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Folklore: Braveheart...again

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Braveheart music wanted (12)
Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ? (50)


GUEST,Adolfo 14 Jun 04 - 04:30 PM
AKS 15 Jun 04 - 03:00 AM
Clinton Hammond 15 Jun 04 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,Adolfo 15 Jun 04 - 12:52 PM
GUEST 15 Jun 04 - 03:42 PM
erinmaidin 16 Jun 04 - 09:13 AM
LadyJean 17 Jun 04 - 12:38 AM
Eric the Viking 17 Jun 04 - 12:25 PM
jack halyard 17 Jun 04 - 04:31 PM
GUEST 18 Jun 04 - 05:50 AM
Maryrrf 18 Jun 04 - 08:48 AM
Clinton Hammond 18 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,V 18 Jun 04 - 12:49 PM
Amergin 18 Jun 04 - 10:30 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 04 - 07:34 AM
Jim McLean 19 Jun 04 - 05:22 PM
greg stephens 19 Jun 04 - 05:59 PM
Jim McLean 20 Jun 04 - 06:41 AM
sledge 20 Jun 04 - 09:07 AM
Jim McLean 20 Jun 04 - 01:25 PM
kendall 21 Jun 04 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Adolfo 21 Jun 04 - 05:57 AM
sledge 21 Jun 04 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 21 Jun 04 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Adolfo 21 Jun 04 - 07:53 AM
Jim McLean 21 Jun 04 - 09:28 AM
greg stephens 21 Jun 04 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 21 Jun 04 - 10:27 AM
Big Mick 21 Jun 04 - 11:40 AM
Big Tim 21 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM
Big Tim 21 Jun 04 - 12:41 PM
Clinton Hammond 21 Jun 04 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Randy Duax 21 Jun 04 - 08:02 PM
Strupag 22 Jun 04 - 04:21 PM
Jim McLean 23 Jun 04 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Mathieu Lacroix 15 Feb 05 - 08:29 PM
Swave N. Deboner 16 Feb 05 - 01:04 PM
Cluin 16 Feb 05 - 06:05 PM
Den 17 Feb 05 - 01:42 PM
Folkiedave 17 Feb 05 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,hasugar 06 Dec 05 - 02:39 PM
fiddler 07 Dec 05 - 04:02 AM
Hopfolk 07 Dec 05 - 07:19 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 06 - 12:18 AM
Peace 24 Nov 06 - 12:20 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 24 Nov 06 - 08:16 AM
manitas_at_work 24 Nov 06 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Pengin Egg 25 Nov 06 - 03:57 AM
Jim McLean 25 Nov 06 - 12:21 PM
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Subject: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 04:30 PM

Greetings to all.
My question is: what do the triumphant Scottish clan boys shout after they overthrew the English garrison in that sort of wooden fort? The old man, Wallace's best friends's father, he starts shouting something like 'MacAuley' or at least it sounds like that. In the Spanish subtitles, it says 'venganza' (revenge), but my English goes as far as to know that MacAuley or whatever it is doesn´t mean that (unless it is Gaelic, in which case I must remain silent).
Any William Wallace's fan can ellucidate, please? No, Mel, thanks, I'd rather another one answered, if you don't mind.
Thanks a lot.

Also see Gude Wallace


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: AKS
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 03:00 AM

I think that 'Wallace' is someone whose son would be called 'MacAulish / MacWallace' - or ???

AKS


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 09:49 AM

Don't look for accuracy from Hollywood...

I thought MacCollough was the old guys last name...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 12:52 PM

Thanks you very much, friends. Some time someone suggested the Scots would shout their chieftain's name after a victory, so MacAuley could very well be some sort of MAc-Walli(s) or even MacCollough. It was this 'revenge' in the subtitles that had puzzled me.
Of course, Hollywood follows that principle: 'you can rape History but only to beget a child'.
Thanks again.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 03:42 PM

i think maccullough was the father in law...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: erinmaidin
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:13 AM

I'm wondering (having only seen the movie once long ago)...the attack made on the garrison was for revenge for the killing of Wallace's beloved. Often used as an endearing term after particularly fine renditions of songs sung by women (usually from the men this comes) is...something that sounds like "maith cailin" which...if it is actually "maith" and not "mo" ...means "good girl"..and is a term offered quite respectfully.
Is there a connection of some sort here?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 12:38 AM

Any remseblance between "Braveheart" and history was purely coincidental.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 12:25 PM

My mother was a Wallace, and she used to shout

"Eric, your dinner is ready".


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: jack halyard
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 04:31 PM

On another tack, the term "Brave heart" had nothing to do with Wallace.
According to legend, James Douglas "The Black Douglas" went on a crusade after the Bruce's death, with Bruce's heart in a casket.
Bruce had asked that his heart be taken on the crusade, since by his death, he could not go.
In the heat of a particularly savage engagement, Douglas is said to have cried "Lead, brave heart, and Douglas will follow." and threw the casket into the midst of the fray, carving his way after it. The tale has it that these were the circumstances of James Douglas's death.

This does not demean the immense heroism and leadership of the Wallace and his meaning to the Scots, it's just a reminder that-as was said previously by Lady Jean, any resemblance between "Braveheart and history was purely coincidental."


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:50 AM

Yes, something interesting about the taking of Bruce's heart to Holy Land to be buried there is that the Scottish party set off and sailed following the coast. By the time they came near Southern Spain and saw the Moors (still there until 1492), the palm trees and the unbearable heat, they came to the conclusion they'd already arrived in Holy Land. Of course, the presence of Spanish Christian knights attacking the Moorish cities must have helped to complete the picture.
Finally, they joined the Christian army and, in one of the raids, the small chest containing the heart was lost. A nobler version is included in the 'Lays of the Scottish Knights'.

I think that Braveheart is a nice combination of history, fiction, oral tradition (Murron's death is based on a traditional ballad) and the success that follows every piece of art where 'a group of poor ragged but brave men opposes and beats the best army in the world'.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Maryrrf
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 08:48 AM

Let's just say Braveheart was a great movie, but very bad history!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM

I wouldn't even say that...

Gladiator, and Rob Roy singularily were twice the movie Brave-fart even tried to be...

And Flesh & Blood beats all three of them together!

:-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,V
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:49 PM

Hit the wrong buutton. Clinton Wallace was his surname William was his first name. Try to stay awake at the cinema - hard to do with this sort of trash I'll admit;-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 10:30 PM

gladiator and rob roy were also very very grossly inaccurate....i didn't much care for either of them...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 07:34 AM

Amerigin...

Name me a Hollywood movie that WAS 'historically accurate'....

AND entertaining...

Pretty short list eh?

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't go to the movies for a history lesson... I go to be entertained....


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 05:22 PM

The basic history in Braveheart is correct. Wallace rose up against the English invaders, his wife was murdered by the English sheriff, he beat the English at the battke of Stirling Bridge, he refused the Scottish crown and was eventually executed horribly by the English on a charge of treason which was obviously incorrect .. he was not an English subject. His 'screwing' of the wife of the homosexual King Edward the second of England and his meeting with Bruce were, I reckon, flung in for dramatic and humerous effect ... image that Wallace could have fathered the future English monarch?!! The story was basically correct and only upsets those who do not like England portrayed that way. But remember it was more that 7 hundred years ago and, as suggested in an earlier posting, it was an admirable piece of entertainment.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 05:59 PM

I'm sure it was entirely historically correct that Wallace screwed Edward II's wife. How can you accuse Mel Gibson of such a dishonest act as to make that up, Jim?
   Of course, we can understand why the saintly Mel insisted on the actress playing said wife being a little older than the Queen was historically: I think she was in fact nine years old at the time of Wallace's death. It is unclear in the movie how long before his death the affair occurred, but obviously Mel Gibson felt that portraying a man who had sex with an eight year old(or thereabouts) might expose him, and Wallace for that matter, to some opprobrium. So we can excuse him for perhaps slightly shading the truth.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 06:41 AM

Actually Greg, she wasn't even in England at the time but I thought it quite a funny twist, especially the look on Edward I's face when Wallace whispered in his ear!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: sledge
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 09:07 AM

Much of the story of Wallace came to us in the late 15th century romance "The Wallace" ascribed to Henry the Mistral, also known as Blind harry. Real documentary evidence for many of his acts are few and far between.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 01:25 PM

So why is there such an outcry that Braveheart is historically innacurate? From where have the critics of Brveheart received their historical facts to compare with those of Blind Harry? Blind Harry's information was derived from a memoir written in Latin by John Blair (no relation to you know who, I hope), assisted by Thomas Gray, the former chaplain to Wallace, and the latter parson of Liberton, both eye-witnesses of the transactions they relate. There is also the Scotichronicon of Fordun or the history by Wynton, finished in 1424. Wynton lived within a century of the time and no doubt often conversed with those whose fathers had fought under the banners of Wallace.
I have the two volumes 'The Life of Sir William Wallace' by John D Carrick, 1830, and he spent a lot of time and effort researching all the relevant historians of time gone by. The books belonged to my grandfather, a Wallace, and have been my vade mecum for over 50 years. Remember what Robert Burns said '.... the story of William Wallace poured a tide of Scottish predudice into my veins, which will boil along there till the flood-gates of life shut on eternal rest'.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 05:16 AM

Considering that history is written by the winners, is any history accurate?
I liked ROB ROY, but I hated the rape scene...too graphic.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 05:57 AM

Talking about accurate historical films, it all depends on what you call 'entertaining'. What about Richard Harris's Cromwell, Paul Scoffield's A Man For All Seasons, Hemming's King ALfred, O'Toole & Hepburn's The Lion in Winter...? Yes, no blood, no horses charging, no kilt being upskirted, but lovely films anyway. And accurate.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: sledge
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 06:22 AM

Agree with you on most of that Adolfo apart from a man for all seasons, while not a bad movie, it fails to demonstrate that in his own way More was quite far from being the almost loveable charecter as portrayed in the movie, and something of a religous bigot even for the time, as shown by his preference for persecuting/burning heretics a thing not much in fashion in England until his time.

The lion in winter is a masterpiece in my books.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 06:29 AM

As Jim says the basis of Braveheart is true historically but it's a bit like explaning to people that soap operas like Coronation Stret and Eastenders aren't real life !!! What amazed me was when we watched the video of Braveheart when it came out I was really pleased and dumbfounded that all my Scottish History came flooding back as the wife and kids bombarded me with questions. Actualy I think it's was the Froggie Queenie who whispered in Edward Longshganks ears 'Mel shagged me and I'm up the duff' well at least thats what I think she said


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:53 AM

Well, yes, I understand your point of view, Sledge. It's always difficult to portrait someone showing everything that should be shown, and not only that which is necessary for the film. In any case, the scene where More explains why even the Devil should have rights is unforgettable. Didn't mention Burton&O'Toole's Beckett in the list above.
And as for Braveheart, I very much prefer this one to his The Patriot, an attempt to make a kind of 'Braveheart revisited'.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 09:28 AM

I think you're right, MC Fat, and it was the wife of future Edward II who whispered ... but what a comical stroke!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:12 AM

Possibly Braveheart Mel Wallace visited the poor girl's French primary school in order to satisfy his unnatural lusts?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:27 AM

Pnarr Pnarr mind you she was a nice piece of frog totty and yes Jim it was a mesterstroke !!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 11:40 AM

Fascinating topic.

One aside to my friend, Kendall. While I found the rape scene in Rob Roy to be one of the most brutal movie scenes I have ever seen, I feel strongly that it belonged there and would not advocate that this subject ever be treated lightly. Men need to understand that rape is a brutal, violent act of dominance. The scene shook me to my core, and repulsed me almost to physical illness. In that, I believe that it did as it was supposed to do. Had I a son, and when the time was right, I would want him to see this scene, and try to empathize with Jessica Lange's compelling acting in the aftermath of that rape. I confess that I wept openly. All to often the word "rape" just flows off our tongues as though it were nothing more than a petty crime. It is barbaric, and a violation of the very inner core of a human being.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM

I see that the Wallace Monument at Stirling (or, the Mel Gibson Monument, as Runrig call it) is in the news today. A new Exhibition about it, or something.

Funny, I've driven past it a thousand times and never once stopped for a look.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 12:41 PM

Mick, just noticed your post. Hope you are well.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 12:47 PM

I'm with Kendal on this one... Rob Roy was a great movie... but the rape scene was completely over the top... I didn't need to see it so self-indulgantly portrayed...

Even "Flesh & Blood" handled the subject of rape better...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,Randy Duax
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:02 PM

This is actually to Big Tim---I read on an old cached thread from off of Google that you have a copy of the song "Belfast Town". I don't suppose you have any idea where I could get a copy of it, do you? I've been searching for at least a decade, ever since my only copy was ruined in a flood.

randyduax@hotmail.com if you have any ideas...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Strupag
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:21 PM

Give Mel credit for one thing! He was pretty close with the Scottish accent.
Mind you, whether they spoke like that nearly 700 years ago is another debate.
Wallace's original tounge was probably closer to Welsh.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:59 AM

Strupag, the name 'Wallace' can be drived from 'Walensis' the Latin used to designate Wales but by William Wallace's time, 'braid Scotch' was the lanuage spoken by poets like Barbour, Wyntoun and Blind Harry, more like old English which later changed with the French influence. The old Scottish language held out and is now commonly called Lallans.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,Mathieu Lacroix
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:29 PM

MacAulish ... If my memory is good MacAulish was one of the Scotland Pioneer who set scotland free to itself at very first. Maybe im wrong but i hope it's gonna help it.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Swave N. Deboner
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:04 PM

Guest Mathieu,

You're spot on. Straight from the script for the screenplay. It was indeed "MacAulish" that Campbell started shouting, with the crowd of Scotsmen joining in, shouting, "MacAulish! Macaulish! Wallace! Wallace!". But it sounded to me like they were saying, "Mac-Cue-lich." I have been unable to find any evidence that a surname such as MacAulish ever existed. I did come across one historical based website that implied that "MacCulloch" was used as a war cry. I'm not sure how MacAulish or MacCulloch would have been pronounced in those days (or even now, for that matter).      

Cheers,

SND


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:05 PM

They said "Alfred the Great" wasn't bad as far as accuracy goes.

But then that one wasn't from Hollywood, was it?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Den
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:42 PM

Frig me. Tough crowd. I have to say I would rather watch Braveheart than 99.9% of the dross that is churned out by Hollywood.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:05 PM

The thing that annoyed me most was just after he father was killed there was a scene of a piper walking against the (moonlight/setting sun/firelight) and when the young Wallace asked what he was doing one of the older gentlemen said "That's the way we say goodbye to our dead" or something similar.

Only problem was the music was from uillean pipes!!

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,hasugar
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 02:39 PM

Macaulish is gaelic but the meaning escapes me. I agree that it was some sort of war cry. It did sound like macaulich the way they chanted it. But that sounds more german and totally WRONG. The battle of stirling bridge is just funny compared to hollywoods version. Wallace and his men were on either end of this really long bridge and just kept killing everybody on one end and then cut it down and burned it. Kinda cheating and I like the Mel Gibson version better. In reference to the rape thing, grow up women have been being raped for centurys and its good that for once there was a true glimpse into how horrible men and their actions really are. It'll just make you intolerant of peoples sick humor and make you truly understand the evils of war. Go Braveheart, great movie....yeah I'm glad Mel didn't make William look like a pediphile.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: fiddler
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 04:02 AM

I love it, why does Braveheart, or really Mel Gibson with,as the girls tel me a tight little arse, engender such feelings?

No Hollywood film is accurate and allowing for the times there is a lot of folklore around even the actual incidents used in the film (out of time and context mind you).

I don't hear many scream about the legends of the bibles (old and new testaments) The writing of an oral tradition in one case thousands of years old and then living by it as a tort of law! Then the NT not committed to paper until 60 years after the death of JC (what year AD that is remains to be agreed) written in Greek and with a number of translations and sources - same stories from different routes.

So if Mel wasn't Braveheart then who was JC and was the real man the best con artist ever, a misguided headcase or really who he said he was and (we are all dommed Mr Mannering doomed - Scottish link - British Joke sorry everyone else) where do we get our fact in the films depicting him and those times?

hee hee - wickid I know - I expect you all to ignore me, or to launch in to vitiolic debate wiht absolutely no possible solution.

:-)

Andy


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Hopfolk
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:19 AM

Hollywood makes quite a lot of films from the historical Catholic point-of-view. As many Americans romanticise their Spanish / French / Irish or Scottish heritage, it inevitably leads to an identification with the "English are heretics" viewpoint.
As the vatican failed to destroy England, throughout 300-odd years of turning our neighbors against us, I don't think Hollywood will succeed.

That's not to say that the English weren't vicious buggers, just that everyone else was too: and you don't get many films made about the Scotii's pogrom against the native Hebridean Picts. Or the Irish Internal wars (Brian Boru flooded a valley to kill everyone in it). That wouldn't be palatable to the masses, now, would it.

No-one's mentioned "The Patriot", have they?
Mel Gibson takes another swipe at the British.
I'm surprised that the Romans in "The Passion" didn't have plummy English drawls.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:18 AM

The scene that you are wondering about, starts with the chant, "Macaulish." It means that "He is his father's son. Also that he is brave like his father." It was a right of passage for all Scotish men, the hear Macaulish announced, signified manhood and after the battle the men pay their respect by chanting. The chant changes however to simply, "Wallace."


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Peace
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:20 AM

"Name me a Hollywood movie that WAS 'historically accurate'...."

Dr Strangelove.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:16 AM

"hasugar" is wrong re. Stirling Bridge (tho' not as wrong as Mel, since the Bridge isn't even in the film (and the tactics seem more reminiscent of Bannocks Burn). Wallace and his soldiers were lying hidden,on the high ground about a mile from the fairly narrow bridge (capable of allowing mounted knights to pass over only two abreast), watching the English army cross. At the appropriate moment - that is, once there had crossed a proportion of the enemy which the Scots outnumbered - the Scots army raced forwards in a number of "battles" or divisions, some of them to hold the end of the bridge and thus prevent the remainder of the English army crossing, the others to set about those who had already crossed. This was a brilliant use of surprise to achieve "local superiority", which Napoleon himself might have admired.

Incidentally, I thought Gibson missed one major chance to emphasise the theme of how the Scots nobles were out for themselves rather than for any patriotic end; notice how they are all dressed in leather harness (medieval "Mad Max" biker-gear?) rather than the heraldic tabards &c sported by the English. Wouldn't it have made a strong visual point of this "class" element (okay, the term's a bit anachronistic) had there been a stronger visual similarity between these nobles and the English nobles? After all, the Bruces were "as rich in English lands as in Scottish", to quote the ould leper.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:27 AM

But Mel was after an easy target - the English. Ever noticed how all the villains in Hollywood movies these days are English, or at least European with flawless command of the English language?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,Pengin Egg
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:57 AM

Mel Gibson's worst nightmare-To be stuck in a lift with an English Jew.


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Subject: Lyr Add: STIRLING BRIG (Jim McLean)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:21 PM

I wrote this song in the 1960s and it already appears somewhere on Mudcat incorrectly but this is the corrected version.

Stirling Brig; Words Jim Mclean, Music Cam ye o'er frae France.

Doon by Stirling brig, Wallace lay a'hiding,
As the English host fae the south came riding.
Loud the river Forth 'tween them baith was roaring,
Nerra were the sides o' the brig o' Stirling.

Watching frae the woods, Wallace and the Moray,
As the English cam', wi' the Earl o' Surrey.
Ane by ane they crossed, a', the brig was birling,
As they onward cam', o'er the brig o' Stirling.

Wallace gave a shout, oot his men cam' running,
Stopped the English host, at the brig o' Stirling.
Cressingham turned round, the brig was small for turning.
Moray cut him doon on the brig o' Stirling.

A' the English men ran intil each other.
Nane could turn aboot, nane could gae much further.
Some fell o'er the side, in the Forth were drooning.
Some were left to die on the brig o' Stirling.

Surrey he was wild, couldnae ford the river,
Wished wi' all his micht that the brig was bigger.
Then he rade awa', lood the man was cursing.
Wallace and his men --- and the brig o' Stirling.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:54 PM

"But Mel was after an easy target - the English. Ever noticed how all the villains in Hollywood movies these days are English, or at least uropean with flawless command of the English language?"

Sure. Don't you Poms do worse to your very own the Welsh ( Taffs ) the Scottish ( Jocks ) and the Oirish ( Paddies )? And what about your attitude towards France and the rest? You call them Frogs, Huns, Deeagos and the rest.

Here you are foreigners so we take the p***s out of you Poms, what is wrong with that old chap?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Muttley
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:57 AM

I'd like to add a few comments (corrections) to the above.
Jack Halyard wrote that the Black Douglas died in the Holy Land.
Incorrect.

THE "Black Douglas" died at Stirling Castle. Apparently he was an arrogant, self-serving and 'superior' bugger who could offend people just by walking past their house - a mile away!
He was summoned to an audience with the King and took all of about 20 minutes to aggravate and then infuriate his monarch with his superciliousness and arrogance and following a particularly offensive comment, the King (can't recall which one - but iI'm certain it wasn't Robert the Bruce) drew his dirk and sliced him from crotch to breastbone. A coupe of nobles present joined in and also cut him down as did guards and his body was subsequently dumped from a window of the room they were in. The part of the grounds where the body landed are, to this day, called the Black Douglas Garden - it's in the official Stirling Castle guide - audio AND written.

Jim McLean is more correct in his rendition:
"The basic history in Braveheart is correct. Wallace rose up against the English invaders, his wife was murdered by the English sheriff, he beat the English at the battle of Stirling Bridge, he refused the Scottish crown and was eventually executed horribly by the English on a charge of treason which was obviously incorrect .. he was not an English subject. His 'screwing' of the wife of the homosexual King Edward the second of England and his meeting with Bruce were, I reckon, flung in for dramatic and humerous effect ...."

The truly horribly-wrong bits were that Wallace orchestrated the Battle of Stirling Bridge - he did NOT turn up later and goad the English into a fight. As well as which, in the movie, they omitted to show the BRIDGE. The bridge was the crux of the whole battle.

I'm not certain, though, Jim that Wallace was ever offered the crown. He wouldn't have taken it anyway as he was loyal to John Balliol (the crowned king in exile in France) - which was why the charge of treason was bollocks as well. He was fighting FOR his rightful king not against him - Edward was a usurper. His wife was murdered but that's not what caused his rampage / rebellion - she was murdered (executed if you are English) because she abetted Williams escape after he evaded capture following his brother-in-law's hanging - done to lure him out of hiding to comfort his wife and her grief-stricken family (which he did).

Jamis also correct re the screwing the wife of Edward II - in real life, she was only about 5 years old when William was executed !!!
He never chased English knights, confronting "The Bruce" following the disaster at Falkirk - that was Hollywood. In fact, it was Bruce who rode onto the Falkirk battlefield to extricate Wallace (forcibly) from Edward's troops. Bruce's and Comyn's forces were supposed to join Wallace at Falkirk, but Bruce arrived as the battle raged and Comyn withdrew before the battle, betraying Wallace and his army to Edward for lands in England. Comyn was eying off the Scottish crown himself

However: For Adolfo's sake - back to the film: The cry of the men after the fort was taken sounds like "McAulish" but is possibly meant to be "McCulich" (which would have been more like it for those days) BUT - - - I rather thought that the men were actually shouting "A-Wallace"
This type of 'chant' was a common one for a victorious clan or warband (or of one going INTO battle)- they would chant the leader's name prefixing it with "a". This would also make more sense as Wallace led that particular fight and his victorious men would have hailed his battle win with HIS name - "A-Wallce; A-Wallace; A-Wallace!"

BTW James - did you ever get around to translating Wallaces "trial declaration" into Scots Gaelic for me?
"How can I be guilty of treason when England is foreign to me?"

Send me a PM

Muttley (John Waters)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: billbunter
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:37 AM

Probably, this has all been said elsewhere but as kilts probably only appeared in the 1600's the Irish in the film are dressed much as the Scots would have been. The nobles, as has been pointed out, should have been dressed like the English, Edward speaking French, Bruce too. Stirling bridge was a piece of brilliant opportunism not very well shown in the film, Maybe they should have shown The English lord's body being flayed after the battle- The one thing about the film which surprised me was the death of Wallace. that was uterly underplayed and non violent compared to the reality.

Given all that, I don't think Wallace would have minded the film at all. Although he accepted the feudal system, he was still very much a people's man I think. And one thing for certain - he was heroic by anybodys standards. Anyone who could stand up to the English Army - at he time the finest in the Western world as he did, and remain steadfastly loyal to a lost cause is heroic.

His last words are all that is definitely known beyond oral tradition (I don't knock oral tradition - its often proven true)They were reported by some neutral French chronicler at the mock 'trial'. He reports that a scuffle broke out and Wallace shouted something like

'I was never a traitor. You were never my king and while the breath remains in this poor body you never shall be.'

That's a hero.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:51 AM

Coronation Street's not real?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: The Walrus
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 06:15 AM

Going back to the original qustion - I thought Wallace's battle cry was "Cracking Cheese, Grommet!"


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,MacUilin
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:32 AM

Muttley,
Methinks the Douglas you refer to was a later member of the clan and not the Sir James who fought alongside the Bruce. The name Black was allied to the Douglas name long after the death of Sir James (who did indeed fall in the Holy Land. )and a fair number is forebears were boths murderers and murderer after him. The Black Douglas you refer to was the 8th earl who fell out of favour with the King and was killed by him and his courtiers in the 1450's.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: BexMcK
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:48 PM

Actually, it was "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"

Oh, oops, wrong film.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:48 AM

And it's taken you five years to work that out? What does that make you?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM

The best bit of "Braveheart" for me is still the boxer shorts clearly visible on one of Wallce's warriors when he is upendeed.

One of the earlier posters mentioned Richard Harris's portrayal of Cromwell -as I remember, several of the quotations attributed to the great man were actually said by someone else, and at least one was said by someone on the other side.

I remember in the old "Robin Hood" series starring Richard Green, Friar Tuck walking through Sherwood Forest with a telegraph pole clearly visible in the background, and a rather nice shot of the then new M1.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

This reminds me of the sharp critiques my mother, a registered nurse of long experience, would utter while watching medical dramas like Dr. Kildaire, Ben Casey and others. I kept reminding her, "it's just a story." She would always respond, "Yes, but that doesn't mean they can't get basic technique right." Of course, she once had a doctor thrown out of the OR for "breaking scrub." No mercy.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

Jim, I sang that song in a gig in Poland recently... coupled with Cam ye o'er frae France?

Went down pretty well (a bit like the bridge itself!). Should I say the cheque is in the post?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

I once heard Mel didn't want to use too many people called Campbell (I think) as leading extras as he didn't think the name was Scottish enough.

The scene where the Scots and Irish charge and then shake hands bugs me supremely, "Och Aye!" all around.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

Dear Mutley, I will translate but you must promise me you will not tatoo it round your arm, or anywhere else for that matter!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:53 PM

Great lyrics, Jim (once again)!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:17 PM

And that was me, meself - once again.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:39 AM

the movie's based off the poem "braveheart" (hence the title), not the actualy life of wallace.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:16 PM

mcaulich is gealic for son of Wallace and for those saying the history is wrong i think you,ll find the main aspect of the film was true,it shows total disrespect and ignorance of the English and the Scottish did defeat the English in 1314 and still to this day England have never sent such a large army,some people need to realize this is a Hollywood film and has been glamorized and made into a kind of love story Wallace fought for his rights not his wife,


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