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SeriousBS: Elian2
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Gary T Date: 25 Apr 00 - 10:27 AM I don't see it the way you do, Dan. Allow me to discuss another point of view on some items:
1. The family did request that nothing happen during Holy Week. Yes it may have been a delaying tactic, But after all it was Holy Week.
2. Being a Great Grandfather, I still feel that Janet Reno DID NOT walk far enough. Yes the negotiations did drag on, but so do Union contract negotiations. Reno had to act to prove that her word was law. So did all the other dicatators in this world. It just proved that she is lacking in sufficient negotiation skills and brains.
3. You don't do this type of thing while negotiating on the telephone to Highly Respected Business men and important individuals in the Cuban American community.
4. Then of course we have Bubba Clinton. Well enough said about him.
5. The Media, whom I dislike intensely for the deliberate coloring of the facts for sensationalism are in my opinion the next to the biggest lying SOB's around. They stand an extremely close second to the Politicians. These two groups have done more harm to the American Image then all the Cubans rioters who just happen to be an extremely small part of the Cuban American community. That bearded idiot 90 miles of the coast will be the big winner when all is said and done. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: katlaughing Date: 25 Apr 00 - 11:13 AM The Media cater to the public, not particularly noblely, but it does no good to try to blame everything on the Media and Politicians exclusively. They give the people what they want, or at least what the most vocal of people want. If the majority of people quit tuning in, buying the trash mags and papers, there would be a change in the Media. As for changing the politicians: I hope you all exercise your right to vote. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 25 Apr 00 - 12:13 PM Aine, I beg to differ with you--I have seen the politicians and the media jump on all of that stuff that you mentioned--the problem is that they do it with the same sincerity that is involved they are, this morning, holding hearings on the Elian rescue. It looks like it will go over with the folks back in Peoria, so they make a fuss until there is something else to make a fuss about--and then leave things as they found them-- I lived in Philly for many years, and I swear, they had a regular "dead baby in a trashcan" beat--everytime it happened all four TV newsteams had somebody out at the scene, shaking their head sanctimoniously-- Sometimes the baby would still be alive, in which case viewers sent thousands of stuffed animals to the hospital. and we got to know all the NICU nurses (as a aside, these kids always ended up in NICU--Neonatal Intensive Care Units, where the medical costs typically would exceed the amount it would cost to raise them to adulthood) The amazing thing is that, after watching the trashcan baby thing for month after month, year after year, most people thought that it was ludicrous that Germany implemented a "baby drop Off" facility at an urban hospital-- And as it stands, they have not attributed the zoo shootings to "gangs", there was a sizeable, ongoing brawl among a large group of teenagers, and, from what the witnesses say, one kid, who was getting beat up, pulled out a gun and fired off a few shots, leading several others to join in-- Since the shooters where still at large, and my wife's train stops at the zoo, I thought it best to drive in and get her-- Actually, that is not the only horrible thing that happened here lately--last thursday an eight year old was stabbed to death in Alexandria--a complete stranger just walked up (he was in is grandparents yard) and started slashing away--the grandmother and a passerby tried to intervene, and got cut up pretty badly, as well--and the man just walked off--they haven't a clue who or why-- Sorry--I don't even have a point here--
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Apr 00 - 12:49 PM I think you do have a point M.Ted, even if it's not the one you arer making.
These were things that happened in America? Just another day in the USA? Are you really surprised that a father sooner get well away from that with his son, even if it means living under a government that is a lot less than perfect, and in a country with a different set of problems, and which is his own country? |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Whistle Stop Date: 25 Apr 00 - 01:14 PM The question here isn't which one is better, Cuba (because there's less random violence) or the USA (because it's a capitalist democracy). The question is who gets to decide. If in wrestling with this question we in the US are forced to look at our own homeland with a little more humility than we had before, that's a silver lining to this big grey cloud that's been hanging over our heads for the past several months. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: annamill Date: 25 Apr 00 - 01:30 PM Just another American hardship story. There's millions of 'em. I don't know how I feel about this poor boy. I don't have enough facts. I don't know how life is in Cuba. I don't know if the father is abusive. I don't know the letter of the law that gave Reno her power. All the discussions I've heard have been without the facts that would help me decide how I feel about all this. I just don't know and all I can do is hope that this boy, along with millions of other small ones, has a good life. Now, lets go help another child. Love, annap |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Scotsbard Date: 25 Apr 00 - 01:34 PM Usually I refrain from commenting on these threads, but the salient points of discussion need clarification: a) Elian belongs with his father, Juan Gonzales. There is no credible evidence or objective reasoning for any other person to have custody if both Elian and his father agree with that arrangement. b) Juan Gonzales is a Cuban national, and may choose to live there with his family. No other person or group has the legal right to obstruct such a decision, and further argument from moral or philosophical bases is irrelevant. c) The US government has successfully returned Elian to Juan despite the maneuverings of various political fanatics and information profiteers. Whether the government's methodology was appropriate does seem open to minor debate. Actions taken by INS beaurocrats in Miami when Elain first arrived deserve far more scrutiny than the prolonged negotiation and media frenzy. As Aine pointed out above, there are far more important issue that need discussion and effective action. The time has long past for the media to leave Elian and Juan alone, and hopefully to find something a little more productive to boost their ratings. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Jim Dixon Date: 25 Apr 00 - 01:43 PM The question has been asked, has anyone in this situation acted honorably? I, for one, believe Janet Reno has acted honorably. I agree with everything I have heard her say on this subject, plus I believe she has said it more articulately and more compassionately than I, or anyone I know of, could have done. We would all do well to pay close attention to her and imitate her style. As Teddy Roosevelt said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." That is exactly what she has done. If there is anything to criticize, it is that she didn't act earlier, when so much force might not have been necessary. But I can only say that with 20-20 hindsight. Who knows, if I had been in her position, I might have made the same mistakes. But I can't think of anyone else that I would trust more to make the right decision at the right time. I would trust her with my own son. If anyone ever kidnapped him and held him hostage, she is the first person I would want to have on my side. Some people have alleged that Janet Reno's actions are subservient to Bill Clinton's political goals. Anyone who believes this, please explain this to me: Why didn't Janet Reno fire Kenneth Starr? She had the power to do so. I speak as someone who has often wished she HAD fired him. Why did she repeatedly approve Starr's requests to expand the scope of his investigation, when she didn't have to, and these expansions were obviously not in Clinton's best interest? If she had refused, we might never have heard of Monica Lewinsky. I have contemplated this problem, and the only explanation I can think of is that she is a woman of high integrity and does what she believes is right. By taking the stand she has taken, she has probably given up her hope of retiring peacefully and securely to the little house in the woods in Florida that she lived in since she was 8 years old. If she returns to Florida at all, she will never be able to go anywhere without a bodyguard, and I don't think retired Attorneys General are entitled to Secret Service protection. Who else has made a similar sacrifice for their principles? |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: GUEST,Cara Date: 25 Apr 00 - 02:18 PM Well said Jim. I saw Ms. Reno on Nightline last night and I am supremely impressed by her as well. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Jim the Bart Date: 25 Apr 00 - 02:22 PM Maybe this is the seed of yet another thread, but Why do we Americans (I cannot speak for the rest of the world) need to have a true-life, long-running soap opera to dominate our news/lifestyle shows/magazines? We've had Elian, Monica, O.J., and when things get slow the ever-recurrent JonBenet. The big media almost hope for that plane crash, nuclear meltdown or natural disaster. In between we have one election or another. . . We don't address our problems, we gawk at them. Oh, we care, we take sides, we site our sources, we rant out our opinions right on camera and then the big media spotlight moves on to the next story. Will the events surrounding Elian lead to a change in our relations with Cuba? Will the plight of the many political refugees desperately trying to get out of Rwanda or Haiti or other centers of oppression be any better because of the "debate" about the conpeting rights in this case? Nah - it's baseball season in America, time for picnics and walks in the park. It's the off-season. It's a wonder they didn't manage to save Elian during sweeps week. Would any of this have been necessary if we would have come normalized our relationship with Cuba years ago? We trade with China. We enter all kinds of devils bargains with worse guys then Fidel. What if Elian's relatives could freely visit them in Cuba and he could visit them here? I guess there just isn't any story in that. . . This thread had some nice stuff in it, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 25 Apr 00 - 03:10 PM You sound like Andy Rooney, Bartholomew--what do you want, should people shut up unless they have something "constructive" to say? And consider all the things that people say about the morbid need that gawkers have to look at a bloody accident--what do people would say about the ones who walk right by and ignore the accident entirely? Can anybody give me a good reason why we shouldn't be curious or interested in these events? Can anyone even show me a time or place when people weren't interested in this sort of thing? This stuff is going to happen, and when it does, people are going to be interested in it--human nature-- My problem is with the people who stand up and make the sweeping noble statements, or the statements of principled outrage--epecially when they tie their cheap grandstanding with implied promises about how everything could be fixed with a new program or new, hardhitting, legislation--if we did this or stopped doing that-- McGrath, I often agree with you, and have had occasion to think that you have good insights--but I think you are a bit off on this whole thing-- First, Cuba, and other Latin American countries, have similar, and sometimes even greater problems with endemic violence, to that in the US. And the problem is not an American problem--there is an increase in violent crime, particularly the seemingly unpovoked kind, throughout Europe, both Western and Eastern-- America is a big place, but with very tight communication links, so when something horrible happens in one place, everyone else has all the information immediately-- I (being an American) tend to think that it is touching that so many people care about the misfortunes of others--And we don't just gawk, we are very prone to send money, stuffed animals, food, or whatever crazy thing seems like it might help--Furthermore, when we are on the scene of the crime, the accident, or whatever, we tend to pitch in, whatever way we can--even at risk of life and limb, and even when it is for a complete stranger-- To finish this off--even though Elian and his family are going back to Cuba, we know that they will be back--because now they are celebrities--and symbols of the link between the United States and Cuba (as bizarre as that relationship is)-- Elian and Juan Miguel will return to Cuba as heroes--and of course, they are heroes here--the big question is, "What will happen next?" Stay tuned, Bartholomew!!!Whatever it is, it will be covered on all the major networks!!!!
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Whistle Stop Date: 25 Apr 00 - 03:13 PM Bartholomew, I have wondered the same thing. It almost seems like we can't live without this stuff any more. And it's not the most important stories that we latch onto -- it's the ones with all the TV-ready elements. So we're transfixed by Elian (cute boy, tragic loss, parental love, evil governments, etc.), but somehow forget that there are lots and lots of kids in crisis. We're riveted by the OJ saga (handsome celebrity, beautiful ex-wife, sex, crooked cops, sex, drugs, race, wealth), but ignore the fact that there are countless murders occurring every day in this country. The other thing that we seem to latch onto at all costs is communal grief over the deaths of celebrities we've never met, and who typically aren't worthy of the extreme deification that we confer on them -- whether it's Princess Diana, John F. Kennedy Junior, or any other person in the public eye who has passed away in recent days. I don't get it, but it's such a recurring situation that there must be a deep need out there. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Amergin Date: 25 Apr 00 - 03:54 PM There is no deep need out here. The media and those that are in control want us to believe that there is. They want us to beleive that those with the power and the money are close akin with god. They have been brainwashing us for centuries, for millenia into thinking they are all powerful, that our problems are of no concern, that our problems are small compared to theirs. And as long as the media continues to focus on a few tragedies, they will continue to feed us the lie that we are not what is important, that we exist only to serve their needs, that we are mindless creatures with no thoughts of our own. We have fed them all for a thousand years, it is time for them to feed themselves. Blessed be. Amergin |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Gary T Date: 25 Apr 00 - 03:58 PM Bartholomew and Whistle Stop, you've tapped into what I see as a significant weakness in the U.S. news media. Everything has to be bigger, louder, flashier. Better takes a back seat (or gets left behind). Hell, the flippin' weather people on TV can't tell you it's going to be hot without making it sound like half the city is liable to die of heat stroke, and ordinary thunderstorms (of which I lived through many as a kid) now garner constant warning banners across the screen. In my opinion, this is the result of there being a primary motivation of making money rather than reporting news. Sure, the public feeds this by watching the most sensational shows and buying the most flamboyant tabloids, but wouldn't it be nice if more newspeople didn't pander to that? |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: sophocleese Date: 25 Apr 00 - 04:02 PM Distraction, distraction, distraction. Its provided to distract people from talking about other, structural inequities that are harder to straighten. People read it because it distracts them from what bothers them in their lives that they can't change. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Petr Date: 25 Apr 00 - 04:08 PM I agree with Bartholomew & Whistlestop & Aine 100%. The most interesting aspect of the story is how the media pick it up and carry the ball to the point where everyone is sick of the issue. This is essentially a custody battle that has been publicized and politicized out of all proportion (By Castro, the Cuban community and the US govt and media). ditto with OJ and Monica. Its a daily soap opera. and we probably dont know the real truth. My first experience of how the news media operate was when they came in to do a story on a residential school for autistic children where I worked at the time. There was a behaviour expert who came for a few days with a completely new strategy of behaviour modification and the news showed him and One of the kids Day 1. Biting and hitting the expert and Day 3 hugging and kissing said expert. What a change! except that those of us who knew the child, knew that he could go from one to the other in a matter of seconds. The media did a dramatic story on the subject (and in the end) misrepresented everyones views. It left me wondering what the point was. A good story? And just how much of what we hear/see is a good story as opposed to truth. By the way they got Day 1 and Day 3 out of order. Petr. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Petr Date: 25 Apr 00 - 04:08 PM I agree with Bartholomew & Whistlestop & Aine 100%. The most interesting aspect of the story is how the media pick it up and carry the ball to the point where everyone is sick of the issue. This is essentially a custody battle that has been publicized and politicized out of all proportion (By Castro, the Cuban community and the US govt and media). ditto with OJ and Monica. Its a daily soap opera. and we probably dont know the real truth. My first experience of how the news media operate was when they came in to do a story on a residential school for autistic children where I worked at the time. There was a behaviour expert who came for a few days with a completely new strategy of behaviour modification and the news showed him and One of the kids Day 1. Biting and hitting the expert and Day 3 hugging and kissing said expert. What a change! except that those of us who knew the child, knew that he could go from one to the other in a matter of seconds. The media did a dramatic story on the subject (and in the end) misrepresented everyones views. It left me wondering what the point was. A good story? And just how much of what we hear/see is a good story as opposed to truth. By the way they got Day 1 and Day 3 out of order. Petr. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: katlaughing Date: 25 Apr 00 - 05:06 PM Jim Dixon, well-said! Ms. Reno is in unchartered territory as the first female AG and think she should be applauded for her even-handed manner and calm. I feel sorry for her that her disease is getting worse, yet she perseveres, despite the very partisan and sickening posturing of her detractors. Have any of you tried NOT watching television news? It is liberating and healthy. Reading a newspaper, listening to BBC and NPR news on the radio, seems to bring a much more balanced reality to reporting. America seems to be full of what I call vicarious lifers: people who live their lives out through the latest news/soap opera, etc. on television. And, sophocleese was right on when she said it is a distratcion from what they cannot face in their own lives. They are marking time and, to me, it is a tragedy. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Apr 00 - 05:13 PM The point I was making wasn't that random massacres of children by ther children in schools (and now in a zoo)mean that the United States is necessarily worse than other places in the world. In all sorts of ways it is better than lots of other places - and in others it is worse. That is something the USA has in common with other countries, including those it regards as pariahs.
I was indicating some scepticism about the glib assumption that comes across from some commentators in the media, and in this thread at times(are we media or not? I think we probably are - we're just not mass media).
I mean the assumption that clearly anybody who isn't crazy or wicked or brainwashed is going to prefer to live in the United States rather than anywhere else, especially Cuba, and that it would obviously be better for Juan Rodriguez to stay in thge States and bring up his son here.
I doubt if there is any depravity committed by the Cuban government that can't be matched by the American government. I doubt if there is any sickness in Cuban society that can't be matched by what has happened and what still happens in America.
And you could say the same about most countries. We see something going wrong over there, and it's a different kind of going wrong from the stuff that we take for granted where we are. And we think we are so much better than they are.
It's been said before, and said better, by someone whom most Americans claim to respect: Do not judge and you will not be judged, because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get...Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the plank in your own? How dare you say to your brother "Let me take the splinter out of your eye", when all the time there is a plank in your own? Hypocrite!Take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brothers's eye.
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Apr 00 - 06:05 PM Thank you Magrath. While a breath of sanity is blowing, and we might be prepared to admit that capitalism is not ordained by God, and htat there may be room for debate on where it would be better for Elian to live, would someone care to expand the point that Castro had to liberate Cuba from American capitalism and exploitation, and would anyone else like to take up the argument I raised about two threads ago that the US legal system is surely backward looking in regarding children as property the subject of parental rights? It's not that I necessarily think it wrong that Elain had to go back - it's just that I would like the decision taken sensibly. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 25 Apr 00 - 06:34 PM Ah hogwash. In England, the US, and Ireland we have the ability to say what we think (including criticising our own government), go where we want(even to leaving the country if we want), we have a free press(whatever we may think of their actions and motives), and a right to a peaceful revolution every 2-6 years(it's called an election). As a member of a free society I have a right to criticise my own country, as well as any other. More to the point, I have a DUTY to point a finger at any Repressive Fascist Dictatorship (such as the one in Cuba)and call someone like Castro a scoundrel, especially since no one in his country can do so without risking death or incarceration. Enough of this "nobody's perfect so just keep your mouth shut" blabber. There is some question of degree of transgressions. Winston Churchill, even if his country was keeping India under the yoke of Colonialism, had every right to call the NAZI Regime a band of murdering thugs. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Apr 00 - 07:26 PM Richard Bridge---- I DID take up your point of two threads past regarding children's rights and custodial fights here in the US. Evidently you decided not to pursue it with me because I am just the resident genial buffoon or something. Maybe I need a law degree to state my case. But the subject was addressed by me at that time. Spaw--Genial Buffoon |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: kendall Date: 25 Apr 00 - 07:34 PM I've just returned from a road trip, so, havn't been keeping up..to answer someones question..every local paper I've seen here has shown two photos. The big one shows the Marshal pointing a rifle at the man who was holding Elian. The look on the boys face was one of fear (well dah) the small photo shows Elian smiling in his fathers arms. The news media make me sick. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: katlaughing Date: 25 Apr 00 - 07:36 PM If Americans have something truly to be outraged about, it was clearly illustrated in a couple of stories on NPR just now. The contrasts are stark: The first is an interview with a man who chronicles the devastation of minority-area schools...no library books because the school libraries have been dismantled; a high school with 1,000 9th graders, of whom only 65 will make it to graduation from high school; the same high school he calls a land of apartheid. The link for the story will be up first thing tomorrow. It is striking how much this man cares and how he does something about what he sees. He has a powerful voice and delivery of words.Here's the blurb: "ORDINARY RESURRECTIONS" -- Noah talks with Jonathan Kozol (koh-ZAHL) about his new book "Ordinary Resurrections - Children in the Years of Hope." In the late 1960's Kozol wrote about teaching fourth grade in Boston. "Death at an Early Age" has now sold two million copies and is still widely read by beginning teachers. His later books have been about educational inequalities in the South Bronx, and the new one is simply about his conversations with the children he's come to know. He describes Pinapple, a charming eight-year-old, and other youngsters, and their curiosity about the outside world, "white and safe." Kozol says the children have taught him to pray again. (12:00) {STATIONS NOTE PUBLISHING INFO:} Ordinary Resurrections is from Crown Publishers New York ISBN 0-517-7000-X." The other was a report on the meeting of Janet Reno with members of Congress, today. I got up cursing the devisive, extreme partisanship I heard spewing from the mouths of Trent Lott and few other pompous asses. Now, they want to start a series of hearings, drag it on, decide if Juan is a fit father, because he was informed that guns would be taken for use in the raid to get his son! These are the same pro-gun assholes who don't give a shit about kids being killed. Sorry, I could go on and on. Finally, I heard Chris Dodd of Connecticut say it was time for Congress to let the Gonsalez family heal, deal with the court system etc., and get back to very real business of this country. Gee, do ya 'spose, maybe like, oh, I dunno, geting our school s abck into shape!?NO! I am incensed first of all that Congress ever got involved in a custody case and two, that all this congress has done for 8 years is run up huge bills in obfuscatory bullshit trying bring down anyone and anything remotely related to President Clinton. They have not legislated...they have been instransigent and have nothing but their own agendas in mind. They do not give a goddamn about American or her peoples and all of them should be voted out. And now, we get more hearings, more huge costs, to the taxpayers only. Like I said, for me the contrasts were mind-boggling. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: GUEST,Peter K Date: 25 Apr 00 - 07:45 PM Lonesome, the USA may be the most disgusting nation on earth in many different ways, but there's no way you can say that its press has less freedom than the British press. It's the other way around, and by a wide margin. Just ask Harold Evans.But then when you see how a free press behaves, it's time to start wondering whether a free press is that big a deal. It's the blithe hypocrisy that gets me most about the states. A congressman was asked on TV the other day why the USA still maintained trading sanctions against Cuba. The answer was that "we don't trade with dictators". That's breathtaking. Half the dictators in the world were installed by USA agencies or USA commercial interests and many others - including some of the worst - have been propped up by Washington.Remember Zaire, or the Shah's Iran, Pinochet (installed to replace an elected government)? |
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Subject: Miami Gonzalez Family Exposed In a Lie! From: Jim Dixon Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:05 PM Miami Gonzalez Family Exposed In a Lie! Check out this article in American Politics Journal. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Jim the Bart Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:14 PM I don't mind being taken to task for grandstanding, if that's what I was doing, but I have to stand by my other post. Unfortunately, MTED, I'm beginning to look like Andy Rooney, too. I don't think we should shut our eyes and walk by when things happen. My participation in this thread betrays my interest in discussing the "human drama". And I don't think muzzling the Press is a good idea - their importance in this here democracy of our'n is not disputed here. And maybe that's what bothers me about what I see in the media, both written and on-the-air. We do not get the news; we get news stories. And that undermines the importance of the media as a means for keeping us informed. My reference to the coverage of many of these stories as soap operas is not unintentional. In the soaps you get synthetic emotions, easily identifiable heroes and villains, contrived situations and convenient resolutions. And that's what people want to see in their new shows, too. So that's what they get. You are right, some people pay attention to these things for all the right reasons - to provide help if possible, out of real concern. But too many people are looking for a quick fix in the sex and/or violence zone. It is nothing but voyeurism. And if you want to talk about cheap, there it is. In my opinion. Regarding the topic, rather than the context in which I have been seeing it. . . Although I think Janet Reno made the right call here, there seems to be a pattern of long drawn out negotiating, followed by a quick and often violent ending. I'm not sure how it could have been handled better, given the public spotlight and the tendency for people to polarize around these situations in this country. For the child's sake a quick resolution, based on the law and the facts would have been best. But public debate on all issues in the news is seen as a given these days, and the administration would have been blasted if everyone wasn't given a chance to voice their opinion. It was a no win situation made worse, not better, (again in my opinion) by it's value as programming. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:24 PM Peter K...I've just re-read my statement above, and am baffled how you managed to glean that I said the US Press has less freedom than the UK press. On contrary, I would say that freedom of the press, for better or worse, is nearly unfettered in both countries. You take the good with the bad when any kind of freedom is unfettered. The same press that gave us two years of Jon Benet Ramsey also brought down the corrupt Richard Nixon- the blade cuts both ways. The trade embargo on Cuba is a relic of the cold war, of American anger at Castro for declaring a communist state in the Carribbean. I for one think that it is has outlived any usefulness it had, and think it should be ended. Castro will fall either way. During the post-World War 2 period, the United States and its allies in NATO and SEATO supported many repressive regimes in the name of the "lesser of two evils". With the end of the Cold War, the need to control countries to keep them from joining the opposing block has evaporated, and global intercession by the US has by and large taken place to avert genocide (see Bosnia), to feed the starving (see Somalia), or to put a misguided despot in his place(see Kuwait). For better or worse, the people of the United States, or Britain, determine the direction their country takes. If that direction is wrong, the people must be shown that, and the direction can be changed. Would you and I be having this conversation in Cuba? |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: SINSULL Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:32 PM It took less than 24 hours. A picture of Elian and fisherman at gunpoint appeared in my email with the caption "Drop the chalupa". I keep thinking of Solomon deciding to cut the child in half. One parent agreed (and stuck a helpless baby in the middle of a media frenzy); the other stood back and said "No, don't hurt my child" (and eventually tucked him away with family and loved ones away from prying eyes and flashing cameras). Sorry for the maudlin sentimentality but my child would never be subjected to the circus Elian endured. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 25 Apr 00 - 09:00 PM Bartholomew, I didn't mean that you were grandstanding--I was talking about the professional grandstanders--the politicians and TV "news" people whose coverage of an issue is two sentences and a pained expression-- The thing that gets me now is that the Republicans jumped to the call of the Miami Cubans so fast--When was the last time you saw a Congressional investigation of something begin four days after it happened?
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Greg F. Date: 25 Apr 00 - 09:10 PM You mean Capitalism ISN'T ordained by God? And Kat, don't pick on the poor Republicans. They can't help it. Its a disease. Massive die-off of brain cells..... |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: katlaughing Date: 25 Apr 00 - 09:20 PM LOL!!! |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Jim the Bart Date: 25 Apr 00 - 11:53 PM MTED - sorry, I misunderstood. But the being Andy Rooneyed hit too close to home. It's much too easy to assume an ironic or learned pose and make grand statements that don't necessarily move a discussion forward. This is why Andy Rooney always bugged me. That and his keen eye for the obvious. And that's what has bugged me about the coverage of this story. I assumed that Elian had been living with his mother; I always assume that the Mom gets custody when the parents divorce. I don't ever remember hearing that there was a real relationship between father and son on the nightly news; just that there was no history of abuse by the father. I believe they call that "damning by faint praise". I just learned that the Mom had taken the boy from school without the father's permission yesterday. And even that scene was painted in colors chosen carefully for maximum effect. And is it true that the family hadn't told Elian that his mom was dead? Who can pick the little bits of truth out of all this? All I really know about this mess is that the opposition gets to stick it to the administration in an election year, the "gallant Cuban expatriots" milked their moment in the spotlight for all its worth, and Fidel gets to tug on his beard and give the middle digit salute to his ancient enemy one more time. Bah! Let the boy and his father be and to the devil with the rest of 'em |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: GUEST,Peter K Date: 26 Apr 00 - 05:35 AM Lonesome, sorry I misread. But you're still way out to equate the freedom of the press in Britain with that in the states. The British libel laws (protecting only the rich and privileged) and lack of any freedom of information legislation (which the Freedom of Information Bill now going through parliament will do little to address) make an enormous difference. Many public figures in Britain have got away with their crimes by threatening to sue, Jonathan Aitken style. As it happens, Aitken's bluff was called and he was proved to have perjured himself. But that was aa a sheer fluke. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: GUEST,Bob A. Ghanouj Date: 26 Apr 00 - 07:59 AM Truth went down the street for a pack of ciggies ten years ago and hasn't been seen since.... |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: kendall Date: 26 Apr 00 - 08:04 AM Right on Kat..just remember, the republicans are only doing what they must do in order to regain the white house. And, they will do it.. anything, that is. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Whistle Stop Date: 26 Apr 00 - 09:25 AM Kat, I couldn't agree more. Of all the pathetic political posturing, maneuvering and dodging we've seen from our Republican-majority congress over the last few years, the despicable words and actions of Trent Lott, Tom DeLay and their cohorts over the last few days really stand out. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: kendall Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:45 AM Lott wants to ban butcher knives..now, thats leadership!!! |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: GUEST,Angel Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:24 AM "ELIAN WILL CONTINUE TO DOMINATE NEWS" Elian Gonzalez is back with his father, but his soap opera is far from over. CNN, MSNBC and other television networks have renewed the show for at least another season, confident that Americans haven't had their fill of the 6-year-old Cuban boy and his emotional second cousin. Even ABC's "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" can't match the ratings of "Who Wants to be Elian's Guardian?" Especially with a cast as glamorous as Lazaro Gonzalez, the great-uncle, Donato Dalrymple, the great fisherman, and Marisleysis Gonzalez, the great actress. Republicans will provide more drama for the show by launching an inquiry into the pre-dawn federal raid that snatched Elian from his relatives' Miami home. The congressional hearing will offer communist Cuba another lesson in the workings of a democracy. This lesson will be called "how to waste taxpayers' money." A number of other events will keep Elian in the news for a long time: MAY: An appeals court rules that Elian is old enough to apply for political asylum on his own. The court also rules that Elian is old enough to drive, smoke and drink. JUNE: The stock market gets a major boost as investors spend a record $50 billion to buy into a new Internet company: Elian.com. The Web site allows people around the world to comment on Elian's case, chat with Elian and offer to pay for his college education. JULY: Strapped to pay their mounting legal bills, Elian's relatives in Miami decide to sell the bed he slept in for five months. Though damaged in the federal raid, the bed fetches $2 billion on eBay. They spend part of the money to organize a massive protest in Washington, D.C., dubbed the "Million Cuban March to Free Elian From His Loving Father." AUGUST: Elian signs endorsement deals with Pepsi, Cheerios and Colgate. But in a surprising move, he refuses to endorse any of the presidential candidates. A disappointed Al Gore nevertheless tries to win the critical Cuban- American vote by saying, "If I'm elected, the White House will have only honorable interns, such as that cute cousin of Elian's." George W. Bush goes a step further, pledging to appoint Elian -- whether or not he learns English -- as secretary of state. "He'd help improve relations with Cuba," Bush says. "He'd be able to speak to that Fidel guy, whatever his last name is." SEPTEMBER: Life magazine revives itself by changing its name to Elian's Life. Each issue features new pictures of Elian smiling beside his father. The magazine attracts 5 million new readers with pictorials such as "Elian meets the Pope," "Elian visits the White House," and "Elian replaces Kathie Lee." Marisleysis Gonzalez challenges the authenticity of the photographs, asking, "How come Elian's hair never moves?" Republicans launch another inquiry. OCTOBER: Republicans finally decide to support a gun control bill. The bill would restrict the use of automatic weapons -- not by ordinary citizens and criminals, but by federal agents. "We cannot have our agents carrying such powerful weapons when raiding homes," Sen. Bob Smith says. "Elian was scared to death and his second cousin, Marisleysis, has been traumatized for life. Poor girl may never own a machine gun." NOVEMBER: Cuban-American singer Gloria Estefan returns to the top of the music charts with a new album called "Illegal Elian." The title song includes these lyrics: "Elian, we wanted you to stay, but Janet Reno's thugs stole you away. Elian, they put you in an Astro van, just to send you to the Castro man." DECEMBER: Fidel Castro, still beaming about the raid on the Gonzalez home, offers to appoint Janet Reno as Cuba's attorney general. "Here in Cuba, you can use as much force as you want," Castro says. "You won't have to worry about being criticized. We don't have any Republicans." JANUARY 2001: The American Red Cross hires Elian to teach a survival course. The first part of the course is called "how to survive in the ocean when your boat capsizes." The second part is called "how to survive a five-month stay with an annoying cousin and drunken uncle." Melvin Durai is a Shippensburg, Pa.-based writer and humorist. A native of India, he grew up in Zambia and moved to the U.S. in the early 1980s. http://www.Humor.Melvin.com
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Amergin Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:25 AM Maybe he's afraid of being Bobbited. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: katlaughing Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:36 AM GUEST, Angel, THANK YOU for posting that! Well-done! For anyone who is interested in listening to the superb and compassionate author I mentioned above, here is the link to the NPR page which has the audio available. You just have to scroll down a bit to find it. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Apr 00 - 02:51 PM "Enough of this "nobody's perfect so just keep your mouth shut" blabber. There is some question of degree of transgressions."
As you say, Lonesome. Degree of transfressions. Castro's done lots of things I don't like.
But he's never invaded a country on the other side of the woorld and killed two million of its people, and 50,000 of his own in a futile war. (Yes,I know about sending Cuban troops to support the Angolan government against a South African incursion - not quite the same thing)
He's never had one of his warships shoot down a civilian airbus, killing all 300 people on board, and then given the captain and the crew a decoration.
There are two million American citizens in prison. That's a higher proportion than of Cuban citizens in Cuban prisons.
To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been a single massacre of children in a Cuban school carried out by another child.
The point I'm making is not that America's evil and Cuba's not. I'm just saying it's not all one way. Freedom of speech is important, but it's not the only freedom. America scores high on freedom of speech - a lot higher than England - but there are some things on which it doesn't score so high. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: bob schwarer Date: 26 Apr 00 - 06:32 PM His Migs managed to shoot down a couple of light planes a few years back. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Apr 00 - 06:34 PM To hell with all of our rants, I can get to Shipppensburg from here!! Should I Praisepoem the brilliant Melvin into a Mudcat membership? Melvin for PR Director! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Apr 00 - 07:14 PM "His Migs managed to shoot down a couple of light planes a few years back."
Hardly really measures up to what the US Vincennes did on the 3rd July 1988, when it shot down a civilian airliner,killing 290 people, all civilians, largely women and children. President Reagan described it as "a proper defensive action".
And then Reagan went off to a 4th of July celebration, and none of the flags flown that day were put at half-mast. And a few weeks later the Captain of the Vincennes was given a medal. Puboic opinion polls gave it that 80% of Americans thought what had happened had been justified.
It probably wasn't an intentional atrocity, it was a mistake - a gung-ho commander breaking all the rules because he wanted to use his weaponry, resulting in a massacre of innocent people; and then those in charge decided it would be better to cover it all up, blame the victims, and decorate the man responsible, instead of court-martialling him. Things like this happen in all countries. They've certainly happened in the British armed forces, certainly happened in France - yes, and very likely in Cuba too. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: kendall Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:36 AM Those light planes were spying..Castro was fully justified. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: Escamillo Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:18 AM I have been reading this thread with interest, but I think it is a very sensible subject involving two nations which are sisters of mine, and it´s difficult to give an opinion from this hemisphere. However as a father and as a Latin American I´m much satisfied to see so serious concern from everybody, about the tragedy of this Latin family. Thanks to all. Un abrazo - Andrés (in Buenos Aires, Argentina) |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:53 AM McGrath, I am getting really tired of your stream of America-bashing--You don't know anything about the United States, about life here, about our economy, or about our real problems--an you are carrying on as if you were the high inquisitor- You have been reading and hearing about incidents that are so far from the ordinary here that we are all shocked by them and have trouble even finding a context to fit them into-- Crime of all sorts, including violent crime, involving guns--has been declining here for quite a number of years-- But certain types of crime sell newspapers, and and keep people watching TV news-- Crime is also a political issue--the liberal politicians make an issue of every gun related incident because there is a perception that it makes the conservatives look bad because of the "gun lobbby"-- Most Americans know how to filter the political spin out of the news, and they have learned how to discount the lurid and distorted tabloid coverage-- Unfortunately, many of our European friends, who imagine themselves to be better educated and more sophisticated than Americans, have yet to learn these skills--
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:03 PM M.Ted: I'm a natchul born American- all 56 years of me- and I don't think McGrath can be accused of anything CLOSE to "America-Bashing". He seems to know a great deal more about the real situation in America than you do. That's one of the advantages of not getting all your news from the U.S. Media. You should try it- then maybe you'd begin to see why the US alternately horrifies & amuses foreign nationals! Sorry, but the U. S. of A. is not the be-all and end-all of the universe. |
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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2 From: SDShad Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:16 PM Yank's right on that. I'm the son of a Korea vet and son-in-law of a vet of every major amphibious landing of the European Theatre in WWII, and I'm more than a little troubled by the captain of the Vincennes getting a medal. Sadly, I can't think of a thing McGrath has said about our fair land that isn't true, M.Ted. Chris |