, if you want to change the world, you have to deal with the world first.

When I'm singing a song, I'm not trying to change the words, any more or less than when I'm talking.It's the same person when I'm talking or singing, the same politics, the same concerns.

I might be hoping to encourage people who think the same way I do, I might be hoping to let some people who don't think the same way I do understand my views understand them a bit better.

Sometimes singing might feed into something else, like a march or a demonstration or as picket. The same way carrying a banner might be. The songs are going to reflect the politics of the occasion. Orange marches have banners too, and songs and folk music. They aren't the kind of songs I sing or the kind of marches I go on.

What I'm getting at, singing songs and playing music isn't something added on to a human being, and nor are the important things that get called "political" (as opposed to what fat cat clamberfs there way onto the gravy train), they are both as natural as breathing.

One more point - the kind of things that get labelled as "leftist and "political" are often things which not really anything of the kind. Politics should be about things like how society is organised, how taxes are levied and paid, what things need to be arranged collectively, and how people can make sure they are run well and fairly. There's a lot of room for disagreement over these things.

But is being opposed to racism "politics"? Is being angry when police whom we employ misuse their power, and then cover up for each other "politics"? Resisting injustice and oppression is more basic than politics. So is making a judgement about moral issues like war and killing, and standing up for it - and on all those things yiou will find people who are "left wing" and "right wing" side by side. Probably singing "We shall overcome" at one time, maybe something else now.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:30 PM

Folk songs became political because singers--and collectors--were and are political. In the early 1900s, Henry Ford was sponsoring American song and dance collection and presentation as an affirmation of Middle class Middle West values; the early ballad collectors were preaching the WASP origins of American folk culture; the Communists in the 40s were busy selecting and creating "People's" songs and so on.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:42 PM

Whistlestop, whether you liked him or not, Sammy Davis, Jr. was one of the all-time greatest entertainersin the last couple of years a lot of his best stuff has been released on CD and, is especially worth listening to..He had a very rare knack of making every song sound like it was his best song,,,

Kara, you can tell a good story about any subject..

Subject: Lyr Add: A CONSERVATIVE'S LAMENT
From: GUEST,High and Lonesome
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:22 PM

Here's my suggestion for a right-wing folk song:

A CONSERVATIVE'S LAMENT
(Or "Life's a Bitch When You're Rich")

I woke up one morning not long ago
Checked out the market on my IPO
My heart almost sputtered
When I discovered
I was suddenly loaded with dough, with dough,
I was suddenly loaded with dough

CHORUS: But life's a bitch when you're rich
And you have more than you can use
Cause you have to pay taxes,
Car payments on your Lexus,
And don't forget your country club dues.

I fired my housekeeper yesterday
She complained so much there was hell to pay
She wanted more money
But I told her "Honey,
I already pay you twenty dollars a day, a day.
I already pay you twenty dollars a day."

CHORUS

I laid off all our company's workers
They were a bunch of snot-nosed shirkers
Now our factory's in China
The work's done by minors
Kept in line by a phalanx of Gurkhas
Tough Gurkhas
Our middle managers now are all Gurkhas.

CHORUS

I used to worry about the poor
The lame, the elderly, what they had in store.
But now I just dream of
A brand new scheme of
Making money and how to make more
Make more
I need money and then I'll need more.


Okay, it isn't very good, but I guess that's my point. There aren't conservative or right-wing folk singers because their songs would stink.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:28 PM

Man oh MAN! This is getting fun, iznt!?
First of all, TONY! No real leftist is gonna get mad at you, in my estimation, cause you make your points well and without personal invective. I bet you and I and a couple of my lefty worker pals from Belfast and New York would have a great time in a pub, and though we would disagree on lots, like the governments obligation to return to workers, through taxation enough of what is taken by their bosses, that, when the steel industry becomes the steal industry and robbs America of its ability to make steel, workers should have help from the government to buy and work the means of productions they built and compete with the Korean steel their former bosses are not shoveing down our throats if not up another hole - (sorry I get a bit carried away guys) But, I can tell the way you write, your are one of us, you are a worker. Unlike the post which accused some of us of learning our music from hippies etc. I went to work at 11 and went to sea at 16. I learned about music from my dad, who went down in the coal mines at 13 and worked until he could no longer stand on his feet. Thats where my music comes from, and with great love and respect for our brother, Jed, (Hey, Brother, I liked it when you where Liam - Good name!) that bumber sticker does not say much to me, when it says keep your politics out of my music. When, as a busker, I see a fellow working on the streets like me, Amadou, getting shot dead in a hail of bullits, and then, just last night, the same damn thing happens again, and the Mayor of New York, tries to paint a good man, who died when he thought he was resisting an agressive drug dealer, who turned out to be shoving an undercover drug cop, well, in the tradition of my dad, the only thing this poor worker can do is sing about it. And yes Tony VOTE, God bless you brother, even though we vote on different tickets.
InOBU
Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 08:18 PM

Larry's post is pretty well unanswerable, isn't it?  Kara (05:09 PM) and "High and Lonesome" have about said the rest.  Most of the discussion has been about America, and I can't comment on that with any real knowledge; I do know how things have been in the UK, though, and anybody who doesn't understand that the gap between Rich and Poor has grown frighteningly in the last 20 years is, frankly, living with their head up their arse.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:32 PM

Ya gotta love Larry!!!--

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:45 PM

... well Malcolm, I cannot address the gap you have seen in the UK I know when I worked there it was obvious to me that Americans (even low income Americans) had a lot more discretionary income. There are few Americans who do not report being much better off these days then they were 10 years ago. I am very aware much aware of the econmic conditons of the community in which I live, your assertion that those disagree with your point-of-view not withstanding.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:19 PM

Jed:

As I said, I can only comment on the situation in the UK, and my comments related to that only.  I am sure that you are indeed very much aware of the situation in your community, though since you don't say where it is (the USA is quite large, after all) I obviously can't tell how my point of view might agree or disagree with your own experience.  I wasn't, incidentally, talking about discretionary (I assume that by that you mean what we call "disposable") income, but about the gap between rich and poor: not at all the same thing.  I doubt if people living on the street in America feel much better off than do homeless people here.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: BlueJay
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:24 AM

When i play with folks, I really dont give a damn what their political affiliation is. One of my best friends is really conservative, and he knows that I am fairly liberal. IT IS THE MUSIC WHICH IS IMPORTANT. True, it is a specialized relationship, but I really miss him, as he has gone to Catholic Seminary. Also, I'm not Catholic. But on the few occasions we can get together, we have much fun trading on guitar, mandolin and bass. We play all sorts of stuff. Hell, I'd play "Pat Buchanan is the Greatest Man Alive", if it had a catchy tune. And my friend, Don Malin, wouldn't shy away from "Vietnam Potluck Blues", and I know he'd find "Tape From California" musically intriguing. I guess this has as much to do with friendship as anything. But it's mostly making music. We've written some ridiculous songs, totally apolitical. I think that a large percentage of folk music is apolitical, dealing with everything from love to chickens to machinery, (The Gudgeon of Maurice's Car)". Play on, and SMILE!

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Terry K
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:53 AM

Well said BlueJay!!

May the Lord preserve us from the stereotypical, introspective left-wing folkie who spurns good music if it doesn't carry the correct political message.

Let's keep politics out of it.

(In anticipation of a deluge of hate-postings!!!)

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:16 AM

Well Malcom:
How bout a report from the US from another America than Jed lives in... and Jed, there is more to success than the obvious bottom line...
First and formost, the standard of living in the United States exists because we are consuming 70% of the worlds resources here. Not a very good idea for the promotion of world peace and the hope that children in the third world will have a fullfilling life, eh? Secondly, here in New York, not only are we lagging behind the roaring US ecconomy, but in order to keep the impression that things are good, our mayor who gets mad if you call him a facist, has had the police round up homeless people by giving them summons for public drinking or any other small enfraciton caused by their hopeless situation, when they dont show up in court, they get sent to rikers island, where the prisson is growing so fast they are not housing people in inflateable buildings and on decomissioned Staten Island Ferryboats. We now, in the US in general, have more people (proportionally) in jail than any society in the reorded history of humanity. Add to this the mental institutions, and the fastest growing industry in the US, today, is incarceration.
Now, I am reminded of an old movie title from England, Im alright blow you jack. It seems to me this is not a very Christian way to run a nation, especially one where the right wing claim to be the only Christians on the whole planit.
Terry, as for - May the Lord preserve us from the stereotypical, introspective left-wing folkie who spurns good music if it doesn't carry the correct political message. - No one is advocating censoring the right wing, as they sing such as I am a good old reble or other songs which are not poliitical when they advocate buring the Consitution, but we are saying, that folk music, as music of the people, will always be poliitcal, which is why, as the American working class gets more and more brain washed by those who own them, they will sing more songs about fear of minorities, and think of themselves as non-political...

as for Terrys - Let's keep politics out of it. - Again, sing what ever you like, but dont expect us to take the politic out of what has always been a political forum, I for one as an American performer, will not contribute to the dumbing down of the American worker.
And Terry as for your anticipation of a deluge of hate-posting - believe me, disagreement and hate, in most civilized naitons are quiet different, though in a nation which beats gay people to death and hangs them on fence posts, and allows cops to kill minorities with impunity, I dont think the flow of hate comes from the left, those of us who fought unsucessfully for one hundred years to get anti lynching laws, by the way, organizing through the medium of our music.
Keep your hands on the plow and eyes on the prise folks
Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:25 AM

point taken, Malcolm. I live in Dallas, Texas, which may be booming a bit more then other parts of the US, but I travel a bit - and see similar growth throughout the country. And yes I did mean disposable income.

Blue Jay - you are right on! I feel very much like you do, no matter what side of a political arguement I land on.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:32 AM

A lot of my favourite folk songs are political in nature and I markedly use political with a small "P" here. Political needn't necessarily mean leftist in this context (although I would probably be considered somewhat left of centre myself) although it does invariably mean challenging the status quo or "mainstream" or "corporate" thinking in some way.

All the best

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:36 AM

Live and let live, gang. Some of us will sing left-wing political songs, some of us will sing right-wing political songs (if we can find any besides the Ballad of the Green Berets), and some of us will sing songs that don't sound overtly political at all. There's room for all if it. Kind of like talking -- in the world that I prefer to live in, we don't tell people that they're allowed to talk about certain subjects but not others. Music is communication -- the more free and open, the better.

M.Ted, I will have to give Sammy Davis another listen. I was born in the 1950s, and by the time I discovered who Sammy was, he was (a) embarrassing himself with his low-life Rat Pack buddies, (b) guest-starring on forgettable cop shows, situation comedies, and Bob Hope specials, and (c) singing "Candyman" (not the Mississippi John Hurt version, either) on Ed Sullivan, between the Lennon Sisters and the dancing bears. So maybe there was some real artistry beneath the surface there, but it sure wasn't readily apparent.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Anthony
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:24 AM

I love Pete and Lee and Woody. I really do. And I think Tom Paxton is SO cool that I play one of his songs almost every time I pick up a guitar.

But of course I don't respect myself in the morning.

You Mudcatters are great, and I love you all, especially Bert and Larry. Let's find a nice warm tavern one of these days, break out some wonderful old pre-war Martins (paid for with filthy capitalist dollars minted across the broken backs of the oppressed masses) and hash all this out. First round's on me!

TONY

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Ringer
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:58 AM

Here again, Rick, rather than still here. Yes, I know The Cutty Wren and I know it's supposed to be "political" (after all, it's been included on an Ian Campbell Group EP entitled "Songs of Protest", hasn't it? Might have the title slightly wrong there, but not the tone of the title) but I'm folked if I can see anything political in it, even after all these years. So it's not political (imo), but it isfolk.

I have to say that my first posting was, of course, not meant to be taken absolutely literally... I'm sure that, if I gave enough time to it, I could come up with a folk song that was political, but they're few & far between. Maybe Poverty Knock? Not even sure about that.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM

Are not the Robin Hood ballads about a bunch of renegade communists re-distributing wealth from the capitalist of yester-year back to the working class? A lot of songs about poachers have the same sort of message.

Jacobite songs? There are many songs writen with wars or battles as a subject - these aren't political? "Hard Times of Old England?" (I don't know how old that is.) It wasn't always easy to criticize one's own government, and the songs probably had to be disguised so anyone who either didn't understand, or didn't want to understand would miss the political message. So basically, if you don't want to see it, it's not there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GeorgeH
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM

Well some of this is all too familiar . . I think it was McGrath who said almost all there is to say on this subject by observing that Folk song is song that has something to say. Which may give you a love song, but also encompases a lot of political output (and OF COURSE any song about a hungry child is political . . .)

But someone complained "I find it a little disheartening that, in a lot of circles, folkies who refuse to climb on the liberal bandwagon are somehow stigmatized" - utter bullshit, my friend, I stigmatise ALL non-liberals, regardless as whether they are (clearly non-listening) folkies.

This person also said: " . . dozens of old work songs during the 20s and 30s . . . passed on on to me when I was barely big enough to . . " demonstrating his non-listening attachment to Folk, 'cause if work songs of the 20s and 30s aren't political then I'm a Pinochet supporter.

I'm not going to waste time arguing that this individual is an archtype of the upper class exploiter (whatever class he claims to belong to), but I will indicate the way his post - to me at least - illustrates the opposite of what he claims.

For when he says there's an "institutionalized notion in folky circles that all pain and suffering is somehow either 'the guv'ment's fault' or promulgated by evil corporate types . ." he misrepresents "folk circles" to his own ends. Sure, some folk songs - justly - criticise governments, corporations and those who put money before humanity. A few criticise unjustly. But most don't even touch on such matters (I'd guess broken hearts are the most common suffering in Folk songs . . )

And I'll skip his ignorant (in the literal sense) defamation of the Green Party in his rush to defend the "If it moves shoot it (especially if it's black" lobby (OK, I have a jaundiced view of the US right). And while there's a certain irony in his describing the sentiments of "Who's Side are You On" and "Talking Union Blues," as "outdated" in a post which, taken as a whole, illustrates exactly why those songs have such a contemporary resonance, what really sticks in my throat is his lofty suggestion that we should "celebrate instead the virtues of hard work, self-reliance . . ". As I've noted, he can't have been listening to those folk and work songs, if he's not noticed any celebration of those virtues . .

"We lived upon nettles

When nettles were good

And Waterloo porridge was the best of our food . . "

THAT's self-reliance. Not whinging at the prospect of having to pay a little more tax, out of your excessive income, in order to help those less fortunate than yourself.

(As for celebrating "entrepreneurship" - that's rather like celbrating gamblers, which Folk does pretty often!)

He seems to believe one can appreciate folk music in isolation from the folk who created it and the circumstances of their existence; to me that's blatent hypocrasy.

He then says:

" Anyone see the flaw in that logic?

I do, and it is embodied in this cold truth:"

PARDON? You see the flaw in your own logic?

Except, of course, the "cold truth" (or, more accurately, conservative cliche) which followed had absolutely nothing to do with the logic of what had preceded it (or any other discernable logic, except that perversion of logic which passes for right wing self-justification).

And someone then complemented this individual on a well-argued article.

G.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 12:37 PM

In defense of entrepreneurship, I would like to suggest that the true entrepreneur is one who gambles, yes, but on himself. He often places everything he would like to be and have on the table as a stake for what he thinks he can do. When he fails there is no forgiveness, and when he succeeds, he sometimes gets forgotten, or worse, chastised as an evil or greedy opportunist, when he was (from his own lights) just trying to build something that worked in the sometimes crazy marketplace of the world.

The reason so many Americans are currently well fed and housed is in large measure an after-effect of these men and women starting a working group, solving tough problems of design, logistics, production, people, market and finance, and pushing the thing ahead from all sides until it began to roll. That is how Hewlett Packard, Microsoft, Hughes, and Time Warner began. These things were built on sweat. Not just the sweat of line workers, but equally the sweat of entrepreneurs who put themselves at risk to make themhappen.

If I may get a bit abstract I would suggest that anyone who turns out valuable exchange with the world, whether as a mill operator, a middle manager, or a highlevel executive, deserves a welcome and an acknowledgement for doing so. It is clear as well that the opportunities for corruption are more pronounced at higher levels, because of the power that trades in those circles -- even communists have had to wrestle with that.

Individuals do or do not do good work at their various tasks, and the weight of that is what they should be judged on, rather than sweeping categories that repeatedly are used to inaccurately praise or condemn whole classes of people.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:49 PM

Bald Eagle. I looked at the way I phrased the "Cutty Wren" thing, and my tone seemed sarcastic. I apologise. That wasn't my intention. I was just in a hurry.

Of course there are TONS of political meanings in old folk songs. The level of disguise is directly proportionate to the penalty for "dissing" the higher-ups.

One thing will always be fresh in my memory. I've played many times for the "Ladies' Garment Workers Union, and an equal number of times for the Auto Workers Union. The dynamics, attitudes, (and attitude) of the two groups are very different. Perhaps in their infancy they shared many similar goals, but I'd play a thousand times for free for the immigrant women sewing fashions, before I'd play for free to the other group. The songs about "a living wage" really mean something to those women.

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:56 PM

Words of wisdom, Amos. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:13 PM

The origial thought behind this thread was to stimulate some discussion about ' Folk Song Clubs ' especially in England. I started going to folk clubs in the late sixties, they were vibrant and exiting, very heavily comitted to the left of politics. I have seen in them since a gradual but definate decline into little more than ' pop ' music venues, I have even heard Beatle's songs sung in them and even so called ' Guest ' singers singing Buddy Holly and similar songs. Come on all you organiser's and MC's lets have some answers. Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:28 PM

...of course there have ALWAYS been political elements in lots of 'folk' songs!...The difference is in how they are used. Some performers today are very open in their use of music to promote a message..(Terry Leonino & Greg Artzner.."Magpie",Bruce Phillips, even Michael Cooney was pretty heavy at times..[he often preached more than he sang..*grin*])...but others will sing just because it's a good song, just as I know Jewish singers who sing gospel songs because they are taken with the SONGS. As to being left-wing, etc...it is like the discussion of why there are more songs of UN-requited love...those who HAVE all they need are too busy to write songs, and have no need to announce it!

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:29 PM

zander - maybe people's tastes in music vary and mature. I don't think it's appropriate for people's interest in music to stay within the narrow confines a single idiology. Music should not be so parochial an experience. Beatles have plenty of political commentary in their music ... and much personal/human experience. These are all fair game for folk music tunes, as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:34 PM

well put Bill D!

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:52 PM

I can't believe a 60+ post thread on politics and folk music, and I am the first to mention John McCutheon???

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Anthony
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM

Dear GeorgeH,

I realize that participating in a forum of this sort leaves one open to all manner of personal attacks. And that's fine, as far as it goes. My hide is thick enough to absorb a barb or two in the name of free and open discussion.

But even though the brand of malicious sewage you spewed at me is, as a rule, beneath the dignity of reply, you made one comment that I cannot in good conscience leave unanswered.

Yes, George, it is true that I own a firearm -- a rusty old 20-gauge that I bought for $40 one Thanksgiving so I could go quail hunting with my father. I don't even have shells for it anymore, and it hasn't been fired in years. But it's mine, and I treasure it. And I treasure my right to own it and, if necessary, use it in the defense of my home and family as a free citizen living under the U.S. Constitution.

Now then, to slyly hint that this somehow makes me a racist is not just bad manners (being a rude, self-righteous prig, after all, is hardly a criminal offense) but quite beyond the framework of commom decency that generally graces the Mudcat forum.

Free expression is one thing, but this sort of unproven -- and completely false -- accusation is an especially ugly sort of violence and ought not to be posted.

I am sorry and grieved and injured that you feel compelled to give written expression to the same venemous hatred practiced by the bigots you claim to despise. It is obvious to me, and I hope to others, that you are, in fact, cut from the same cloth.

Sincerely, Anthony Brown

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Caitrin
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 04:21 PM

Well...my computer's been in the shop, so I wasn't here for the beginning of this thread. Lots of very interesting and thoughtful posts.
I don't think folk music necessarily has to be political. Certainly, there's lots of great folk music which is. However, it's not necessary that music (of any kind) be political for it to be truly fine music.
As for the whole liberal/conservative issue...
Most of the folkies I know tend to the liberal side. I certainly do. I don't, however, think that being a Republican makes one a gun-toting, child-starving, puppy-kicking Nazi. There are reasonable and intelligent people with whom I don't see eye to eye.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Publius
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 04:46 PM

Ah, but Anthony, that's the trouble with you conservative types- you sure can dish it out, but you just can't take it, can you?

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 05:03 PM

Hey Tony:
Just a small note of support, some of us lefties who spend lots of time with hunter gatherer Natives in Canada, are hunters as well, and I think it is the hieght of ignorant knee jerk reaction thought on the left to be anti hunting. What do the animal rights people suggest we do about deer populations, poison em? Or, how many of them would not talk about thining out the bear population after their kid gets eaten when there are so many hungrey bears that they go from the garbage cans to the nursrey. Hunting is a part of natures plan, and when the lion lies down with the lamb, I will concider melting down the old Moisen Nagat. Not to mention, when the KKK disarms, I will talk about the left feeling warm and fussy about giving up the guns.
See, we do have some common ground, old man!
Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 05:14 PM

interesting series of comments; we're all over the board!

Caitrin - I agree with your points, and would go further to say that being (or voting) Republican need not even define one as conservative!

and OBU, I missed your comments earlier, and can only say that you seem to confirm what I've heard others say many times; New York City is another country!

sorcha - please forgive my ignorance; who is John McCutheon?

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 07:09 PM

Hi Jed:
NYC is indeed several other countries. Genie and I feel no culture shock going to Europe, and live in a small bit of Ireland in New York, as one may live in a small bit of any country in New York, even I suppose the rest of the US, if you are invited to diner at the Mayors house.
On the other hand, Genie and I, who dress as we did when we lived in Ireland - our first home together, just because that is the way we are comfy, drove my brothers car for him from Texas to New York. We could not get over the fact that we were staired at in every restaurant from Texas, Missisippi, Louisanna (except for New Orleans) well through out the deep south. Could it be because we did not weigh 400 pounds? Dunnoh?!
I wasnt even wearing my Breton sabots! Well, I do think this little town of ours is an island of sanity in the shaddow of the megga-consumer, tyranasaurous, Barney, the Purple Dinosaur, who eats children in Asia while danceing with them on TV, and his little mouse, friend, Mickey, who eats up American corporations, eating away the graineries of the American worker, as he sells off the companies assetts, that by the way is part of the old wealth gap in America, the rest of the gap is iether working a McJob at the GAP or in jail.
But, keep picking them banjos, that is our common ground... sort of, we use four strings, you guys even add one more string, conspicuous consumption of banjo strings?!:-)
See the rest of the world, America, and you will see how we look from over there, but dont stay at the hilton.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: High and Lonesome
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 07:25 PM

Jed Marum:

I think Sorcha means John McCutcheon (am I spelling his name correctly), who does, in addition to folk music, a nice job with children's music. If you have a little one, I recommend him (he's got my five year old waltzing around the house singing, "Howdje do de do de doddle do." Anyone who can get the little ones singing Woody Guthrie songs shows that people like me don't need to distinguish betwen folk and children's music. (Though I still do.)

As to his "political" music, I'm not as up on it as I should be. I don't think his song about the Rubber Blubber Whale counts, really.

And as to whether voting Republican makes you a conservative, given that the current batch of Republicans wants to dramatically change how the government is run, if not shut it down entirely, and a conservative wants to preserve the existing order, I think voting Republican means you are NOT a conservative.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:17 PM

It strikes me that the hymns which were often parodied to make labor songs are, in their original form, songs of the conservatives. You don't have to be a bloated capitalist to be right-wing.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:51 PM

"Don't take it so heavy", as Rabbi Lionel Blue likes to say. And I'm thinking of that last response by Anthony Brown. Since he's signed in as a guest, I have to say it in open post, if I'm going to say it at all.

The post by George was critical and cutting, but I don't think it merited that kind of response. There is a fine line in these things. Maybe George stepped over it, Anthony clearly thought he did.

But responding to a hurtful thread by something that is meant to be more hurtful just ends up in flame wars and general unpleasantness. It is perfectly possible to carry on arguments which can be quite heated without going down that road.

"My hide is thick enough to absorb a barb or two in the name of free and open discussion." So it should be. So should all our hides be. And even if the barbs get through and hurt, that's no reason for messing up the Mudhole - "the brand of malicious sewage you spewed at me".

Count to ten - and once again - "Don't take it so heavy!"

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:17 PM

I'm used to George from the folk music newsgroups, and I don't believe that he is ever deliberately hurtful ,though he does sometimes get a bit carried away (don't we all?) - he feels things strongly, as many of us do, but is always ready to apologise if it seems appropriate.  I can't help but feel that Anthony's response was a bit over the top; possibly a raw nerve got touched?

Malcolm

P.S: Sorry for presuming to speak for you, George.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 11:35 PM

Hey there all, and how are all of these opinions stacking up? If we can't hear another's opinions, then we have just taken sides.

If we are busking, what do we feel when we have turned someone off with a torrid opinion, or a point of view? Preaching to the converted sure is fun! Getting a point across to someone who didn't share it is meaningful, but if you are trying to make money, well then dont piss off the rich.

Duncan and Brady didn't go over well with the sherriff and he stormed out of a show I was playing... and yet I still sing the song. Some times when people take offence, they are moved to understanding something they dont want to face... But don't expect them to thank you right then!

Politics and music, are changing the world........ Healing the sad and sick, resisting the plural'd........ Opinions may change, then again maybe not........ Facts have free range, whatever we're taught........ttr

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 12:25 AM

I agree with Larry on NYC-though Rudy Giuliani is starting to take some of the fun out of it--

As to Tony, I have to say that you have my love, respect, everything, for just saying what you think here--I won't name names, but there are more than a few here who only say things that they know people will agree with--and keep the rest quiet for fear of getting trammelled--

Another thought is that what is a folksinger, or a busker, but an entrepeneur?

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:36 PM

Thanx for all the wonderful responses to this thread. I may not agree with all that has been said but I will defend to the death your right to say it. peace and love, Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:39 PM

And Dave:
If the worst does happen, and God willing it will not come to that... my band plays at wakes... your estate can contact us through mudcat.
All the best, (and we do weddings also)
Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:00 PM

Well, no-one's gonna marry him after he's defended to the death your right etc.

From a little more distance the lives of folk music and politics are intermingled but separate sets of things -- they may coincide in one place and not in another.

A

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: High and Lonesome
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:05 PM

Who was it that said, "I believe in free speech, and I'll defend to the death your right to say whatever damn fool, ignorant bit of garbage you come up with. I just don't have to listen."

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:43 PM

Historically, the folk music boom in the late 1950's can be attributed to the political Left. The Right just wasn't interested. The Kingston Trio made a hit out of a well-known left wing song, The MTA written by Bess Hawes, the sister of Alan Lomax. Many folklorists cut their teeth in the Left wing movement such as Archie Green, Kenny Goldstein and others. The work of Pete Seeger paved the way for the acceptance of traditional folk singers such as Bascom Lamar Lunsford (whether he liked it or not), Leadbelly and countless others.

Is folk music inherently political? In my view, all music is political to some extent. It promulgates an idea, a point of view, a way of looking at the world of which one of it's components is political. Whether it's Beethoven's support of a Napoleonic regime or Chopin's Revolutionary Etude or ? it contains some political outlook. Even a so-called non-political stance is a form of political expression if nothing more than a reaction against some fervent position.

Can you appreciate folk music on a political level? Why not? And does it have to be limited to politics? Certainly not.

But the history of the Folk Revival speaks for itself. It was the Left Wing who supported it originally and enabled it's popularity for better or worse.

Frank

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 07:58 PM

Dear High and Lonesome:
The quote you ask after was the motto of the ACLU as opposed to the Lawyers Guild, who bring taste to their choice of whose speach they defend. For any ACLU or NLG members reading this, Sorcha Dorcha also plays at political rallys and law guild gatherings...as well as wakes, and also, High and Lonesome, if you would like to be High and no longer Lonesome, throw a party, and yes, we play parties as well...
Larry

Subject: Lyr Add: THE POOR RICH (Cole Porter)
From: High and Lonesome
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 02:15 AM

Thanks for the advice regarding being high and/or lonesome. But if I'm going to be one, I'll end up being the other, eventually.

A while back, I made an unsuccessful attempt to write a right-wing folks song. Now I've discovered that Cole Porter, of all people, beat me to it, in a song called

"THE POOR RICH"

I receive every morning
A request or a warning
That I help out some fund for the poor.

I admit that big cities
Have to have such committees
And they're all very worthy, I'm sure.
But why don't they start saying prayers
For poor millionaires?

Have you heard that Missus Burr
Has had to fire her pet masseur
And you can believe me, baby, that was some rub.

Have you heard that Missus Pennall
Has auctioned off her kennel
And all that she has left is one bitch?

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: JamesJim
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 02:41 AM

I can't pass this without commenting. We live in a new age where everything is being re-defined. Web access is driving that new age and politics has very little to do with it. We are becoming more aware of our brothers and sisters from all over the world through the internet. It is not a "personal" type of relationship, where we can look each other in the eye, but then, it's more than we've ever had before. It has created and will continue to create an opportunity for all to share in the wealth of the world. If there is a political element to it (and I'm sure there is), perhaps it is the challenge of leaving no one behind.

We will all continue to deal with issues at our local level. That is where the music has always come from - those things that effect people in every day life. Much of the music will continue (just like now) to appeal to folks all over the world, because we all deal with similar issues and problems. I've never been to Ireland (sure hope to change that some day) but I can identify with the problems those who live there face. Sure there are stupid agendas of both political elements - Liberals and Conservatives - no matter the country. We have to expose both in our music. There's lot's to write about for those who are talented enough to do so. What a great opportunity! Jim

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 03:15 AM

Someone once said, ' why does the devil have all the best tunes ' Enough said. Peace and love, Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 08:00 AM

The of course there is the Tom Leher song about Folk music, the verce about the Spanish civil war... they may have won all the battles, but we had all the good songs.
No pasaran: SALUD
Larry