Riverdance. Good or bad?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 05:57 AM

Why do I get the same feeling as Doug, and also the feeling that GUEST, GUEST, and GUEST is, in fact, someone well-known on this Forum?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 04:44 AM

Why do I get the feeling that GUEST, GUEST and GUEST, who came into this discussion 23 years late, is one person arguing with himself?

DC

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 03:38 AM

Parody

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 02:03 AM

Maybe it was good and bad simultaneously

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 03:20 PM

It's not a question of good or bad. It's either you liked it or you didn't. Or it didn't matter to you. At the very worst, it gave employment to a large number of Irish dancers and musicians - not just Irish, either.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 02:36 AM

Was it a taking back of entertainment that had been stultified?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Brendy
Date: 26 May 00 - 01:35 AM

I don't disagree that Riverdance is dynamic and exciting to watch, but lets not throw the baby into the bathwater here.
As Fortunato has lamented, the popularity of this 'phenomena' has almost over-excited certain people, to the detriment of the music.
It also gives a false image, to a degree, of Irish music internationally.

On the one hand, we have the likes of the 'Dubliners', where every foreign audience you play to insist that you sing at least one of 'their' songs. You have the 'Pogues', 'The Waterboys'(????), and now 'Riverdance'.
It's not that I don't like this music. I'm well into it, in fact.

However, I object to mental images of my country being conjured up in foreign imaginations which exacerbate already clichéd beliefs about us.
No less than the Hollywood presentations of us, I dislike the other images of us potrayed by our own Tourist Boards, and other commercial interests overseas.

Riverdance, The Dubliners, The Pogues, are all trademarks of Ireland plc. (or Inc.), and they feed on the rich musical heritage to earn their bucks.
'Moving Hearts', although a commercial band, tackled 'Irish fusion' in a different and less blatant way than Bill Whelan did, and in a lot of respects paved the way for the 'Riverdance' train of thought. I remember, about 1982 or thereabouts, sitting in a pub in Askeaton, Co. Limerick and a whistle player from Dublin walks in the door. He started 'McBrides', and before he could repeat the first part, I was right in behind him.
We played it through THREE times (1/4 beat breaks and all), and when we finished there was about 4 seconds silence before the place erupted. But what was played was not Trad., it was 'Trad-Jazz', or 'Irish Fusion'.

What Bill Whelan did was to expand on that and what Michéal Úi Súilabháinn was doing and 'techno' it a bit. A kind of 'Teach Music', if you will. But as represantative of Ireland and things Irish as the Dubliners and the Pogues are.

Not only dancers did this phenomena breed (and is still breeding!), Oh, sad Fortunato,but the myriad of Ringo McDonagh clones that seem to appear out of the walls these days. At least Ringo is a decent one.

I would drift more towards the "Riverdance - We love you" brigade rather than the "Come all ye..." brigade, though, if I had to choose one avenue where I would prefer to see Irish Music heading. For at least the attention of the audience is focused on the music; a much more ethereal experience altogether, considering the alternative, which often involves singing 'popular' songs that poke fun at ourselves, purely to satisfy and re-state pre-conceptions others have of us.

B.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: zenduck
Date: 25 May 00 - 09:42 PM

Oh dear, oh dear...First "scholarly" discourses on the deeper meaning of "American Pie," and now encomia for "Riverdance." What's next, the Kingston Trio as true heirs of the American ur-folk zeitgeist?

"Riverdance" is right up there with green beer and the Lucky Charms Leprechaun in my book of Irish cultural icons...I do believe I have had enough of this twee little chat club. Bye.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 25 May 00 - 07:01 PM

MBO-I know your doing hear me right now but maybe you`ll read this later - When we saw river dance the Orchestra was: Eileen Ivers, fiddle: Uliann Pipes Brain O'Brein: Keith Edge, Nikola Prova , Elis Egan Electirc and acc guitars: Des Moore Percussion ( who was without any doubt fantastic)...Desi Reynolds Bass Guitar...Eoghan O'Neil Bodhran..and Jim Higgins Keyboard and Pete Whinnett... I looked over the program as you can tell but didn't see the name you mentioned We saw Riverdance in the 1996/1997 series.... KGH

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,liz the squeak
Date: 25 May 00 - 06:00 PM

Bought the CD after seeing the show. The high point of the show for me was the hard shoe - the strike of shoe against board makes the rythmn for the music - what did they leave off the CD? Yes, not a single footfall to be heard. Great piece of music, but a bit like doing a piano concerto without a piano.....

Michael Flatley insured his legs for stupid amounts of cash and then sprained his ankle before the ink was even dry on the policy........!

Ha!

LTS

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: radriano
Date: 25 May 00 - 02:38 PM

My daughter, who is now fifteen, started taking step-dancing lessons when she was three and a half so I have had a lot of exposure to step-dancing.

I saw both the original Riverdance and Lord of the Dance and my reaction was that some of it was very good and some of it was not so good. Riverdance and LOTD took traditional step-dancing and made it into a show that certainly had a lot of energy. To make the dancing appeal to a greater audience they expanded on the tradition and added features that are not strictly a part of the tradition.

We should also keep in mind that there are two kinds of Irish dancing -- step-dancing and country dancing. While a glint of country dancing was shown in the shows the emphasis was on step-dancing.

I was also disapointed with the singing in the shows which didn't even sound particularly Irish, at least not to my ears. It's too bad they didn't use some traditional songs. I understand that the music for Riverdance was all newly composed, a feature which I disliked. While there are a lot of good recently composed tunes I felt that some of the flavor of Irish music was lost. Also, there are a lot of recently composed tunes that have entered into the tradition already. I don't see why some of those couldn't have been used.

I'm glad that Riverdance and LOTD have made dancing more popular but remember, when you make something appeal to the masses you end up compromising both music and dance to some degree

radriano

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 25 May 00 - 11:49 AM

Me thinks good musicians, but could do with less drums and keyboards. urrrgh!
ian

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 00 - 08:17 AM

"It does not have the triumphant history of many lands"(GUEST Keith) - I can't think which lands would be...

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 25 May 00 - 07:36 AM

Keith,

I agree with you and everybody else who says that the Riverdance phenomemon has done more good than harm.

It is also clear that there is a growing interest in Irish culture and Irish music and dance, and a growing self confidence among Irish people.

I think it would be a mistake, however, to attribute all of this to Riverdance. It is fundamentally to do with rising standards of education in Ireland starting in the 1960s, the economic development that has taken place since then, and the escape from Britain's shadow through membership of the EU.

I personally think the Irish soccer team's participation in the World Cup finals of 1990 and 1994 had a lot to do with raising Ireland's profile. A gutsy team playing to the maximum of its ability, and the thousands of jovial supporters who cheered their team even in defeat generated an enormous feel good factor back home and among Irish expatriates everywhere, and gave an excellent impression of the country to the millions watching abroad. The large contingent of British born players on the team and the fact the manager was English also served to remind the sometimes parochial home-based Irish that Irishness is a state of mind reaching far beyond the shores of Ireland.

Tourism from Italy doubled in the year after Ireland played there in 1990 and tourism from everywhere has increased enormously in the last ten years. And Irish pubs are spreading everywhere, including Buenos Aires as Andres/Escamillo was telling us recently.

Quite apart from the interest in Irish music going back to the 60s (starting with the Clancy Bros and the Dubliners), you also have to reckon with the success of the likes of U2, The Pogues, Sinead O'Connor et al in extending the audience for things Irish.

Riverdance certainly contributed to the growing vogue for things Irish but I'm sure you'll agree it shouldn't take all the credit.

BTW, I'm moving from Luxembourg to Brussels next week. As soon as I get a permanent e-mail address I'd like to sign on and become a member of this wonderful forum.

Cheers,

Art O'Malley

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Hilary from NZ
Date: 25 May 00 - 06:24 AM

just wanted to say that Brendan Power is a Kiwi (New Zealander) Not sure if he is still touring with riverdance - don't think so. just wanted to say he's a New Zealander.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Callie
Date: 24 May 00 - 11:22 PM

I read on the Shaker website that Michael Flatley is currently engaged in legal dispute with the Shaker community for using "Lord of the Dance" without acknowledging that it comes from "Simple Gifts" which is the most well known and loved Shaker hymn.

Callie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 24 May 00 - 07:52 PM

KGH--is Brendan Power still with the company? That dude is AWESOME!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 24 May 00 - 07:50 PM

we saw riverdance at the wang in boston.Loved it. Eilene Ivers and all the rest of the band put on one of the best live performances I have heard.the whole production was fantastic.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 24 May 00 - 05:21 PM

PREACH ON BROTHER KEITH!!!!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 24 May 00 - 04:36 PM

Riverdance good or bad? Good. Definitely.

1) The Performance: It itself is good. Several of the composed pieces were 'composed in the tradition' and pass very well for traditional tunes. In particular I really loved the tune "The Countess Cathleen". It reminds me of "Ashokan Farewell" in that you feel it must be hundreds of years old despite the fact it was recently composed. By the way I've searched for the sheet music to it in vain, if anyone knows a source I'd be greatful. The band was excellent as were the dancers and choir.

2) Legacy: I think Riverdance did for Irish culture what Ken Burns "Civil War" series did for the American civil war. I mean all I can say is that on our local PBS station, ever since the onset of Riverdance, there have been a score of Irish programs every year (usually just about 'pledgetime'!). The recent rage is a series of concerts by the "3 Irish Tenors". Not only music & dance, but historical documentaries as well have flourished. The people are not satisfied with just Riverdance.

So I guess what I am saying is that people who had never seen or heard any of Irish culture are being turned onto it. If such a person is drawn to it, then they are not going to be content to just rewind 'Riverdance' in their VCRs over and over, but are going to seek more of this stuff out and ask questions such as "What is this?", "Where does it come from?" and "Where do I go to find more?".

3) Irish Pride: I (by the way, I have Irish roots) have perceived a certain 'nationalistic pride' in the people of Ireland since this worldwide fascination with their culture began after Riverdance. Let's face it, as a nation it does not have the triumphant history of many lands and has spent much of the last 3 or 4 hundred years in a perpetual state of civil war, hardly an environment in which to build up societal institutions. To some degree it has always lacked a little self esteem, perhaps feeeling like the 'illegitimate little brother' of England . It seems now that, through the music and dance, it is saying "Yes we ARE different, we have our OWN identity, are OWN history, our OWN integrity!"

THese are just my few thoughts, YMMV, of course.

Keith

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Gervase
Date: 24 May 00 - 11:34 AM

What is good is that Riverdance, for all its Busby Berkeley-style choreography and castardised music, is inspiring a new generation to try the real thing, if only to provide hoof-fodder for the inumerable spin-off shows - witness this from the London Evening Standard:

DATE: 8 Dec 99 BYLINE RONAN MCGREEVY HEAD Irish river of dance keeps profits flowing TO PAST generations, it was as deeply unfashionable as Morris Dancing - a pastime confined to draughty civic halls in the suburbs of north London. This month, however, with the launch of two more shows in London, Irish dancing has become both sexy and lucrative. Dancing On Dangerous Ground, created by former Riverdance stars Colin Dunne and Jean Butler, opened this week at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, while next Wednesday, Spirit Of The Dance opens at Wembley. Behind them all, of course, is the all-singing, all-dancing milch cow known as Riverdance. When Riverdance returns to its Dublin home next summer, it will have clocked up a global live audience of nine million. The show's publicists estimate another 1.2 billion - a quarter of the world's population - will have seen it on television or video. Even allowing for the hype, Riverdance has made its creators, husband and wife producers John McColgan and Moya Docherty, very wealthy. The couple mortgaged their house to pay for the first Riverdance - The Show, which opened in London in May 1995. Then, Docherty was earning about £35,000 as a producer with RTE. Last year, she was estimated to have a personal fortune of £31 million and she now owns 99 per cent of Abhann Productions, the company which created Riverdance. The couple recently sold their County Meath home and are building a mansion on four and a half acres overlooking Dublin Bay. Riverdance generates more than £100 million in revenue every year. Its three troupes, Liffey, Lagan and Lee, named after Irish rivers, are booked up until 2002 at the earliest. Irish dancing's first superstar Michael Flatley was the 25th highest paid entertainer in the world two years ago, with earnings of £33 million, according to Forbes Magazine. His exit from Riverdance in October 1995 turned out to be a financial stroke of luck. His subsequent stage creation, Lord Of The Dance, now has three troupes performing around the world and a new show, Feet Of Flames, starts in Germany in March. Meanwhile, the interest in Irish dancing shows no sign of slackening; neither does the bizarre proliferation of dance troupes seeking to cash in on the phenomenon. Like so many mutating centipedes, there are at least eight other shows of comparable size to Riverdance at present on tour around the world. Here in London, where the phenomenon took shape, Irish dancing has exploded from a terminally unfashionable preserve of Irish country girls with ruddy faces and thick ankles to something that can be thought of as "cool". Ten years ago there were about 25 Irish dancing schools in London. Today, there are at least 97. With so many shows on tour, a good dancer can command between £500 and £600 a week on tour and many of them have already signed for the two new shows in London. Dancing On Dangerous Ground's Jean Butler, 28, with her flowing red hair and lissom figure, made Irish dancing something most observers thought it could never be - sexy. The pair had little difficulty in securing the backing of promoter Harvey Goldsmith before his well-publicised financial difficulties. Costing £1.5 million, Dancing On Dangerous Ground is a creative gamble. Unlike other Irish dancing shows, it seeks to tell a conventional story in a conventional way - in this case the old Celtic myth of Diarmuid and Grainne. Though it made her a star, Butler believes Riverdance has questionable artistic merit. She says Dancing On Dangerous Ground is different. A show with less lofty artistic ambitions is Spirit Of The Dance. Its instigator, Yorkshireman David King, spotted an unparalleled opportunity when Riverdance opened. "Everybody I asked told me it would not last," he said. "But I knew there was a desperate need in the provinces for a show like Riverdance when the original was based in London." Spirit Of The Dance opened to a full house at the Bristol Palladium in September 1996. There are now six troupes performing around the world and the show's base is in Reno, Nevada. Mr King is hoping the Wembley Hall show will attract 5,000 people a day for its three-and-a-half week run.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: alison
Date: 24 May 00 - 11:24 AM

Last time I heard about him he was meant to be taking up boxing........

I saw him and Jean Butler dance with the Chieftains in Belfast.. before either of them were famous..... he didn't look nearly as sexy in a kilt.......

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 24 May 00 - 11:13 AM

I understand that Michael Flatley has retired. "Feet of Flames" was the final performance of Lord of the Dance, with new music and songs (including Carrickfergus and A Maighean Mhara) in London--signifying his last performance in LoTD and professional dancing. There is a truly spooky movement at the end of the show, after the lights go out, seeming to be the end of the show, a lone spotlight appears...all alone on the middle of the empty stage is a pair of Michael's tap shoes...lonely and sad that they will never be used again...if you look closely, one of the shoes is slowly, but visibly, moving on it's own. Fans say that it's his heart in the shoes, still beating. His tap shoes may be retired, but his heart will always be there...and all this to the mornful sound of Michael playing "Whispering Wind" on his flute...spine-tingling.

--Mbo (BTW I want that leather jacket that Michael had in the final show--one side was the American flag, the other side was the Irish flag)

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 May 00 - 08:40 AM

Flatley left Riverdance, as I understand it, in a dispute over billing and choreography. Rumor has it that he didn't feel as though Jean Butler deserved equal billing with him. He travelled with the Chieftains for a bit and danced in their show. I saw him at Michigan State University during this period. His dancing was superb. He then bankrolled and choreographed "Lord of the Dance". I didn't enjoy this show as much as "River.." but it was still enjoyable to watch. He then went into a show called "Feet of Flames" which I have not seen. I understand that he recently signed a movie deal.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 May 00 - 06:51 AM

Hilary, as far as I know Michael Flatley still has his own show, Lord of the Dance. Wasn't he involved in some lawsuit or other dispute? I don't follow these things too closely.
I certainly did enjoy the Riverdance that was done as an extra feature during the Eurovision broadcast from Ireland. This was not in the context of "traditional" music! I didn't like Jean Butler and others doing a dance scene in the pub in the film "The Brylcreme Boys" as it was so anachronistic and out of place. The film takes place in the early 1940s and is about allied and Nazi Prisoners of War in Ireland. I enjoyed the film, but it is supposed to be based on real events and that dance scene made me wonder how many other distortions were in the story!

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Hilary, Hamilton, New Zealand
Date: 24 May 00 - 06:43 AM

Yes, Riverdance came to the ends of the earth, danced, conquered...spawned pools of little antipodean irish dancers here too. But can anybody tell me ...what has happened to Michael Flatley???

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 May 00 - 06:16 AM

Alison said.

"I remember the first time I saw them perform the actual "riverdance" bit itself on the Eurovision song contest....it was wonderful (or maybe I was homesick sitting here in Oz).. brought tears to the eyes, and a lump to the throat..... Jean Butler was just wonderful...... and Michael Flatley was amazing...."

.

I think this says it really….. It has been a few years now, since that night and we are all viewing it with the benefit of hindsight. There was BR (before Riverdance) and AR (after Riverdance). Now that it exists the cynics and the critics can knock it and quibble but the collective effort and vision that exploded, on that night, was indeed "just wonderful".

I don't think that it had much to do with being "homesick", I know many others also had the tears. I don't know why I was sitting through The Eurovision thing, that night but I am so glad that I was. After having three hours or so of prime TV time devoted to the sad stuff that this contest produces, there it was. Real communication, that all the watching countries with all their languages could instantly enjoy.

I had hoped that Riverdance would change popular music, like Eurovision forever. Unfortunately popular music seems to have changed Riverdance, or at least reduced it's best (folk) elements.

But they can't take that moment away. It may not have been perfect, but it was pretty damn close.

'River Of Sound' is well worth getting too.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Psaltry Psue
Date: 24 May 00 - 05:35 AM

Good! True it's not the most trad of all Irish dance but how many people would spend money to see that?

Besides - all the dancer spent years taking lessons - now they are getting paid & and that is a good thing.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 24 May 00 - 04:30 AM

Yes and he is no primadonna.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 24 May 00 - 04:28 AM

I agree about the River of Sound video - other than the music which is wonderful, there is a marvelous sequence where a dancer moves from different step dancing styles by addding syncopation. It is probably one of my favourite dance clips.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 24 May 00 - 03:34 AM

Yes Callie I have the River of Sound CD and video,there was a T.V. series of that name based on the premise that Irish music is an everchanging all encompassing thing like a river, picking up things as it flows and so as a traditional music keeps alive by this vital componant.,br> I thought It was and is a good album and be assured is far better than beta.
You were no silly sausage in buying it but I still think Riverdance is worth a listen or two>
Spider Tom

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Callie
Date: 24 May 00 - 01:42 AM

I don't watch a lot of tv, so besides hearing about it, I have missed most of the fuss.

However, a funny story: In 1995 I was in Dublin in a large record store. There were two CDs attached to headphones so you could listen before buying. There was a sign above the CDs: "Destined for International Success" and the 2 CDs were Riverdance and A River of Sound. I listened to both of them and in comparison, didn't like Riverdance at all. At that point I knew nothing about it and was taking it on face (ear) value. I bought the OTHER CD as I found it immediately appealing. Now, has anyone else in the world besides myself heard of "River of SOund"? I feel a bit like the folks who bought Beta video players. Except that the CD is fantastic!

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 May 00 - 01:29 AM

Of course it is good. I don't believe the show ever set out to be all things Irish. It simply was meant to showcase an aspect of our culture and show what is unique to this form. And through the use of guests from other cultures it also demonstrates the common ties between us all. I saw the original US tour with Butler et al and the most recent tour. I was greatly entertained both times.

With regard to Flatley, I remember him when he danced the Feisanna and gatherings around Chicago. He had an overblown sense of himself then, and it has gotten worse. Hey Michael, it's about the dance, not about you. But there is no denying the man's talent and his drive. But I believe there are many dancers out there who are his equal, and Colin Dunne is the first one that comes to mind.

Parting comment. Why does it always come down to who is more Irish?? I was raised in a household where Irish was spoken by my Grandparents and some Aunts/Uncles, and friends of them. Gatherings often included dancing the sets (a little of the heel and toe), singing the songs, and playing the tunes. I guess I qualify as someone steeped in the traditions, but I only count myself as being fortunate for that. Not more "celtic" than anyone else. I love anything that causes more people to be exposed to our wonderful heritage, and anyone who is interested. Riverdance surely qualifies in that.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 May 00 - 12:51 AM

I'm a fan of Riverdance. Irish music has gone through so many changes, with modernistic things happening to it, such as bringing in piano accompaniment since, when, the 1920's? With the Sean O'Riada arrangements in the early 60's, Johnny Moynihan bringing in the Bouzouki in the late 60's, Planxty and the Bothy Band bringing in rock rhythms in the 70's. With Riverdance, it's Irish step dancing's turn to explore the boundaries and take it to new areas. Admittedly, Riverdance doesn't have the same traditional sensibilities as those bands did, and the composed music should never be confused with the Bothies, but it is interesting to see Irish step dancing serve as a base for this show, and to see it go out and take different forms. I share the fear that Riverdance may become a standard by which the uninitiated will judge Irish music and dance performances, and that would not be a good thing. But, some people inevitably will do that, what can you do? I enjoy Riverdance for what it is. The new Broadway production, by the way, has a tremendously talented young fiddler, Athena Tergis. Haven't seen the Broadway production myself, but have heard Tergis at many a pub gig, session, and concert. Hopefully she'll do a solo recording soon.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:52 PM

Thanks Julie, again. There's part of me that doesn't want the physics, anyway, it wants the magic. And I thought I was going to get it from Flatley, and the moment I saw him enter, I knew I wasn't.

I really liked the trading taps piece, because the dancers seemed to be having fun rather than showing off, though I know the idea was exactly that.

Penny

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 May 00 - 10:02 AM

I liked it well enough. Didn't see Lord of the Pants and didn't care for Feet of Flames. Don't care much for Flatley, period. I concede he is good at what he does.... but so does he.

I prefer to watch soft-shoe dancing myself. Hard-shoe is really cool for about five minutes, like a drum solo. :)

Now, me and Mister, and probably a goodly number of you all, were Celtic when Celtic wasn't cool. So on one hand, I'm thinking, where were all you people years ago? We've been enjoying this stuff for a long time. On the other hand -- and I think someone else mentioned this already -- it did introduce Celtic music and dance to a new audience. Maybe some of those folks have been/will be inspired to do a little research and learn what it's Really All About.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 23 May 00 - 09:01 AM

I enjoyed it very much. It set out to be good entertainment and it was that in a very powerful way. I don't think there is much that has been as succesful at that level. Is it Irish traditional music...no...is it great fun yes.....

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 May 00 - 06:02 PM

I think Riverdance will be the starting point for a lot of adults and children who will eventually explore the traditional music and dance of Ireland. Just like the Kingston Trio and Peter Paul and Mary got a lot of US interested in traditional forms of American music. Many of us started there and went on to other "hipper" performers. Riverdance is not my cup of tea - I'd rather be at an Altan concert myself - but if it promotes interest in this genre then I'm all for it.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Peg
Date: 22 May 00 - 04:35 PM

saw it is Boston minus Jeanne Butler and Michael Flatley; and from seats quite far away...still it was exciting to be in the room with such skilled dancers...I love all of the music, too and found the choral stuff by Anuna just as great as the rest, and really enjoyed the Spanish dancer and the piece with the young black male dancers competing with the Irish lads...

When the company was in residence for their run in Boston I ran into some of them one night in the Burren (they had been heloing film a video apparently) and a couple of the young women were kind of trashed...it was a Monday and the set dancing was going on in the front of the bar...a couple of the dancers started dancing in a very suggestive yet drunken way, playing at being strippers it looked like (I should know :))...honestly, they were really just acting like the same drunken sluts (and perhaps they were--same trashy overdone makeup and tight clothes) you'd see in any bar any night of the week, except maybe more graceful, but then that was only two or three girls out of a company of dozens of dancers...they seemed to be having fun at any rate...it was just very odd and funny to see these dancers whom half the world idolized just cutting loose in the pub!

peg

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: JulieF
Date: 22 May 00 - 04:08 PM

Penny -its to do with moving forward and jumping up at the same time. Most of the dancers jump forward rather than continue moving and just jump up. Some very nearly get it - but only the very best seem to hover. I sad to say, given a wide science and engineering background I haven't got a clue about the science of it. It may even be an optical illusion.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 22 May 00 - 01:56 PM

Julie, I'm glad you described that hanging in the air appearance, which I saw in a snatch of a Gay Burne show on TV, and haven't seen since. As they only showed the legs at that point, I couldn't be sure if it was due to the camera tracking, or real. And I had forgotten the arms when I tried to explain it to myself, with centres of gravity and so on. The only way I could think of through physics was for arms to be raised on the up, and then lowered rapidly to lower the centre of gravity at the beginning of the down, thus allowing descent without the feet going down for a moment. And you have removed that small hold on science. Back to the drawing board.

Penny

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 22 May 00 - 11:48 AM

Fortunato - you have my sympathy. I readily admit that the sound of heavy shoe dancing not done well is dreadful. I have come back from beginners competitions with the most fightful headaches. If it happens again - try and get them to dance only to reels in light shoes ( doen't work so well for the boys) or perhaps put aside a small part of the evening for a little display. Some parents can't see any problem and i must admit sometimes its difficult to some kids to stop dancing.

All the best

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Fortunato
Date: 22 May 00 - 11:26 AM

Out our way there are parents who bring their children, fledgling step dancers, to the Irish sessions in our local pub. It seemed a grand idea for the first minute or two. Lovely, I thought, children, girls AND BOYS, learning a traditional art. The actuality was a cacophony of loud, off beat, drop beat, rhythms that completely destroyed the music of the session. Beaming parents looked on while musicians struggled to hold the tempos and hear the tunes over the tap shoes on plyboard. I have not been back and will not be. What ogre could call down these lovely children dancing? The session is ruined. Would you bring your elementry school trumpet player to a jam session?

Oh. Riverdance is obviously responsible. Grumpily yours, Fortunato.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 22 May 00 - 10:36 AM

If what you are saying is that the forms of dancing that were used did not provide enough variety for a whole show - I would be enclined to agree with you. The original 10-20 minute piece was great. We take a crowd of kids in a display troupe and do anything from 10 minutes to 40 minutes. The variety being provided with the difference in standards in the kids - no kid to much of a beginner to join in - no kid too much of an expert not to know their place in the display. Saying that the original Riverdance show did include other forms of dance such as Flamenco and Tap dancing so we could all play spot the differences and similarities. It was the later shows where this was lacking. What riverdance never did was become a show case for all forms of traditional dancing from Ireland. In fact, as an aside - many traditionalists were worried because after Riverdance there was a tendancy for displays to include dancing with hands on hips and they limited themselves to music from the shows. As I said before Riverdance was fine but it became the be all end all of things.

Ps Irish dancing does wonders for children's posture but does their knees no good at all. If they play statues ( a game where they freeze suddenly and don't move) they all drop their arms to their sides before they freeze.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:59 AM

But they didn't do it in Riverdance so what they do outside of that isn't seen. I'm not arguing that there is a different effect created when you don't use the arms but wonder if it needs to be the only effect seen. Any effect used in a song, dance or play becomes distracting if its used over and over again.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Áine
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:59 AM

Found a good brief history about Irish dance at this site. If you don't know very much about Irish dance, this will give you a good, quick overview. Enjoy!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:43 AM

I don't think I agree about the arms causing a loss of expression. If you see a really good dancer in a light shoe dance - she (or occassionally he ) will have an amazing abilty to just hang in the air. I think you wouldn't get this impression if the arms were moving. The related dance forms where the arms move such as appalacian clog give a totally different feel to the dancing. Most Irish dancers will dance SET and Celi dancing as well - so they don't loose out totally on the arm movements.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:38 AM

I think the original Riverdance (I've never seen it live, just on tape) was a pretty good show for what it was, but I would hope that the resurgence of interest in Celtic music and dance doesn't begin and end there. It was meant to be a big, dramatic spectacle, and it succeeded -- the synchronized drumming of so many pairs of feet can't help but make an impression, and the whole package was put together with a lot of skill. Like so much pop culture these days, it's meant to overwhelm, and it does.

Riverdance also represented an integration of music and dance that many people had never experienced before, in any genre. That's a good thing, in my opinion, because it opens people's ears to new possibilities. But I would hope that the "over-the-top" aspect represents a ceiling, not a floor -- that future endeavors in this vein will strive for more subtlety, rather than more bombast.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:27 AM

Thanks for that image Alan Francis. The one thing that really irritates me in the dancing is that an entire marvelously expressive portion of the body is clamped down and silenced; more it seems in the women than in the men.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: paddymac
Date: 21 May 00 - 07:32 PM

McGrath - Thank you for the clarification in re "Riverdance" role in the "contest". I had been under the impression that it was an "entrant" in the contest, but am glad to learn the nature of its role. I recollect as well that it was put together in a fairly short time period.