BS: I'm scared of Americans and Guns

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: harpgirl
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:03 PM

The last time I looked, democracy required dissent. Maybe we could just give everyone who wanted to own a firearm a means test. Every month they would have to prove their need to have a firearm by proving that they needed to own a firearm to eat, to protect themselves from the really dangerous people in the United States, to maintain their valuable collections, or whatever other reasons they had. Then if the proof wasn't good enough we could take their firearms away and make them begin the means test all over again the next month.
Oh wait, we do that for women with children trying to survive on welfare. Oh well, if it's good enough for them it's certainly good enough for the firearms enthusiasts!
And while I am saying what I really think I believe we should add an amendment called the "ERA". It's my right to believe what I want to. This is America.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:59 PM

We are back at the bad history again. This struggle to justify the gun society is as frightening as the guns themselves. If you wish to use statistics , use this one...America has the highest murder rate in the western world...it has the highest level of gun ownership..is there a realionship between these things ? There are many countries where law abiding citizens don't feel the need to be armed..in fact, In Britian and in parts of Canada, the police are not armed....yet they have FAR lower murder rates. Why ?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:45 PM

Spaw - I live in Ft Worth just a few miles west of Dallas { it's too hot there } . I can assure you that even though Oliver Stone exposes the Grassy Knoll Tiplers he was only allowed to film those things that the GKT's allowed him to see. Remember -"The partial truth is no truth at all. "

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:42 PM

Why, yes, I too am afraid of Americans with guns. That is precisely why there is a loaded pistol under the sofa, in case some idiot decides to come into my house without permission with the express intent of doing me harm.

What the media doesn't tell you is that thousands of crimes are prevented by honest citizens with guns, or other weapons, or household items they used as weapons. Criminals don't really want to get hurt either. What they also don't tell you is that crime is up in Australia since people turned in their guns, because now the criminals (who still have guns) know that people have little way of defending themselves.

I listen to international stations over the Net and even in countries where guns are banned, they still have murders and suicides and all manner of terrible things, including gun violence. Too many people have the mistaken idea that if guns went away, all crimes would go away too. WRONG! If I remember right, Cain didn't slew Abel with a firearm.

Remember what happened to Germany in WWII? Hitler took away everyone's guns. You all know what happened after that. Beware a government that doesn't want you to defend yourself. Beware, beware, beware... I can't say it enough. History has shown that whenever a government wants to subjugate people, they take away their defense.

I have a right to defend myself against thugs. That's why I have a gun.

If you don't want to have one, that is your choice. But don't try to take away my choice.

Regards ------------------ Kim

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:36 PM

Dear Guest ayank; your knowledge of history is rudimentary at best and should not be used in a debate where facts are respected. Canada also was a frontier country..much more recently I might add, than America...they do not share this gun toting philosophy. Bad history cannot justify blind stupidity.......guns are designed to kill things and they do........in large numbers. It is evident that the country with the highest murder rate also has the highest number of Guns...that is not an accident. As for the curtailment of personal freedom...it happens all the time in democratic countries..it is called the rule of law.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:34 PM

I'm glad you have seen fit to do the right thing Wesley!

The Grassy Knoll Tiplers........As time passes we are confronted with more and more stories such as yours and the light they shed on that day in Dallas can no longer be swept aside. Oliver Stone has a "Director's Cut" of "JFK" due to be released in July which includes the previously unseen portions of his film which includes the GNT group and their actions before and after that tragic day.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:26 PM

It's very true that I sold a gun to get a mandolin { often junkies will sell possesions to fuel their habits } but I neglected to get the proper permits. If you make mandolins illegal only outlaws will have mandolins. Because of your advice I will now endevor to obtain a "right to carry a concealed mandolin".

To prove to you that I'm not a radical let me assure you that I consider a tiple to be overkill. No law abiding musician needs any more than 8 strings on an instrument. Twelve string guitar season excluded of course. And I do support a 5 day waiting period and stringent background checks for anyone who wants to purchase a tiple. Of course the desire to obtain one means that you will flunk the background check. Lets round up all the tiple players before it's too late.

I should probablly contact you off line to tell you about the rumors concerning the grassy knoll tiplers. I wouldn't want the truth to get around. The truth is out there.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:23 PM

Hi,

Had to sort out some "work permit" details and had to FAX the Canadian "Application for an Employment Authorisation" form to a US agency for a British artist. They were somewhat irate by the bureaucracy (which I've experienced the other way round - so no side should complain). The artist was somewhat amused by question 19f:-

In periods of either peace or war, have you ever been involved in the commision of a war crime or crime against humanity, such as: willful killing, torture, attacks upon, enslavement, starvation or other inhumane acts commited against civilians or prisoners of war; or deportation of civilians?

He wasn't sure whether they were talking about his guitar playing!

Wasn't sure whether to post it here or the US/Canadian thread, but here it is.

Cheers Rana

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Hollowfox
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:17 PM

Lizzie, gun debates aside, I think the important part of your posting is the fear. It's a brave thing to admit a fear in public, especially in such an open forum as this. Please don't fall prey to stereotypes. The gun-toting American is no more typical of this country than the tweed-wearing man with the monocle who says, "Pip, pip." all the time is typical of yours. Any country can be typified by a wide spectrum of "typical" stereotypes, from the best to the worst. Come back and visit soon. You'll find that this fringe element (folk) will show, IMHO, a truer picture of the USA than television. Love, Mary.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:01 PM

I'm sorry Wes, but I have turned you in to Bureau of Funshit Foolery (BOFF) for posession of a lethal instrument without permit. As I'm sure you are aware, although the Bill of Rights grants each citizen to the inalienable right to own a howitzer, mandolins and their ilk are strictly regulated and our founding fathers were wise not to include them in the constitution.

Each year, thousands of US citizens are attacked by mando playing fools and the assault on their sensibilities has taken a toll and forced many to purchase a Glock. Their cousin, the tiple, a bastard offspring of the guitar and mandolin has already been used by the CIA for the overthrow of several third world regimes and indeed speculation runs high that CIA/Mafia Tiplers were in Dallas in 1963, although the Warren Commission dismissed the notion in favor of the "Single String Theory."

Best advice I can give you is to give yourself up now before BOFF agents establish a perimeter around your domicile, shoot your dog, kid, and wife, with legal firearms and confiscate your mandolin.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:00 PM

I know I shouldn't do this. I know I'm just going to make things worse. But the temptation is just too much.

Peter. (Who owns several handguns, loves to shoot them, and has never in his life knowingly fired a gun at a living thing.)

Something to Shoot
Christopher David Wall
Rhythm Wrangler Music, BMI
From his recording, Honky Tonk Heart:

I was born and raised 'way out west
And the thing that I like about living here best
Ain't the mountains, the praries, the hats or the boots;
It's having plenty of guns, and something to shoot

We got shotguns and six-guns, we got a shitload of guns,
And shooting varmints and critters is a shitload of fun.
I don't care 'bout the money, don't care 'bout the loot.
Give me Jack Daniels whiskey, and something to shoot.

There's a whole herd of elk, right there in a line,
And it's a pain in the ass to shoot 'em one at a time.
I'm 'way below quota, I've had a bad day;
Boy, what I wouldn't give for just one hand grenade!

I don't care about the future, don't care 'bout the past;
As long as I've got me some creatures to blast.
We got deer, we got elk, we got old owls that hoot;
And when I've killed 'em all, there'll be yankees to shoot.

Now don't you tailgate me son, get off my back
I got a thirty-ought-six right here in the rack.
And this ain't New Jersey, we don't honk, we don't yell
But you just touch that bumper, and I'll blow you to Hell.

(Repeat first verse)

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,ayank
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:54 AM

There is also this thing called the Royal Ulster Consta-someting or other, not exactly against the right to their guns, or rubber bullets, or tear gas, or any number of lethal weopons. I think the IRA should give up their guns when the RUC gives up theirs. As for America, we were a frontier society not to long ago, we industrialized relatively over night, and the amount and number of guns as well as the attitude towards guns is simply a hold over from that period. Until recently, most americans were farmers and guns were a logical tool on a farm. We also like our drugs, and guns are a logical tool for drug running as well. Thirdly, blacks who have been totally denied access to the mainstream society have found gang membership a logical alternative, and I can't say as I blame them. What you Brits did to Catholics, we do to blacks and other minoritys, and I don't blame them for not waiting for the elite to become enlightned and take matters into their own hands. The word is a very dangerous place, and their was this thing called the British Empire that is most culpable for it, so if you don't like the way things our, you have your nation/state to blame.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:26 AM

I owned a .357 magnum but I sold it in order to buy my mandolin. And I will defend to the death my God given right to own and use my mandolin.

{ Does anyone know where I can get a good mandolin rack for my pickup ? }

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Caitrin
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:02 AM

Aldus, you make a serious error in referring to guns as toys. They are not. To consider them anything other than potentially deadly weaponry is to invite injury or death. Guns have always been treated seriously in my house, and I never got the impression that guns were toys, even when I was twelve.
Another point...no one here has suggested that "bullies at school" should be handled by shooting. If you think that's what people are saying, you're right, that is insane.
To be perfectly honest, Americans in general simply don't like the idea of having personal freedom curtailed. We don't tend to see why the rights of people who obey the rules should be abridged because of people who do not obey.
Personally, if there were a way to legislate handguns away, I think it's a great idea. There is a place where I believe personal freedom takes a back seat. Unfortunately, it's not possible. You can take guns away from law-abiding people, but not from criminals. Violent crime will continue, regardless of gun control laws.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Simon in Hampshire, England
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:56 AM

Amazing how this topic can rouse such ire. Over on the Fairport Convention list recently this also came up. The main lesson from that is that there is a huge gulf between the US and the UK on the okay-ness of owning guns.

Now, being English, perhaps I underestimate just how handy a gun is. There must be no end to the uses other than shooting people, eh? As Little Bill Daggett says in 'Unforgiven', they're for "snakes an' such". But I'm not exactly convinced by the 'hunting helps preserve the countryside' argument – if a nation is serious about preserving the countryside, it leaves it bloody well alone, not just bloody.

Speaking personally, I'm afraid of ANYONE with a gun, be they American, Iraqi or Martian, and I doubt that owning one myself would make me feel a whole lot better. There is a proportion of nutters in any population. If guns are available, that means ARMED nutters.

If I may paraphrase from memory the late great Bill Hicks (stats are for demonstration purposes only – proportions, not actual figures): "Here in the United States – and I think you know how we feel about guns – whoo, I'm getting a stiffy just thinking about it – we had ten thousand deaths by firearms last year. In Britain, where not even the policemen carry guns – twenty. Ten thousand… twenty. Now I don't want you to get the wrong idea. There is no connection – none – and you'd be a fool and a communist to think otherwise – between having a gun, and shooting someone with it, and NOT having a gun, and NOT shooting someone."

Oh and by the way Bud: "If you think that outlawing guns will solve the problem, then all Britain has to do is outlaw them in Northern Ireland and voila! everything is peaceful and problem solved", eh? Kindly refrain from talking of a subject about which you evidently know nothing. The only people who have guns in Northern Ireland are the paramilitaries and the police/army. Guns ARE outlawed, and, oddly enough, who does the shooting? People WITH guns, or those without? Surprise surprise, people with guns shoot people! And there are (were?) active efforts to get rid of the guns, not just let everyone keep them in case they come in handy, "oh well, we've got 'em now, may as well join the Americans".

Yes, if people want to hurt others, they'll do it anyway. Bridget says: "it doesn't mean that no one should have guns because a few people abuse the privelege." Yes it does, because nothing else (except maybe swords) is specifically designed to harm other people as easily, efficiently, and as many at a time, as possible. What you do is very carefully CONTROL those that are allowed for wildfowl, targets etc. Mistakes will be made, but rather fewer than in the present US free-for-all. But it's this simple – if you're not into targets or hunting, if you don't want to / think you might 'need' to / intend to shoot someone, ordinary folk don't need a gun.

And if anyone disagrees I'll shoot 'em.

Simon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:31 AM

Too right, folk1234. And it's that bond of singing and just being with those special people that eases our pains, lets us momentarily forget our differences, opinions, and arguments about such topics as gun control--we enter a world where none of those seem of great importance to us at that moment. I love all you folks, and would gladly be a human shield for any one of you.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: folk1234
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:10 AM

Ya' know, I'm truly quite proud of my Mudcat friends. Despite the very controversial topic, and some horrible personal accounts, this has been a very civil discussion.
It proves a point I have often made - Once you sing with a person, you have a very special life-long bond. We have not yet all sung together physically, but we certainly have done so vicariously and virtually.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:38 AM

Wasn't it a David Bowie song that says "I'm afraid of Americans, I'm afraid of Americans, I'm afraid I can't help it..."

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:33 AM

I never cease to be amazed at the ability of Americans to justify what in most other Western countries would be considered insanity. Just look at some of the inane excuses...we need to hunt....supermarkets sell meat... we need to conserve nature....by shooting at it...we need to control bullies in schools...by shooting them....we need to defend our property...by shooting people...we need to defend ourselves against the government.....by shooting officers of the law.....we need to teach kids to be responsible about guns...by teaching them to use lethal weapons thereby showing them that this is a toy...fun at the practising range.... Oh, give us a break and grow up,,,,This is not 1776 or 1850 or 1920...this is the 21st century, the age of the cowboy is over. There are few things about which I have such strong feeling but I have good reason to see this gun arguement as just pkain stupid. The only thing that is right about these arguements is when people say, Guns are ok in America because America is different...sadly, this is all too true. I think America is a great place..but this annal fascination with deadly toys is absurd.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Simon in Hampshire, England
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:17 AM

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 04:14 AM

Whoa!

Tony Martin used a gun to defend himself (I believe) and has now been convicted of murder.

The problem is one of the perceived freedom to coerce. It starts with the ability ot coerce through words and social pressure. THat creates the need to "coerce" right back. THen it moves on to economic pressure. You'll never work in this town again buddy. THen it moves on to physical violence - touch my wife and I'll kick you to pieces - stop telling me what to do or my frineds and I will kick you to pieces. THen it moves on to weapons.

If you are not right in what you are doing then it should not be acceptable to coerce. But our whole society is built on the opposite premise and justifies resonable force in self defence.

Like at Columbine High, the greater (yes I mean it - ask enyone who has been systematically bullied) crime - of destroying a person's self respect because they are not in the group with power - is so often one step back.

Power destroys - and creates the need for a countervailing power.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:05 AM

Oh dear, a lot has happened here since my last visit. Woody and kat, I am crying for both of you and for all the people (female or not) in your position. Oh, this is going to be tough.
I would not hesitate to kill any scumbag who tried to rape me, IF I COULD. The qualifier is If I could.......he could take the gun away from me and use it on me, he could use a broken bottle, etc. But it wouldn't make me hate him any more/less........(crying here) Our daugher was digitally molested 6 yrs ago, and none of us have ever gotten over it, really, let alone her. But we HAVE to be civil to the bastard because he was never charged, let alone convicted, and Hubby is a cop........innocent until PROVEN guilty......
Oh crap, I don't know if I can do this or not. So many thoughts, so little brain cells.
In Iran now, it is legal for ANY man to kill ANY woman violating the Islamic law, and they don't have to use guns, they can use the swimming pools in the backyard. Just for not wearing a chador/veil.....
I guess it is time to come clean, We have 4 handguns in the house, and 5 hunting rifles, and 4 antique rifles. Hubby is a cop and carries one all day every day. Do I feel safe? NO, I do not.And all the guns are unloaded, and I do Not keep one by the bed.
Last year, only 2 mos after my mother died, our son was arrested for Aggravated Assault; he shot his own car while trying to defend himself from an assault by 5 other (ethinic) people. He is now a felon, they are not even minor offenders.
Oh golly I can't do this now, this is my next thing to work through. But I guess the bottom line is, that Americans are so BLOODY minded, that they won't let ANYONE tell them what to do, whether it is right or wrong....will try to make sense of this tomorrow. Sorry my friends, just too difficult right now.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:26 AM

yeah kat this is an easy one to get sucked into emotions run high on both sides of the coin and there is no correct and right all arond answer. to many variables... Peace, Love an' Joan Baez- Biskit-

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:16 AM

I had several guns in my house when an ex-boyfriend came by and raped and beat me. They didn't do me any good. In all the years I was raised owning guns and target practising, I never used one in self-defense. I feel no need to own a gun anymore, haven't in a long time and my kids have only very vague memories of targetshooting.

I am one of "these" people who are hollering for not just laws, but also for parents to be more responsible for their children in what they let them be exposed to through medial, and for keeping violent criminals in jail for at lest a good portion of their term. Read a facsinating book on the travesty of the drug war by a guy who was undercover and a high mucky-muck. It is a sham and has filled our prisons in a PR move to convince everyone it is working.

There...I got sucked in, too.

kat

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:14 AM

Personally I'm in favor of public flogging for the more minor crimes, and quick execution, for the violent offenders. You know in the middle eastern countries if a thief is caught they'll cut off a finger on his right hand ,if he's caught a second time, they cut off his right hand, this is significant because they have community food bowls, lotsa people eat out of the same bowl they eat with there right hand, they wipe there hineys with there left hand, and no-one will let you eat out bof the bowl they are eating out of with the hand you wipe your hiney with, erego the thief,..if he was stupid enough to be a repeat offender starves to death. VIOLA'! there are very few thiefs, and even fewer repeat offenders. Now I know that someone is gonna disagree with this, but chances are the person doing the disagreeing hasn't ever came home from vacation and all there possesions, have been turned upside down and what they couldn't sell or trade for what ever their drug of choice was, they broke.Oh GAWD! I'm off on a tangent again are'nt I -Biskit-

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: SeanM
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:06 AM

(rant)

For the most current example of what Prohibition does, look at the effects of the "Drug War" on the USA and the world. As a result of this travesty, we have one of the largest (if not THE largest) prison populations as a percentage of population, entire city areas devastated by drug money fueled gang warfare, corruption up to the highest levels of government (Iran/Contra, anyone?), a Congress that has enacted several severely un-Constitutional laws (which are finally being repealed by the Supreme Court), and a mindset that values punishment at all costs over rehabilitation.

And that's just in this country.

The US has exerted pressure several times to create "Drug War" machinery in other countries, and has strongarmed other governments into shutting down treatment programs (Britain's heroin maintenance program being a prime example).

Where does this tie in to the subject of guns and Americans in general? I think that the duality of a government yelling "Drugs are illegal" combined with a vast majority of said government's citizens blatantly ignoring said law creates the same sort of lawless atmosphere that bred the organized crime of the '30s. With that comes the lessening of the value of human life, and the attendant social problems. You see the results amongst a small but increasingly frightening minority - - kids with guns, bloody shootouts, drive bys, etc. Thankfully, they are exactly that - a small minority of the population.

The Drug War isn't the entire problem. But god knows that it's a big part of it (IMHO).

(/rant)

M

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:54 AM

Why can't everyone just get along? Seriously.

Peace--Bridget

P.S. My parents made me quit my last job before I got the one I have now. Guess why. I got robbed at gunpoint. They never found the guys. So what, though? The thing is, scary stuff happens sometimes, but it doesn't mean that no one should have guns because a few people abuse the privelege. If the government put half as much effort into finding, prosecuting, and incarcerating these people (and sticking to the original sentencing), a lot of crimes wouldn't happen. Look at the statistics sometime on how many criminals are repeat offenders. Lock 'em up and throw away the key.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:52 AM

Bridget, your thinking wasn't confused, your thoughts came through loud and clear. I myself am a confirmed pacifist!!! I don't believe that there is a need for assault rifles or other stratiegic weaponry to kill deer or ducks, or anything else you intend to feed your family, however these people that are always screaming for gun control have lost sight of the fact that most violent crimes are not commited by folks who procured their guns by legal means. If you take the guns away from law abiding citizens then only the criminal element will have guns, and the police are limited in what they can do by law.....it just would not work.-Biskit-

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:48 AM

Thanks for the act of courage, woodward, in writing the short but powerful post above. I know two other decent, honest, intelligent women who had similar experiences.

If things in my town ever got so bad that I honestly believed I needed a gun to protect my family, I would be more than happy to register it, to wait five days for a background check, or any other reasonable control. I would hate to think my choice had been written away from me back when I didn't need it.

This assumes there are times when you need one, at least in some places. Current history seems to bear this assumption out; it is very clear to me that psychosis in the individual reaches a point where words no longer penetrate. Your Mister Sterling obviously was not available for discussion.

Maybe you could argue that without their guns, such men would not commit their crimes. Maybe this is so. Any criminal who is already involved in law breaking could get one even in a highly regulated environment, though. So perhaps the nominal banishment of them would be something like Prohibition -- a well-intended act which then made hordes of people act like criminals.

A

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:41 AM

Dearest Woodward, I'm sorry, truly sorry that that worst of all offences happened to you BUT THAT ANIMAL you called a law abiding citizen is anything but! as I'm sure you well know. Please don't twist my words into something less than a lie. Truely, -Biskit

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:37 AM

Honestly, I find it lamentable that scientists throughout all the ages of have found it necessary to invest so much time and money in two fields of research that completely contradict each other. One is the design, manufacture, distribution, and perfection of killing machines of all kinds, and if not machines, than chemicals, diseases, or something else designed to kill. The other field of research that is very popular is medicine, intended to help people survive their run-ins with killing machines. Killing anyone for any reason is wrong, except in the case of murderers and rapists who commit the worst two crimes of all--they should rot in hell as soon as possible. In any case, there is no reason why anyone should ever need to kill anyone in the first place.

On the other hand, America's Constitution guarantees at least some reasonably regulated right to bear arms. So to all those people who want unlimited right to arms, what exactly would a person use a cannon to hunt? Ducks? There are some weapons that normal people just don't need, although in this day and age people should have access to some protection.

Geez, I'm confusing myself. This topic kind of goes in circles with me because even though I am an ardent pacifist, I still believe in pretty much complete personal freedom, but also in the laws and restrictions that have created America. . . I think that may have just made it worse.

If anyone can decipher what exactly I meant by all that, feel free to tell me. . . I'm sure I had something worthwhile to say. . .

Peace--Bridget

"We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane." /br/--Kurt Vonnegut in Breakfast of Champions

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:34 AM

it's time to chnage the constitution? because you don;t agree with it? well, have at it.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:18 AM

Just a bit of history, canoer...no suggestions on my part.

--Mbo (who read "The Jungle")

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JamesJim
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:17 AM

Does a water gun count? I have two of em'.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:17 AM

Lizzie, I understand your fear,I don't partake in it but I understand. What I fear are people like yourself screaming to take the guns away from honest lawabiding citizens. Are we to let only the criminals have guns? how would I protect my beloved wife and children from these same said criminals? I cannot even hope to convince you that there are BAD PEOPLE in this world, people that could do harm to you and the people you love if you had no-way to protect yourself.But the criminal element is the minority not the majority in this country, most of us are everyday hard workin' god fearin' types that would, only when the lives of our loved ones or our selves are threatend with violence respond in kind. I know of NO-ONE that would look forward to such a thing, except the ones that we protect our selves against.Stand up for what you believe in Lizzie, but don't try to force your beliefs on other people that's facism and that won't fly in this country.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: DougR
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:13 AM

Let's ban sledgehammers!

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:11 AM

If you want to see how long responsible and rational people stay responsible and rational, put them through a divorce.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: canoer
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:02 AM

Give it up, Mbo, how much profit can there be in supplying sledgehammers to people who want weapons?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:51 PM

now they use an explosive bolt, Mbo, split the difference.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:46 PM

Y'know, back in the 20's, animals in stockyards that ended up on our dinnerplates weren't killed with guns, but with sledgehammers.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:45 PM

canoer, I too grew up in a household full of guns, with bullet holes in the venetian blinds to prove it. As a child was I scared? Yer damned right I was! And this was a household with a responsible "hunter" who taught his children to "respect" his weapons.

Did my brother and I bring our children up in a "household of guns" and in the same manner? No bloody way!

I too find the "culture of the gun" frightening Lizzie, despite the fact that some of its aspects are not foreign to me.

"I've seen the bullet and the damage done" with apologies to Neil Young.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: canoer
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:06 PM

Dear Lizzie,

I've got all the guns & rural hunting upbringing etc. abovementioned. And I still think you are perfectly right to be scared. We who are in this country, with its unique history, looking from the inside outward, think it's quite normal. But I have no doubt that the rest of the world, from outside looking in, has more than sufficient grounds for pause.

Quite a situation, ain't it?

--Larry C.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: thosp
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:02 PM

Lizzie ---- in that order?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 10:24 PM

Calm down Moonchild, I only see one post that maybe anti-American and if it is that rather than niaevity, it is surely a troll.

Jon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,moonchild
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 10:12 PM

I JUST LOVE IT WHEN I SEE THREADS ... ASKING IF WE AMERICANS KNOW THAT WE ARE HATED; KNOW THAT WE ARE DISLIKED; KNOW THAT WE ARE THOUGHT OF AS FOOLS BY OTHER COUNTRIES ... THAT ALL AMERICANS ARE MURDERERS BECAUSE WE DON'T BAN FIREARMS ... THAT ALL AMERICANS ARE WARMONGERS BECAUSE WE HAVE AIDED OTHER COUNTRIES.

It is a privilege to post your thoughts on this website, which, in case you haven't figured it out is the "child" of an American, with it's homebase in an American City, in an American State, and funded by many American Dollars, as well as "dollars" from overseas.

So ... if you don't like Americans ... find a website that is maintained by Cuba or Russia or Iran or Iraq and see how far you get when you voice your opinions about them.

For those of you who wonder what it's like to be the Ugly American, let me tell you ...

I "lost" a fiance to the Vietnam conflict and have regretted not standing tall to be counted during that time, with the knowledge that it would have been my right as an American to do so.

I marched and demonstrated for the right of all women to make their own choices regarding their bodies, with the knowledge that it was my right as an American to do so.

I have "fought" everyday in my career for other women and men to be treated fairly and equally in whatever careers they choose ... and I continue to do so because it has made a difference.

I was "raised" with my parents telling me everyday that I could be whatever I wanted because of those basic rights outlined in the Constitution of the United States.

None of us live in Utopia, g-d forbid ... and human nature and genetics and environment will always be in evidence.

And ... before any of you tell me to calm down, I've been reading this dreck for several days and I am calm.

So, before you slam Americans, please clean up your own backyard ... moonchild

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 10:11 PM

agreed kat and bud, hence my first comment; "this is a joke, right?"

...course I still got sucked in!

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 09:45 PM

And, there are ALREADY SEVERAL GUN DEBATE THREADS! This one smells like a rat!

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 09:38 PM

On another thread, a UK woman appeared from time to time in various incarnations with various aliases, bemoaning American patriotism, capitalism, lack of gun control, and what not. Now Lizzie, if you're the same gal, please don't open one of your endless cans of worms (that's American for Pandora's box). The two cities in the USA with the strongest anti-gun laws are Washington DC and New York; they also have the highest rate of violent crime. If you think that outlawing guns will solve the problem, then all Britain has to do is outlaw them in Northern Ireland and voila! everything is peaceful and problem solved.

If you are another alias of Red Barbie or Plane Jane, please cut out the anti-American stuff on this site; it doesn't belong here. If you are someone else, well, God help us! Two of you over there?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Twitchy
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:26 PM

What you should really be more scared of are:

Iranians, Islamic Fundamentalist countries or North Koreans with nukes...

...or the U.S. become militarily involved in the Taiwan dispute with China.


There. Now you have something to be genuinely concerned about. Sleep well tonight.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:19 PM

Lizzie: Obviously, you've stepped in a wee bit of a pile here. I don't hunt because I don't need the meat. But In this country much as people don't like it, our constitution does specify the right(Not Privilige) to keep and bear arms and maintain a well regulated militia. (People tend to forget the well regulated part of that statement) Trying to ban anything in this country tends to become a sticky situation. I am not a real big fan of hand guns and I am no fan of assault weapons.(Those are not sport weapons and no-one I know who hunts would consider using an AK-47 to hunt deer). Our government need to strt tacking on some serious jail time and punitive fines when guns are used in a crime or are provided to minors. Again, welcome to our country and to Mudcat Cafe. I believe, in time, you will find both to be a positive experience. Best of luck, Neil