BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:29 PM

Once againg you look over the issues raised, answer them, g'wan , some chance! and I'm not sleggin.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:39 PM

Ireland, Next to Teribus you have the greatest ability to misread other peoples posts and twist them to fit your agenda that I've run into here in the world of cats.

In the most simple terms, yes, spitting went on by a very, very small number of vets and antiwar folk. Not enough for Boss Hog to put his PR guys on it and blow a non-story into the *Big Lie*. Sure, some vet or antiwar person will come on here and perpetuate the *Big Lie* but it is just... the *Big Lie*.

Yeah, as long as Boss Hog can keep to vet and antiwar peons fueding between themselves then no one's gonna look his fat butt in the eye and ask the tough questions, like how come it the folks from the working class and lower who get their butts shot up in these needless wars, Mr. Hog?

Yeah, it's divide and conquer.

Now, if anyone wants to continue fueling this fire, feel free, as fir me, I have said my piece on this thread and will not return to it.

The war is over.

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:46 PM

Long ago and far away. You all realize that ANON.GUEST revived this 2-year-old thread and is keeping it going entirely for his/her/its own purient interests, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:53 PM

artbrooks, there are, if my count is correct, currently three anon guests posting to this thread. It was refreshed when Mudcat members provided a link to it in another thread. It being refreshed was entirely relevant to a number of Veterans Day threads going on.

Before you play the "unmask the troll's agenda" game, you might want to get the facts straight first.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:54 PM

I have twisted nothing if people choose to ignore the reasons why so many take offence that so call peaceful people spit on the uniform and ultimately on the representative of their country perhaps they should reconsider what they class themselves as.

To say the war is over is redundant, the dog in the street knows that,so people should realise that and let the vets of any war remember and honor their friends in peace, without the spectre of glorying war being laid on them.

And if we all want peace lets think of those who brought it about the hard way, not too much to ask!

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:02 PM

Ireland, on the other hand, seems to be doing all he/she can to keep this thread refreshed. Near singlehandedly.

Odd thing for an Irish fellow to concern himself with.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:21 PM

I'll never apologise for showing how I feel about vets,your right though guest as you point the finger at me three are pointing right back at ya! along with all the others who have rumbled you.

Should never have taken your post seriously in the first place, here is a challenge for all the activists,I think when vets day comes around next year you will raise the same BS,g'wan prove me wrong and have some courage of your convictions, or show some real human compassion you falsely profess to have.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:34 PM

I correct myself. Odd thing for an Irish fellow to be foaming at the mouth about.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: mg
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

thanks Irish. I am sure many people know that the traveling wall went to Ireland last year (?) to honor those Irishmen, and I believe an Irish-born woman, who died, and many who served. I am not sure if they served as Irish citizens or as immigrants. Of course, some, and I have met one, and so have some of you, immigrated to Australia and got drafted. And even without direct involvement, there are certainly ties between Ireland and America...and people have family members, cousins, brothers etc. There was a wreath laying at the wall this year by an Irish veteran (at least I read there was) in honor of ???not sure..I think Nurse Donavan, one of the few women on the wall (many women who died were civilians and therefore not on the wall but are of course remembered).

I met a Mexican man who says he and many others enlisted from Mexico. I can't verify this other than to believe him. And of course Puerto Ricans enlisted in great numbers, and are in a different category of citizenship. I have heard it said there were whole villages in Puerto Rico where there were no young men at all. Not a one.

And the thing that shocked me so much when I first looked at the book of the dead was (1) how many officers there were and (2) how many Irish names there were. And you will heard it said that many many of the Nurse Corps at the time were Irish American young women. I can't verify this either..

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:15 PM

"I correct myself. Odd thing for an Irish fellow to be foaming at the mouth about"

Not that odd Guest my father lost his life there,he was in the British Army. You are really showing your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:22 PM

Approximtae number of US military who served in 10 years in Vietnam:

2,700,000

Approximate number of US military women who served: 5,900

Approximate number of US military men killed: 58,000

Number of US military women killed: 8

Estimated number of Vietnamese civilians killed: 2,000,000

Perspective is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:38 PM

The British occupation of Vietnam:

Even before the Japanese surrender, Communist led Vietminh forces had been taking control of the northern provinces of Vietnam. When the war finally ended after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Vietminh marched into Hanoi. The forces entered the city on 19 August to a tumultuous reception. Soon afterwards, on 2 September, the Communist leader, Ho Chi Minh, proclaimed Vietnamese independence from French rule in front of a crowd of half a million people. Ho's expectation was that the victorious Allies would accept this fait accompli and that the French would have to negotiate on Vietminh terms.

While the Vietminh were strong in the north, in Saigon and the south they faced a challenge from rival nationalist and socialist organisations, including a strong Trotskyist movement. They warned that independence could only be achieved through struggle and the Allies could not be trusted. The Vietminh established a provisional government in Saigon, the Committee of the South, but when the British arrived it had still not succeeded in gaining undisputed control of the city.

South Vietnam had been placed under British control at the Potsdam, conference of July 1945. The British commander, Lord Mountbatten, sent over 20,000 troops of the 20th Indian division under General Douglas Gracey to occupy Saigon. The first soldiers arrived on 6 September and increased to full strength over the following weeks. The Committee of the South attempted to open negotiations, but was ignored. As Gracey later boasted, 'I was welcomed on arrival by the Vietminh. I promptly kicked them out.' Instead he set about driving the nationalists off the streets, banning meetings and demonstrations, closing down the Vietnamese press, prohibiting Vietnamese from carrying weapons and restoring Japanese curfew regulations. On 23 September, with his connivance and under his protection, French troops staged a coup. They seized public buildings, including the town hall, and made widespread arrests. This provoked fierce resistance.

Saigon was paralysed by a general strike and fighting broke out in many parts of the city. Barricades were erected and poorly armed rebels attempted to fight it out with heavily armed British troops. For a while it looked as if the British were in danger of being cut off from reinforcements when Vietnamese forces nearly succeeded in overrunning Tan Son Nhut airfield. They were driven off. While this fighting continued the Vietminh took the opportunity to destroy the Vietnamese Trotskyist movement, executing its leaders.

At last the British secured control of the city but only after the liberal use of artillery, the deliberate burning of areas held by the rebels and the rearming and use of surrendered Japanese troops. According to Edmund Taylor, an American officer in Saigon at the time, the city reminded him 'of a town newly occupied by Franco's forces in the Spanish Civil War'.

After the city was cleared fighting continued on the outskirts and into the surrounding countryside. Here once again use was made of Japanese troops in an effort to keep down British casualties. The orders issued by Gracey instructed his troops to 'always use the maximum force available to ensure wiping out any hostiles... If one uses too much no harm is done'.

By the end of December--as large numbers of French troops began arriving--British withdrawal began. Gracey himself left at the end of January but the last British soldiers were killed in Vietnam in June 1946. Altogether 40 British and Indian troops were killed and over a hundred were wounded. Vietnamese casualties were officially 600 killed but unofficially three or four times higher.

Gracey had saved Vietnam for the French and thereby precipitated a war of national liberation that was to last another 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:44 PM

That is a canned summary of British involvement in Vietnam. I presume your father was killed during the occupation, Ireland? You have my sympathies for the loss of your father While your anger and vehemence seems very intense to me for one who lost a loved one so many years ago, doesn't mean you aren't entitled to expressing it here, if that is your wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:05 PM

Try 1967, you really do not understand do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:12 PM

I'm not aware of any British army troops being in Vietnam in 1967, Ireland, so perhaps you can explain to me how your father came to be killed there. I know there were Australian troops in Vietnam and hundreds of them were killed. But if you wish me to understand your perspective, you will have to enlighten me. It is impossible to understand something I am wholly ignorant of, which I am regarding British troop involvement in Vietnam.

If you wouldn't mind explaining the circumstances of British military involvement, you would likely also be educating others besides just me. I don't think most Americans are aware of the British military involvement in the US' war with Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:20 PM

So you really do not know,but you still comment.

I'll leave it up to the vets who know to educate you.

You really do not care what you say as long as you get your point across, I'm irish so why should it matter to me?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:37 PM

I also haven't been able to find any information online that substantiates your claim about British military involvement in the US war with Vietnam, Ireland. I'm a pretty fair online researcher, and I can find nothing about the British army in Vietnam at that time.

If it is understanding you are seeking, IMO, you should be willing to meet people half way. So I ask again please, put aside your anger, and share with us what you know, that we do not. That would truly further understanding Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:00 PM

Here is the problem guest,which guest am I answering? When did V.Nam go from having military advisors to having the US military there?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:09 PM

Are we counting Old Ironsides?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:20 PM

Just to help you out here Ireland, "Guest 1" who refreshed this thread says that there are three guests posting to it. While that may be true, the other guests have posted only once each and I think you can probably figure them out by reading the tone and phrasing. One was on the 12th and the other on the 13th I believe, but since then, the rest of the "Guests" are all Guest #1.......She stays quite busy.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: mg
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:32 PM

so much to understand, so little time. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:44 PM

That was intended as a joke, Ireland. Lighten up, please?

Trick question. US military advisors are US military. The first US POWs in Vietnam were captured in 1954.

So, Mad Jack Percival aside, the US helped fund France's attempt to retake Vietnam as a colony post WWII. The US sent it's first few advisors in 1950. After Ho Chi Minh defeats the French at Dien Bien Phu, the country is partitioned by international conference in 1954 (though the US wasn't a signatory). US takes over in 1956, installed Diem as premier and set up MAAG (Military Assistance and Advisory Group). By the time Kennedy takes over, there are around 700 "advisors" in Vietnam.

Diem's crackdown on Buddhists and nationalists begins, many South Vietnamese flock to join the ranks of the NLF, Diem falls when the US backed the generals/gangsters' coup. The generals/gangsters got overzealous, and started to overthrow one another, leading finally to nine coups, and tremendous political and economic instability. US military involvement goes from the 500 or so US military dispatched to Saigon in the mid-50s, to approximately 25,000 at the time of the 1964 election. By the end of '65, there will be almost 200,000.

Now, what does this have to do with your father being killed while in service to the British army in Vietnam in 1967?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:54 PM

Here is a link to the American Veterans Traveling Tribute website:

http://www.avtt.org

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:02 PM

There were many special forces units in V.Nam,my father was in one of those such units,it is a pity that someone who offers opinions really lacks the finite details.

Look up hearts and minds, it was a strategy that the BA used when they were in Malaya, the US later tried it in V.Nam.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:15 PM

What British Army special forces units were in Vietnam though Ireland? I can't find any information about them anywhere. Considering how well documented the US side of the war in Vietnam is, I find it nigh on impossible to believe, without you providing some references, online or offline. I promise you to look them up, and treat the information as fairly as I can.

I notice that the Traveling exhibit doesn't make any mention of the Vietnam Veterans Against War, and I don't see any discussion of the vets themselves who became anti-war activists in these threads.

I'd like to ask politely and respectfully, how the Mudcat vets feel about the VVAW's involvement in anti-war protests then and now, and how they feel about their fellow vets organizing against the current military buildup and war planning against Iraq this year on Veteran's Day? Both Veterans for Peace and Vietnam Veterans Against War participated in anti-war activities on Veteran's Day here in Minnesota, as a way of honoring vets.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:16 PM

The American Veterans Traveling Tribute was on show at Queens University,it in no way glorified the war and I fail to see how the Vets day at the real war does. Many and I mean many people men and women came away from the tribute with tears in their eyes, for me it was the sense of loss and the ending of potential in young lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:29 PM

My trips to the Wall in DC always effect me that way too, Ireland. As do trips to Ft. Snelling here in Minnesota.

I just find it curious that it doesn't include the VVAW, as there are many distinguished Vietnam vets among their ranks, including members of Congress.

So far, my vet contacts tell me they know of a reference to one Brit LRRP who was with the 101st at Cam Ranh, but they say he wasn't with the British Army. They say he had emigrated to the US and enlisted in the US Army.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:13 PM

Respectfully submitted to the friends we lost and those who still grieve. dwditty and Bick Mick I still remember.

Remembrance

He was getting old and paunchy
and his hair was falling fast,
And he sat around the Legion,
Telling stories of the past.

   Of a war that he once fought in
And the deeds that he had done,
In his exploits with his buddies;
They were heroes, every one.

    And 'tho sometimes to his neighbours
His tales became a joke,
   All his buddies listened quietly
For they knew where of he spoke.

But we'll hear his tales no longer,
For ol' Bob has passed away,
And the world's a little poorer
For a Soldier died today.

   He won't be mourned by many,
Just his children and his wife.
For he lived an ordinary,
Very quiet sort of life.

He held a job and raised a family,
   Going quietly on his way;
   And the world won't note his passing,
   'Tho a Soldier died today.

When politicians leave this earth,
   Their bodies lie in state,
While thousands note their passing,
   And proclaim that they were great.

Papers tell of their life stories
From the time that they were young
   But the passing of a Soldier
   Goes unnoticed, and unsung.

Is the greatest contribution
To the welfare of our land,
Some jerk who breaks his promise
And cons his fellow man?

   Or the ordinary fellow
Who in times of war and strife,
   Goes off to serve his country
And offers up his life?

The politician's stipend
And the style in which he lives,
   Are often disproportionate,
To the service that he gives.

While the ordinary Soldier,
Who offered up his all,
Is paid off with a medal
   And perhaps a pension, small.


    It's so easy to forget them,
   For it is so many times
   That our Bobs and Jims and Johnnys,
Went to battle, but we know,

It is not the politicians
   With their compromise and ploys,
Who won for us the freedom
That our country now enjoys.

Should you find yourself in danger,
With your enemies at hand,
Would you really want some cop-out,
With his ever waffling stand?

Or would you want a Soldier--
His home, his country, his kin,
Just a common Soldier,
Who would fight until the end.

He was just a common Soldier,
And his ranks are growing thin,
But his presence should remind us
We may need his like again.

For when countries are in conflict,
We find the Soldier's part
Is to clean up all the troubles
That the politicians start.

   If we cannot do him honor
While he's here to hear the praise,
Then at least let's give him homage
At the ending of his days.

Perhaps just a simple headline
In the paper that might say:

"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING,
FOR A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:17 PM

To end this the Aussies had their SAS there, the BA had theirs, I never met my father, well only as a babe in arms, you will not find ref to him as so and so SAS, as they are recorded under their original unit.

My father was in Malaya and Borneo, were they tried hearts and mind a tactic used later by the US in V.Nam. Look up the SAS site it gives info about Malaya and Borneo, I have a picture of him in the jungle in Borneo. I do not know where he was when he got killed in V.Nam,my mother always said I'll tell you later, now she has passed away and that's it.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 06:37 AM

Ireland,

veterane members of Mudcat have learned to avoid responding to that particular GUEST. It saves nerves and time.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:31 AM

I agree Wolfgang, that Remembrance poem is maudlin and trite almost beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:47 AM

Not really Guest #1.... It was by a different guest.....obviously. Fact!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Troll
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:31 AM

Bobert, I was not addressing you on the question of whether or not Viet Nam Vets were sipt on. I was speaking to GUEST, but since you seemed to see fit to respond for GUEST, I will address these remarks to you.
I don't know where you got the idea that I think that the spitting was widespread. I said that "some of us" were spit on. I guess that isn't exact enough but I don't have precise numbers to quote. I personally know of two men to whom it happened.
You also mentioned that "Boss Hog" (whoever that is) is fostering the "lie" and that when you stand up to that "lie" people who challenge you are, in effect, spitting on you.
Bobert, I haven't the faintest idea what "lie" you are talking about.
That's a nice piece of convoluted logic. You admit that it happened and then call it a lie.
You say that I do not represent the average vet (I never said I did, that's your invention) but you cheerfully claim that you know that if the spitting happened, it was done by a very small percentage of anti-war protesters.
Since I notice that you have said goodbye to this thread, I will PM this post to you .

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:55 AM

As a grassroots political activist, I can't even count the number of times I've been harrassed while in the line of duty, be it on a picket line, walking in a march, demonstrating, at rallies, etc.

In fact, it is so common for "decent Americans" to "spit on" dissenters, it never even gets discussed, except in passing among ourselves when it occurs.

My favorite epithet that gets hurled at us over and over again is "Why don't you go vote!" :)

To me, it is ludicrous in the extreme that people even have this discussion. Who ever said standing up for what you believe in was easy, and that you wouldn't get shit for doing it from your fellow citizens?

I'll start taking the claims made by some troublemakers that VV were spat upon seriously, just as soon as they stop making spurious claims about it, simply as a means to silence anti-war messages and political dissent.

Americans have many, many other people they enjoy spitting on nowadays, like Muslims and Arab Americans, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Troll
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:00 AM

Cite the spurious claims please. With links.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 11:55 AM

More from the spurious claims dept--that these same "anti-peace activist" vets are really anti-war. Right. Except the ones they fought in, and most the wars before that, and certainly this one coming up...

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:29 PM

Spaw is very perceptive, and right, I, Jaze was the guest who posted on the 12th and 13th. Not to be confontational, just to state how I've always felt.Lost my cookie and don't even bother with it anymore. I'm sure it was hurtful to returning soldiers to be spit upon, but as I said, there are assholes in every endeavor. But I do beleive the majority of protesters against the war were NOT against the individulal soldiers.So sad isn't it that the division that existed in this country over that war exists even now , in this? Jaze

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Beer
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:56 PM

Out of all the stories that have been told so far, Annamill, you have touched me. I am not a vet. Nor was I a protester. I just want to tell my story of that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Beer
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:45 PM

OOps, sorry but I just have to much to say and can not continue.
Beer

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM

ah, never mind

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From:
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 04:16 PM

I just finished reading David Grossman's "On Killing;" he refers to a book Bob Greene wrote. The columnist thought the spitting was legendary rather than factual. He solicited letters from vets, and over a thousand testomials letters persuaded him otherwise.

BTW, I highly recommend Grossman's book. Not for simpleminded partisans of either side. The core argument, and it's well defended, is that there's very little killer instinct (except for the 2% of us who are sociopaths) -- which is why nations take so much trouble training adolescents to overcome their innate reluctance to kill. The spitting, even if its incidence was overstated, nonetheless stands for the lack of re-integration ceremonies and rituals for returning 'Nam vets -- an element, in Grossman's view, of the complex that made their postwar experience much more traumantic than that of many earlier veterans who had experienced, qualitatively, quantitatively, more horror.

Adam

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Troll
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:12 PM

Thank you, Adam. I shall get the book.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:12 PM

At last, a perceptive post. Nicely done, Adam.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: mg
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:35 PM

People might not have heard yet but Linda V., nurse, author, has died. You can b.c. me for details. I am sure she went out fighting so I put her in this thread. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:21 PM

Thanks Adam, sounds a good read.

I like the word "simpleminded." In the many threads and discussions we have had here on those times, it has always been a kind of pleasure in sharing thoughts and ideas with those who were, in those days, on all sides of the issue. We have a broad cross section here and the only time things have ever broken down in communications of feelings is when the few simpleminded fools show up and try to show that there is somehow an easy answer.

I look forward to reading this other book because I think the lack re-integration was indeed a major factor. What caused that lack? Korea vets were never properly welcomed either probably because there was such little understanding by those at home of what that was was. It was also close to WWII so there at least was no antagonistic attitudes toward returning soldiers. VietNam, because of the media attention and the availability of seeing the war on your TV nightly, changed all of that. It also brought out many people in total opposition to the war. Being generationally removed from WWII made a difference as well.

What I think this brought out were the nutcases from both sides. Certainly there were those who spit on soldiers and just as certainly there were soldiers, returning from an emotional experience without any real debriefing/cool-off/integration time who were willing to think that everyone held the entire war against them personally. That's easy to see and for most of those vets........well, where's the end? For a few, every protester became the enemy and every look a spit.

Anyone on either "side" here who boasts of what they did and proudly say they would always do it again under any circumstance is simpleminded. Every one of us lives with what we did then and most of us have reconciled our actions but continue to question.......and talk.....and feel.......and hope that sometime it will be behind us forever. I fear that is a hope only fulfilled in the grave. We all played our parts, but were indeed pawns...and only pawns. I am proud of what many vets did; I am proud of what I did. I am often ashamed of what our leaders did.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 12:54 PM

Amen,Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:20 PM

Spaw's post demonstrates the difference between him (and others like him) who are real searchers, and the so called peace activist that I regularly go after on this forum. One of my very best friends during that time, went to Canada. One of my prized possessions is a picture on three young men standing together. All are dressed in the garb of the time, that being bell bottoms, sandals and t-shirts. Two of them have long hair, and beards. The third has a military haircut. My friends, Rick and Mack, were headed to Canada. I was headed off on my military sojourn. I always considered Mack to be very heroic. He left hearth and home and went away. When amnesty was offered Mack came home. But he didn't accept amnesty, rather he said he wanted to be tried. He said he was following his conscience when he left, and that he would rather go to prison than do anything that suggested he was wrong to do so. So much for being a coward. He was found guilty, but was given community service. I was proud of him then, and I am proud of him now. Spaw did time for his beliefs. And both of these men never vilify veterans as pawns of anyone, or any organizations. Neither of them stir up crap just because someone is asking others to thank a vet. In short, they are warriors in a cause. Real warriors, not phoney academics who preach from an ivory tower. They understand that many warriors are as committed to peace, probably more so than most, by virtue of their past.

Good job, my friend. I am proud to call you friend.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: mg
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:44 PM

I could never understand why abusing veterans became so entertwined in peace stuff. It seems to me like abusing fire fighters when you work in fire prevention. I'm all for fire prevention and I am all for disease prevention and I am all for war prevention but I sure want a backup plan. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 08:07 PM

I am a Marxist theorist, and live by the Groucho maxim "nothing is sacred." Not even Vietnam Vets.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: mg
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 08:53 PM

Hope Groucho didn't have any big surprise on judgement day. mg