 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Elian 3
|
|
|
Subject: Elian 3 From: Jim Dixon Date: 27 Apr 00 - 03:42 PM I'm starting this new thread because it appears that the Elian 2 thread has been taken over by people who consider the Elian Gonzalez problem to be a small part of a larger problem, and they are busy debating the "larger" problem, whatever that is. While this point of view certainly has merit, I think the "smaller" issues are plenty large enough to deserve their own thread, so I would like to ask the people interested in discussing FOREIGN POLICY, SOCIALISM vs. CAPITALISM, DEMOCRACY vs. DICTATORSHIP, etc. to PLEASE STAY OUT OF THIS THREAD. More thoughts on the Elian Gonzalez case: 1. Did anyone notice my earlier posting about the door? When Marisleysis Gonzalez conducted a CNN video crew on a tour of her house a few hours after the raid, she tearfully pointed out 2 or 3 broken doors. Especially impressive was the door to the bedroom where Elian was found. The door was BROKEN IN HALF! Half still attached to the hinges, half lying on the floor. However the infamous pictures taken by the Associated Press photographer clearly show the same door was intact as the raiders were ON THEIR WAY OUT. So … 2. What happens next? There will be a hearing, I understand, where the main question to be decided is whether a 6-year-old is competent to file a request for political asylum in his own right. This issue is ridiculous for 3 reasons: a) The very concept of a 6-year-old making such life-changing decisions is ridiculous. b) Even if the application is considered a valid application, it is ridiculous to think Elian will be "persecuted" in Cuba - he is a hero there! And therefore he doesn't meet the legal criteria for asylum and it should be disapproved. c) Even in the VERY unlikely event that political asylum is granted, asylum only means that he will be ALLOWED to stay in the US; it doesn't mean he can be FORCED to stay. All Elian will have to say is, "I changed my mind. I want to go home with Dad," and they will have to let him leave. Those who argued that he was competent when he wanted to stay will look pretty foolish arguing that he is incompetent when he wants to leave. Nevertheless, I hope the application is NOT accepted because I'm afraid it will set a dangerous precedent. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:01 PM Uh, Jim. I believe that MTed started the original Elian thread. If anyone has the right to direct the dicussion, it would be him, not you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Jim Dixon Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:29 PM Lonesome EJ, your point is well taken. However, since I can't take back a posting once I have put it up, I guess we're stuck with it. (If I could take it back, I would change the title to something like "Elian: the small picture", but I otherwise stand by everything I said. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: SDShad Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:34 PM On the other hand, Jim, the other thread was gettin' kinda long, so creating a third thread wasn't a bad idea regardless.... Chris |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: katlaughing Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:50 PM Threads have lives and minds of their own...they go where the community takes them..free association with some backroads, twists, turns, switchbacks, rocky roads, smooth pavement.... Still, you made some very good points about the idiocy of it all. The Republican congresspeople of Wyoming are glad he's back with his father, but calling Reno all kinds of names, saying she and Clinton are *gasp* evil. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Rick Fielding Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:56 PM Small picture Jim? Kid's mother drowns. Kid's father alive and well. Kid goes to father. End of story. Rick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Jim Dixon Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:34 PM I was being ironic. If communism vs. capitalism is the "big picture," then what happens to Elian is the "little picture." Nevertheless, it is a picture I care very much about. To continue: Anyone who wants to really educate themselves on the Elian Gonzalez case, go here: INS documents. Did anyone catch Alan Dershowitz's remarks on Geraldo Rivera's show last night on CNBC? I generally have great respect for Mr. Dershowitz, so I was very surprised to find that he thinks the seizure of Elian was illegal, on civil libertarian grounds. Some of his logic escapes me. He said something like, "No American has to obey an administrative decision of the US government. We only have to obey the courts." That's an astonishing statement. Does it mean I don't have to pay taxes? When someone pointed out that the INS had a search warrant, he said (paraphrasing): "Have you seen that warrant? It's trash!" I really don't know what he meant by that. Today, I've been searching for some web site that has a transcript, or even a summary of Dershowitz's remarks, but I have been unable to find one. Can anyone help?
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:54 PM You left out a bit there Rick....add: "...whole thing takes 48 hours." And Jim......Partner, we don't have irony here. We have people out-scholaring each other on Carrickfergus and and the possible uses of possum assholes in tribal rituals. Their is no room for irony and it often gets in the road when we are searching for the exact third word in the fifth line of the ninety second verse of "Diddle My Fiddle" or coming up with new recipes for grits. Please post ironies as such and label them clearly. Thanks. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Jim Dixon Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:28 PM How come nobody responds to my posts except to correct me about my use of irony, or to talk about the etiquette of posting? Doesn't anyone want to talk about the Elian case any more? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:46 PM Jim.......It is considered bad form to post personal referencing questions within the context of a thread dealing with different subject matter and can label you as a non-serious person. Your preceding post can also be viewed as containing ironic comment which you failed to label as such. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Jim Dixon Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:49 PM I give up. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:09 PM Jim.......I hope you realize that I am simply kidding you. Does anyone want to talk about Elian? I suppose some will. The time is long past though for any simple answers or thinking that mass pressure will accomplish anything. Indeed, if the polls are to be believed, the citizens of this country are overwhelmingly in favor of following the father's wishes. Had an identical situation happened here within the US, the child would have been returned to the custodial, legal, parent within 48 hours. That has happened within my own county on numerous occasions. Now, too much time has passed and too many are involved. A few years ago, I sat on a panel at a National conference called to come up with recommendations for improving the foster/adoptive system within the US. When my turn came, my presentation was on the virtue of time and how the time constraints of the legal system and antiquated laws glommed up the works and resulted in problems for kids. Too much time.....Too many agendas.....Too much of everything except understanding. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Petr Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:42 PM I think the big picture is the fact that this is such a big story. The most fascinating thing about this topic is that it has become a soap opera it is after all a custody case. Each character has been depicted in a different light depending on whose side youre on. I tried to avoid listening to the story on the news and getting involved in the discussion, because there are millions of custody battles why should this one be all that much more important. I agree with the person who suggested taking a news fast it really is a good feeling not to hear about the latest shooting or mudslide or whatever. Petr |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: GUEST, Threadie Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:50 PM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:03 PM Jim, You have my endorsement for this thread--although I am not sure what the protocol is, because the thread that got out of hand was Elian 2, which I didn't actually start, but I did contribute heavily to sending it off-track--Sorry-- I am slowing down, because I have more than thirty verses, not counting the ones I have to write today on the judicial ruling-- I must say that I have been sick of Alan Dershowitz for a long time, I have thought that his legal commentary generally has been blatant self promotion, as this is--promtional--his intent simply enough, is to become part of the legal team, and he used the media to communicate his proposed strategy to the Familia Otra Gonzales-- What he says is really accurate--but all it means is that if you don't believe that an administrative action of the government(which techincally, means any action) is legal, and you choose not to comply with it, then only the courts have the authority to compel you to comply, and only after you have the hearing that you are constitutionally assured--(I am sorry if I am drifted into the area you have forbidden, but you asked the question!!!) He is just pointing out what every American schoolchild knows--but in a way that makes it seem like he thought of it, therefore makes him look like the best attorney to hire-- What he neglects to point out is, the placement of Elian in the home was an administrative decision of the US Government--so if the removal wasn't binding, then the placaement wasn't really binding, either--Since it was Janet Reno who put him there, and Janet Reno who took him out, it would be pretty hard to argue that she had the power to decide where Elian should be when she put him there, but she didn't have the powere when she took him out--The only authority that the FOZ had to keep Elian was given to them by the DOJ-- Yesterday, I had a website up that busted on Maryslesis (sorry, but her name sounds like a urinary tract procedure) for obviously trashing the door--did I get that link from you somehow or another? It was also pointed out to me that there is a large box of BD syringes in the closet that Donato Dalrymple had taken Elian to-- If you check the AP site, you can see the other shots that Alan Diaz, the "official" photographer took, including one before the INS agent came into the room--it is obvious that he place the two of them in the half opened closet to set up a photo--isn't this the kind of interfering with the news that is considered to be highly un-ethical? "Spaw, if you aren't going to stay on topic, go back over to the busking thread, where someone mentioned how well they used to do with a hammered dulcimer---
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: GUEST, Threadie Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:06 PM Sounds like something for 'Spaw, all right! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:45 PM Gee Ted.....When was I off topic? Jim Dixon was looking for the small picture and I agreed with Rick and added a few comments of my own.......NOW, how you wish to take them is of course your business, as is how much heartbreak you wish to endure over the plight of one child when there are thousands in peril and unsafe of neglectful homes within this country. I am sadly quite desensitised to the problems of neglect and abuse as I have lived with them to the point of numbness. The "Small Picture" here is so simple that it could have been handled by the most inept caseworker in the worst agency in the country and have already been stated. The problems of our child custody laws and slow moving judicial systems have occupied the greater part of my life for ten years and I am still plugging away. Humor?...."If I laugh at any mortal thing, tis that I may not weep.".......Without those words, I would have lost it years ago. Spaw
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: GUEST, Threadie Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:50 PM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:02 PM Petr, I think that your point is really an important one(sorry, I hadn't gotten your post when I wrote the one above)--the most interesting thing about this topic is that it is a topic--and I have thought about how it came to be such a big topic-- I went back and read the first articles--from the first few days, when the story was just getting put together--It is an amazing story--forget the politics--the story that the survivors told about the overcrowded boat, the engine dying, the boat taking on water--everyone taking to the inner tubes, and one by one just giving up hope and letting go of the tubes, til no one was left but this little six year old--and he just held on-- He didn't just survive--he watched while ten adults, one of whom was his mother, gave up and died, one by one--and he just held on-- That's the story--and they don't get any better than that!!!
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: GUEST, Fred's Mother Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:05 PM Well that's all very nice. Can you give him back to his father, now? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: GUEST,GRNJ Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:18 PM I'm repeating what I said on Elian2 (Hope that's allowed), because I'm just totally frustrated with they way the issue is being reported. Here are (to me) some very important points not being brought out in the media. (1) A law enforcement agency is not required to "negotiate" with someone who is breaking the law. If they choose to do so tactically in some situation, fine, but to express outrage when they give up talking and make their move is ridiculous. (2) Statements that there was no court order are also ridiculous. In addition to the several decisions that supported the INS'legal authority, there was a search warrant to seize the child, which happens to be a court order, which amounted to a finding that the child was being held illegally, and ordered officers to seize the child. (3) An order specifically ordering L.Gonzalez to surrender the child would almost certainly have been ignored. L.G. would likely have simply gone to prison for contempt, and taken on the martyr role, while the family would still have the child for months on end. (4) Never spoken by Reno or anyone else, but something I am *sure* was considered, (professional experience): There was certainly a growing risk that the Miami family was going to sneak the child out of the house and hide him, which would have totally thwarted the government and been disastrous. The family would have gone to jail, but they would have just soaked up the "martyr" business and kept this thing going for years. (5) There is no issue about whether excessive force was used, because no force was used at all, except on Lazaro's door and on a few people who got shoved out of the way. This is well within what is permissible in executing a search warrant, and was clearly necessary. The minimal force used was absolutely lawful. (6) Carping about officers being "armed" and guns being "drawn" is nonsensical. Law enforcement officers are always armed, and submachine guns have to be "drawn". Have you ever seen a submachine gun holster? You could ask whether SWAT uniforms, equipment, and tactics were overkill, but this is just a style point; it has no bearing on the legality or propriety of the raid. I am inclined to give the benefit of doubt to those who had to execute the raid. Bottom Line: The raid was legal and nothing was done during the raid that was legally or logically objectionable. There is nothing to "investigate". There is nothing for "hearings" to "look into". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:25 PM And of course there is the cost which is now running over half a million bucks.......for one case........for one family.........for one child.......... Our agency has a yearly budget (not enough) of 1.2 million for over 800 cases and 118 kids in foster care. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: GUEST, Charley's Aunt Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:43 PM And who gives a shit about that 'Spaw? You tell it like it is, boy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: The Beanster Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:29 PM GRNJ, Very well put. I agree 100%. And M.Ted, speaking of that AP photographer, the morning of the seizure when I was watching this stuff on the news and saw that now infamous shot of the INS agent with gun at the ready, it occurred to me, hmmmm, although the family members say this raid was totally unexpected, there they have an AP photog standing by at 5:15 in the morning, and hey, how convenient--he happens to be in the bedroom when the INS breaks in! What a coincidence! Lucky break, I guess. It was SO obvious that this photographer is a family friend/sympathizer, I'm not surprised about what you report was a posed shot of the fisherman with Elian in the closet doorway. Is this journalism? Puhleez. Such an egregious manipulation of the press is just as horrifying to me as the three-ring circus this non-newsworthy story has evolved into. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Gary T Date: 28 Apr 00 - 08:35 AM GRNJ, right on! Beanster, the stories I read indicated that the photog was outside the house, on the street or sidewalk, but quickly grasped what was happening and leaped over the front yard fence in order to do his thing. What amazes me is that he wasn't shoved out of the way. He may have been very adept at knowing where to stand so as to not get shoved away. I haven't seen any indication that he was in cahoots with either the family or the feds. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: SINSULL Date: 28 Apr 00 - 09:49 AM Today's News: Meanwhile, a group of nine Cubans arrived in the United States to see Elian in Maryland: four schoolmates from his hometown of Cardenas, four of their parents and Elian's doctor. President Fidel Castro saw them off. Does this mean that lawsuits will be filed to keep these children in the US? And if not, why not? Won't they also have better lives here than in Cuba?
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Greg F. Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:07 AM Pleeeze, Sinsull! Don't give the nutcases any new ideas or we'll be paying for dozens of lawsuits. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:37 AM Diaz is acknowledged by the Otra Familia Gonzales as both a friend and as the "official" photographer of Elian--he was staying in the house next door--Again, if you look at the photos, there is a shot taken with Donato and Elian posed half way in the closet, looking at the closed door, before the INS agent entered the room--
I have mentioned this before, I'll say it again, check the archive of news articles at Miami Herald Online --you have to click a little line under the latest photo of Elian that says "The Complete Story" and you will get a list of all the articles from day one to today--plus lots of related links--
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: SINSULL Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:42 AM Sorry, Greg F. I keep seeing that picture of the starving African boy in my mind and it infuriates me that thousands are being spent on this Cuban child while others are dying. Some right in my own home city. Bleeding Liberal, SS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: Greg F. Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:53 AM I couldn't agree with you more, SS- I just don't think the right-wing lunatic fringe needs any "helpful suggestions"*BG* They're doing fine on their own. up Greg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 28 Apr 00 - 11:01 AM In the Miami Herald this AM--a boat, overloaded with 300 Haitians, went aground in the Bahamas, killing a fair number--I doubt if this will get much media play, since Jessie Jackson is the about the only friend that the the Haitian refugees seem to have-- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: The Beanster Date: 28 Apr 00 - 11:34 PM M.Ted, that makes a lot of sense about Mr. Diaz, the AP photog. He did several interviews in the aftermath of the publication of the photo and was not at all shy about making his personal views very clear. Did he bother taking photos of the Gonzales family trashing their own home after the INS left (breaking the door in half, etc.)? If AP weren't making a mint off this photo and if they had any journalistic scruples, they would fire this man. I'm going to think twice in the future, whenever I see an AP photo. The situation with the Haitian boat is horrific. I heard on the news that the survivors have already been packed up and sent back to Haiti. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Elian 3 From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 29 Apr 00 - 03:04 AM For me, this is no longer a question of child custody (if it ever really was--INS documents seem to indicate that Lazaro always intended to return Elian to his father)-- The story just keeps careening onward--there were to be congressional hearings, and now suddenly the are off-The Municipal gov't in Miami is going into Meltdown, and the Republican Presidential Candidate is now at loggerheads with his party leadership-- What is going really going on here? What are the forces at play? The key thing is that nothing really out of the ordinary happened, at least not since the boat sank.. Even the "bad guys" haven't done anything really bad, and what they did do has been pretty much undone--and yet everybody is taking up sides and going crazy--and even worse than before-- It is a puzzlement-- |