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Origins: John Kanaka
DigiTrad:
JOHN KANAKAa
Related thread:
Lyr Req: Parody of John Kanakanaka for Ben Kenobi (4)
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Subject: 'john Kanaka' From: GUEST,rockney@erols.com Date: 14 May 00 - 06:32 PM Can anyone help me with lyrics to 'john kanaka' ? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'john Kanaka' From: Stewie Date: 14 May 00 - 06:40 PM There is a set in the DT. Just put John Kanaka in the Digitrad and Forum search box on the main forum page. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'john Kanaka' From: Peter Kasin Date: 14 May 00 - 11:00 PM Also, if you forget any lyrics while singing it, you can always borrow lyrics from other chanteys that rhyme in a similar manner. "Around Cape Horn we all must go. Around cape horn through frost and snow" is a real standby. If you're singing it with kids, there is an opportunity to make up verses using kid's names, or borrowing verses from the Cape Cod chantey, such as: "Cape Cod kids don't use no combs, they comb their hair with codfish bones." Check out that chantey. John Kanaka is a great chantey to be creative with. If you want to e mail me a personal message through this site, I would be glad to send you some verses I do with kids. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'john Kanaka' From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 14 May 00 - 11:13 PM Funny, I couldn't call it up in the Database. I did get this error message An error has occurred while processing the expression: The error occurred on (or near) line 13 of the template file But I did find the song here: http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~andrew/shanty/kanaka.html It's a Shanty Database at Memorial University in Newfoundland. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'john Kanaka' From: paddyc Date: 15 May 00 - 12:33 AM Check out Liam Clancy's website. They got lyrics to all his shantys and songs. Click HERE.
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'john Kanaka' From: The Shambles Date: 15 May 00 - 05:48 AM Andy G kindly posted the words on this thread, Narrowboat Songs Thread #11090 Message #228125 Posted By: AndyG 15-May-00 - 05:09 AM Thread Name: Narrowboat songs Subject: Lyr Add: JOHN KANAKA-NAKA^^^
Hi,
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'john Kanaka' From: GUEST,Wolfgang Date: 15 May 00 - 06:04 AM George, I could repeat your error easily. However, it is in the DT and you get it via the alphabetic list. Funny thing a database. Even funnier: Both entering 'John Kanaka' and entering 'Kanaka' in the search find me the song title in the database, but only the first search leads to the error described by George. The second search finds the song. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Jul 15 - 03:59 AM Not much on this song in the Traditional Ballad Index, but a bit: John KanakaDESCRIPTION: Shanty. Characteristic line: "John Kanaka-naka, too-li-ay." The sailors describe how they will "work tomorrow but no work today!" Some details of their trip around the horn on a Yankee ship are givenAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1926 (Eckstorm/Smyth-MinstrelsyOfMaine) KEYWORDS: sailor shanty work FOUND IN: West Indies(Barbados) US(NE) REFERENCES (7 citations): Hugill-ShantiesFromTheSevenSeas, pp. 288-289, "John Kanaka" (1 text, 1 tune) [AbEd, p.212] Kinsey-SongsOfTheSea, pp. 94-95, "John Kanaka" (1 tet, 1 tune) Fahey-Eureka-SongsThatMadeAustralia, pp. 50-51, "John Kanaka" (1 text, 1 tune) Thompson-BodyBootsAndBritches-NewYorkStateFolktales, p. 219, "(No title)" (1 short text, which lacks the chorus but has the same first line as the Maine version of this song; it is too short to classify otherwise) Eckstorm/Smyth-MinstrelsyOfMaine, p. 210, "Too-Li-Aye" (1 text) Heart-Songs, pp. 72-73, "A Yankee Ship, and a Yankee Crew" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, JONKANAK* Roud #8238 NOTES [190 words]: "Kanaka" was a term applied to Hawaiian men. Whether this song is referring to that or to "Canucks" (French-Canadians) is obscure. - PJS The term is used in Australia for Polynesians in general, especially those who worked in the Queensland sugar plantations. (It is said to mean simply "man.") I have to suspect that the song originally referred to the Polynesians, though of course northern sailors might have thought it meant Canucks. Edward E. Morris, A Dictionary of Austral English, 1898 (I use the 1972 Sydney University Press with a new foreword but no new content), p. 229, defines it as "n. and adj. a labourer from the South Sea Islands, working in Queensland sugar-plantations. The word is Hawaaian (Sandwich Islands)." The first use of the word in Hawaii is dated to 1794. The version in Heart-Songs, "A Yankee Ship, and a Yankee Crew," is implicitly lumped here by Roud. I'm far from sure I agree -- "John Kanaka" is not mentioned, and the chorus form is different -- but I'll file it here to let you think about it. But I used the Eckstorm/Smyth-MinstrelsyOfMaine version as the earliest date, because it's certainly this. - RBW Last updated in version 6.2 File: FaE050 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2023 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. Here are the Digital Tradition lyrics that we have: JOHN KANAKAa I heard, I heard, the old man say, John Kanaka-naka tu-lai-ay! Today, today is a holiday, John Kanaka-naka tu-lai-ay! Tu-lai-ay, Oh! Tu-lai-ay! John Kanaka-naka tu-lai-ay! We'll work tomorrow, but no work today, We'll work tomorrow, but no work today. We're bound away for 'Frisco Bay, We're bound away at the break of day. We're bound away around Cape Horn, We wish to Christ we'd never been born! Oh haul, oh haul, oh haul away, Oh haul away, an' make yer pay! @sailor filename[ JONKANAK TUNE FILE: JONKANAK CLICK TO PLAY BR
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Anon Date: 11 Jul 15 - 09:06 PM Pleased you have found the shanty I wrote in a previous existance. Joe lists the earliest date as 1977 but I know my alter ego was singing it in 1968 and it was not new then by any means. Perhaps Shanty Jack or Steve Gardham can be more forthcoming. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Les in Chorlton Date: 12 Jul 15 - 05:07 AM Stan Higill, Shanties ffrom the Severn Seas page 288 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Lighter Date: 12 Jul 15 - 07:15 AM Eckstorm & Smyth, Minstrelsy of Maine (1927), a short version titled "Jan Kanaganaga," coll. from Capt. James A Creighton, at sea in the 1850s and later. No tune is given. James Revell Carr discusses some aspects of the chantey (inconclusively, IMO) in Hawaiian Music in Motion (2014), pp. 73-74. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Lighter Date: 12 Jul 15 - 07:30 AM More info and a copy of Creighton's text is here: http://www.shanty.org.uk/archive_songs/john-kanaka.html I don't have a copy of Minstrelsy of Maine handy, so I can't absolutely confirm the website's information, but of special interest is that Creighton "said that the song never failed 'to bring down the house when sung by a few old salts that know how to get the funny yodel-like notes that were common in the good old times of the down-east square-rigger.'" Those "funny yodel-like notes" must have been what Hugill called "hitches." Apparently Eckstorm and Smyth's source was not the elder Creighton but one of his sons, born after 1850. According to the website, E & S collected the song in 1925 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: FreddyHeadey Date: 12 Jul 15 - 08:32 AM Gibb Schreffler writes some more about the song and Stan Hugill on his "HultonClint" YouTube page : "HultonClint" John Kanakanaka where he is also recording all the other '7 Seas' shanties : go to 'Playlists' (Also see -The Old Salt Blog- ) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Joe_F Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:10 PM Oddly, both the version in the DigiTrad and those reproduced here are missing a commonly encountered verse that happens to be my favorite: I'm New York born and New York bred.... I'm thick in the arm and thick in the head.... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Richard Mellish Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:56 PM Joe -- HOW did you include that music notation in a posting? Can any of us do it?
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Lighter Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:31 PM An unknown folkie simply adapted it from one of Hugill's other chanteys, where it's Liverpool, not New York. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: BrooklynJay Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:48 PM In the 1973 album The X-Seamen's Institute Sings at the South Street Seaport, the late Bernie Klay did these lyrics: I thought I heard the Old Man say John Kanaka-naka turai-ay Tomorrow is our sailing day John Kanaka-naka turai-ay Turai-ay, oh, turai-ay John Kanaka-naka, turai-ay I thought I heard the bos'n say John Kanaka-naka turai-ay There's work tomorrow, but no work today John Kanaka-naka turai-ay Turai-ay, oh, turai-ay John Kanaka-naka, turai-ay The bos'n says before I'm through John Kanaka-naka turai-ay You'll curse your mother for having you John Kanaka-naka turai-ay Turai-ay, oh, turai-ay John Kanaka-naka, turai-ay There's rotten meat and weevily bread John Kanaka-naka turai-ay It's pump or drown, the Old Man said John Kanaka-naka turai-ay Turai-ay, oh, turai-ay John Kanaka-naka, tulai-ay She would not steer and she would not stay John Kanaka-naka turai-ay She shipped the water night and day John Kanaka-naka turai-ay Turai-ay, oh, turai-ay John Kanaka-naka, turai-ay It's one more pull and then we'll do John Kanaka-naka turai-ay And we're the bullies to pull her through John Kanaka-naka turai-ay Turai-ay, oh, turai-ay John Kanaka-naka, turai-ay John Kanaka by the X-Seamen's Institute Jay |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: bubblyrat Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:50 AM An amalgam of "John Kanaka" , "Whip Jamboree" and "Leave Her Johnny, Leave Her" , Jay !! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Chanteyranger Date: 15 Jul 20 - 06:37 PM Our park received an instagram message asking what came first, John Kanaka or Cape Cod Girls, given similarities in some of the verses. This could be a chicken and egg question. Any information on that? My guess is that they are typical of "floating verses," going from chantey to chantey. -Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:58 PM The Wikipedia entry on Kanaka says (among other things), "Kanaka", originally referred only to native Hawaiians, from their own name for themselves, kanaka ?oiwi or kanaka maoli, in the Hawai?ian language. In the Americas in particular, native Hawaiians were the majority; but Kanakas in Australia were almost entirely Melanesian. In Australian English "kanaka" is now avoided outside of its historical context, as it has been used as an offensive term. Wikipedia goes on to say, According to the Macquarie Dictionary, the word "kanaka", which was once widely used in Australia, is now regarded in Australian English as an offensive term for a Pacific Islander. Most "Kanakas" in Australia were people from Melanesia, rather than Polynesia. The descendants of 19th century immigrants to Australia from the Pacific Islands now generally refer to themselves as "South Sea Islanders", and this is also the term used in formal and official situations. I note that I've never heard anyone in Australia sing it as "John South Sea Islander". About the use of the word "immigrants" in the preceding paragraph, Wikipedia clarifies: Most of the original labourers were recruited from the Solomon Islands, the New Hebrides (Vanuatu), and New Caledonia, though others were taken from the Loyalty Islands. Some were kidnapped ("blackbirded") or otherwise induced into long-term slavery or unfree labour. I think this lets the "recruiters" off lightly, but I claim no expertise on this. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Dave Hanson Date: 16 Jul 20 - 01:53 AM Stan Hugill used to get annoyed at people singing ' tooryai ' which is Irish, it's ' too lai ay ' Hawaian. It's an Hawaian song. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Gibb Sahib Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:31 AM Chanteyranger, The scanty amount of info *directly* about both these songs, *combined* with inferences I would make, inadequate as it may be, suggest to me that both songs came about in the second half of the 19th century in America —without being any more specific. If we want to go strictly by direct sources, we can say that Eckstorm/Smyth (1927) is the earliest for something really confirmed as what we call "John Kanaka." But that's not really helpful. To my mind, these are not static songs as we know best from folk revival performances but must be connected to other similar songs to see their evolution. For "Cape Cod Girls," I'm honestly not even sure what that is. How are we to actually distinguish it from "Bound for [South] Australia" songs? I have to include the latter songs if I'm trying to "date" "Cape Cod Girls" because the distinction between the two is, I think, only the construct or happenstance of some popular publication. But yes, floating verses. I'm not even convinced they are floating verses -- which suggests something even more fixed than I think they are. I didn't even think to compare these songs so, again, I have to think the person asking the question might have been exposed to some rendition based in some publication that happened to have incidental verses of one and incidental verses of the other these happened to share the same tropes. I'm not suggesting that verses we encounter in chanties never have any connection to the songs, but I'd say maybe less than 50% did until the folk revival froze book versions in Carbonite. My theory on "John Kanaka" is that it is based in the minstrel song "Ol' Aunt Jemima" OR ELSE both are based in the same prototype. There's nothing remotely Hawaiian about its core. There isn't even enough evidence to confirm it said "Kanaka" at all, never mind that the "kanaka" is a Hawaiian one. Yet even allowing that a surface trait in this development of the song was that it had Kanaka, that's very peripheral to what makes up the song. People won't be surprised now to hear me say I strongly suspect "South Australia/Cape Cod Girls" is also based in a minstrel song. (Think "Alabama" or "South Virginia" rather than "Australia", and rhyme "born" with "corn," rather than Cape Horn. "Bound for South Australia" is in the style of an American popular song [minstrel] is I've ever heard one.) Sorry to shoot in various directions, but it's my way of saying that these two songs are two dishes coming from the same kitchen, for all intents and purposes, about the same time. One is the pork chop with corn, mashed potatoes and gravy and the other is the steak with corn, mashed potatoes, and gravy—though sometimes the cooks substitute broccoli or French fries. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Jul 20 - 10:50 AM Good to have you back on board, Gibb. What some folks don't appear to understand is that chanties, although definitely folk songs, do not conform in many ways to other types of folk song characteristics. Only tunes and choruses can be relied on to have some sort of stability. They often defy attempts to categorise and relate to others in the canon. Many of the verses set to them in print appear to have been bowdlerised by the editors or borrowed from other sources. Whilst some of them have their own origins as chanties, many are adaptations of shore songs, and arguably the largest source, as Gibb suggests here, Minstrel songs; and slave songs. All of the historians at least agree that chanty texts were often fluid and in many cases extemporised, so treating them as stable texts is pretty pointless. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Lighter Date: 16 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM Simply to fine-tune the discussion, it appears to me that some chanteys are far more likely than others to stick to a standard development (and sometimes even standard words). I'm thinking, of course, of Ranzo, Boney, Blow the Man Down, milkmaid versions of Rio Grande, and perhaps a few others. The impression comes from jotting down framentary chanteys given in 19th and early 20th century newspaper and magazine stories that are just different enough from the book versions to suggest independent collection. This isn't to dispute the improvisational nature of much (or most) chantey singing. It's to suggest that some singers were more likely than others to memorize texts (and "floating stanzas") and repeat them more or less verbatim. Anyway, I think that's what we should suspect, given the thousands of chanteymen of varying skill and disposition, along with a natural tendency to repeat a good song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Jul 20 - 02:41 PM Hi Jon Of those listed here, and you might add Hanging Johnny, I would suggest Reuben Ranzo definitely follows that description, having a strong story relating to one individual. I would suggest though that the others having a stable text is more down to repeated copying of the same version by editors. I am highly suspicious of any chanty that uses the 'milkmaid' text in any genuine capacity. To me it is the default text when an editor couldn't print the real sung text because of its bawdy nature. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Lighter Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:43 PM No matter what you might do to make "The Milkmaid" bawdy, the formulaic dialogue would - except for a few key words - run pretty much the same way. I believe that Carpenter recorded one or two innocent versions - from seamen unlikely to have been influenced by print. Maybe everybody was laughing while they sang them - to the enjoyment of the passengers, |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: EBarnacle Date: 16 Jul 20 - 07:29 PM Bernie Klay and the X-Seamen seem to be the ones who perpetrated the Too-Rye-Ay version. They were in contact with a lot of singers and many of them seem to have considered the X authoritative on a lot of issues. This, despite the fact that Stan was a friend of Bernie's. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Gibb Sahib Date: 16 Jul 20 - 07:45 PM "some chanteys are far more likely than others to stick to a standard development." Agreed. And I can see items that may have developed semi-standard forms (i.e. before revival) -- but my emphasis would be that they developed as such, among certain groups of singers, after a point. So, if the question is of of dating the items, I wouldn't know where to draw the line between when the item was sung in more open-ended fashion and when some "closed" form became popular with some people. I think Reuben Ranzo was a "cultural trope" or whatever, like Sally Brown and Shenandoah. Evoke the Name, and your mind typically goes to singing verses related to the theme of this legend. I think "Hanging Johnny" suggests the technique of creating verses related to hanging. "Cape Cod Girls" is a "technique," too, more so than a song. You can pull out the "technique" of creating a bunch of verses related to "girls of this and that place." I suppose someone did that while in the midst of singing the "South Australia" item, and then it got "locked in" as an item in itself, through the collecting/publishing process. I suspect "Blow the Man Down" didn't originate with any/strong theme, but that it was popularized with narratives texts. So, I'm thinking of a few different phenomena for creating verse lyrics. 1. Verses with no fixity whatsoever and no attempt to relate them to the base-form (chorus). These may, in the moment, develop into #3 below. 2. Verses that one sings, not exactly, but with some consistency due to being inspired by a general field evoked by the chorus subject (the legend of Sally Brown) or some tasty word (e.g. "blow", "hang"). 3. Verses that cohere with each other -- but not necessarily with the base-form -- because they follow a technique. The mind of the improvisor goes to a formula like "X girls are ABC" or "Was you ever in XYZ", and then s/he decides to spin out subsequent verses on that formula. 4. Narrative texts that, perhaps out of boredom with a much-used base form, perhaps to satisfy the aesthetic preferences of a particular culturally-oriented group of singers, are "spliced" (Hugill's idea) onto the framework of the base-form. What is relevant about "John Kanaka," with what little little information we have, is that aside from the chorus phrase of "Kanaka" -- if it really is the Polynesian word -- there is nothing to suggest Polynesian stuff. And the verses we have from Hugill don't strike *me* as forming any particular theme. They'd be just as at home in any other performance of the majority of chanties without standardized themes. (#1, though possibly #2 if we had more info.) So, reading the Hugill verses against a background of imagining the song as a Polynesian-themed thing is, in my thinking, a big mistake. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 17 Jul 20 - 09:07 AM I know someone who has written some much better words to this tune, based on Thomas Schafernaker.... I'll ask her for the words when this Covid is over.... (for US readers, he's a well known BBC weatherman) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Lighter Date: 17 Jul 20 - 09:52 AM I concur. As for "John Kanaka," Hugill may have thought the tune (and certainly the Kanakanaka business) sounded Hawaiian or Polynesian. As mentioned above, the "Tu-lye-ee [or 'ay']" doesn't sound quite natural in English. Thus the pop change to "Tu-rye...." (Like "Toora loora loora.") |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Gibb Sahib Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:30 AM Not sure if I've posted this on Mudcat before. Thinking of writing a paper some day, maybe for Mystic Sea Symposium. The topic: "Ole Aunt Jemima" possibly being a source for what would become "John Kanaka." "Old Aunt Jemima" dates, it seems, from the early-mid-1870s, popularized by Joe Lang. Here's one printing of a version. https://books.google.com/books?id=LhVLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA15&dq=%22garden+siftin+sand% (Scroll up one page.) The verses are common ones from the minstrel and/or Black American repertoire, many of which will be recognized as "floating verses" in chanties. My ole Missus a-promised me Ole Aunt Jemima, oh I oh That when she died she'd a-sot me free Ole Aunt Jemima, oh I oh Ole Aunt Jemima.... Ole Aunt Jemima [it then adds a coda, that doesn't make it into John Kanaka's form] For me, the "slave" theme -- the talk about the missus/master in control -- parallels the dialogue with the ship's master (captain), who grants "holiday" from work. (This would be Christmas day for enslaved people.) One can see the "character" of "Aunt Jemima" filling the "slot" (paradigm) of another character, John Kanaka. (There's some harmony, I think, between "Jemima" and "Kanaka.") Perhaps, "John Kanaka" is grafted in as another stock ethnic-stereotype. Or, perhaps, there was the chanty based on this tune, "John, come tell us as we haul away" (documented by Hugill), wherein "John Kome-tell-us-as-we" morphs into "John kanaganaga" (Eckstorm/Smyth) / "John kanakanaka". And of course, the "oh i oh" are the nonsense syllables occupying the same place as "tu lay ey." But the tune shape and form are the distinctive thing here. First, the tune shape is like "John Kanaka." But the really distinctive thing is the way, after the first four lines (couplet part 1, refrain, couplet part 2, refrain) we get an unusual break into an "ad libbed" falsetto section, with a fermata (pause) -- the equivalent to the "wild," improvised "tu lay ey oh!... tu lay ey!" Footnote: "The soloist at this point in each verse should break into falsetto." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Murpholly Date: 20 Jul 20 - 06:59 AM And here are the words sof Tomasz Schahfenaker by Geoff Convery I thought I heard Peter Levy say, Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Give us the weather for the holiday Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Earn your pay oh earn you pay Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay It'll rain tomorrow it'll rain today Tomasz Schafenaker earn yhour pay And chuck it down if you go away Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Earn your pay Oh earn your pay Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Though Keely Donovan says blue sky Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay It won't be enough to keep Cleethorpes dry Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Earn your pay Oh earn your Pay Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay And don'#t you take lthat Darren Bett Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Cos it's a dead cert that it's gonna be wet Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Earn your pay oh earn your p[ay Tomazy Schafenaker earn your pay No matter what Paul Hudson may say Tomaz Schafenaker earn your pay The clouds are goona be a dark orrible grey Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Eearn your pay oh earn your pay Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Whether he wears a tie or not Tomasz Scafenaker earn your pay The weekend's never gonna be hot Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay Earn your pay oh earn your paaaaaaaaaaaay Tomasz Schafenaker earn your pay |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Geoff Convery Date: 20 Jul 20 - 08:06 PM This just goes to show that, as Steve Gardham said, the words of shanties are fluid. OK my verses are a parody but I don't believe that the sailors on windjammers treated the songs with any huge respect. If there was a way to make a joke with one I'm sure they would have done it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jul 20 - 10:26 AM I posted the entire text to this article in the Are racist, but traditional, songs OK? thread (this link goes directly to that story). I'll post the link to the National Public Radio Weekend Edition Saturday story here also: Breaking Down The Legacy Of Race In Traditional Music In America. The audio of the July 25, 2020 story will probably be available by July 26. The long story posted is probably the transcription. The term "Kanaka" is featured in the discussion. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM Beat me to it *again*, Stilly! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:06 PM Mutual admiration society notwithstanding. The problem with using the U.S. federal government's state media is the history of planet Earth isn't GI issue. In the Caribbean kanaka is "human being" (just like in Little Big Man btw) and "Kanaka" is "Hawaiian" proper. Sing it all you like, no problemo. Do mind the caps when writing it out. PS: We don't accuse Harriet Beecher Stowe of being a flaming racist or micro-aggressive even; and Paul Whiteman's last name was never a problem for West Coast jazz. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Gibb Sahib Date: 25 Jul 20 - 05:17 PM I have absolutely no objection to posting/linking the NPR article here, so please don't think I'm insuating anything about etiquette! I also shared it in one of my networks, and the "Kanaka" part is as relevant here as anywhere. What I mention it to say is what it made me think about—which is that these kids (my ageism is showing?) have NOTHING to tell us about this music. (Or do they? I'll still listen, but I don't hear it yet.) We're having a discussion about the intricate history of song origins. We use knowledge of several genres, of how performers put together them, of historical linguistics, of textual and musical analysis. And all the kids have to tell us is that, according to something they heard yesterday, "Kanaka" is a racist word. Hey, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm not likely to trust their assertion of it though being as I don't have much faith that the 13 year old that piped up to say it *really* had conversations with Hawaiians about they feel, or analyzed any historical texts for usage, etc. But sure, maybe it is.... and now here we end up, stuck on a word (the one Word... it always comes back to that with religious types)... and what happened to all the other thinking? I mean, thinking could be, say, about aesthetics—it's not limited to discussion of origin. These kids could be talking about how to make their singing sound GOOD. Like, "What's our vision of what we'd like to sound like when we sing a chanty?" Lots of stuff to contemplate. Do they get into any of the "flavor"... any way of trying to understand the ethos of the songs? Etc. Taking out "Kanaka" is NOT going to make that very ethnocentric scene of which they're a part any less ethnocentric. It's not going to become more inclusive, sorry. Other kinds of people are not going to flock to this sort of gathering of "traditional"/baby boomer revival music, because *all they're doing is recreating what appeals to their own ethnos*. They're taking what they could be learning from the music to become less ethnocentric or more broad minded or more passionate--living with life's paradoxes, within the struggles of love and hate-- and bringing it in accord with the vision of their own narrow ethnos and only cloning themselves. I know they were talking about "Old Maui," but let's say it was "John Kanaka." I can picture a Black American/Caribbean seaman, maybe he's got a Hawaiian buddy on his ship whom he really admires. Out of affection, he calls his buddy John Kanaka. He tweaks the words to a popular song, inserting "John Kanaka" in the place of "Aunt Jemima." Maybe that didn't happen, but who knows? That door into the interaction between people is closed if we simply think "Kanaka" was a "bad word" that "bad people" said, and now we "good people" know the good word. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Lighter Date: 25 Jul 20 - 06:00 PM You're absolutely right, Gibb. But don't get me started. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jul 20 - 06:14 PM Phil, your observation about the U.S. federal government's state media is entirely incorrect. The amount of federal money that goes to the public broadcasting networks is very low, like under 3%. It is PUBLIC TV and Radio, supported by viewers and listeners and well-heeled foundations. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Jul 20 - 07:55 AM I presume "kanaka" (given Polynesian consonant shifts) is cognate with Maori "tangata", which just means "man" or "human being" and has never had any racist usage in any language that I've heard of. You get "fellow" used in Australian English, mainly in the context "blackfella". What do Aborigines think about that? I don't think it's anywhere near as oppressive as American "boy", but I don't really know. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 28 Jul 20 - 08:31 AM According to the Macquarie dictionary, "blackfella" is "chiefly Aboriginal English". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:08 AM blackfellas call themselves blackfellas - Billy the Blackfella from Bourke transcribed from Billy's tapes by my friend Chris Woodland, folklorist, oral historian This is the story of Billy Gray, who called himself a blackfella from Bourke. It is the authentic speaking voice of the man. Transcribed from tapes made by his friend of 52 years, Chris Woodland, he tells of life working as a stockman, drover, fencer, taxi driver, factory labourer, water and oil driller, in Australia and South America and Indonesia. His travels and experiences gave him a deep understanding of the cultures of different peoples. In South America he found for the first time in his life that he could move freely without experiencing that feeling of being an outcast; he just blended in. Music was always an important part of Billys life, from playing and singing round the campfire to performing with a band. Many people may find some of the terms used by Billy to be politically incorrect. Those expressions are still very much in use today among the Aboriginal people. Billy was proud to be a blackfella and he knew me as a whitefella, writes Chris. 'They were, and are, accepted lingo. The couple of times he called me a white Murri (white blackfella) made me feel honoured. On several occasions over many years, when Billy was happy with some achievement he would say, Not bad for an old blackfella from Bourke, eh?' For the last few years of his life Billy lived at Tamworth. Two of his boys were living and working with him at Bourke and he thought that Tamworth would offer them better opportunities and, he thought, less disturbing influences on lads of their impressionable years. Of course Bourke was always Billys spiritual home, but he welcomed the new life at Tamworth, particularly as he was now living at the centre of his beloved country music. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 29 Jul 20 - 11:14 AM SRS: The funding of all Yank politics is just plain nasty. 'Nuff said. Federal “Government Issue” as in production & distribution. The national level Corporation for Public Broadcasting and American state/local government (public) schools are joined at the hip. Amy Goodman is not exactly an American centrist now is she? History isn't collateral damage in a culture war. It's the target of choice. RE Kanaka etymology: very similar to Sub-Saharan African and Native American cultures, before the Westerners invented a Hawaiian alphabet and written language c.1820s all Kanaka Maoli life was spoken word only. A decade either way and you'd be singing about John Tanata or Ranara or heaven only knows. Hiram Bingham I Hiram Bingham II |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jan 21 - 03:17 AM Somebody was going to sing "John Kanaka" at San Francisco's Camp Harmony this evening, and somebody objected and the song wasn't sung. The same person objected when somebody sang "Rolling Down to Old Maui" at the Mudcat Singaround a while ago. I said we were going to move on and we could discuss the matter at Mudcat, but a few people said it was horrible that I disregarded the objections. And then a few weeks ago, I read a few verses of "John Chinaman" songs to a book club I belong to, and one guy jumped all over me for reading such offensive lyrics. Heck, I was reading the lyrics to illustrate how offensive they were. Far more offensive than the use of the term "John Kanaka." But I thought I was talking to adults, who were strong enough to hear bad things without being offended. I have to say that I think while the word may be objectionable to a very few people, the matter is very obscure. These are two good songs, and I think they should be sung. We can stifle a lot of our culture if we're too careful about what we say. Makes me think of A Chat With Your Mother. Maybe we all need to ease up. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: The Sandman Date: 03 Jan 21 - 03:50 AM john kasnaka has a fine tune and is a work song, apparantly kanaka in australian english is offenasive , however i only discovered this today ,, i do not speak australian english.[ talk about descrating a language] thank god using the term or not using it is not going to make any difference in defeating racism it is slang that is indeed obscure. i suppose soon people will be objecting to nursery rhymes such as baa baa black sheep because it mmentions black sheep however Baa Baa Black Sheep is about the medieval wool tax, imposed in the 13th Century by King Edward I. Under the new rules, a third of the cost of a sack of wool went to him, another went to the church and the last to the farmer |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: r.padgett Date: 03 Jan 21 - 04:55 AM Yes of course many in fact all traditional songs are just that old and reflect current attitudes of the time ~ words and feelings of society in relation to black white, racism and standing in society were expressed in songs To start to change the song lyrics will lose the true worth of those songs ~ it did cross my mind that song sessions of shanties might need to have a warning regarding non Pc shanties could be given ~ however surely this must be clear to all those present ~ who knows! The world and attitudes of 50 to 250 years were there and new attitudes are just that ~ NEW # we cannot undo the past ~ songs made must retain their lyics BTW just seen a song on this thread that would be meaning less outside of Yorkshire ~clearly a reference to Local tv in HULL ~ and East Riding of Yorkshire ~ Peter Levy isn't known all over Yorkshire! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 04 Jan 21 - 10:05 PM Antipodean schuhplattler by the M.C. Escher enablers of culturally appropriative etymology. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GerryM Date: 05 Jan 21 - 01:56 AM An interesting word-salad, Phil, but I can't make head nor tail of it. "The Schuhplattler is a traditional style of folk dance popular in the regions of Bavaria and Tyrol." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jan 21 - 02:34 AM I've always wanted to grow up to be a Schuhplattler, ever since I first saw them in Bavaria. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: John Kanaka From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 05 Jan 21 - 03:24 AM Gerry: You're probably reading it upside down. |
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