Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: meself
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 11:56 AM

Much as I like the idea of Ingonish, I seriously doubt it has any connection. Has anyone ever heard of Ingonish being shortened to 'Ingo'? It doesn't seem natural - the "o" is muted in the usual pronunciation of Ingonish: ING-guh-NISH. Furthermore, I think the writer/singer would have been trying for something that seemed a little more 'exotic'.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 10:27 AM

ingonish

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 12:27 PM

Guest: An interesting possibility. You seem quite confident - but what basis do you have for that interpretation?

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,scottish music nut
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 11:42 AM

for the record it is ingol it means england.its written in ye olde englishe so it isnt exactly easy to understand unles you know the slang

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Taconicus
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:48 PM

Thanks, Sean L. I like the idea of using Ingonish (the place on Cape Breton Island) in the lyric, regardless of what the original singer who used Ingo meant. In has Ingo in it, and it's a real place that's both on the sea and "far across the briny sea" (if you're singing in Ireland or Scotland).

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 04:30 AM

100

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:00 PM

Ingo nish again, the settlement got it's Catholic Church by 1720 (the present Church is a rebuild on a new site). The township was in French hands and called Naganiche until 1763. Naganinche might be a French version of an a Native Mikmaq place name( Mikmaq has been poorly documented and no reliable 18th century vocabulary exists). Although some suggest it could be a French corruption of Portuguese as the Portuguese had a fishing harbour there from 1525 onwards.

The area was Anglicised to Ingo-nish after the expulsion of the Acadians in 1763 and the town was rebuilt after it was destroyed by the retreating French aon the fall of Fort Louisbourg. The early settlers to Ingonish (1800s onwards) were predominantly from Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Ingo would then be a candidate for a place that exists, is remote and in the 19th century easily reached via sea not road. Any Cape Bretoners on the list who might shed some light on this?

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,Sean Laffey
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:19 PM

Ingo
Folks might it be that Dennis Smith was referring to Ingonish, a town ship and harbour on the NorthEast Coast of Cape Breton?

Ingonish is still pretty remote almost 60 years later. The population can't number much more than 1500. Lovely Church there, which hosts concerts during Celtic Colours each October.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 10:00 PM

Thanks, Tac.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 06:22 PM

Is it too much to ask for BS posts to be relegated to the BS (non-music) section? "Lyrics and Knowledge" becomes less useful otherwise (or at least harder to read through).

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:01 PM

Ingo is definately an underwater magical land where only people with mer blood (or seal tails) can go. it is a realm that exists in the water, though if you are say diving or swimming you are not in ingo, as you need to pass through abarriar. it is a place where noone has any worries or care and just drifts along everywhere :)

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,Seonaid
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:42 PM

Ingol = where ball goes, if not blocked.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,Mavis Enderby
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 02:37 PM

Ingo is a mile or so up from Skeggy.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 01:53 PM

> but it's unfair to attribute the attitude to the lyrics themselves.

And thus to the people who sing them.

The actors who play Shakespeare's Cassius don't generally want to assassinate their current political leaders, nor are they influenced to do so by memorizing Cassius's lines and living in the part through endless rehearsals.

Nor does watching "Julius Caesar" ordinarily incite members of the audience to start a revolution.

I think the notion of "subliminal influence" has been vastly exaggerated. Not that it doesn't exist. Nor should you sing what doesn't appeal to you.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 01:52 PM

"... are as black as ink."

You can check the pic for other possible typos in my transcription.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 01:46 PM

Sure, Lighter. Here are the lyrics from the 1820s broadside. Some of the verses seem possibly derived from even earlier folk traditions (e.g., the seas are deep, and I cannot … neither have I wings to fly) but it also has some very interesting differences from more modern versions, for example "My heart is lock'd up in thy breast". And yet I find modern versions lyrically superior in many respects, and therefore an improvement.

Peggy Gordon

Sweet Peggy Gordon, you are my darling,
Come set you down upon my knee,
And tell to me the very reason,
Why I am slighted so by thee.

I am deep in love, but I dare not show it,
My heart is lock'd up in thy breast;
I will plainly let the whole world know it,
A troubled mind can take no rest.

I'll lean my head on a cask of brandy,
That is my fancy I do declare;
For when I'm drinking, I'm always thinking,
How shall I gain that young lady fair.

I wish my love was one red rose,
And planted down by yonder wall,
And I myself was one drop of dew,
That in her bosom I might fall.

I wish my love and I were sailing,
As far from land as one could see;
Yes, sailing over the deepest waters,
Where love and care would not trouble me.

For the seas are deep, and I cannot wade them,
And neither have I wings to fly;
I wish I had some jolly boatman,
To ferry over my love and I.

I wish I was in Caro[p]age,
And my sweet girl along with me;
Sweet Peggy Gordon, you are my darling;
Sweet Peggy Gordon, I'd die for thee.

I wish I was in Covel's Castle,
Where the marble stones are black as ink,
Where the pretty girls they all adore me –
I'll sing no more until I drink.

Here is a pic of the original manuscript. If needed for serious research, I have a much more detailed PDF of it (6 MB).
Courtesy of New York Historical Society, 170 Central Park West New York, NY 10024.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: meself
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM

I really think that's an "attitude" that you're projecting onto those lyrics - which you are perfectly entitled to do, of course, but it's unfair to attribute the attitude to the lyrics themselves. There are many possible situations these lyrics might suggest, which is probably part of their appeal. Why, for instance, assume that Peggy Gordon hardly knows the speaker? Perhaps they have been involved in a lengthy conjugal relationship, one feature of which has been her propensity to sit on his knee and update him on the state of their affairs ....

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 12:04 PM

When I encounter a song, one thing I ask myself is, "Do I want to dignify its attitudes by singing it?" Because dignifying those attitudes help spread them. If I don't like the attitudes, I don't sing the song.

Take the first verse of this one:

O Peggy Gordon, You are my darling
Come sit you down upon my knee
And tell to me the very reason
Why I am slighted so by thee.

She isn't attracted to him, doesn't want to get involved. Yet he demands that she get cozy and justify herself. Experience tells me that anything she says will be wrong and will provoke argument and blame.

Ages ago, when I was younger, slimmer, prettier and (most of all) had a good-paying job, men I hardly knew would put me in this position. I was supposed to explain why I didn't want to date a man I hardly knew and felt no attraction for. This can be frightening, ya know?

Finally I thought of a way to handle it. I invented an imaginary boyfriend who had a prior claim. Every time, when the imaginary boyfriend was mentioned, the unwanted suitor slinked away.


Do y'all have daughters and granddaughters in my position? Tell them about the imaginary boyfriend technique.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 11:59 AM

Nice, Taconicus. Can you post the entire lyrics?

Note the similarity of the "marble stones" stanza to similar lines in "Carrickfergus."

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 11:14 AM

The earliest known published version of Peggy Gordon was a broadside printed in New York City, circa 1823, by a printing company that published lyrics of a number of popular tunes of the time.

I obtained the manuscript from the New York Historical Society, who dated its probable publication based on the known history of the publishing company and when it was located at the address printed on the broadside.

In that document, the lyrics of the two verses that begin "I wish I was in ____" gives a place name that is slightly illegible (see photo which may be viewed at this link) but seems to be Caropage, and another which is Covel's Castle. I've been unable to find a gazetteer that could identify either of those putative place names.

Accordingly, one might suppose the Indo/Ingo lyric could be a later addition to the song. Alternatively, these published lyrics could be could be of a different version, perhaps a "drinking song" version. However, it is interesting to note that this publication significantly predates any other suggested origin date for Peggy Gordon.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 06:39 AM

Ingo/e:

the spur (of a hill) covered with pasture.

Think Ing, as in INtake pasture, and hoe from hoh / heugh / haugh, hill.

according to Northumberland Place Names by Godfrey Watson.

Paws

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 05:58 AM

In go?

The way in, entrance?

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo? Paradise and Eng
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 04:02 PM

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM

Ingo/e was a hilltop mediaeval village, involved in the reiving culture, and is now a small farming community, populated years ago by the Shaftoe family and the Dixons.
Both were in the train of the Fenwicks.

Fenwick Tower is a mile or so across the fields and the mines were there, not at Ingoe.

When Fenwick lost his lands (and his head), the Dixons got lease of the tower and mines. One of their number later moved to Glasgow and became a prominent ironmaster in a dynasty that lasted till the 1960s.

Paws

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: FolkFella
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:58 AM

Peggy Gordon was in my repertoire for years and I sang 'Away in Ingoe' for a long time then changed it to 'I wish I was, a-whaling gone-O'

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,laszlo
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM

Ingoe was a mining community in Northumberland which makes a bit of sense

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:48 PM

Where is this lonesome valley then? ;)

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Taconicus
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM

River Ingol... By George, you may have something there! And "Ingol" sounds much better in the lyrics and the song than "Snettisham" would! - ljol

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:52 AM

Coincidence?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Ingol

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:50 PM

Link: Indo-Burma

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:48 PM

I always assumed it was Indo, an 18'th-19'th Century term referring to Indo-Burma, what we today call Southeast Asia, i.e., Vietnam and points west. The exotic ultimate get-away-from-it-all for Victorian era types who wanted to escape civilization. (Ever read Lord Jim?)

Of course, I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,Jenny PLEASE READ THIS
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:11 PM

Has nobody ever read the book called 'Ingo' by Helen Dunmore? I'm sure you'll find your answer there. :)

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,elli
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 01:00 AM

hey, merchild, y did u call ur self merchild???
sorry, random question.
u was going to call myself almost the same thing.....

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:38 PM

I'm JOKING, Goatfell.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:31 PM

So, uh, does ingo mean ocean or fireplace in Scotland?

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,Tooky
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:28 PM

why can't we all just leave it, and believe that Ingo is some kind of Avalon-type place, where all the singers trobles will be washed away?
Some kind of escape. cos it does say "Where love nor care ne'er troble me"
and, even if the singer was in england, they'd have trobles, and love, and is they were in the fire place, of course they'de have trobles, they'de be burning.lol

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 07:25 AM

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: goatfell - PM
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 12:05 PM

it's just a love song from Scotland and ingol is SCOTTISH for fireplace ingolnook. not a town or country it has nothing to do with the sea or the ocean or anything else when are people going to belive my self who is a SCOT or Jim McClean or anyone else that says that ingol is a fire place (ingolnook), please read the posts first.
this is my first of many posts on this subject

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM

I'm fed up writing this now for the LAST TIME INGO IN SCOTLAND MEANS A FIRE PLACE AND NOT THE OCEAN I just wish people would read my post and JIm McLean's post

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: meself
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 12:05 AM

Oh.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,merchild
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 05:46 PM

Ingo is the ocean.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 09 - 08:09 PM

In a book by Helen Dunmore, Ingo is an underwater realm, I suppose one could call it a kind of paradise. The book quotes the lyrics to oh peggy gordon several times.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 09 - 08:02 PM

I have read a book with the title Ingo, taken from the somg oh peggy gordon. I hope for the authors sake that this is really what it is.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 12:37 PM

OK I agree with you no more to be said

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 12:30 PM

It wasn't personal, Goatfell, it's just that I think the matter has been dealt with over and over again.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 11:27 AM

got the message Jim in other words shut up ok

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 11:25 AM

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: dj bass
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 10:56 AM

That'll be the fireplace on a whaler going from a mythical land to England, I expect.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: GUEST,guest, jen
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 10:14 AM

why does it matter? a fireplace, a mythical land, england...
i've been known to write a few songs, and when you need a place and don't care what it is, your mind makes things to fit. maybe he glanced at the fireplace.

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: dj bass
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 09:35 AM

Oh dear. I've been singing this song for nearly 40 years. I learned it from an Ulster woman who claimed it was an Irish song. All this time I've been singing:
I wish I was a-whaling gone
Far across the icy sea
Sailing o'er the deepest ocean
Where love nor care never parted be.

I've always argued that this one-off reference to whaling made it more likely to be a Scottish or Canadian song. Now I find I'm in the land of the Mondegreen.

Unless, of course, I've been right all this time and everyone else in the world is wrong!

dj

(btw I'm not going to change now - whaling makes more sense to me than Ingo)

Subject: RE: Peggy Gordon: where is Ingo?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 01:19 PM

Yes, I realised that, Jim!