 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Improper Language
|
|
|
Subject: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 28 May 00 - 06:55 PM Having used Super Search to find threads dedicated to "swear words" and "bad language" the closest I can find is the thread titled "BS: British/American cultural differences" where some unsavoury verbiage is defined or alluded to. I have a fascination for foul language and it is particularly popular in Ireland so I hear and use it daily myself. May we start a thread on this subject or can someone point me to an existing thread concentrating primarily on foul words? There are many aspects to this subject relevant to folk music and I sincerely believe that it is an important discussion topic for anyone interested songs. For example, there are "polite" words and terms having very crude origins of which most are unaware. There are words many think are crude which have quite proper meanings and origins. And, of course, there are words with very different meanings from culture to culture as well as colloquialisms, meaningless to those not native to an area. Rather than assault the dignity of sensitive Mudcatters without either warning or permission, I shall refrain from actual examples until the status and properness of this potential thread is verified by Max, Susan or Joe, to whom I defer. I look forward to your adjudication. Sincerely, Frank McGrath |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: JenEllen Date: 28 May 00 - 07:04 PM Actually, I am rather fond of the colorful language I was presented with while living in the southern US. Interested in seeing where this goes. Good luck, Jen |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Champion the Wonder Horse Date: 28 May 00 - 07:09 PM Fuckin' great idea |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 28 May 00 - 07:09 PM Here's an interesting reference in several languages. Here's its English page. PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: katlaughing Date: 28 May 00 - 07:14 PM While not specifically on the subject of *colourful* language, there were a couple of ones which might be of interest, along with this one (which I think will turn into a very interesting thread.) They were: Colloquialisms - Post 'em & define 'em!, Colloquialisms II and, Good idea for a thread, Kevin. kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Champion the Wonder Horse Date: 28 May 00 - 07:20 PM Or Frank, even. Can't you not get anything fuckin right. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 28 May 00 - 07:21 PM What an excellent web site pene Azul! But, there is so much else which could be added. The subject is massive. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 28 May 00 - 07:26 PM Yeah, Frank I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps we can expand it right here... PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 May 00 - 07:26 PM Having taboo words means you can sail close to them, and have all kinds of verbal fun in the process. And you can do it for ever. Once you've broken the taboo you lose all that. No more shocks. So new taboos have to be found, and sometimes they are more likely to be damaging than the harmless old ones. We lose the sexual taboo on words words to do with sex, and find people start to flirt instead with racist taboo words.
What I find interesting is that words which are seen as a bit dodgy in one culture are seen as harmless in another. I can think of an old man who would never dream of saying the kind of words Frank McGrath was refraining from using in his opening post. In fact, he'd probably only say "bloody" in extreme situations. But he wouldn't give a bugger about saying he wouldn't give a bugger, or he'd say that someting "hurts like buggery". And yet I've come across people who would casually use other taboo words who find those expressions fairly shocking. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 28 May 00 - 07:39 PM Well said Harlow person with whom I have the honour of sharing a distinguished surname. You have given a perfect example of innocent use of improper words. "Berk" is another prime example. It is the abbreviated version of "Berkley Hunt" which is rhyming slang for that four letter word most hated by women. Great thread links kat. I shall take my time to study them carefully. They are definitely related to this subject. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: katlaughing Date: 28 May 00 - 07:48 PM Sorry, Frank. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 May 00 - 07:50 PM kat - you're gettin' your McGraths in a twist. I've never been Frank in my life.
A long way from Nenagh to Harlow, Frank. But not so far to Cahir where my parents are buried.
That's what I mean - without the taboo, where's the fun in the rhyming slang?
Round where I live there used to be a magazine called Essex Folk News. They decided that was one four letter "F word" that put people off, so it's now called efn. People refer to it as "the effin' magazine". Now you lose that kind of thing if the taboos go competely. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 May 00 - 07:51 PM "That's what I mean" - I was referring to Frank's explanation of "berk" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 28 May 00 - 07:54 PM Here's a guide to help you Avoid Foul Language. PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: SINSULL Date: 28 May 00 - 07:56 PM My father objected to my use of the word "Crap". 5 children; only girl. Until brother Pat discovered that the inventor of the flush toilet was named Crappe (and was knighted for his efforts) hence crapper and crap. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 28 May 00 - 08:05 PM It seems that Sir Thomas Crapper did not really invent the toilet. Here is a history of "The Men That Made The Water Closet." PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 28 May 00 - 08:09 PM Is it a Chair man you are by God? Another Tipperary McGrath on the 'Cat. Jasus bye, we'll take it over yet. The South Tipp. McGraths would be part of the Waterford McGrath sept. The McGrath's that own Waterford Glass. There was even a McGrath on the Waterford Hurling team which Tipp. beat today in the Munster Senior Hurling Championship. Good clean hard match it was too, with plenty of bad language used and no quarter given. But, there will be new swear words invented between this and June 11th when Tipp. meets Clare in a Munster Semi-Final. Delighted to make your acquaintance Kevin. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST, Daithi Date: 28 May 00 - 08:18 PM Confuckinggratulations |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 28 May 00 - 08:40 PM Pene is a mine of internet resources on bad language and Daithi gives a great example of the use of swear words within proper words which is unique to Ireland (I think) and particularly used in Dublin. Excefuckingllent guys. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 28 May 00 - 08:59 PM A mine? Maybe more of a sewer :^{)> I had lost my link to this one. Very nice: Dictionary of English slang and colloquialisms of the UK PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST, Daithi Date: 28 May 00 - 09:02 PM Shut to (the) fuck up = Shut up to (the) fuck. The difference is in the delivery When a teenager from West Belfast puts his face 2 inches from your face and says between his teeth: B'Fuck Aff!*you will no for certain that you presence is not solicited in his/her particular environs* a meagre attempt at phonetics |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 28 May 00 - 09:23 PM Delivery and tone are critical to real meaning when using bad language. The written words can never convey adequetly the multitude of variations of meanings that only the spoken words intone. eg Jasus, the little feckin' robins! However, my sadly missed aunt Nancy (recently deceased) when she spoke these words, it was gentle poetry. She loved Christmas cards with robins on them and she often repeated this phrase with endearing gentle innocence. Bad language is not always bad language as McHarlow pointed out. But, when used with venom, nothing can portray anger or hatered with such power. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 28 May 00 - 09:59 PM Another interesting slang dictionary: American-Australian Slang Dictionary PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Gary T Date: 29 May 00 - 03:41 AM Hi, Frank. This sort of thing--"confuckinggratulations"--is found here in the U.S., so I'm afraid it's not unique to Ireland. Of course, the real question is how/why does one choose between the form above and this--"congratufuckinglations". Personally I favor the latter, it just seems a bit smoother to me. If you really want a response from Max, Susan, or Joe, I believe it would be most efficient to click on "Help" at the top-of-page menu, and post something there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Joe Offer Date: 29 May 00 - 03:56 AM Well, to be perfectly "frank," Frank... It's an open forum, and "no holds barred" is the general rule. If you keep the thread going, you may well get Dick Greenhaus to add some scholarly (and colorful) comments on the topic. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 29 May 00 - 05:30 AM Mighty shaggin' good. Once Joe Offer gives even a slight thumbs up or even a non thumbs down, that's good enough for me. I am very interested in; A few examples follow (a) "Berk" and "crap" as given in earlier postings And what is most facinating is where these words appear in songs, old and new, and how they are used. Looking forward to your postings. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 29 May 00 - 11:52 AM Here's a short article on the etymology of "damn," "fuck" and "shit." PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 29 May 00 - 12:09 PM Frank, I have heard your explanation of burk/berk before, but with Berkshire in place of Berkley. However when I tried to follow it up I finished up with the impression (can't remember where from) that there was no substance in the tale. Is it true that "bloody" is a contraction of "by our lady"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 29 May 00 - 12:51 PM It is interesting, Pene, that last link you provided in that I remember years ago when I lived in Kerry I had the same discussion about such etymologies with a former political journalist of the Irish Times. Apparently during 'The Silly Season'; that unique time in the journalistic year when nothing of 'real' news value is around. Parliament is on it's summer break, and scandals are few. He was asked to do some research on among other things on the origins of 'fuck'. He pointed to the colonial times in India during Clive's tenure, where it was a criminal offence to 'lie with' a native Indian (they forsaw the locals making claim to British citizenship), and because squaddies are squaddies, of course there was a long list of offenders. The charge sheet was 'For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge', and if you higlight the capitals, as they were wont to do in those days, with a kind of 'Ruritanian' font, the word 'FUCK' clearly stands out. Due to the enormity of complaints against the red-blooded squaddies, they did shorten the charge to 'Fucking'. As far as I could ascertain, my journalist friend went no farther back than that. But I am from North Armagh, and although my mother would have beat me with the poker if she EVER heard me say a 'bad' word, my vocabulary was quite enhanced with such words and uses of them. And you are right, Frank, that certain regions, like any dialectic difference, will produce it's own particular variation. I have a story about my first conversation with a London guy in Oslo here which was overheard by my girlfriend and her mates who are all Norwegian. I'll post it later, when I've a bit more time on my hands. Fuckin' A1 lads! B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Peter T. Date: 29 May 00 - 02:24 PM There is a television show in North America called "Inside the Actor's Studio" which I occasionally see on public broadcasting stations, in which the host interviews famous actors and actresses, and there is a mock questionnaire given at the end -- borrowed from a French interview show -- in which one of the questions is: What is your favourite swear word? There are a number of interesting things about this: first, the station beeps out the swear word often, but sometimes not. There must be a rule that they have to work with -- Fuck is out, but bastards are in, and so on. Another interesting thing is that most everyone interviewed is somewhat shy about responding. They begin to edit in their minds, and then they go, oh what the ***** and say whatever. You can see the barricades go up and go down again. It is a very ingrained reaction. But what is really interesting is the mind of the man who thought up the questionnaire -- he must have thought that this was the best way to identify the special star as "just another human being with failings like you and me". The question invariably gets the big laugh, and everyone is slightly embarrassed. It is totally infantile, really: but it suckers everyone in. When you think of the really blasphemous language out there: "ethnic cleansing," "mutually assured destruction", "family values", "national security", it is really pathetic. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: MK Date: 29 May 00 - 03:13 PM I've always found the term "quim" (sp?) elegant. Origins? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: katlaughing Date: 29 May 00 - 03:20 PM Add "compassionate conservatism" too, Peter. One we insert around here is "Absofuckinglutely!" My ex, a native of Western Colorado, and his friends hardly ever said "shit" without adding "fuck, and piss" immediatley following it. Growing up in the oilfields and cattle country, I learned to swear with the best of them, BUT I prefer my father's style of cursing...very eloquent, hardly ever anything *worse* than a "goddamn" or "hell" and usually sounding so non-obscene, some thickheads even think he's given them a compliment. It is an art that Roger and I have discussed and believe to be dying out with my dad's generation. He was raised a gentleman, but also exposed to the rough side of ranching and oilfields. There was a time and place for it, but usually, regardless of where, he always used courteous language in a very cutting way. The first time I ever really cussed at him was when I called him up, after he'd left my mom after 38 yrs of marriage. I was 22 and very angry. I swore at him for a good thirty minutes calling him every combination I could think of, of a cocksucker, motherfucker, lying son of a whore, etc. When I stopped, he said "Are you done?" When I said I was, he continued, "Your grandfather (whom he knows I adored) would be very proud of the good Scotch (sic) blessing you just gave me!" Totally disarmed me and we made peace right then and there. To my knowledge, I am the only one of his five children who has ever felt comfortable enough using *foul* language when speaking with him. I'll see if I can find an example of one of his exhortations and post later. kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: WyoWoman Date: 29 May 00 - 04:11 PM My goodness, Pene. You are a font of hypertext links (although I just wrote "kinks" first...hmmmm?) on this subject. But I must say, on one of those sites you linked to, what with John's big balls and Mary and John so busy making the beast with two backs, etc., those two must be a very energetic couple. I was raised in such a proper manner that I actually only heard my dad say "damn" twice in my life. And that practically made my world stop spinning. If Daddy said "damn," you just KNEW the fur was about ready to fly! But, having spent the past 20 years in newsrooms great and small, I now swear like I just stepped off a freighter, and I find myself having to monitor my potty mouth for polite company. Not always easy to do in the heat of the moment... WW
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 29 May 00 - 04:15 PM Michael, apparently "quim" is of Scottish origin. That's all I can find so far. PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 May 00 - 04:23 PM "Shag" is one of those words with a double life, with perfectly polite meanings lying alongside the wicked one:
The common cormorant or shag
Another like that is the American way of spelling arse, as ass. "Kick ass" always sounds an unkind thing to do to the poor animal.
You can get it with names too - I posted a story a little time back about an English explorer called Sir Vivian Fuchs.
Soon after returning from his trans-Antarctic journey in 1958, he was given a civic reception by the mayor of Leeds.
In the speech of welcome, sopeaqking in broad Yorkshire , every time the mayor referred to the guest of honour he called him "Sir Vivian Fucks". Finally he decided to intervene. He leant forward and whispered "Actually, it's pronounced FOOKS."
The mayor looked shocked "Oh no, we can't have that sort of language here! There's ladies present!"
Waterford sept I suppose it is Frank (though we never had much to do with Waterford Glass that I heard of -. Just the stuff they sometimes put in it). But always Tipp for the hurling!
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Bert Date: 29 May 00 - 05:10 PM I always thought that quim was from the Latin quidam meaning 'thing'. Didn't the Wife of Bath say that her husband told her that she had "the finest quidam in all the land". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 29 May 00 - 07:08 PM "Quim" is a word I am very curious about, though not an improper word I think. Similar to vagina or penis it is a word from the taboo subject of sex, a word for adults. If anyone can enlighten us, great, but if not i shall research it. "Feck", the polite Irish swear word, which is used in virtually all the same contexts as "fuck" with the important exception of sex, is another for which I have no origin. And those are interesting comments about the power of polite words in cotrast to foul language. Churchill, when describing Hitler called him, "that evil man". He could have called him "that f&^%ing ba*!&¬!* sh&^(*&^& cock**&&", but the simple words he used carried even more impact that the worst four letter words imaginable. A few of my favourites used in Ireland are; The first and ladt are used outside of Ireland but are the others unique to our little isle? Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 May 00 - 07:33 PM Isn't one reason "feck" is so un-threatening a word in Ireland on account of it's an Irish word to start with anyway, meaning "thing"?
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 29 May 00 - 09:36 PM There is a mention of 'feck' in one of the verses (I can't remember the exact quote) of 'The night before Larry got stretched', but the context was 'fuck' I imagine that 'feck' is a Dublin variation, or at least an east coast expression; I can't remember coming across it in Irish. Then again, dialectic differences in the Irish language are just as wide as the are in English. I was going to tell yiz about one of my first nights in Oslo. Basically the two of us, the London guy and myself, introduced each other, shook hands, I bought the first round, and we chatted. Twenty minutes of this and you begin to get the picture Helene's friends got. Since most of the conversation was at the speed that two people well versed in the subtelties of the English language, one a Cockney, the other an Irish, city boy, would normally hold their conversation, ie. the speed of light, some of them thought we were having an argument. They thought that our faces were too close to each others' at times, especially when we were mutually lamenting some terrible catastrophe, like his wife's hairdressing bill. He was from time to time banging thumping his fist on the table, jabbing me with his finger (not on the chest, mind you. Body movements are also subtle, but that's another subject), and to all intents and purposes, to the outside eye, our conversation could have been construed as being aggressive. Far from it. I was a sort of 'shoulder to cry on' for a bit. The girls, though, were at first scared, next disgusted in varying degrees, at our foul mouthedness. That was six years ago, and I now know all her friends quite well. And they also know me, and are still amused at our (Scots, Irish, and English) penchant for using swear words as adjectives. This guy John Pepper has a wealth of information on things dialectical, and when he used to write a column in 'Ireland's Saturday Night' I would be doubled up laughing at some of the stuff he was coming out with. Other thoughts may come! B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Bill D Date: 29 May 00 - 10:52 PM supposedly a true story: Mark Twain's wife did her best to censor the more picturesque flights of her husband's language. One morning he cut himself shaving and cursed long and loud. When he stopped, his wife tried to shame him by repeating to him verbatim all the profanities that he had just uttered. Twain heard her out and then remarked, "You have the words, my dear, but I'm afraid you'll never master the tune" my father did not swear very much...but he loved to tease us by shaking his head and saying very 'seriously' "goddandruff and someofititches" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 30 May 00 - 12:30 AM Anybody remember Billy Connolly's "Getifu ye basa"? B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: katlaughing Date: 30 May 00 - 01:11 AM In the US, "shag" carpeting was all the thing in the late 60's, early 70's....plus there were "shag" hairstyles. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 30 May 00 - 01:19 AM It is also a cut of tobacco. 'Douwe Egberts', a Dutch company, sells 'Halfzware Shag', a curiously relaxing, pleasurable, kind of smoke. Odd really!! B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 30 May 00 - 06:54 AM The closest to "feck" in the Irish language is "feckim", meaning I see. "Thing" as Gaeilge is rud Bendy's conversation with his Londoner friend, is quite the norm. Many people outside these Islands do not realise how prolific profanity is in the day to day conversations of ordinary folk in Ireland and Britan. There are countless people I know who insert the word "fuckin'" at least once in every sentence they speak. If they were told to stop using the word they would not be able to speak. Austin Powers certainly popularised the word "shag" in the US but it is used over here as part of everyday speech. Despite it's sexual connotations, hag is a bit like feck in that it is not a very profane word and might occassionally pop up in "polite" company. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 30 May 00 - 08:02 AM The Cat being the Cat, I am surprised that this thread has not opened up in another direction, as indeed I believe Frank hinted it might. There is a huge family of what might be described as "teasing" songs in which vulgarities are strongly signalled and anticipated, only to be circumvented at the last moment. Such songs are a particular delight for children. I'll give them a thread of their own and see what is turned up. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Kim C Date: 30 May 00 - 12:02 PM Oh this is funny! I too am interested in word origins, naughty or otherwise. Being a good Christian girl I generally shy away from naughty speech but I do wholeheartedly believe there is a time and place for it. Dammit and Sam Hill are my favorites to use, and I generally save the F word for things like road construction (as in, they're f---ing up the road again) or when I drop something heavy on my foot. Some former coworkers got a huge laugh one day when I said something was f---ed up. Hey y'all, Kim said the F word! They found it quite amusing. Mister likes to swear a little too much and sometimes has to be scolded. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 30 May 00 - 12:36 PM I tried to eliminate the words God, Damn, Heaven, Hell, Jesus and all variations thereupon from my swearing/terms of emphasis. Try it, I dare you! I find that all I have left are scatological or anatomical or biological terms not suitable for most audiences who would have tolerated the blasphemies I was trying to avoid. All I can say now is it was a terrible day (not Godawful), it was very intersting, not damn interesting, and I say My Word! a lot. I am paralyzed, in other words, and it has been a seriously difficult battle. Also, I believe Quim is a naughty term for female genitalia, see The More Vulgar-Minded song (not sure if it's in the Trad, if not, I'll post). Also, I have read that while many different languages have different "bents" towards what is considered dirty, Hungarian is known for being the most blasphemous language... If I can find the rest of that article, I think it was in the Smithsonian or something maybe 10 years ago?? I'll post that too. All I can remember is the standard insult it listed, something about Your mama's little yellow-footed god (remember, in Hungarian, that's only one or two words). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 30 May 00 - 12:42 PM Went to the site Pene Azul posted for the multicutlurate swearer - and my company's Internet PC Police have blocked access to the French part - but not the English! Go figure... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 May 00 - 03:33 PM The thing is, the taboos only really kick in when it comes to using the words in their dictionary meaning.
Well, anyway I knew there was something rude about "thing".
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 30 May 00 - 04:45 PM Definition for the word feck from; "English as we speak it in Ireland" by Dr. P. Dwyer-Joyce, first printed 1910 and reprinted 1979, 1988, ISBN 0-86327-122-7, Wolfhound Press. Feck or fack; a spade. From the very old Irish word, fec, same sound and meaning. How did a digging impliment become a "nasty" word? Can anyone throw some more feckin' light on this? Now to find me some quim, in the literary sense of course. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,me Date: 30 May 00 - 05:20 PM on a related note... do they still put the "not for airplay" stickers on CDs sent to radio stations and... this thread brings a whole new level to the word "feckless", tho "defenestration" remains my vopf word beating "micturate" by six points. peace upon thee |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 May 00 - 05:50 PM Sometimes you need to call a feck a feck.
I can see how a digging instrument could mean something that could be viewed as being a bit dirty. Both literally, and figuratively.
But I'm not suggesting that this is the source of the English word, just that it might have fed into a feeling that it wasn't such a bad old word anyway.
I wonder whether quim might have some kind of common roots with queen, or quean? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: lamarca Date: 30 May 00 - 06:02 PM I'm from the USA, and have my own inhibitions about what I feel comfortable singing (or saying) here. I'm fairly free with "shit" and "damn", but I reserve f*ck for situations when I'm REALLY upset. I sing a fair number of English songs, though, and wonder sometimes if the language in some of them would be more objectionable to people there. Are "bloody" or "bugger" considered merely inappropriate or exceptionally crude? Are the attitudes towards these words different in England vs. Scotland vs. Ireland - I know that "bloody" is referred to as "the great Australian adjective", but it's starred out in some of my Australian song texts. Can any friends from the Other Side of English help keep me from shocking the average folkie over there? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 30 May 00 - 06:05 PM Here's a fine reference: George Carlin's 2443 Dirty Words. I broke this frame out of his website, which is something of an adventure to navigate, but pretty cool. PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Hollowfox Date: 30 May 00 - 06:24 PM In library school, many of my classes consisted of being given a list of questions, and being taught how to find the answers. One of the questions was to trace the phrase "f you" (sic) as far back as we could. We couldn't trace it back past the 1700's. The best folk etymology to come up was "Fornication Under Command of the King" (Irish response: "The English have to be told to do everything.") (I'm just passing it on as I heard it). And then there was the radio station in California that registered with the Federal Communications Commission for the call letters KCUF. The letters were approved until the advertizing started:"The Station That Does Everything Backwards". The FCC pulled the letters, of course. (No I can't verify either story, sorry) On a more scholarly note, try using the keywords "invective, cant, insult(s), slang or swearing" on a search engine. The magazine Maledicta probably has a website as well. Besides G. Legman's books, see if you can find "Wicked Words: a treasury of curses, insults, put-downs, and other formerly unprintable terms from Anglo-Saxon times to the present" (Crown Publishers, 1989) edited by Hugh Rawson. And on a lighter note, "Lost Art of Profanity" by Burgess Johnson (Bobbs-Merrill, 1948) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Diver Date: 30 May 00 - 10:09 PM Lennox Lewis' (The guy that beat the crap/fuck out of Holyfield) 'designer wear' includes the logo "Fcuk the Fear" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,me Date: 30 May 00 - 10:10 PM or we could ignore the legends and go back to high german "ficken" (sp?) profanity, however, is a high art and a dying one... tis a bit easier to say "f*** you!" rather than... "ye bog breathed miscreant sack o' guts!" but less fun peace upon thee |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: catspaw49 Date: 30 May 00 - 10:24 PM Thinking of Hollowfox's research project.....Allen Sherman in one of my favorite books, "The Rape of the A.P.E." had a chapter one word long. It was titled, "Short Chapter;Long Footnote" and the word was FUCK. The rest of the chapter (a footnote) went into a humorous history of fuck and its euphemisms......completely hilarious! Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Bill D Date: 30 May 00 - 11:42 PM thank goodness for 'supersearch'..I just remember posting this joke After reading some comments above, I suspect it is close to the truth... that entire thread is relevant to what we are discussing... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Diver Date: 31 May 00 - 12:12 AM More discussion on the subject |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Diver Date: 31 May 00 - 12:31 AM "Coitus - co-i-tus - n. -- Sexual union between a male and a female involving insertion of the penis into the vagina. [Latin, from past participle of cohre, to copulate : co-, co- + hre, to go, come; see ei- below.] —co-i-tal adj. —co-i-tal-ly adv. to have sexual, penis in vagina, intercourse: [Sexologist John Money recommends two transitive verb forms for the activity indicated by the noun "coitus" since none exist excepting for the socially unacceptable "fuck." These should be "swive," and "quim," which are obsolete early English. Men would "swive" women, whereas women would "quim" men. Both verb forms for coitus are active and are not indicative of a power imbalance relationship between the sexes engaging in this activity.]." Taken from www.sexuality.org We are in the process of turning this into a science!!! D. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 31 May 00 - 12:32 AM Nice link, Diver. Interesting that they chose "Max" as the subject in the "fuck" as a transitive verb examples. Quoting: (2a) Max fucked Betty. PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Diver Date: 31 May 00 - 12:57 AM I'm telling you, man, it gets weirder and weirder!!
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 May 00 - 07:11 AM lamarca - I think the basic rule, is, if a words are being used as meaning-free decoration or ornamentation in a sentence(eg "It's bugger all to do with me", "I'm fucked if I know"), most people don't give a shit about what words you use. (Apart from the one that "berk" is contracted rhyming slang for, as pointed out by Frank McGrath above.)
But once you start using them "in a dictionary sense", different rules apply, and you'd best go easy on them. Bill D's joke sums it up very well. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Bill D Date: 31 May 00 - 12:52 PM just because I'm still curious, I am cutting & pasting this from this thread on misunderstood words ...but it got lost in the discussion, and I never got a reply "ok, folks..especially those in England and Australia, help me out on this one....every now & then I hear someone say, in order to express absolute agreement with you... "fuckin' A" (long "A' sound)...but 30 years ago, the first time I ever heard it, it was "fuckin AYE" ..meaning 'absolutely YES'... now- am I right that the ignorant have seen 'aye' in print and could not pronounce it, and so corrupted it? Who knows anything or the origin? (sounds veddy British or Aussie, to me)
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: catspaw49 Date: 31 May 00 - 01:26 PM That's interesting Bill......I had never thought of it as English/Australian. My main association comes from hearing it from Italian-Americans or American rednecks as in "Yer fuggin A right Bubba" Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Bill D Date: 31 May 00 - 01:50 PM yep, 'spaw..that's the way it is used now...but what would 'A' mean?..whereas 'aye' makes sense...and I really heard it used that way..(do a search in Googol, and you'll fine examples both ways)...I am just betting that"A" is a corruption by those who don't know better |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 May 00 - 02:30 PM Given the way pronunciations vary, there are bound to be places where the natural way to pronounce "aye" would be "eh".
But as for the point Bill raises, I think it's at least as likely that it's a variation from saying that something is "A alright"(long A), meaning it is very alright - A being first letter, number one, top of the list, top marks at school etc. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: catspaw49 Date: 31 May 00 - 03:07 PM I'm interested here too in the idea of the origin being English. Anything perhaps merchant marine about it? I can find plenty of uses but no origins. Spaw (Fockin A well told huh?) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: sophocleese Date: 31 May 00 - 04:02 PM Well I've heard somebody say "Fucking Aces, man." Now that might have been because they heard "Fucking A" first and just made sense out of it... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Hollowfox Date: 31 May 00 - 05:12 PM I dunno, I firsh heard it in the 1960's from a Long Island college girl. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Bill D Date: 31 May 00 - 10:20 PM hmmm...I do know the term "A-ok", and I suppose it could be related after the fact...but having heard the other so long ago...maybe I'll email a couple of the WWW word mavens who might 'know' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: catspaw49 Date: 31 May 00 - 10:23 PM I'll do the hard copy thing as I'll be at a library with some excellent resources. Yeah, I know this is stupid, but we look into all kinds of other words and meanings. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Grab Date: 01 Jun 00 - 10:37 AM Frank, You might be interested in the Monty Python (Eric Idle)song, "I bet you they won't play this song on the radio". Basically, the song features a large series of sound effects for the various words removed. I'd love to do it live at the next folk club - just need a couple of assistants with a large series of sound effect generators (sirens, hooters, bells, whistles, balloons, etc, and a whoopy cushion of course). Ben Elton once did a set based on names for genitalia, when he says they'd come up with a huge list of willies, dicks, etc which were all OK to say on air. Then he asked what names for female genitalia were OK to say on air, and they could only find one acceptable one - "toot-toot". Not one I've heard of, but anyway. And if you think about it, it does seem that way - saying someone's been a bit of a dick is fairly acceptable (in fact, 'dork' has pretty much lost its meaning as an erect member), but calling someone a cunt or a pussy is not socially acceptable. And on the English-American front, I submit the word "fanny". I've seen a line somewhere that says no wonder there's so many gays in America when they don't know which bit's the fanny. ;-) Grab. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 03:10 PM Where as 'fanny' is another word for the female genatalia on this side of the pond!! As for 'A' and related superlatives; above I signed off by saying "Fuckin' A1 lads', where 'A1' is the greatest 'mark' you can give. I always reckoned that any pre or suffix attached to 'A' is all down to the way you feel at the time of expression. 'Lads', in the Munster dialect (SW Ireland) is a unisex word, as in: Chhhhrisht, lads, yere ggghreat Apologies to Frank, and other Munster men for my humble attempts at imitation. B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 03:15 PM Munster 'lads' I should have said Close one!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 01 Jun 00 - 07:34 PM Chhhhrisht, Brendy, you're shpot feckin' on bye. Gghreat shtuff. De lads will be feckin' delihead wud your ... interpreetayshun, ...bejasus. I'm shtill lookin' fur quim though. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 07:49 PM Oh, the dreaded 'quim'? Right, we're back to that one, are we? After MMario's hunt earlier on, I think my senses have been sharpened by now Off we go again!! B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 07:57 PM Frank, I haven't gone through it YET, but for anecdotal information, You HAVE to check this out!! Back later!! B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 01 Jun 00 - 08:09 PM I found this reference to a book that might hold the key to fuckin aya/a: The F Word; Jesse Scheidlower, editor; Random House; 1995; ISBN 0-679-76427-5. This book doesn't fall neatly into any of my categories. It is a complete and thorough scholarly examination, but as it deals with only one word it can hardly be put in with the dictionaries. Suffice to say that this book contains everything you wanted to know about the English language's most notorious word, but were afraid to ask. PA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jun 00 - 08:15 PM Of course you can call someone a pussy. It's just another of those words with a double meaning we were talking about earlier. Like cock. Or ass in America (loses all it's flavour if you spell it that way, I think.) Or chopper (that's a treble meaning). Does anyone know when the idea that there were some words with a fence around them came in? And do you get it in all cultures?
My impression is that up until a couple of hundred years ago if you wanted to swear you'd have had to use words related to religion. When Chaucer uses words like swive there's no sense that he's breaking any taboos. (A word that deserves to be revived.)
Noone so far has mentioned the new expressions that have been invented and/or popularised by TV (in the UK anyway) - notably "Naff off" (Porridge) and "Smegging" (Red Dwarf.) Have they made it across the Atlantic? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 08:20 PM This one , if you can read the writing, gives an interesting definition of 'quim' and 'swive' Gone to stick the nosebag on - back soon B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 08:56 PM Thanks Joe. There's even definitions of 'minge' and 'muff'- more favourites!! I don't think it's meant to be serious. Apparently it's a variation of the Welsh 'Cwm', which we all know is a glaciated hole in a mountain, right Jon? B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 08:59 PM B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 09:03 PM A bit premature on that one I'm afraid - good reading, though B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 09:06 PM Rogers Profanisaurus - the link that wasn't a link!! B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Hilary NZ Date: 01 Jun 00 - 09:27 PM Smeg's wonderful. We call people smegheads here. Because of Red Dwarf. Don't use naff off 'coz it's a Princess Ann thing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jun 00 - 09:40 PM "Cym Rhonda" will never sound the same again.
As for "Naff off" - Norman Stanley Fletcher got there well ahead of Princess Anne. I'd have thought he outranks her, even in New Zealand where perhaps you have higher regard for royalty. Or didn't "Porridge" make it as far as New Zealand? (And here's another Porridge link |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 10:02 PM People have been busy I see. When you click here, hit Ctrl+F, and type in 'quim' (IE 5 users) To be quite honest, I'm getting a bit pissed off traipsin' through these fuckin' porn sites that are adverfuckintisin' bolliksin' sex fuckin' dictionaries. I've been treated to infuckinvites to screw(there's one for yiz!!) Pamela Anderson shaggin' that whore of a husband of hers. 'Wet' fuckin' this and 'Fists...' fuckin that. Filth! That's what it fuckin' is. Absolute shite! But isn't it a God almighty fuck up altogether, when a dacent Christian fella like meself can't go happily about his business on the internet lookin' up definitions and etyfuckinmologies of harmless words like 'quim', instead of gettin bomfuckingbarded by greasy whores launchin' all sorts of shaggin' windows all over me bastardin desktop. B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Frank McGrath Date: 01 Jun 00 - 10:43 PM Brendy, tis a pure vulva, altogether. More power to yourself and your good elbow for puttin' up with all that feckactin' malarkey they do be at on them sex sites on d'internet. The fellas that makes them sites are nuttin' but a shower of vulvas. I went lookin' for the auld quim meself on d'internet and sure did't I find the same. Up to me arse in sex I was. Nuttin' but ridin'! After I spent half the night closing windows I sez,"fuck um, sure I might as well have a look". Well I never saw the like of it! I'll have to have another look to be sure I really seen what I saw. I know a girl called Fanny but God Blessings on that poor Spanish fucker called Quim. That's one right cunt of a name. Gluck for now. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 10:56 PM And don't for Jasus' sakes forget to empty the shaggin' Temporary Internet Files fuckin' folder, before the wife shaggin' sees it. Oooooooh by. That would be a right feckin' hoor altogether. B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: GUEST,Hilary NZ Date: 01 Jun 00 - 11:05 PM Well, I'm sure those last few postings will put an end to this thread. Or have people turning very nasty. Can't wait. McGrath of H - yes thank we got Porridge, but it is because of our general distaste of royalty, not our regard or it, that anything said in a horsey voice sort of looses currancy. Keep up the depravity, er, I mean, interesting etymological dissitations. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 11:09 PM "Well, I'm sure those last few postings will put an end to this thread" I should certainly hope not. Why, what's wrong with them? B. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: catspaw49 Date: 01 Jun 00 - 11:10 PM Ain't that the gospel truth? You go out hunting for some of these words and you're off into the pornzone with all the damn ads and all.......I got into a couple of sites I couldn't back out of!!! Had to shut down!!! Anybody got any idea as to how many porn pages are on the net? Worst experience was when I went looking for a neat printable calendar once. Google gave me a boatload and as I'm looking for what I need, I come across an angel calendar. My sister Connie likes angels, so I check it out. Its some pedophilia site with pictures of girls that are like 12 years old!! No age check or anything, but some longwinded crap about "art." Unbefuckinlievable. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: alison Date: 01 Jun 00 - 11:13 PM well thanks fellas for doing all that research... I'm sure it must have been a real chore..... your hands must be tired............ from closing all those windows..... hahaha they mentione "quim" a few times in "Rob Roy" slainte alison
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Pene Azul Date: 01 Jun 00 - 11:13 PM I think it's time to continue this one. Please post to BS: Improper Language II. ---Please Do Not Post More Here--- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Improper Language From: Brendy Date: 01 Jun 00 - 11:41 PM But of course, some shaggin' eejit will. B. |