Help: Have question, need answer

Subject: Have question, need answer
From: GUEST,Cindi Fountain
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 11:07 AM

Greetings one and all!

I have a question that I need answered within the next 48 hours...Some friends of mine and I are working a Ren Faire as Singing Wenches and we have 2 different shows we do...for the bawdy show, we open with "Scotland's Depraved" (aka "I Need a Sheep") and we close with "The Moose Song" (aka "I Like a Moose")...One of the merchants at the Faire is claiming that his friend and the band this friend is in (called Wild Mountain Time {or it could be Thyme for all I know}) wrote the songs and that because of that, we can't perform them...

My question to everyone here is simple...does anyone know WHO wrote these songs?? Are they public domain? I wish I had more time to wait on this, but we go on again in less than 48 hours and I need an answer before 9 A.M. Saturday...any help I can get here is deeply appreciated...if you would like to email me to make certain I get the message (which would be very swanky and karmically good!! :) ), please send it to [e-mail]...I thank you in advance...:) hugz, Cindi

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 11:25 AM

I have heard that Wild Mountain time DID write Scotland's depraved, but have never seen proof. The Moose song would be pretty easy to change enough to avoid copyright problems. BOTH TUNES (though not lyrics) are public domain as far as I know. The problem is with the lyrics.

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 11:30 AM

question though....are you doing "I need a sheep" or Scotland's Depraved? I know them as two very different songs to the same tune.

When in doubt - I would find alternate songs...

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: Peg
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:07 PM

um...I have heard both of these songs performed at pagan gatherings. I first heard the moose song at least ten years ago. If you are not directly profiting from them I would think it is not a big deal. These guys in this band do not sound like they possess the real "spirit" of Ren Faire performers if they have this sort of attitude, IMHO...

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: paddymac
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:25 PM

The lyrics are is in the data base, but there is no attribution given. Enter @bawdy in the DT search and it will come up as song #153 on the list. Hopefully, some other mudcatter will be able to tell who wrote it. But, whether you find that out or not, you are always free to come up with variations of the lyrics and copyright it yourself as a parody. The tune is public domain.

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: SDShad
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:33 PM

Well, I've never heard of the song or the band before, so I'm no help on the original question, unfortunately. But I'm a bit handy with a search engine, so if they're being a bit snarky with you, it might make you feel better to read a negative review of their song here. :-)

In all seriousness, of all the places I found through AltaVista that discussed the song, no one seemed to know who wrote it. There's a seemingly unrelated song of the same title, sung to "Four Drunken Maidens," apparently penned by "Bertram of Bearington" here.

Chris

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: SDShad
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:34 PM

Oops, that should be "their album" above, not "their song."

Chris

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: paddymac
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:41 PM

I think it's probably about ten years since I first heard the song "I Need A Sheep". If other folks out there have a notion of how long ago they first heard it, that would perhaps give you some indication of whether or not the group in question actually wrote the lyrics.

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: paddymac
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:46 PM

Somehow there are duplicate threads on this query by Cindi. Here are twp posts by MMario to the other thread. I'll leave a note there to respond to this thread.

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer From: MMario Date: 20-Jul-00 - 11:25 AM

I have heard that Wild Mountain time DID write Scotland's depraved, but have never seen proof. The Moose song would be pretty easy to change enough to avoid copyright problems. BOTH TUNES (though not lyrics) are public domain as far as I know. The problem is with the lyrics.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer From: MMario Date: 20-Jul-00 - 11:30 AM

question though....are you doing "I need a sheep" or Scotland's Depraved? I know them as two very different songs to the same tune.

When in doubt - I would find alternate songs...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: GUEST,Cindi
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:58 PM

I apologize for the duplicate posting...:/ I got booted offline after hitting the submit button so i didn't know if the post went through or not...that was MY bad and i'm sorry...

Many thanks to all of you that have helped me so far...the lyrics i have for both songs are a little bit different from the ones that are on this site, so i'm hoping they are different enough...this is just a rinky-dink little faire that just started this year and is only running 3 weekends, so I don't see what the major deal is...I know i've heard both songs for going on 10 years now, and the band in question didn't release any copyrighted versions of either song until 5 years ago...I just don't know how the laws and such work and if I just had an author or even someone that heard the songs more than 10 years ago, that would be all the evidence i need...:)

Thank you all again!!!! hugz, Cindi

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: Homeless
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 01:17 PM

Cindi - were it me (and I'm not one to back away from causing troublen when it suits me) I would continue doing the song until one the band members approached me. In my opinion, a "friend" claiming something is only hearsay.

BTW, where is the Ren Faire you'll be performing at?

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: Hollowfox
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 01:46 PM

The Moose Song was written, I believe by a gentleman from the Chicago area known in the Society for Creative Anachronism as Solomon Ben Jacob. I first encountered the lyrics around 1982 or so, both by hearing them, and seeing a single sheet of lyrics (I still have it), ascribing it to him. (tune: "Sweet Betsy From Pike, more or less"). I'll see if I can scrounge up his mundane name and address, and I'll send them tomorrow, if you need them. This cheap attempt at thievery really ticks me off. You're not going to make millions on this gig, after all. And previous recording does not forbid public performance. I'd love to know where this ren faire is, so that a few members of the Great Dark Horde (Solly's household) could have a little talk with this alleged human being. (Grumble) In Service to the Singing, Lady Tuiren de Childgrove

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: GUEST,Cindi
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:42 AM

The Ren Faire in question is the Medieval Fantasy Faire in Fremont, OH...the website addy is www.medievalfantasy.net if you would like to check it out...

For Lady Tuiren, thanks!!! I am also a member of the SCA and would love to see some of the Horde come and tell this person what's up...:) Although it might be best if MY name wasn't attached to this...:) hehehehehehe...hate to lose my extra Pennsic money...:)

And again, many thanks to those that helped me out here...:) it was MOST appreciated...:) hugz, cindi

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 02:27 AM

Cindi, you can sing the song all you want. If you want to record it, however, you must pay royalties. Not to the parodist, but to the writer of the original song "Scotland The Brave", who is Cliff Hanley. The melody is traditional. To the people who told you that you cannot sing the song, tell them to go piss up a rope. All the best. Seamus

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: GeorgeH
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 05:51 AM

Seamus, that was pretty well what I was about to say! A small addition: the matter of "royalties" on live performance are an issue for the VENUE not for the performer.

Tell 'em they should be flattered you want to promote their material for them . .

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 09:39 AM

Actually - among many of the ren-faires it is considered good manners to NOT use any song for which another ren-performer is well known.

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: Hollowfox
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 09:57 AM

OK, Cindi (and anybody else interested), here's the closest reality that I could come up with. I called up Erik the Dane last night (he's been active in the SCA since the early 1970's). He said that this is one of those songs without any one real author. A bunch of folks (including Solomon Ben Jacob and his daughter) were singing late into the night (he's an excellent vintner, so I assume that there was a beverage or two involved), and the song just communally evolved. Erik thinks that Solly's daughter is responsible for the tune, and he remembers Solly singing it in the late 1970's while carrying a (small) stuffed moose through the Pennsic campsite. I have his mundane name and address, but I don't think you need it, really. If you do, check one of your previous Pennsic booklets for the address for Maiden Mongolia (in his wife's name, same address). See you in a couple of weeks; I'm camping with the Horde this year.

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: GUEST,Cindi
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 11:37 AM

::whew:: I never thought one little question would garner so much interest...:)

In response MMario: We honestly had NO idea that anyone else did either song at faires...we've also never even heard of Wild Mountain Thyme as anything more than a traditional Irish (?) song...I've been to the 3 faires that are the closest to this one (Great Lakes, Ohio Ren and Mt. Holly, MI) and I've never seen this group at any of those faires...So I'm still pretty comfortable about doing both songs...we're just glad we don't have to change our list and try and learn 2 new songs tonight!!! :)

Seamus and GeorgeH: Thanks for the vote of confidence! And in this particular, it isn't even the band that's complaining, it's some vendor who claims to be friends WITH the band...I'm not saying he is, but he may have just worked a faire they worked and heard them singing the songs, or he may own their CD's that contain the songs...either way, I know our arrangements are different, purely based on the fact we do fewer verses of both and our words are different from every other version of both that I've managed to find...

Hollowfox: ::grins:: I'll be there for land grab (day zero) until the end of the war...we Wenches will be going on a Knowne World Tour...this will be the Tuesday of War Week (I believe...I'll make sure and let you know)...We'll make Horde Camp one of our stops...but I'll warn you now!!! We only sing for beer or money...:) hugz, cindi

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: GUEST,Cindi
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 05:14 PM

Just thought I'd let you all know that thanks to your help, we managed to convince the Faire people that we did not plagiarize anyone, nor do we owe anyone any royalties on the songs in question...:) I sincerely appreciate all your efforts and thank you from the bottom of my heart...:) Hollowfox, I'll come find you at war and we'll tip a glass together!!! Again, many thanks! hugz, cindi

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: SeanM
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 05:35 PM

As I understand the issue of performing copyright protected material, any event that has the possibility of having this happen is supposed to obtain license from the appropriate sources.

On the RenFaire circuit, this gets a bit sticky... Most small faires I'm familiar with have nothing but *wink, nudge*traditional or *wink wink* unattributable originals performed at them, and get away without the license.

I'd be surprised if a three weekend event didn't have a license for non-PD material... especially if they're booking multiple musical acts.

And what MMario said is correct... if Wild Mountain Thyme is a regular in the circuit for your neck of the woods, and the song is a 'tag' song of theirs, and especially if they're performing at the same event, it's a considerable rennie faux pas to play it at the event without their blessings. Consider it an unofficial kharmic greasing...

M

Subject: RE: Help: Have question, need answer
From: SeanM
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 05:37 PM

Or I could just read the posts a bit more carefully and determine that the event's over...

Oh well. Above still stands, even if it's no longer applicable to the event in question.

erk.

M