BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?

Subject: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 May 00 - 01:23 PM

Probably everyone has heard the story of returning Vietnam veterans being spat upon by antiwar protesters. Now there is a book by Jerry Lembcke called "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam" whose thesis is that alleged spitting NEVER HAPPENED.

I found the following information at amazon.com:

"No, Holy Cross College sociology professor Lembcke can't prove a negative, but he makes a strong case that tales of antiwar activists spitting at returning vets are myth. Lembcke, a Nam vet who was active in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, opens with Persian Gulf War politicians' use of 'the spitting image' and then traces Nixon and Agnew's agitated response to antiwar activism by GIs and veterans. He notes that contemporary media, government, and polling data show no evidence of antiwar spitting incidents; the few events reported had supporters of the war targeting opponents. But later studies reported hostility toward veterans; 'the spitting image' epitomized that narrative. Similar images were common in post-World War I Germany and France after Indochina; Lembcke suggests the Nixon administration cultivated this notion of betrayal because it stigmatized both the antiwar movement and veterans against the war. With development of a new psychiatric diagnosis, post-traumatic stress disorder, a good vet/bad vet split was complete, and Hollywood films shifted attention from the war itself to its GI victims." --Mary Carroll Booklist August 19, 1998

"The image is ingrained: A Vietnam veteran, arriving home from the war, gets off a plane only to be greeted by an angry mob of antiwar protesters yelling, 'Murderer!' and 'Baby killer!' Then out of the crowd comes someone who spits in the veteran's face. The only problem, according to Jerry Lembcke, is that no such incident ever has been documented. It is instead, says Lembcke, a kind of urban myth that reflects our lingering national confusion over the war." --Los Angeles Times

"The myth of the spat-upon veteran is not only bad history, but it has been instrumental in selling the American public on bad policy." --Maurice Isserman, Chicago Tribune

"The best history I have seen on the impact of the war on Americans, both then and now." --David Dellinger

"Lembcke builds a compelling case against collective memory by demonstrating that remembrances of Vietnam were almost at direct odds with circumstantial evidence." --San Francisco Chronicle

One of the most resilient images of the Vietnam era is that of the anti-war protester - often a woman - spitting on the uniformed veteran just off the plane. The lingering potency of this icon was evident during the Gulf War, when war supporters invoked it to discredit their opposition.

In this startling book, Jerry Lembcke demonstrates that not a single incident of this sort has been convincingly documented. Rather, the anti-war Left saw in veterans a natural ally, and the relationship between anti-war forces and most veterans was defined by mutual support. Indeed one soldier wrote angrily to Vice President Spiro Agnew that the only Americans who seemed concerned about the soldier's welfare were the anti-war activists.

While the veterans were sometimes made to feel uncomfortable about their service, this sense of unease was, Lembcke argues, more often rooted in the political practices of the Right. Tracing a range of conflicts in the twentieth century, the book illustrates how regimes engaged in unpopular conflicts often vilify their domestic opponents for "stabbing the boys in the back."

Concluding with an account of the powerful role played by Hollywood in cementing the myth of the betrayed veteran through such films as Coming Home, Taxi Driver, and Rambo, Jerry Lembcke's book stands as one of the most important, original, and controversial works of cultural history in recent years.

About the Author

Jerry Lembcke is Associate Professor of Sociology at Holy Cross College. In 1969 he was a Chaplain's Assistant assigned to the 41st Artillery Group in Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: MMario
Date: 02 May 00 - 01:30 PM

Having known several vets who claim they were spat on, I choose to believe the vets. the incidents I have heard about were usually semi-private, one under family circumstances, several in bars. This was a painful era for almost everyone involved, in one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 00 - 01:47 PM

I was working on a pacifist paper in England during the war, so my experience was second-hand, but in all the time I spent with anti-war people, including a lot of Americans, I never came across any antagonism to ordinary American servicemen.

Even the Nazi stuff, like My Lai, was generally seen as primarily the responsibility of the politicians and those who backed them, who put inadequate people into situations where they were twisted into something less than human. People who would otherwise have quite likely lead ordinary inoffensive lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 02 May 00 - 01:48 PM

Since the book very carefully confines itself to public incidents involving just returned veterans within a few minutes of getting off the airplanes that brought them home, MMario's examples (which I am inclined provisionally to accept) arent' strictly counterexamples to Lembke's thesis.

The Vietnam veterans I have known seemed mostly well-adjusted and easy-going. The only explicit complaint I ever heard relating to someone's tour of duty was a gripe about the M-16's tendency to jam. Nevertheless my guess is that there is some truth to the image of the let-down vet. Was every returning GI made to feel welcome at the local American Legion post or other Veterans' clubs ? Was every GI who subsequently went to college made to feel welcome by the students and faculty at the college of his choice ? But the people who did the letting-down weren't necessarily those who had opposed the war. War supporters, sore at the GI's for "losing" might just as easily have been deliberately or thoughtlessly unkind. (Query: did some veterans of Korea feel as though they were not welcomed home as warmly as their older brothers had been from WWII ? If so, was it partly because the home-front was sore at them because they didn't achieve a clear-cut victory ?)

T.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 May 00 - 01:53 PM

I witnessed people spitting in front of, or in sight of returning Vietnam Veterans; and generally calling out some pretty nasty epithets. Yours,(got in trouble for smacking a few who did it to my friends) Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: SDShad
Date: 02 May 00 - 02:19 PM

Well, I've no knowledge of the spitting issue, but I do know that there was, into the 1980s, a deep-seated hostility to anyone in a military uniform among at least some people in "the movement." I know it'd be hard to believe of me now, with my beard and braid down to *here*, but in my callow days of youth I was, for 2 years, an Air Force ROTC cadet at the University of Minnesota. We would wear our uniforms one day a week, and one particular Thursday, as I was walking into a classroom building, someone whose look certainly fit the lefty/antiwar profile glared at me angrily through his John Lennon specs and shouted, and I mean SHOUTED, "Down with war! Down with militarism! Down with wasting our people's money!"

I was too stunned to react, and wished later that I had tried to engage him in conversation, and let him know that my politics weren't all that far away from his, and explain my reasons for rejecting warmongering, but not the entire idea of the military. An opportunity forever lost.

The point of my rambling post being: foaming-at-the-mouth or spitting rage at anyone in a US military uniform may have possessed only a tiny minority of antiwar folks, but it did exist, even 9 years after the war ended.

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 May 00 - 02:24 PM

For a year I lived and worked in a house in Toronto that became a "safe" or "halfway" house for draft resistors. We worked in conjunction with an anti-war group in Buffalo (a border town) who would let us know when someone was "crossing". A lot of the kids who stayed with us on Admiral Rd. were terribly scared and definitely filled with emotional conflicts. Many had grown up in the "my country right or wrong" environment, and although they knew the "war" had more to do with commercial interests than "saving anybody" they still felt that being American meant you were "expected to die for your country" even if your leaders appeared to be insane.

One night we had an amazing incident happen. A full fledged Marine showed up at our door.(dress uniform and everything). You can imagine the chaos, and panic! Some thought that Canada had signed an extradition treaty with the US, and were madly writing letters to their folks..some were even praying.

What had happened was that the "Marine" in question (Kelly) had been to Nam, was promoted to Corporal, had killed (he said) and was returning to the States on a troop ship. An officer (apparently drunk) made some insulting remark, and Kelly slugged him. The officer hit his head on something and almost died. Kelly was imprisoned immediately on returning to the States (Camp Lejeune...I think..this is a long time ago) and was told that he would be serving 7 years in prison when found guilty. Now here's the odd part (to me anyway) Everyday they'd let him out of the stockade to drive a certain kind of large truck (he was the only one who had the proper licence on the base) and everynight he'd return and go back into his cell.

One day he just drove the truck out of the base and kept driving. He must have gotten some information from the extensive "underground railroad" at the time, 'cause he drove across the border at a secret place, and 5 hours later ended up at our door.

In the 3 or 4 months that Kelly spent with us, it was fascinating to watch the interaction between the resistors and the guy who joined up Gung Ho. Sitting around at night, everyone telling their stories was an amazing part of my education. Especialy knowing that by an accident of birth (50 miles north of the American border) I would never have to make that awful decision that so many Americans made. I didn't feel righteous...just very lucky.

Over the years I've heard stories from both vets and resistors about being "spat on". I've never witnessed anything in which each side's passions were so high.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Mudjack
Date: 02 May 00 - 02:36 PM

I never seen or heard anyone say that they personally got spat upon, they always had heard about it and thought it to be true. I can guarantee you that most American GI's got crapped on pretty heavely. LBJ, Robert McNamara signed the orders and put our young warriors at risk, not the Peace demonstrators. My God that was an ugly time in our history.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Irish Rover
Date: 02 May 00 - 03:10 PM

I came home from Nam on leave after three years there. my father wanted me to come to lunch with some of his friends and him. I said ok but he wanted me to wear my uniform and medals.I said no, it's 1969 and it's a hot issue. he asked if I was afraid I said no, I just don't need any trouble. the up shot is I wore my uniform, I'm walking down michigan ave.(Chicago) a man walked up to me out of the blue, and spit on my medals. I lost it and beat him severly. to cops came up and wanted to know what was going on. I answered them in my best N.Irish brogue. they also being from the old sod took him off to jail. I had lunch with the boys, but I'll never forget it. turns out he was a lawyer and they held him without bail for a couple of days. I had an other incident in San Fransisco but I expected it there and let it go. I don't think any one was more anit-war than the grunts fighting it, but we thought it was our responsibility as it says in the constitution.(I was a newly sworn citizen)I did not understand the tratorus activity here (by the polititions and stuidents)

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Irish Rover
Date: 02 May 00 - 03:18 PM

Trust me, I was spat upon a couple of times myself. not just here but also in england. it was as you say a ugly time. No one is more anti-war than the grunts out there fighting it. but we thought we were doing what we were required to do under the constitution (I had just become a citizen) and did my duty. I am still rather bitter about the treatment I recieved upon my return. The veterans money in Ill. had been used up giving loans to stuidents to buy houses. p.s. I spent 10 years in S.E.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 02 May 00 - 03:38 PM

My experiences are similar to some, and I am surprized at the reponses that differ from mine. During the late sixties, and to the present, I have been involved, one way or another in working class politics. I was actively opposed to the Viet Nam war, but never against the folks who were forced to serve...they were friends and neighbors, and when they came home, more often than not, they would "explain" to my detractors that the war was being fought to make southeast asia safe for big business. (we didn't call it corporate america, back then). I also worked closely with members of VVAW. I remember with clarity the young vets, who looked like hippies in camo...marching together in a small town 4th of July parade, separate from the VFW...because the VFW and American Legion wouldn't accept them. Many brought huge problems home with them, including drugs and diseases that many still feel are chemical exposure related. Many brought memories of things that they would only talk about, after a long night of drinking. Some were frightening to be around because they had not really readjusted to a life outside of their identity as soldiers. But, never did I witness anyone spitting on these guys. What I did witness is young men returning to high unemployment, an economy that some had a three or four year headstart in, because they did not have to go...and in some ways,I guess, that could be called "spitting".

I saw a lot of political posturing about these guys who were spit on. It was almost like the key to the code that drove our present politics so much further to the right than it had ever been. The same leaders who sent people to kill and die, used that lie to elect the bush's reagans, the armys, delays, etc....

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 May 00 - 03:53 PM

A few years ago I was in a Vietnamese Buddhist Temple in Toronto, and in the middle of the service a fight broke out between one man who (I later found out) had been in Ho Chih Minh's army and a "boat person" who had been with the American Strategic Services office in Saigon. About seven seconds after the fight broke out, ten people crowded around me and begged me to leave the temple, as this was a Vietnamese problem. I was virtually dragged out of the temple, and within a few moments the families of the two men came out with each of the men, all of them crying and carrying on. They saw me on the sidewalk, and covered up their faces in shame, and rushed off into the morning. I received a written apology from the head of the temple 3 days later. For nothing, just because I had been there.

Could somebody sometime say a few words about the million dead Vietnamese?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 May 00 - 04:44 PM

Nicely spoken al and peter.........

It is no secret around here that I didn't serve in VietNam. It is equally not a secret that I won't sing songs about diviseness and ones that affix blame. That said..........

Why the hell would anyone write this book? I'm sure that the narrow confines of his "documentation" these incidents did not take place. Now the fact that several people on this thread including myself witnessed them would make me believe that either this guy did no research, has ridiculous criteria for "proof" of these events (names,dates,times,witnesses,film...probably needs a urine sample too), or has some other agenda. And what could that be? Notoriety? The urge to stir things up? Enjoys revisionist history ala the Holocaust? Wants to make a buck with a controversial best-seller? I don't know.....I'd like to read it before I pass judgement.

But the fact of the treatment of returning vets is just that...a fact.

The Movement was filled with people of all stripes. The nutcases tended to make headlines and made it difficult for some of us who viewed it as a struggle to end those things that only divided us.........war, racism, poverty...............I witnessed abusive treatment of soldiers and police and I saw the same sometimes in return. Like other signal events in a lifetime, I too remember exactly where I was when the score went to National Guard-4, Student-0.

For thirty years we have tried to heal. What about a book that brings us together and helps us all understand what each of us did, why we did it, and that there is honor and shame, just plain folks, on all sides? This book seems to say to me that in these past years we have not healed yet. Perhaps we never will be........Or perhaps we won't make it collectively, but on an individual, one on one basis, it has happened, and we have come to understand those times and our parts in them.

Geeziz................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 02 May 00 - 05:06 PM

Dear Brothers and Sisters:
I was involved in the anti war protests, and was a CO during the last year of the draft. If thier were insidents of spiting by those opposed to the war, it was indvidual -isolated and not condoned by those who were organised against the war, who were, afterall, concerned that our brothers not be sacrificed in a polical war, not a war of liberation or survival. In fact many of our comrads in the anti war movement had been to Viet Nam, and were in the Veit Nam Veterins Against the War.
On the other hand, the same government who sent young Americans to Viet Nam, spit on them quiet literally when they retunred, and count the many Vets on the streets of New York, actualy now in jail in New York because under our present Mayor, being homeless is a crime, well, the US government continues to spit on Vets and one can change the P to an H and it is also true. All the while, the government fosters the myth that, 1. the anti war movement was responcible for the horrible treatment of veit nam vets, though the same has happened to vets from every war thereafter, now we are seeing Gulf war vets, sick and on the streets, and 2. the most obscene myth of all, that of missing in action, and pows held in Veit nam. GET REAL, the MIAs are on the streets of Amercian cities and the POWs are in OUR jails.
I wish people in this bloody country would take the God damn blinders off!
Excuse the anger, as you all know it is not my usual... well listen, Vets, even if you still suport the war, I have nothing but a handshake and a beer for you all, we all had a rotten youth over that war and lost a whole damn lot.
To any who got spit at, there are always assholes on both sides of any issues, and I would hit the son of a bitch who spit at you guys as well.
No more wars, eh?
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 00 - 05:17 PM

This may be off the topic but it always bugged me that for many years whenever the network cop shows needed a unbalanced nutcase for a character it was often the Viet Nam vet that they used. I thought it was a real slap in the face.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: DougR
Date: 02 May 00 - 05:49 PM

Those were very sad times in America. I worked in Washington D. C. when he anti-war protestors attempted to disrupt the government. I walked from Georgetown to our offices (National Endowment for the Arts) on "K" street one morning, and witnessed young Americans waving Viet Cong flags, and burning the American flag on the streets of Georgetown. Cars were turned over and set afire, young people rented Hertz trucks, and drove down the streets sweeping broken glass into the streets. Attempts were made to torch government buildings. Over 10,000 people were arrested and held in John F. Kennedy Stadium until things settled down. Frankly, as I walked the two or three miles through the rioting crowds of young people, I wouldn't have wanted to be dressed in a military uniform.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 May 00 - 07:11 PM

I can only wonder how someone who DID go over there to fight for their Govt. reacts to the Happy commercialism and tourist industry that seems to flourish these days. It wouldn't apply to me as I have never trusted a Government, or a political leader who's ambition drove them beyond city councillor...but I'll bet their anger can never be told. Hippies weren't responsible for this tragedy. Business was.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 May 00 - 08:49 PM

Works like this do not help the healing process. It matters little if individual cases of this happening are not documented. Those who were around at that sad time will know the strength of feelings and will not doubt the 'myth'. If it is a 'myth? I don't doubt the personal accounts I have read in this thread.

That WAS the feeling. However it came into being, it was a truth. Documents will not make it truer. Lack of documents will not make it untrue. The book will not change that feeling or make it untrue. Nit-Picking books like these will sell and their 'sensational' revelations will appear in the media. They serve little good purpose, other than to raise the profile of the author.

In the recent libel trail, in London of David Irving (that he lost), one of his claims was/is, that there was no document that demonstrated that Hitler directly ordered the holocaust.

No one is suggesting that Hitler was not in total charge of his country at that time, or that the events (generally) happened. Do we need such a document to exist to make the events truer?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: dwditty
Date: 02 May 00 - 11:46 PM

Well folks, unless you were there you have no idea. I returned on the day that Time/Newsweek/etc released the My Lai pictures. I left Seattle WA to fly back to Boston, through NY. We had to fly in uniform or pay full fare. No I wasn't spit on, but I certainly felt like it. Ironically, the reality of My Lai was only on the news stands. While there was plenty of shit to go around, for most of us, there were no My Lai's. I still wear the scars from that year, both inside and out, but with the anger pretty much dissipated, it is easier. I also think this book serves no purpose - or at least no good purpose. I joined those of you who fought against the war when I returned - some pretty amazing stories there, too. (Yes DougR, I spent the next year in Washington - New Mob, etc. - so I know what you mean.
What I want to say, though, is that I appreciate all of you (both on the Mudcat and everywhere else) who have come to accept those of us who were there. It means so much, and it is through my tears that I say thank you.

DW

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: DougR
Date: 03 May 00 - 12:02 AM

No, dwditty, it is WE who should thank you!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: bbelle
Date: 03 May 00 - 12:33 AM

Besides losing my fiance' to the war ... I had long term relationships with a POW and a Medivac pilot who did two tours ... they were not well-adjusted individuals ... moonchild

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 May 00 - 01:15 AM

The twentyfifth anniversary of the American evacuation from Saigon was last Sunday and I was struck both by how long it had been since then, and how long the war lasted. I suppose we will be the last American generation who was considered expendable by their country. The Gulf War was a sign of how war will be fought in the future: quickly, with massive mechanized fire power, and reported by a controlled media. Never again will Americans be sent into enemy territory to draw fire so that the enemy can be engaged, and the body count tallied. Never again will America engage in war without the government first presenting a solid case for taking up arms. Massive casualties are no longer acceptable. Perhaps we have grown beyond that.

We who were weaned on tales of our fathers' bravery were asked to fight a twilight battle, against an unclear foe, in a struggle whose goals were uncertain. Those of us who stayed shared something with those who went: We all lived with the Vietnam War. And all of us, soldier and demonstrator alike, owe something to those who died there. That we join in an attempt to understand what happened and why it happened, and that we forgive each other and ourselves, is the very least we can do. At our best, we will help our country go forward on a path that is not dictated by fear, but by wisdom. And let us be careful in our use of the great power at our disposal so that, as we do not sacrifice the youth of our country, neither do we sacrifice the lives of our enemies without overwhelming cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: canoer
Date: 03 May 00 - 02:34 AM

About the book review, I gather that the writer has found little "documentation" and so uses vast generalizations about other times, other places, other events, to "prove" his case. I, for one, do not credit such an approach.

I thought there were so many different views and theories and ways of acting, in those days, that no quickie characterization can ever be accurate.

My appreciation to everyone who shared their experiences here, contributing their part of the elephant. It was a hellish time. It was also one of this country's most educational eras, politically, since WWII.That's one good and lasting thing we can say about it.
--Larry C.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: canoer
Date: 03 May 00 - 04:08 AM

Near the end of the war, I saw published somewhere a map of the south of Vietnam's shoreline. Oil exploration rights were drawn on that map. Every single inch of shoreline was leased to one oil company or another!

I thought that was a quick and dirty example about why the war went on.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 00 - 05:41 AM

A sad time and a hellish time, yes. But that's only part of the story. It was a time when a war by a strong country against a weak country was resisted by a whole swathe of people, who at great cost to themselves and to the country, halted it in its tracks. And that doesn't often happen. In fact I can't think of any other time its happened - and all strong countries have unjust wars in their past.

I don't think that is something for Americans to be ashamed of.

And as for the Americans who went to fight in Vietnam, either they were doing it because they thought that was the right thing to do, and believed what they were told about it being a just war for a just cause, or they were prisoners of the state, forced into uniform. Those aren't reasons for embarrassment.

As for the atrocities, the horrible things that some soldiers did, that happens in every war, a combination of a kind of madness that can turn ordinary people into monsters, and the technological blindness that leads the people in charge to order carpet bombing and stuff like Agebnt Orange. The difference here was that it came to light at least some of the time, and some people spoke up.And that doesn't often happen either.

But there's one thing that sometimes seems to get lost in all this. The focus seems to be on the terrible things that the war did to America, and to Americans. It almost seems as if what happened to the millions of Vietnamese whop died (one million? two? three?)is a secondary matter. And that is scary, because it points to a world in which,if the wars can avoid killing the tens of thousands of "our boys", while still killing the millions of foreigners, there won't be too much opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 03 May 00 - 09:15 AM

So, has anyone actually read this book? I think it's interesting that so many people are denouncing a book they haven't read. Shouldn't we suspend judgment until we read the damn thing? From the reviews, I thought the book probably had something worthwhile to say about the way an urban myth can be perpetuated until it becomes the "truth" that informs subsequent attitudes and decisions. But I, too, am suspending judgment until I read it myself.

I am fortunate enough to be an veteran of eight years of service in the peacetime American military. I have enormous respect for the sacrifices of those who fought for the United States. I think the Vietnam war was unjust and based on some seriously flawed assumptions, but that is no reflection on the people who actually fought on our side of that war -- whether they were there by choice or were compelled by the government to serve. By and large these were dedicated, honorable people who deserve our respect and gratitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 May 00 - 10:42 AM

Hey WS.......I said above that I'd like to read the book before I pass judgement, but I do question the need for a book with this premise. What's the point? It may be interesting reading and again I'd imagine that within certain narrow confines of documentation, these incidents did not happen. As others have said, if you narrow the criterion enough, the Holocaust didn't take place, which is ridiculous. All that aside though.....What's the point?

The war divided this country into multiple factions, not just two. From each perspective there were wrongs and rights, truth and lies, honor and shame. All of us carry those with us every day. We have tried to heal the wounds we inflicted on each other and we have both succeeded and failed. Some will never forgive the actions of others. Some will see through the surface and face their own demons with honesty.....and pain. In either case or those many in between, this kind of book can only offer a narrow and, to me, devisive influence that does nothing to further understanding, history, or healing.

But I will read it as I have many others. And I'll remember friends lost and friends made. I'll feel the angst of those times again and question decisions I made. I'll think of the Wall and remember standing before it in tears, amazed that I was now crying for that which I so detested. We were young and the offspring of a generation where the choices were clearer. Now we are old and the choices will live with us for eternity, but we can offer each other an understanding which was beyond us at the time.

I doubt many future VietNam era authors will be reading Mudcat threads, but if they do, may I ask that you give us books of unity and understanding and not division? Just a thought.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 00 - 10:59 AM

Noble, noble soul leaking through there, Spaw-man. Sweetest prose I have ever seen from your leaky pen. Thanks for a rare moment of pure electric understanding.

A

P.S. ...If you're gonna start waxing eloquent, insightful, full of depth and compassion and vision like that, can I be the Mudcat Garbage-mouthed Curmudgeon? Just wanna see how the other half lives...you understand!

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 03 May 00 - 11:27 AM

Hey Spaw -- I'm going out on a limb here, since I still haven't read the book. But one possible answer to your "what's the point?" question is that it illustrates how we adopt attitudes and points of view based on "facts" that may not be factual. I find this to be a tremendously relevant and important question. We all carry around a lot of assumptions that are not based on personal knowledge, and we all incorporate these assumptions into our view of the world. We Americans recently fought another war (the 1991 Gulf War) in which we made a lot of decisions based on the lessons we learned from our Vietnam experience. If our view of the Vietnam experience was fundamentally flawed, then our decisions in the Gulf may also have been flawed. And the decisions we make tomorrow, or next year, or ten years from now, may likewise spring from these same flawed assumptions.

Military people and planners are often justly criticized for "fighting the last war". There is some justification for the view that when we fought in Vietnam, we were actually mis-applying the lessons we learned in World War II (that America's overwhelming industrial superiorty would make the achievement of our aims in Vietnam a foregone conclusion). So it's worth examining the lessons we took from the Vietnam era to see if we are also misapplying them to the crises we face today.

If history were just a rehashing of past events that have no relevance today, then I would agree that there's little value in this. But the Vietnam War has had a tremendous impact on US foreign policy in the years since, so I think that questioning our assumptions about that war is worthwhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 May 00 - 11:43 AM

Well, what say we read the book and find out what he has to say and what relevance we find? We'll come back with book reports, just like in grade school!!!(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: canoer
Date: 03 May 00 - 12:10 PM

McGrath, I'm glad you mention the Vietnamese. If it was a psychologically hellish time here in the states, it was a total hell many times over for Vietnam. I think the figures of 1 million soldiers killed, and 2 million civilians killed, are roughly accurate.

General Curtis LeMay said "we should bomb them into the stone age."

It is not well appreciated (insert list of reasons here) that a people who basically still were in the stone age, stood up to an invading Goliath and kept on fighting and fighting for their land, in the face of such terrible casualties. They showed an example that said to the whole world, "It can be done."

One reason for the U.S. campaign of mass destruction, was to send another message to the world: "If you try to resist us, this is what you'll get."

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 May 00 - 02:19 PM

I'm the person who started this thread, and I am very surprised at the hostile reaction to Lembcke and his thesis. I feel inclined to defend him (although I, too, haven't read the book), but he can probably do a better job himself. Here is an article written by Jerry Lembcke himself on the same topic.

I have searched the web for reviews, but they are pretty scarce:

Here is a review that appeared in the Denver Post.

Here is a "thumbs up" review that appeared in "Storm Warning!" the publication of an organization called "Vietnam Veterans Against the War Anti-Imperialist." It also includes some enlightening quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 May 00 - 02:47 PM

McGrath is right. I am perturbed by LEJ's remark that in the next war massive casualties will not be acceptable (not that I attribute bad motives to LEJ, whom I deeply respect, and everyone else here who has been through hell). But it is a revealing remark. He means massive American casualties. There seems to be a filtration system against the lives of other people meaning even a small fraction of American lives. This is perhaps understandable for every country, but in the last two wars that America has been fighting in, first, the Gulf War, 300 or so Americans lost their lives (I am not trivializing this at all), and well over 100,000 Iraqis, with thousands of children dying every few months still; second, Kosovo, where no Americans, repeat no Americans (or Canadians for that matter) lost their lives, and thousands of other people did underneath Allied bombs.

I am not blaming Americans for these messes; nor saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. I have personal opinions about both wars. I personally don't want anyone to die anywhere. But Americans should be aware that this kind of thing frightens people from other countries a lot. There is a widespread perception that only precious Americans matter, and that everyone else is target practice for testing new weapons systems.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 May 00 - 02:55 PM

First Jim......Thanks for the links and I see where the book may be going, but I hate the title. I will be reading it and I'm glad you started the thread.

Peter.....Your point is sound and I would be the last to argue your premise against you. But to inject a bit of dark humor, have you seen George Carlin's routine about bombing "brown people?" A few years back, but darkly funny for its truth.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 May 00 - 03:18 PM

No, is it on an album or a video? -- not that I would look for it -- the subject of abstracting other people for the purposes of dulling your responses is pretty well worked over on all sides of the debate for me. As the son of a WWII bomber pilot (who never got a service medal because of outrage over the saturation bombing late in the war), and having lived on a U.S. Air Force base in the 60's and watched school friends go off and get killed in Vietnam, I have had more than enough of this subject for one lifetime. It just keeps coming back. Star Wars Mark II will ensure that it will have a continuing life.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: MarkS
Date: 03 May 00 - 07:22 PM

For anybody who would like to discuss this issue from the perspective of veterans themselves, just Click here
Here you can ask and get answers directly from the horses mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: MarkS
Date: 03 May 00 - 07:26 PM

Looks like my attempt at posting a blue clicky did not take. One more time
Click here

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 May 00 - 07:46 PM

"And let us be careful in our use of the great power at our disposal so that, as we do not sacrifice the youth of our country, neither do we sacrifice the lives of our enemies without overwhelming cause."

Peter, I think you missed this part of my statement in the previous post. My meaning is that, as we have learned an obvious lesson to not consider our youth expendable(unacceptable casualties), perhaps the next step is to consider the lives of the young soldiers of our enemies in a more enlightened way.

LEJ

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST,fadac
Date: 03 May 00 - 08:02 PM

It's been a long time. However, VENT MODE ON!

But I was spat upon, had things thrown at me, and my auto damaged. It is very unlikly that anyone was spat upon getting off of the airplane from 'Nam. Why? Because the airplanes landed at Air Force Bases. Then there was a period of processing, your free steak dinner (I got breakfast on both of my homecommings) pay call, uniform issue, etc. etc. So for some reason I didn't see any protestors on the Air Force Bases.

If one want's be selective of their data, you can prove ANYTHING.

Anyway, I'm sick of the whole subject, I don't want some chowder head telling me what a "Good Job" I did. That was probably the same chowder head that tossed a rock through my windshield because of the 4Th Inf. badge on the car.

Now it's fashonable to be pro vet. I think most of this good boy crap is from people that are trying to set them selves streight after screwing the vets over for years.

BTW I worked at a major electronics company and the first people layed off in the mid 80's was all the vets. While the YCP (young collage pukes) stayed on.

So nowdays I don't have much respect for YCP's or anyone in the press. Respect is something that someone earns, and I give what I was shown.

VENT MODE OFF,

Let's forget this crap and go have a nice round of the Hoky Poky!

-fadac

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 00 - 08:02 PM

"the lives of the young soldiers of our enemies"

But in most modern wars the soldiers are only a tiny proportion of the people who get killed. The exception at the time was the Second Gulf War (the way we forget the first Gulf War, the terrible Iran-Iraq war is a but shocking - just because "the West" wasn't directly in vollved - apart of course from the US Vincennes shooting down the Iranian civilian airbus with its 300 passengers).

But of course the civilian dead since then, through sanctions, has made up then balance by now, vastly outnumbering the 200,000 Iraqui soldiers killed at the time.

And note, I haven't said anything about the rights and wrongs of the war or the sanctions - the point I'm making is that in modern war it's civilians that mostly get killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: MarkS
Date: 03 May 00 - 09:18 PM

Sorry, but my attempts at a blue clicky just do not seem to be working out. If you want to try it the old way, try
http://espn.space.swri.edu/vn101/index.htm

So if anybody else can turn that into a blue clicky,please do, and let me know what you did!
Thanks, MarkS

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST,mary g
Date: 04 May 00 - 12:15 AM

yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: SeanM
Date: 04 May 00 - 12:23 AM

FADAC! Great to see you back and posting, even if it is only here...

OK... I'm 28, which means that about the time all of this was happening, I was still debating the great philosophical discussion of what exactly a toilet was.

However, after reading the blurb from the author available at the link, it doesn't look as if he's disputing that the "spitting" happened. What it looks like he's trying to move away from is the idea that such a reaction was widespread, and extremely common.

I'm not going to debate individual incidents. They happened. There are enough victims and witnesses to call that point in any case.

I WILL say that from what I gathered out of his message, that from HIS viewpoint, spitting at vets as a social phenomena (rather than as isolated acts) didn't happen. And to address the "healing" view that 'spaw pointed out, that appears to a certain extent to be something that he's interested in as well.

I'm too lazy to go and transport quotes myself, but what I gathered out of his synopsis is that he's trying to remove the stereotype of the young, brave veteran vs. dirty, unwashed, agitating hippy. Personally, I think this could be a good thing.

Now of course, the book could be something entirely different. In which case, I've got about 70 different recipes ready for the serving of crow, and I'm entirely prepared to eat my own cooking.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 May 00 - 08:37 AM

Dear fadac:
I may be wrong, but in my experience, the same sons of bitchs who sent you and your brothers to Viet Nam, to die for Goodyear Rubber, are the same sons of bitchs who are putting you out of work, and the young college pukes, as you say, whose jobs are preserved, are not the ones who said wake up to the fact that this country is OWNED by a small elete minority, but the sons of the sons of bitchs who OWN the country, though, it is becomeing more of a youth culure where we old grey heads are generally expendable. If it gets much worce, ol pal, we wont be fighting, you and I over the old Viet Nam issue, we will be in perfect agreement, all mixed together in the Solent Green.
All the best, to all,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 May 00 - 09:46 AM

You are right, LEJ, I apologise. I got too hung up on reacting to the first paragraph. That will teach me to pontificate in a hurry.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 04 May 00 - 11:15 AM

McGrath, you make a good point about civilian deaths in modern war. But is this a bad thing, or a good thing? It could be argued that societies (American and others) will continue to support a war with the flimsiest of justifications until the reality of that war is brought home to them. This is not a new idea -- General Sherman (American Civil War, 1861-65) "War is hell") made this point many times, as part of the justification for his invasion of the Confederacy. It could also be argued (has been, in fact) that the U.S. is much too willing to go with the military option because our wars always happen "over there," so the civilian deaths are rarely ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 May 00 - 11:47 AM

Jim Dixon.....Thanks again for the links, especially the one of his own writings which goes far to explain the "why" of the book. I'm sure that the title dose not reflect the real book, and the idea sprang from it instead. Looking forward to another perspective. I still stand by my previous postings regarding my thoughts, decisions, healing, and all.....but I am more comfortable with his personal motivations.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 00 - 12:43 PM

Whistlestop. I can't see that the fact that millions of civilians on the other side are being butchered ever stopped most people supporting "our" side in a war. Even with Vietnam the impression I've got is that, for Americans, the casualties that really mattered, both at the time and retrospectively, were American conscripts, rather than Vietnamese civilians. There's no wall of remembrance for the Vietnamese civilians. (And the same is true for other countries in other wars.)

And when it's your own civilians that get killed by the other side in a war, the effect seems to be to make the country under attack even more determined to fight on. Even death camps have that effect. (So did General Sherman insofar as he waas engaged in terrorising civilians rather than destroying the resourcer s that made continued resistance possible.)

Now if they could come up with some way of waging war which selectively picked on politicians and so forth, it might be a different story.

Short of that, some guarantee that generals and politicians who intentionally kill civilians or commit other war crimes can never be safe from the prospect of facing trial in a war crimes court might just slow them up a bit. Including the ones from England and France and America, not just from the little countries. Too late for General Sherman of course. Pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: annamill
Date: 04 May 00 - 01:07 PM

I have tried so hard to stay out of this thread. Just reading the title brings tears to my eyes. I think there was anger and pain here at home at the atrocities that were done. I was angry and very ashamed to be an American.

But not once did I, or anyone I knew, feel anger at the soldiers that had to deal with that pain. I wanted to kill General Blackstone, or whatever Calley's generals name was.

Let me tell you about someone. I dated him for awhile. He was the national sales manager for a very large well known firm. He had a style you only dream about. He and some friends leased about 40,000 acres in Cali for hunting. He had his own winery and served me delicious white and red wine from his own vineyards. We used to take the wine and cheese and ripe pears and sit in his jacuzzi and talk for hours. He loved the same music I did and intrduced me to a few musicians I didn't know. I could have loved this man.

But...he also kept a large amount of guns, rifles, shotguns in his house. Safely of course. He had a house right across from the ocean and used to stand in his house just inside the doors to his balcony and shoot crows off telephone lines. He used to drink himself into mindlessness EVERY night. He used to go to sleazy bars because as head of such a large organization, he couldn't do the things he did in sleazy bars in bars where his peers were.

You see he was a sniper in Vietnam during the war and had $25,000's on his head. He did shoot babies and woman and children and old men and whoever he had to. He once told me "Yes, I'm a baby killer and I enjoyed every moment of it" with a painful grin on his face.

He told me he was very angry about how he was treated back home and very hurt for the hatred he received here. I told him we (war protesters) didn't hate him (the soldiers), but hated the circumstances that made beautiful young men into such vicious killers.

I've never felt more pain for any one human being like I felt for that poor beautiful young man in an old man's body.

He left me against my wishes because he felt he was getting way too close and he was afraid he would really hurt me. He probably would have.

I hate that war!! any war!!

There I go getting emotional again!

Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bert
Date: 04 May 00 - 01:17 PM

McGrath,

Actually we were involved in that 'first' Gulf War. We were selling arms to Iran and intelligence to Iraq.

But don't worry about not knowing that. George Bush didn't know it either (Ho, bloody Ho!).