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Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?

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Braveheart music wanted (12)
Folklore: Braveheart...again (66)


Escamillo 10 May 00 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,Sam Pirt 10 May 00 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,JulieF 10 May 00 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Jim Wallace 10 May 00 - 08:34 AM
Mbo 10 May 00 - 11:00 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 10 May 00 - 11:02 AM
Aodh 10 May 00 - 11:14 AM
Brian Hoskin 10 May 00 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,JulieF 10 May 00 - 12:16 PM
Bert 10 May 00 - 01:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 May 00 - 01:50 PM
GUEST 10 May 00 - 02:16 PM
Peg 10 May 00 - 03:45 PM
catspaw49 10 May 00 - 04:20 PM
MMario 10 May 00 - 04:24 PM
JulieF 10 May 00 - 04:25 PM
Petr 10 May 00 - 09:31 PM
sophocleese 10 May 00 - 11:09 PM
katlaughing 11 May 00 - 12:11 AM
Brendy 11 May 00 - 12:50 AM
Escamillo 11 May 00 - 03:01 AM
Chanteyranger 11 May 00 - 04:20 AM
Liz the Squeak 11 May 00 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 11 May 00 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowbetter 11 May 00 - 06:16 PM
Áine 11 May 00 - 07:09 PM
Chanteyranger 11 May 00 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,Anacreon 12 May 00 - 07:13 PM
Liz the Squeak 13 May 00 - 03:11 AM
GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhran.....) 13 May 00 - 02:35 PM
RichM 13 May 00 - 02:46 PM
paddymac 13 May 00 - 04:36 PM
Victoria H. 13 May 00 - 05:27 PM
Richard Bridge 13 May 00 - 05:41 PM
Malcolm Douglas 13 May 00 - 05:42 PM
Victoria H. 13 May 00 - 05:46 PM
Victoria H. 13 May 00 - 05:53 PM
Escamillo 14 May 00 - 03:21 AM
paddymac 14 May 00 - 09:37 AM
Liz the Squeak 14 May 00 - 04:07 PM
Malcolm Douglas 14 May 00 - 09:22 PM
GUEST,Mrbisok@aol 15 May 00 - 10:38 AM
Malcolm Douglas 15 May 00 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) 15 May 00 - 01:21 PM
sophocleese 15 May 00 - 10:51 PM
Penny S. 16 May 00 - 04:38 PM
Irish Rover 16 May 00 - 06:13 PM
sophocleese 16 May 00 - 11:44 PM
GUEST,Penny S. 17 May 00 - 01:07 PM
Bob Bolton 20 May 00 - 06:14 AM
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Subject: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Escamillo
Date: 10 May 00 - 04:34 AM

Sorry for my curiosity. The music of Mel Gibson's movie Braveheart, by James Horner is one of the favorites in my family, without discussion. I assume everybody knows it, so my question is, can this music be considered genuine celtic ? is it slightly or strongly influenced by symphonic modern tendencies ? Do you know of other important works like this to exist in the market (a Celtic Symphony, Celtic Suite or alike) ? Do you think that it is rather a commercial product ?
(When I say one question, I mean 5 or 6, you know)
Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 10 May 00 - 06:48 AM

Hi

I am not sure really but what I do know is that the piper that plays in the soundtrack called Eric Rigler also plays on the titanic soundtrack as well as being a member of a great band the 'Skydance Band' which was put together by a great scottish fiddler that now lives in America called Alastair Fraser. They have done two CD's on the Culburnie label called 'Way oiut to Hope Street' & the latest 'Labrynth' Extremly good band.

Cheers, Sam


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 10 May 00 - 08:11 AM

Alan Stivell wrote a Celtic symphony but the main proponent of this type of music is Michael O'Sullivan - I think he's professor at the University of Limerick ( or is it Cork ?) Some one out there knows exactly I bet. There is Video called River of Sound which charts traditional music and dnace development. I think there is also a CD of the same name.

There are other celtic/ classical music composers - none of which I can remember. Allegedy O'Carlan ( Blind Irish 17th/18th Century Harpist) wrote his concerto when challenged to write in that style.

Hope that is some help and others can build on this.

Julie


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Subject: Other Celtic Symphonic Suites
From: GUEST,Jim Wallace
Date: 10 May 00 - 08:34 AM

You might try two CDs by Mychael & Jeff Dana. The first was "A Celtic Tale, the story of Deidra." Can't recall the title of the other right now. Another very good symphonic suite is "The Wellpark Suite." I don't know the composer and I think its out of print now. I really enjoyed all of these.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Mbo
Date: 10 May 00 - 11:00 AM

Jim, "The Wellpark Suite" is by Scottish harper/composer/personal idol of mine William Jackson. He's also done "A Scottish Isle" symphonic suite, and "St.Mungo: A Celtic Suite for Glasgow," both of which are awesome!

As for the Danna Brothers albums, the first one is "A Celtic Tale: The Legend of Deirdre", and the second is "A Celtic Romance: The Legend of Liadain & Curithir" both of which are beautiful.

Another composer you might want to check out, another personal idol, is Shaun Davey. He has done the famous symphonic suite "The Brendan Voyage" with AWESOME Uilleann piper Liam O'Flynn, as well as "Granuaille" about Irish pirate Grace O'Malley, with Liam O'Flynn on the pipes and Rita Connelly masterfully singing. He also composed the superb soundtrack to the movie "Waking Ned Devine." His newest work is "The Pilgrim", a symphonic suite with orchestra, Highland pipe band, huge chorus, and Rita Connelly singing--about Irish St.Columcille, and his exile to the Isle of Skye, where he brought Christianity to the Picts of Scotland, thus becoming St.Columba, "The Dove of Peace". The final movement "A' Ghrian" is one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard. Worth looking into!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 10 May 00 - 11:02 AM

I don't recall the music specifically. Some of it is probably celtic, but none of it I recognized as something I know. I suspect it is a case of celtic influenced. The bagpiping could plausibly be authentic, with only 9 notes, it's hard to generate tunes unless you are familiar with the instrument and know its capabilities. Likely that was genuine.

Rob Roy on the other hand DID have genuine Gaelic singing, which was a song contemporary to the time setting.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Aodh
Date: 10 May 00 - 11:14 AM

What is celtic music? What makes it differ from goidelic music or brythonic music? In my own lowly opinion I think its nothing more than artistic licencey with a long forgotten, miss-understood past. Films like Braveheart, whilst very enjoyable, do nothing more than fule the need for such tripe. Scotland for one has a hard enough task to get rid of its 'white heather and kilts' image with out replacing it with enya-esque ideals of tir nan og. just wanted to say that!?!


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 10 May 00 - 11:24 AM

I agree with Aodh; it very much depends on what you understand by the terms 'authentic' and 'Celtic'.

Brian


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 10 May 00 - 12:16 PM

I used to worry about the tweeness (Sweet/cloying oh it a problem to defined twee - but such a good word) of a lot of Scottish music especially where it touched on old time popular music and the scottish country type music ( I belong to Glasgow done as a waltz etc - just think of some of the Irish Show bands). More recently there seems to have been many albums called - Celtic Inspirations which is cloying - mainly keyboard versions of traditional tunes. These tend to be authentic and can be defined as 'Celtic' in the popular understanding of the word but the character of the music has been lost.

I don't believe that the tradition must stay stationary (although we must not loose what we have already). There is a great deal of very good scottish music which is progressing and mixing with other styles. Sometimes it work sometimes it doesn't but a least we are trying. ( well not me personally - but you know what I mean.

I think I've strayed from the point - but everybody has a hobbyhorse don't they.

Julie


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Bert
Date: 10 May 00 - 01:29 PM

Twee, you're right Julie, it's such a good word, but I don't use it much because I have to explain it every time. They use 'cute' here in the US when they mean twee. But cute is such a generic word that a lot has to be implied from the context.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 00 - 01:50 PM

There's Gaelic music, which hales from Scotland and Ireland and the Isle of Man and has a fair number of things in common musically; then there are other types of Scottish Music and Irish Music, which are not Gaelic.

And there's music from Britanny; and music from Wales, where the language is pretty similar, but the cultures and the music have very little in common. And there's music from Conrwall,where the old language was similar again, but the culture has very little,in common with eitherr Britanny or Wales. And down in Spain there is Galicia whee they speak Spanish, but the people may have spopken some kind of Gaelic rrealted language.

The point I'm making "Celtic" music as such, in the sense of a common heritage and tradition stretching over all theese countries, doesn't really exist. What there is is a bunch of very different traditions with some great music, and it's always good to exchange ideas and tunes and such.

And I agree that the music in Rob Roy is better music, and pretty authentically Gaelic.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 00 - 02:16 PM

When did the term 'Celtic music' first appear as a description of some known music? I think it was probably between 1985 and 1990, but don't really know for sure.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Peg
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:45 PM

Capercaille did most of the music for Rob Roy...pretty darn authentic! nice soundtrack...

Shaun Davey also wrote the music for the Broadway play "The Dead" which is up for several Tony Awards as we speak...

I sang "Dubhdharra" for a band I was in some years ago, that whole album is great...


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 May 00 - 04:20 PM

Does a chicken have lips?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: MMario
Date: 10 May 00 - 04:24 PM

'spaw - how would you define "lips"? BTW the answer is "yes" - but not the ones most people would think of...I trust that most residents of NYCFTS would


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: JulieF
Date: 10 May 00 - 04:25 PM

No its no good I'd have to be the straight guy - who mentioned chickens ?

julie


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Petr
Date: 10 May 00 - 09:31 PM

ITs been a while since I listened to Either Braveheart and Rob Roy, I remember that Rob Roy contained an Irish march (O'Sullivans) or something like that. I think that Braveheart the wedding scene featured a piper playing Drowsy Maggie. (I think its undetermined whether thats an Irish or Scottish tune but I dont think it dates back 800 years). Cheers Petr


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: sophocleese
Date: 10 May 00 - 11:09 PM

You might like Scott MacMillan's "Celtic Mass for the Sea" which was inspired by tunes from Scotland. He's a Canadian composer living in Cape Breton (or should I say a Cape Breton composer living in Canada?). From the sounds of it an excellent musician.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 May 00 - 12:11 AM

This is from a site another Mudcatter pointed me in the direction over a year ago. You might find it helpful atStanding Stones.

Here's what it says about "Celtic Music":

What is Celtic Music?

Celtic music. Fanciful term which expresses a world-view or record-shelf category rather than actual links between music genres.
1. Indicates 'Irish' or 'Scottish' musics, but is increasingly used in Britain and the US to denote 'Irish', this suggesting discomfort with 'Irishness'. In Europe it may denote Breton or Galician music in addition to Irish, Scottish and Welsh. The music of Brittany is different to Irish music, but is within the playing and listening experience of many irish traditional musicians. Isle of Man, England and Wales are connected cultures, but Scotland has particularly strong linguistic and music links with Ireland, as has the Scots-Irish diaspora in Canada (Cape Breton, Newfoundland, etc.)
2. More superficially the term 'Celtic' has come to apply to an easy-listening, 'mood' music with dreamy, non-specific but Irish/Scots flavour, marketed as 'relaxing', 'evocative', etc. Such albums are legion, and enjoy a large sale in the US where the Narada company produces many compilation and re-licensed collections—including the playing of such as Máire Ní Chathasaigh, John Whelan and Joanie Madden—while the Mercury label's 'Secret Garden' features Davy Spillane.
Traditional players sometimes use the term also, probably to appeal to the pre-formed audience. (Seán O'Driscoll's solo album is titled Celtic Music, Shanachie's 90 per cent Irish song collection is Celtic Love Songs, Green Linnet's, with similar composition, is Celtic Women in Music and Song), but few players would describe themselves as playing anything other than 'traditional' or 'Irish' music.

Fintan Vallely, ed. The Companion to Irish Traditional Music New York University Press, 1999 pp. 64-65

You might also find this site interesting: Scotz.com, formerly Rampant Scotland. I haven't looked at it in awhile, but it has a lot of links.

This one has even more and looks as though it would be really good, again, it's one I haven't been to in awhile: Scotfaq

And, this one is just for Spaw, they say they are slimy and gelatinous and not fit to eat, but I'll bet you'd like them! Chicken Lips.**BG**


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Brendy
Date: 11 May 00 - 12:50 AM

What's your definition of authentic?

And what's your definition of celtic?

B.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Escamillo
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:01 AM

Another thread to include in my library. I´ll try the music and the sites mentioned here and I´m sure I´ll have a great, great time !
Brendy, as for me, an authentic music is not easy to define, but in general, I would say that it should 1)Not be intended to especially conform to commercial standards, 2)Not be composed as a mix of imitations of other musical works from other authors or the same. From this point we can talk about quality, taste, emotional content, etc.
About the term "celtic", there are many others who can talk with some authority - my knowledge is marginal on this (and so many other subjects) :)
Lots of thanks from a "celtic music" wannabe.
Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 11 May 00 - 04:20 AM

Another name that should be mentioned is Sean O Riada. In Ireland, he was composing fully orchestrated film scores with traditional -inspired music in the 1950's, and in the early sixties, helped found Ceoltoiri Chualann, the name of the group who later became The Chieftains. I was fortunate enough to hear a mass he composed performed in a church in Co. Kerry in 1989, many years after his death, during my so far only trip to Ireland. The chorus was a group of local pub singers, and it was all sung in Irish.Very poignant to hear it in that setting. He was a major influence in taking traditional music and arranging it, or composing new music inspired by tradition.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:40 PM

Depends on what you mean by authentic - in the scene featuring a highland piper, the pipes you hear are actually Northumbrian......

LTS


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:49 PM

The score to "Braveheart" is authentic late 20th century film score music.

T.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowbetter
Date: 11 May 00 - 06:16 PM

I've always thought of "Celtic Music" as a marketing ploy to get gigs for Scottish pipers on St Patrick's day or to sell Irish CDs on Robert Burns Birthday, or to book Breton bands at Irish festivals. I think it does a disservice to all these different ethnic backgrounds to lump them together as one singular entity. Granted there has been some inter-mingliing and borrowing between cultures (especiallt Ireland and Scotland) and they various Goldelic and Brytholic languages originated as one, but they are still separate. Try making your way around Connemara speaking Breton! Sorry to offend but that's my opinion on the matter. By the way, I'm given to understand that the piping on the Braveheart soundtrack was done on Uilleann Pipes!

Rich


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Áine
Date: 11 May 00 - 07:09 PM

Just to add to chanteyranger's info on Seán Ó Riada -- I got the information below from the Contemporary Music Centre Ireland website, which you can find here:

Seán Ó Riada was born in 1971 in Cork. He studied music at University College, Cork with Aloys Fleischmann and received his B.Mus in 1952. He was Assistant Music Director at Radio Éireann between 1954 and 1955, and was Music Director at the Abbey Theatre from 1955 to 1962. He lectured in music at University College Cork from 1963 until his death in 1971.

Although best known for his work with Irish traditional music and the group, Ceoltóirí Chualann, Ó Riada wrote a number of original compositions which incorporated modern compositional techniques. These include a series of orchestral works given the Greek title Nomos, written between 1957 and 1966; the pastoral elegy, The Banks of Sullane (1956) and Four Hölderlin Songs (1956). He also wrote music for several films, including Mise Éire and Saoirse.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 11 May 00 - 07:52 PM

Aine, thanks for posting that website. Didn't know about it.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,Anacreon
Date: 12 May 00 - 07:13 PM

The main theme in Braveheart sounds like Gustav Holst's Jupiter from The Planets.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 May 00 - 03:11 AM

OK so I can't spell Uillean and decided to use Northumbrian pipes instead... What the heck, bloody Hollywood can't tell the difference between highland and bellows pipes, you think they're gonna give a poop about which part of Ireland or England they come from??!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhran.....)
Date: 13 May 00 - 02:35 PM

Liz, Sorry, It wasn't intended as an attack on your post, but clarifying for my own benefit. Rich


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: RichM
Date: 13 May 00 - 02:46 PM

I don't care to define what is "authentic"... Seems to me that someone(Huddie Ledbetter?) once said it best when asked about the definition of folk music:

...something about, "it's all folk music, never heard a horse sing ".

As you can tell, I play what I like--that's my only criterion.

Categories are for scholars--essentially defining something that is in the past,and not dealing with the irreverence, freshness and experimenting of the now.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: paddymac
Date: 13 May 00 - 04:36 PM

Tomas O'Canainn, an Engineering Professor at UC Cork and iellean piper/sean nos singer par excellance, succeeded Sean O'Riada as leader of the "Fili", a group dedicated to the traditional music of Ireland. He has at least one CD, ["Tomas O'Canainn: with pipe and song", Outlet Recording Co., Ltd, 15/21 Gordon St., Belfast BT1 2LG; Phone (01232)322826, FAX (01232)332671], and a book, which I think is titled "Irish Traditional Music" (I have it, someplace, but can't put my hands on it just now). I had the opportunity to meet him and get to know him a bit when he performed her on the CCE tour in '95. Dedicated fellow, and very nice man. He was 61 at the time, so he'd be 66 0r 67 at this point. As I recall from the book, the "signature" features of traditional Irish music are the fondness for modes and the frequency of 6th intervals in the melody line. "A Nation Once Again" is a good example of the fondness for 6ths. I heartily recommend him as a place to start if you want to dig into the scholalry side of Irish Traditional music. On the ancillary topic of "Celts", scholars who study the question still seem somewhat uncertain as to whether the "Celts" were a specific people who spread across europe, people who embraced a culture which spread across many peoples of europe in variant forms, or some combination of the two. I don't know that the question can ever be answered with any great certainty, but I tend to favor the combination approach. That makes the many "variations on a theme" that are popularly subsumed under the name "Celtic" easier to understand, though not necessarily any easier to define. Thanks for a most interesting question, Andres.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Victoria H.
Date: 13 May 00 - 05:27 PM

When I saw Eric Rigler several years ago (temporarily filling in for Battlefield Band's Iain MacDonald during the beginning of an American tour) He said that he chose to use the Uillean pipes because they evoked the sound and feel that he wanted for the movie. I can't pick too many arguments with music that is doing it's job. I like that post earlier, about categories being for Scholars... or, to quote Eric Rigler himself on the subject, "I knew the Scots would scream about it, but what the hell". I enjoyed both the movie and the music - isn't sharing styles and allowing change and evolution part of the folk tradition?


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 00 - 05:41 PM

"Authentic" is important, because you need to know where you have been as well as where you are in order to know in which direction you are going.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 May 00 - 05:42 PM

It isn't necessary to be a scholar to want to know more about the background to any sort of music; merely to be sufficiently interested in it to take it seriously and show it the respect it deserves.  That doesn't preclude irreverence, freshness, experimentation or evolution, but it does go some way to ensure that what we do, we do with intelligence and understanding.  Maybe one day we'll get through a discussion without somebody bringing up that blasted horse?

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Victoria H.
Date: 13 May 00 - 05:46 PM

One more note on my previous post.... if we insist on drawing specific lines discouraging crossover between styles, traditions and genres, what are so many Americans doing playing pipes in the first place? (not a serious question there, obviously!) One of the great things about "tradition" is how it carries on through generations,through families, through different time frames and countries and continually adapts, changes and grows, while coming from it's own roots. American "tradition", for example, is based on the traditions of countries from Ireland and Scotland to Russia, Poland and Japan. In a country defined by it's wealth of cultures, I am pleased to see cultural traditions of ANY kind taking center stage, and while I cringe along with everybody else at hearing "elevator music" versions of "Scotland the Brave" at least it is being played! The new age psuedo-celtic wave has it's drawbacks, certainly, but if true traditional music and bands get more attention from the public at large because of them, it has served a purpose. There is something, however, to 'truth in advertising'. I once saw Alistair Russell quoted as saying something along the lines of "If people like that sort of music and are buying it for that reason, that's fine, but if they are buying it because they think it's traditional, then they are being fooled" (I paraphrase) I am inclined to agree with him. Okay, that was SEVERAL more notes! Ooops, sorry! :-)


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Victoria H.
Date: 13 May 00 - 05:53 PM

Richard, I DO agree. And, if everyone will pardon another Battlefield Band quote (guess I'm just full of them today! LOL!) John McCusker once said "I think if people really listen to the music and love it,this allows us to be freer and more outrageous on the wilder things. If you understand where the tradition COMES from you can always go back, but you need to be rooted somewhere".


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Escamillo
Date: 14 May 00 - 03:21 AM

I haven't missed anyone of your postings. I think Victoria's quote from John McCusker above explains that need for "being rooted" that we often feel when enjoying music of any origin. Many of us do suffer that compulsive need to find replies to questions, like "who originated this?", "where it comes from?", "how those people were ?", and that could drive us to the comprehension of traditions.
Thank you and please continue if you wish!
Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: paddymac
Date: 14 May 00 - 09:37 AM

I referenced O'Canainn's book in my earlier post, but didn't have it "at hand". Well, I was able to find it, finally, so here are its details.

Title: Traditional Music In Ireland
Author: Tomas O'Canainn
Publishers: Original - 1978, by Routledge & Paul Keegan Reissue - 1993Ossian Pubs. Ltd, Cork, Ireland ISBN(reissue) 0-946005-73-7


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 May 00 - 04:07 PM

Yeah, that's all very well, but the dialogue at that moment was something like 'hear that, that's the sound of the highland pipes, the English banned them'. Bit too esoteric for me and I had hysterics all through what should have been a moving moment...

LTS


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 May 00 - 09:22 PM

Only too true; Hollywood does have some very odd ideas -presumably because the people who make the films can't be bothered to do the basic research, or would rather perpetuate misinformation because it's more profitable- about accents, music, and history.  Even if the Pipes had been banned -presumably that quote was from Rob Roy, since at the time of Braveheart the English government had no jurisdiction in Scotland- it would have been by the government of both nations (one and the same thing at that time), not by "The English"; in fact, of course, no such ban ever happened.  For details, see  here.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,Mrbisok@aol
Date: 15 May 00 - 10:38 AM

Yes, ENYA is the worst. Oh no, NIGHTNOISE is even worse than ENYA.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 May 00 - 12:21 PM

I may have confused the issue with a couple of misleading points in my earlier post.   In fact, of course, Edward I of England did have partial jurisdiction in Scotland for a while; the whole story is extremely complicated, and nobody comes out of it looking very good.  Chapter 3 of John Prebble's The Lion In The North covers it well for anyone who doesn't already know the details.  I assume, too, that I was wrong to think that the bagpipe line came from Rob Roy rather than Braveheart; sorry, Liz, for seeming to doubt your memory!  I was perhaps crediting the screenwriters with more knowledge than they actually possessed.  In Wallace's time, various forms of bagpipe (all mouth-blown; bellows were not used until much later) were played throughout both Scotland and England, so it wouldn't have been seen as a nationalist issue from either side; that bit was presumably just put into the film for effect, or because of confusion with the myth of post-Culloden proscription.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 15 May 00 - 01:21 PM

Creeping across the thread a bit - does anyone know about the music in "Gladiator" which seemed to finish a bit Celticish for some reason (after Holst, Wagner and other sources, unacknowledged)

Penny


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 May 00 - 10:51 PM

I just came back from seeing Gladiator, even though Harvey Keitel is not in it and I can't IMAGINE what character he would play if he were. The music at the end seemed to me to be somber, simple and atmospheric with some pseudo-african style drumming but that also describes some of what is called Celtic music these days as well as music from other cultures.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 May 00 - 04:38 PM

It was the singing that I thought sounded a bit like some of Enya - I did use the modifier "ish" with care.

Incidentally, I would not recommend seeing the film from row 4, the only place left in our cinema. And they don't charge less like the old days. Six quid for the "one-and-nines"!

Penny


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Irish Rover
Date: 16 May 00 - 06:13 PM

well, I Love the movie, but the history is wrong, the pipes are wrong, and the clothing is way wrong. but as I say I love the movie


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 May 00 - 11:44 PM

Sorry Penny I sounded a little snooty there, I didn't mean to direct it at you, more at the people who package anything and everything as Celtic to sell it. Personally I'm not sure I'd recommend seeing the Gladiator to anybody, front or back seats.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 17 May 00 - 01:07 PM

No apology necessary.


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Subject: RE: Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 May 00 - 06:14 AM

G'day all,

The question of whether bagpipes were banned seems irrelevant in a film about Sir William Wallace – or at least raises the question upon which side they should appear. Presumably – unless Hollywood has altered the calendar – the film ends with Wallace's death in 1305, at which time the Scots had no bagpipes, although they may were known to the English, who developed a number of regional bagpipes from around that period.

The following is a small extract from Percy Scholes' classic The Oxford Companion to Music, Oxford University Press, (First ed. 1938), Tenth Edition, 1970, twenty second impression, 1996 Edited by John Owen Ward.

Bagpipe Family Extract from (4): The Bagpipe in Scotland

... As stated above (3), the bagpipe was popular in England some centuries earlier than in Scotland. It begins to be mentioned and pictured in the latter country only from the early fifteenth century. James I of Scotland (lived 1304-1437) was a performer of reputation, and one may surmise that his example had something to do with the vogue the instrument quickly obtained. There are carvings showing bagpipes at Melrose Abbey and Roslin Chapel: the latter (1446) shows a performer playing from book presumably using the ancient notation just mentioned. Apparently some superiority in English playing was even after this period admitted, for in 1489 and 149 I the accounts of the Lord High Treasurer show payments to 'Inglis' players at the court.

Not having seen the film, I can't comment on any other part of the music but, if the Hollywood use of an anachronistic instrument can be taken as a sample of their attitude, it is much more likely to fit to stereotype and prejudice than fact.

Plus ca change, plus ca meme.

Regards, Bob Bolton


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