BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 May 00 - 01:18 PM

The problem seems to me to be far more complicated. Since Napoleon inaugurated the "nation in arms" as a model, the mobilization of an entire country for war is standard. While the Geneva Conventions, etc., have tried to keep civilians separate, when you are fighting nation against nation, the capacity to fight is increasingly not the individual soldiers, but the basic capacity of the society. In World War II the argument was increasingly made that industrial cities were full of industrial workers who weren't civilians. And so it goes. We can remember in Vietnam all the metaphors about "drying up the enemy's swamp" and all that -- if everyone is part of the struggle, who is an innocent?

We find a version of this argument in the rationale of the IRA and other supposed "armies" that no one is innocent -- they are complicit, or obstacles, or whatever. So they are acceptable targets.

And then there is the morale issue, touched on above. Stop the support for the war by punishing everyone who thinks they can get away scot-free.

All this starts with Napoleon, was worked over by Sherman, and we are still in the middle of it. After all, we -- that is NATO countries and the Russians -- spent the last 50 years holding each other's citizens hostage at missilepoint.

I don't pretend to have an answer: but it is a really hard one.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 04 May 00 - 01:42 PM

I agree with most of what you're saying, McGrath. But let's remember that this self-centered aspect ("our casualties matter, 'enemy' casualties don't") isn't unique to America. Every country that has ever fought a war was either indifferent to 'enemy' casualties, or enthusiastic about them. That's war -- I don't like it any better than you do, but it's the nature of the beast. And it didn't start with Sherman, or Napoleon either -- the issue is as old as war itself (although the "rules of war" concept that exempts civilians from the harsh realities of war probably got a big boost in Victorian times).

I admit that there's a certain logic in all of this that I find compelling, in a horrific way. It isn't only the soldiers on the front lines that wage war -- it's the whole society that's backing them up, with its money, its industrial production, and its enthusiasm for the "cause". So why should everyone except the soldiers be exempt from the suffering that war causes? Remember, when Lyndon Johnson was escalating the war in Vietnam, he deliberately sought to insulate the country at large from the realities and costs of that war. It could be (has been) argued that this is a big part of the reason that war lasted so long -- the country was prosperous, and the small portion of the polulation that was suffering the most had no influence (in fact, for most of the war the average age of an American soldier was 19, and the voting age was 21). The result was that public opinion against the war took a long time to coalesce, while the killing dragged on.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 May 00 - 02:18 PM

annap: Thanks for the message. I think you were more generous than I would have been toward someone who said he killed babies and liked it. In college I nearly broke up with a girlfriend because she said draft resisters were cowards. Instead, she apologized, I forgave her, and we got married. Years later, we got divorced, over something that had nothing to do with Vietnam, but did have a lot to do with her lack of sincerity and commitment. Who knows, I might have avoided a lot of pain if I had followed my first impulse. You don't do yourself any favors by forming relationships with people whose values are much different from your own, or who have no values at all. I'm talking about REAL values, not just what kind of music you like.

The only time I ever got into a heated argument about Vietnam was with an old friend who totally surprised me by saying he thought Lieutenant Calley should not have been prosecuted. He was not saying they were prosecuting the wrong guy - he meant NO ONE should have been prosecuted. He said, "these things happen" in war and we should just accept them - I think he meant they should just be covered up. He was, technically speaking, a Vietnam veteran, but he spent his entire tour working in an office in Saigon. This incident changed my feelings toward this guy so much that I avoided seeing him for the next 3 years. (He lives in another city, so I wouldn't see him more than a couple of times a year anyway.) We have become friends again, sort of, but we haven't discussed war since then. If it weren't for the fact that his wife is also an old friend (she stayed out of the argument) I don't think I would bother with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 04 May 00 - 02:57 PM

One thing that people forget about the Viet Namese, is that the US did not start the war. After the withdrawl of France from Indo-China, Viet Nam was split into two, de facto, independant, sovereign states, North Viet Nam and South Viet Nam. The Communist Supported North Viet Nam instigated, with Chinese and Soviet funding, an insurgency campaign by the Viet Cong. US forces only became involved after requests from the then LEGITIMATE government of South Viet Nam. Unfortunatly, the US forces decided on TOTALLY the wrong tactics, with a gross overdependance on firepower. Had they studied the tactics used in the, admittedly smaller scale, Malayan Emergency, they may have picked up a few pointers on counter insurgency operations. Another error made was the use of combat units permanently based in VN, so that in any of these units there was a cross section of personel with different amounts of service done. The spread of the war into Cambodia was entirely due to the North Vietnamese Army, acting in support of the Viet Cong, taking over that strip of Cambodia bordering on the two Viet Nams. When informed of the commencement of Bombing in that strip, Sianhouk (sp?) is reported to have commented that, as far as he was aware, no Cambodians were being killed by the bombs. They had already been driven out by the NVA. The Vietnamese War was a nasty, long drawn out and brutish afair in which the wrong tactics were used. Few of the participants can claim any kudos. The Viet Cong were more brutal against their own countrymen than the US forces were. But, had the US forces not been there, S. Viet Nam would have been overwhealmed many years earlier and at much less cost to the Communists than it eventually was. Had this happened, would the sponsors of North Viet Nam's agression stopped there? I know this will offend some people. I do not apologise for that, but I do have the right to put this point of view across, no matter how unpopular it is. Sapper

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 May 00 - 03:48 PM

Hi Sapper:
Is that the same legit government of South Viet Nam, whose leader the US assasinated?
Just asking,
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 00 - 04:10 PM

Arguing about different tactics is essentially irrelevant. The essential thing is that America had no right to intervene in that way in a country on the far side of the world.

The war against the French ended in an agreement that should have meant a united North and South Vietnam, and that was broken, with American encouragement, by the South Vietnamn government. As a result of American intervention millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians and Laotians were killed, and tens of thousands of young Americans. And that's not counting the even greater numbers who had their lives wrecked. And no good whatever came of it.

That's all past history. But the important thing about history is to learn from it, so that you don't make the same mistakes again.

"I do have the right to put this point of view across, no matter how unpopular it is"

That's more or less what David Irving said in his recent court case...

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 04 May 00 - 04:13 PM

The truth is that at that time you were more likely to be abused, spat upon, beat, insulted and jailed for wearing long hair than for being a vet. Will anyone who lived through that time dispute this?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 May 00 - 04:21 PM

Yeah Bull, there was that too......

And Larry, keep in mind that it was the "constitutional" government of South VietNam. Personally, I find it amazing that I can read every word of their constitution without translation in the original English! Evidently an awful lot of South Vietnamese read English ....... I guess....huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 May 00 - 05:45 PM

I think that saying that the bombing of Cambodia (part of the euphemism for "the spreading of the war" being used here) was entirely the fault of the North Vietnamese Army makes perfect sense. I also believe that if I knock my feet together, the ruby slippers will take me back to Kansas.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: DougR
Date: 04 May 00 - 06:32 PM

So, McGrath of Harlow, I assume you feel the U.S. has no business sending troops to Bosnia either, es so? And following the same line of reasoning, American troops should never have been sent to Korea in the 1950s. In 1941, the Empire of Japan bombed Pear Harbor and that caused the U.S. to declare war on Japan. Did that justify our declaring war on Germany? Should American troops have been sent to Europe?

There were a lot of isolationists in the U.S. that would have been very happy had we sat out WW2. Don't think that would have been possible though myself.

Since you have such strong views about the SE Asia conflict, I just wondered how you feel about the other situations.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Fadac
Date: 04 May 00 - 08:09 PM

Right tatics, Wrong tatics. Who cares? It's too late to change it. Perhaps if the US & Britton had gone after Hitler in 1939, when Hitler went into Austria, that might have been the end of it. But no, nobody did a damn thing, so the war was on. Perhaps if we didn't go in VN, that war might have grown too, relighting Korea, Japan, etc. Then we would all be sitting on our big proud rear ends saying "Why didn't we get involved?" You can't win, no matter what you do, someone will find fault.

How do I as a vet feel about protesters? You will be surprised to hear, I'm 100% behind protestors right to protest. And I'll defend to the death the support of that right. Sometimes it's hard, but as far as I'm concerned everyone gets a say.

Those that decided to go to Canada. OK, if that is what one had to do, fine. However I feel that they should stay there. (Remember, Canada sent troops to VN too, as a peace keeping force. I think they were there about three months.)

-fadac

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 04 May 00 - 08:41 PM

This thread opens up a very sore wound. Yes, I served two years in Nam, spoke the language, and was as close to my Vietnamese friends as to my American ones. I returned with a bad case of what we called "Ho Chi Minh's revenge", which lasted two years, and a case of claustrophobia so bad that I passed out four times on the plane ride back. Most of what you read in the newspapers and saw on TV gave a false picture of the people and the GIs who were there. No, no one spit in my face when I returned, but I haven't any doubt that it did happen to some.

I am a Holy Cross alumnus also, and receiving the various alum mailings, I can tell you that the place has become thoroughly PC and leftward swooning. I can understand a Holy Cross war protester writing a book claiming that we are liars; people of that ilk have to justify themselves, and they do it by attacking others.

I have read so much anti-vet garbage, that I frankly doubt that I will read this. April 30th is always a very emotional day for me, and this year is the 25th anniversary of the day I first felt ashamed to be an American.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 00 - 09:09 PM

Three million dead Vietnamese. How many dead Cambodians? Laotians? And 55,000 dead American boys. All for a war game dreamt up by politicians and generals.

I can see why people who suffered or had people close to them who suffered want to feel that their suffering was somehow worthwhile, and that the suffering they collectively inflicted on the people in Indo-China was justified. I imagine there are people in France still who feel the same way about the earlier war in the same part oif the world. And people in Japan about the one before that, when was their turn to fight the Vietnamese - and the Americans.

There's only one thing worse than losing an unjust war. It's winning it - and at least America was spared that.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: dwditty
Date: 04 May 00 - 10:27 PM

As I recall, the war in Viet Nam was on for a long time before the Americans went in. While I hated the war while I was there and when I came home, I don't think it was the result of some spontaneous action.

DW

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: uncle bill
Date: 05 May 00 - 01:40 AM

wow! happy anniversay . Everybody's on this thread . The uniniformed, uniformed, well intentioned, politically correct , forgiving , forgived, guiltfull, guiltless, gutless, and a few that are right on. If you weren't born yet at that time, then everything you learned about it in high school and college was probably wrong. If you were there, you know no explanations are necessary. Fadac, right on. If you were against the war (as any sane person), and you went to jail for you belief, you are a hero. If you went to war and did your duty not for your country, or theirs, but for your fellow grunts , keeping each other alive, you are also a hero. If you ran off to Canada, as a deserter, or draft dodger, enjoy the winters you a**hole cowards. Veterans dont have to justify it or apologize. excuse me , I need a valium now.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 00 - 08:47 AM

If you think that your country is involved in an unjust war, you should refuse to help in that war. Insofar as you can, you should try to change things so that it stops doing it.

Some people chose to resist openly, and went to jail for refusing to be drafted, or refusin to obey orders. Some people went to jail for anti-war activism. Some deserted from the army. Some went underground. Some left the country.

Yes and there were some who were motivated not so much by a belief that the war was wrong, but by a wish not to be killed. And some of them found a way to ridde out the war wiothout being drafted, and are now riding high in politics - Republicans as well as Democrats.

But suggesting that people who chose to leave their country and their place in society because of what they believed in, because they thought their country was wrong, are all cowards to be sneered at is rubbish. It's no better than saying that people who went into the army were all bloodthirsty babykillers - and I don't know anyone who has ever said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 05 May 00 - 10:33 AM

There is a notion running through this post, and in our interpretation of the end of the war, that the US lost... to reiterate what I said in the BS Kent State thread, I reviewed some old propaganda from the era, and found two FORTUNE magazine advertisements, one from Eaton Yale and Towne Inc. referring to itself as a multinational corporation, doing business in the pacific rim, and that business is GREAT...another by CHEMICAL BANK, which starts WHEN YOU NEED SOMETHING MORE DIPLOMATIC THAN A GUNBOAT...

Watching the two parties of big business in the US voting MFN status for China, I say the war in Viet Nam accomplished just what it intended, so who were the winners/losers?

some of my friends , who went to Viet Nam, never reallized what they were fighting for. and some of my friends in the anti-war movement never knew what they were fighting against.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: annamill
Date: 05 May 00 - 11:21 AM

FADAC!! Welcome back! Things have changed a little and we've had some hard times, but we've seemed to have weathered it. Spend some time catching up. It's good to have you back. We've missed you.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: canoer
Date: 06 May 00 - 02:07 AM

Northfolk Al, why belittle the Vietnamese's struggle? They forced the U.S. government to decide to quit the war. David beat Goliath, and a lot of Davids around the world took inspiration from their accomplishment, and rightly so.

I certainly agree that the U.S. was later (much later) able, by other means, to impose its business goals on Vietnam. But they had to go another way, longer and slower and less immediately profitable. The war did not succeed. The postwar policies did.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 06 May 00 - 08:02 PM

Hi Fadac
I think we probably would have a lot to agree on, though we had differnt ways of dealing with the Viet Nam war. I agree that we should have gone after the nazis eariler. In fact, my crowd did. We American reds were called Pre Mature Anti Facists, and after the war, there was a return to denying the most basic constitutional rights to those who went to Spain to stick it to hitler while the US and England were sitting at the table with him. After the war, we returned to a pro-nazi, not a pro german stance, using the Gestapo to set up Interpole, our space program was a haven for nazis and well the list goes on, and the Criminocracy in Russia is the result. Now, before you flame me as a Stalinist, Stalin was a criminal, but there would have been a Gorbachev sooner if we had not been so agressive against ALL socialist states.
I only say this because, we have been looking at the Viet Nam war in a vacume. No, not every CO was a coward, I for one, went to Belfast in the worst years of that struggle as a photographer and was shot at there. Yup, I was scared shitless, cold jelly for knees, but I stayed and did my job.
That job, I hoped, was to help us all to realize NOT TO TRUST OUR GOVERNMENTS! Trust each other, I have a lot more in common with you Fadac, than the sons of bitches who stuck a gun in you hand or made some kid from Glascow point a gun at me.
Peaceful aniversery to all, and my hat is off to the US vets who, against their governments wishes have gone back to remove land mines. Thouse men are more than heros, as so many have been, they are saints and heros.
Best wishes
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: MarkS
Date: 06 May 00 - 09:31 PM

Peter T What exactly was the motovation for the bombing of Cambodia if not the reach the North Vietnamese troops hiding and staging behind a supposedly neutral border? Seems to me you need to drop the bombs where the enemy are. Mark S

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Troll
Date: 06 May 00 - 10:38 PM

Yes McGrath, I was called a baby killer in a college classroom. The young woman who made the accusation was not pleased when I said that she needed to be more specific. Did she mean by bombs, long range guns, napalm, rifle, knife, or with my bare hands? The professor could not regain controll of the class after that and had to dismiss for the day.Several of the young men in the class wanted to meet me outside to discuss the matter further but backed off when a couple of the older guys in the class took my part. Needless to say, that class was tense for the rest of the semester. I have a good friend who was a medic on a LRP team and he had similar problems.I also have friends who have never really come home.Sometimes they call and we talk but it only helps a little. For myself, I don't want a "well done" or anything else. Just leave me -and those like me- the HELL ALONE!

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 06 May 00 - 10:50 PM

Larry, We should sit down and have coffee and... I did not mean to belittle the fight that the vietcong waged, in my post...I would say that there is at least a theory, that the Tet offensive was a strategic change in plans from the vietcong to signal a willingness to seek some compromise to fighting the whole thing out to a victory...but that is not really what this thread is about. My point is simply, US corporate control was what the war was about. The same corporations are selling fried chicken in china, and are manufacturing shoes in vietnam. It is an irony, that to be "niked" in vietnam means to be hit with a shoe for not working hard enough. I am pretty sure that that is not what most people believed "we" were fighting for.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 00 - 08:15 AM

The thing is, there were baby killers, and that is not even controversial. Some of the blame for that inevitably spread out over some of those who weren't baby killers, and who did their best in terrible circumstances to do what they thought was right.

In the old South Africa there were decent cops and soldiers, and there were those who tortured and murdered. When the old regime fell, the new government set up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, with the idea being that people who had done evil things (on both sides) could tell about what had happened, and receive amnesty, and it would be possible to understand where the responsibility for various things really lay.

This never happened for people who'd been involved in the Vietnam war one way and another, and it's a pity. The poison needs to be cleaned out of any wound befire it can really heal. Maybe it's not too late. (It needs to happen in Ireland as well, and I believe one way or another it probably will.)

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 07 May 00 - 11:05 AM

Dear, northfolk/al cholger
We agree there, the myth that we won the war on the field and lost it in the press is quiet different than that which you present. The reality is we lost it in the field and won it in the movies. This is not to take away from the efforts of the US soldiers. They attempted a job that could not have been done, for many of the same reasons that my families regiment, the 35 foot got pasted in the American revolution (The Otway regiment). Just as Irish troops were fighting against their self interest in the colonies American troops were fighting against their interests in Viet Nam. They are not to blaime. Just as my Otway forefathers sent their troops to war ill equipted for the job, and to keep them from making the changes that should have been made at home, it is not isolationist to say that forign wars drop more bombs at home than on the enamy, to quote MLK.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST,BobAGhanouj
Date: 08 May 00 - 04:38 AM

only by people looking for a scapegoat. wars are fought by ordinary men who think they are doing what's best. they are started by chicken shits who know better

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 08 May 00 - 08:24 AM

McGrath, I'm glad you mentioned the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. I don't know whether anything along those lines would help us Americans with our lingering Vietnam baggage, particularly after all this time has gone by. But I am very impressed with this approach to healing deep wounds from a long period of conflict and injustice. I know it isn't perfect -- I've heard some criticisms from the people of South Africa, more or less saying that the voluntary nature of the thing means that people who should be part of it are still shielded from full disclosure, and that some of the participants just pay lip service to the process in order to get a free ride. But even an imperfect attempt is worth something, and I think South Africans will be better off for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: canoer
Date: 08 May 00 - 01:58 PM

Re the Truth & Rec Commission, a good friend was there working on the transition to "non-racial" government during the period in question. Basically the TRC was one more way of trying to persuade the dispossessed to settle for one slice of bread instead of the whole loaf. In her opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 09 May 00 - 08:53 AM

I don't know much about it, so maybe I just bought the hype. It sounded like a worthwhile try, though. We need to come up with some way to break the cycle of vengeance created by long periods of conflict, in so many parts of the world. Maybe this is a good blueprint to follow, maybe it's not. But I liked the idea, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST,mary g
Date: 09 May 00 - 11:05 PM

I think we could have done without the "babykillers" post here. I was an army officer. Put me on your list of "babykillers". I share in what anyone did, or what you think they did. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: lloyd64
Date: 09 May 00 - 11:34 PM

Sorry to say, yes.

Lloyd

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 May 00 - 11:49 PM

Mary G, I simply don't think you share in what the occasional insane person did (or ordered others to do)

Every country's military train their kids to be objective killers. I doubt if "sensitive" soldiers are really wanted in any army.

Emotionally damaged people can become privates, and rise through the ranks to become officers, generals, Presidents, Popes and Kings. They aren't in the majority but when they are given authority, everyone suffers.

The Peace Movement (of which I was a part) contained psychopaths, as dangerous as any in a uniform. When they rose to prominence, they easily counselled murder. Once again, they were not in the majority.

Sometimes the killing DOES stop. There are good people who have been taught to use violence, and good people who resist it. Sadly we don't find out about the "bad' ones til it's too late.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 10 May 00 - 07:45 AM

Dear Rick:
I had a criminal law professor at NYU, who once said, When you use a bamb, it is always a depraved heart killing.
The baby killing was not just crazies killing kids in retaliation for the damage of war, in fact, I agree with those who said that seldom happened. However, Naplam, landmines, all the many indescriminating ways we killed in Viet Nam killed kids, and I brand that the for of murder refered to as depraved heart killing. Whats more, I dont hold the individual soldier responcible, because it was this democratic nation that launched the killing. We as a nation were child killers, and for a rather piss poor reason.
I have to repete, that when the Vets returned, the real baby killers, the US government, THEY turned their backs on the vets, not the anti war movement. The government spit on the vets and the government policies killed the kids - theirs and ours.
In hopes of a democratic future, you old red pal...
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 05:02 PM

I'm refreshing this, as it seems germane to the concerns expressed by some Mudcatters in other Veteran's Day threads, that others are insensitively "attacking" vets on Veteran's Day.

Maybe this would make a good candidate for perma-threads or at least for linking with other Veteran's Day threads.

We need not keep covering the same ground over and over, but if people want to do it, maybe reviving this thread is the way to go for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM

Sapper 82 - I may not totally agree with you on the causes of the Viet-Nam conflict - and history will relate that Imperial Japnese Troops were rearmed under British ad later French control to "disarm" and control the Vietnemese Gurillers (sp) under Ho Chi Min and Giap (1945 onwards)

The Viet Cong and more importantly the NVLA, were no angels, and by any defnition terrorists.

I suspect tho if free elctions had been enforced in the mid 50's the history of that prt of Asia might have been totally different. But then History is so much 'What If ????'

Now before his mind went I was trying to record the experiences of my late father wth the objective of writing them up for publication. This was a man who went from Normandy to Kiel the hard way in 1944/5 30 corps support unit, 91st(Anti Tank)( Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) A mixture of 17pdr M10's, Towed 17pdrs, AA Crusaders, and White (USA) Halftracks armed with quad 0.5" Brownings.

Unit function - to back up Armour and Infantry with specialised and heavier weapons. ( A 17 pdr could kill a Panther or Tiger, the 6pdr or 75 mm guns of your standard Churchill or Sherman could not, and the concentrated fire of the 20mm Oerlicons of the Crusaders and the 0.5" of the half track could rip a dug in gun position to peices)

I have seen him reduced to tears twice. Once when mentioning what they found at Belson - his troop was one of the first units in. And secondly when he described catching a German Horse drawn artillery unit somewhere between the Rhine and Minden. He was given orders to destroy it. As he said, he didn't mind killing the Wehrmacht, they were out to kill him - but the horses were another matter. 20mm and 0.5" Browning rounds butcher horses, but not that quickly or cleanly.

Interestingly one of his Sargents deal with a group of gaurds at Belson in summery fashion. He told me he had a quick and nasty "cover up" to do - Shot whilst attempting to escape was his report. Fortunately none of his superiors was that inclined to enquire further, if they had, would that have made him a war criminal ???

No - all credit to all Veterans. And from this side of the pond mat all those scars heal, and quickly.

Gareth
Dulce et Dulchoram est,
Pro Patria Morie

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 08:04 PM

I don't think this is just about scars healing. It is about forgiveness needing to take place. Let us say theoretically, that every claim of/by vets being spat upon were true. And every claim by vets that they were treated like second class citizens is true. And let us say theoretically that the only segment of society treating vets in this manner, were anti-war activists.

A couple of theoretical questions: 1) for vets who feel they have not yet healed this emotional wound within themselves, what can society do to make it happen? 2) are vets willing and ready to forgive those who wounded them, so that they themselves can have closure on that part of their lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:51 PM

Okay, now here's one from a former member of the Illinois NATIONAL GUARD.

On May 13, 1968 my NG unit was called "for up to two years federal active duty." In September, 1968, the unit (including my brother, who was the supply clerk) was sent to Chu Lai, South Vietnam (I was eventually sent to Korea, where I served with the Seventh Infantry Division). The unit drove 5K gallon tankers full of things like JP-4 fuel up and down Highway 1 -- and yes, they were ambushed. Like myself, some of the guys were seperated and served in other units, like the 4th Inf. Div., the 9th Inf. Div, 1 Cav., etc. Of those activated, none were killed (although some were wounded). Yes, some of those who were assigned to the unit after it was in-country were killed in both heroic and decidedly non-heroic circumstances.

In August, 1969 we were returned "to State control." Reunited by in our hometown, we all eventually returned to civilian life.

I restarted college, which the callup had interrupted. My reception by the "Peace And Freedom Coalition" folks was, ah, mixed. And I can tell you from experience that flying in uniform from Sea-Tac airport to O'Hare whilst the remains of Woodstock dribbled into the West Coast was something I wouldn't want anyone to experience.

Someone in college DID spit on my brother because of his duty in VN. This was not a good idea and cost the spitter some teeth and considerable pain.

While my brother was in VN, my other brother, who was a flying spy for the Air Force, couldn't go. The second brother eventually spent 18 months in SEA; one of the things he did was fly airborne intelligence for the Son Thuy raid.

One person said thanks. I'm still married to her.

The scars are still often tender, but I don't hate anyone. As was said before, the grunts (and I was light weapons infantry) were the people most against the war -- for them, it was personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:07 PM

What always puzzled me was that everyone I knew who was against the war was against the System that Sent young men to war NOT the young men themselves. Most of them went against their will(the draft). What people were protesting against was not the soldiers but the system. That has been twisted around with stories like the "spitting" incidents. It is possible it happened, but I doubt it was the norm by any means. My heart goes out (and always did) to the young guys who had to endure those circumstances. And God help us, here we go again.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:23 PM

Now, I haven't read this thread but so I'm just gonna wade into it blindly.

First, I graduated from Massanutten Military Academy in 1965 and any graduate with three years of MST (Military Science Training) could go right to Nam as a 2nd Lt. and, out of my graduating class many did. Out of the little more than a hundred of my friends at Massanutten, *8* died in Nam. That's a lot! Throw in one cousin and another who stepped on a mine and almost died and lost a leg and my best friend in grade school, I think I can say I know the horrors of VN.

Now, back in the 60's I was promotin' a rock club in Richmond, Va. and we let it be known to our brothers at Ft Lee, in Petersburg, that they were not only welcome but we let 'em in free. And we we're alone. The struggle was not between those of us who were in the streets tryin' to stop the VN War and our brothers who were caught up in Boss Hog's little game but with Boss Hog.

Now this scared the Hell out of Boss Hog, just as it scares Boss Hog today but in the words of the phophet: Tough Sh*t! Yeah, there will be those true believers who will buy into your trumped up lies that there is a division between the folks fighting in the streets of Bagdad and Washington, D.C. but there *AIN'T*!

That dog won't hunt!

Sure, there are folks around here, like Claymore, who are conservative Repubs who will step to the plate and say that, since I didn't shoot at Vietnamese people, that I don't have a right to say anything.

Bullsh*t. That's partisan, "true believer" politics and nothin' more, thank you.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 11:43 PM

What are you saying guest these people are lying?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 12:32 AM

I may have to pick up this book. The link above to the author's comments show a well-thought out discourse on how modern myth can shape our impressions of reality.

Since I spent the end of the war in diapers, I found his remarks about Hollywood having shaped the images of war particularly appropriate. I have no real first-hand experience with the effects of the war. I was brought up with the idea that the vets were universally hated and reviled, and even though I've never seen specific proof or talked to a single person who felt so, I honestly have never questioned it. (The Vietnamese involved, of course, were never discussed.) And I guess my mental image of a Vietnam vet really *is* Forrest Gump and the crazy pilot in Independance Day, even if logically I understand that these are just stereotypes.

I think the wide range of experiences recounted above show that vets did not all have the same homecoming experience and were not universally reviled... and yet the spitting image is so powerful, it lingers.

Then again, the only place I've ever seen someone spit on another person is in a movie.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 05:34 AM

Yes G*dDamnit some of us were spit on. Thank you SO much GUEST for allowing that it "may" have happened. That just makes everything ok.
Bobert, you have the right, under the Constitution, to say anything you like. But if you weren't in Viet Nam, THEN YOU DON'T KNOW. PERIOD.
It doesn't matter how many friends you lost or how politically aware you were or how hard you worked to end the war. You cannot begin to understand so don't even try. Stick to what you KNOW.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 07:42 AM

Hi Troll:
Yes and no.... I was speaking with a fellow who landed at Normandy the other day, and found something interesting... he could not watch films about WWII, but could watch other war films. My friend Thomas who was a prisoner on the Burma Railway cannot watch Bridge on the River Kwai (though he thinks it is a stupid movie). I cannot watch films about the North of Ireland... tried watching Bloody Sunday and wept uncontrollably through it... because no other experience is more intense than one's personal view of war. But there is the emotional knowledge and then there is the knowledge that all citizens should acquire in a democracy, which is a familiarity with the facts behind our wars so we can make an informed decision and that needs some cross talk with those of us who have personal and emotional experience of war.
Some may have been spit on by anti war folds ... from my personal experience the anti war movement had huge numbers of vets in it, members of Viet Nam Veterans Against the War, an organisation whose members I stay in touch with to this day, and who do draft counseling at the start of wars that may see a draft. But, the real spiting on the vets came from a government which waged war than dropped the wounded vets, wounded in body or mind, onto the streets of America, into the jails of America, into neglect. They are the real MIAs, while Sylvester Stallone (who taught in a Swiss girl's school during the war) promotes the myth that the VC are keeping American slaves in VN, causing the majority to overlook the MIA on their doorstep while imagining slave labour camps over there.
Peace and healing friend
Hope to see ya in New York again soon
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 08:18 AM

Troll:

I ain't buy that "wuff'wuff" stuff either. I think I represent pretty well the thoughts of those who worked tirelessly to end the war in Vietnam and as such have *my duty* as a memeber of the accused (*spitters*) to stand up here and confront a *lie* that has been allowed to take form and settle in as a general statement of truth.

Sure some folks got spit on. Heck, the spitting went both ways. Its still here, where when I stand up to the lie, you figurately *spit* on me in front of the entire Mudcat kindom. But you troll, do not represent the Vietnam vet in general but just that small minority of vets who have bought into big *spit lie*. I, on the other hand, being a memebr of the anit-war movement know that it would have been a very small nmber within that held any service man accountable for the decisions made by 4 presidents (5, if you include Ike)

There are unstable folks everywhere who do not represent the majoirty and for which the majority should not be defined because of a few folks bad behavior.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 08:28 AM

No, Ireland, I'm not saying these people are lying-there are gonna be assholes in every endeavor. But you can't really beleive that everyone who was against the war was like that, can you? I think that what gets lost in all this is that those against the war were really on the soldiers side. ( at least I was)It was the system that sent young men to die rather than find a more intelligent way to solve problems. I realize that sometimes war is necessary, but sometimes it has to be questioned also.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 10:57 AM

Thank you, GUEST, you said it better than I did.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:04 AM

Interesting - Just a fact from me on the whole subject.

Forgiveness is nothing more than giving up hope that yesterday is going to change.

Long as I don't forgive I give the power of my life to the one I refuse to forgive. Doesn't mean I'll forget. I think I need to remember. I'm getting too old and too tired to stay angry for all that long. I do get twisted up momentarily at those that verbally spit on veterans in general and denigrate their service. Like someone above said - we all served in one manner or another.

Hoping you all are having a good day -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:22 AM

Steve:

Amen, brother, from the bottom of my heart.

And other than this bad pickin' thumb, this ol' hillbilly is havin' a glorious day. The maples are beutiful. The Iragis have accepted in principle the UN resolution. And it looks like I'm gonna win an ebay bid for a recorder to relace my old broken one. Life is good.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 12:57 PM

Guest and Bobert, did the spitting happen, yes it did you both acknowledge that. Was it done in the name of anti war protesters.

Bobert you admitted that there were those who did spit, it went both ways, does that make it right, does that mean we negate the feelings of those who were spat on because some one spat back? You have just justified the actions of some of the anti war activists who think it is right to take such actions. You have defended them by saying what you said,that implicates all activists.

Human nature being what it is, with the strong sense of loyalty and protection people have for each other, is it too hard to understand how people feel when one person spits on one vet. Bobert spit on anyone in uniform you may just spit on the whole Army.

With the incidents posted, I ask if that person had the opportunity to spit on all the military would they have done it? That's were the insults lie it is the principle of the thing your attacking what they stand for, your not much of a soldier if you do not have pride for your uniform and what it stands for.

Spit on the American flag and you've spat on every American not too hard a concept to understand and apply to the above.

Guest I have haven't a lot of time for you, Big Mick has shown you for what you are, I think it's a shame that others encourage you and your disengenuous rants.

I totally agree with the sentiments of anti war, no one should go to war, the problem I have is with the tactics that some use and when they decide to use them.

One thing though Bobert as you say you worked tirelessly to end the V.Nam war what in heavens name did you think those poor buggers who were in V.Nam doing. These people have my respect and I believe they are very special people, as they not only take the good times of being an American they also took the bad. Is that not what it is about the rough with the smooth?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:22 PM

And you hail from where again in Ireland, Mr. "Ireland"?