BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: PoohBear
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:40 AM

I wish I could stand to listen to both of the idiots long enough to form an intelligent opinion. I simply have no patience for the BS they seem to spew everytime they step in front of a microphone. It is a pity that the political process in this country has become such a circus that only those least qualified to hold office will run. Those intelligent enough to do a good job of it are way too intelligent to subject themselves to the media feeding frenzy that surrounds any candidate.

I must admit that I will probably "vote for the lesser of two evils", although at this point I am unsure who I believe that to be.

PB

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:37 AM

aaaaagggghhhhhh comparing Rachel Carson to Gore, that kind of sticks in my craw. Rachel Carson was one of the finest, bravest, most fully realized human beings this world has been privileged to know, and she did what she did at a terrible cost to herself. Gore is a politician who cobbled together a book of some truth, some half-truth, and a lot of baloney at a time when it was fashionable to be Environmental. You might as well compare Jesus to Deepak Chopra.

If your conscience say vote Nader, for god's sake DO IT. A vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush. It's a vote for Nader -- nothing more, nothing less. He may not win. He's very unlikely to win. There's probably not a chance in hell that he'll win. Those are probabilities. But here's an absolute certainty: he won't win if you don't vote for him. He won't win if you continue thinking in cliches like "a vote for X is a vote for Y", election after election after election.

For a third party (or a second party, in real opposition to the Democratrepublican party) to succeed, to become a meaninful force, somebody is going to have to VOTE FOR THE CANDIDATE. Lots of somebodies, in election after election. Why not start now?

Nothing terrible is going to happen if Dubya wins. We'll still have plenty of light bulbs and toilet paper and 140 channels on the TV and an appalling educational system and something called the "health care industry" and kids shooting kids and corporations will still get to write their own legislation, just like now, just like before. Or maybe just a little more like now, but not so you'd notice much.

And besides, if this country elects Dubya, what could be more appropriate than having a president who looks exactly like Alfred E. Newman, only not quite as bright?

There's a great Michael Moore column at grassroots.com, to find it it's easiest to go to www.michaelmoore.com and take the link, third icon from the left at the bottom of the page.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:29 AM

thosp, you are like a breath of fresh air
encouraging everyone to take time to care
And don't fret if I value all sides with a prayer
For exclusion is dual, is fuel'd despair

May the inherent powers of the universal truth animate you and bring others to your spring; with gladness...thosp!

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: thosp
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:08 AM

"say it ain't so thomas the rhymer" --

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:58 PM

O.K. the reality check is taken well. I am prone to being idealistic when the elections are drawing near, and I AM likely to change my mind later on, as the potential negative looks possible... but for the time being, shouldn't we persue our Ideals with feeling? Nader has a chance to become President, if we want him.
I think you are right in calling me on my extreme view of Gore, as he is quite acceptable really... But I will remain idealistic with my energy untill I must 'go with the flow' and blindly save the 'common good' from immanent peril...

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: thosp
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:54 PM

well as of this moment i am in the Nader camp ---- i'm so tired of voting for the lesser evil that i think may win --at this moment that would be Gore -- the only reason i voted for Clinton/Gore previously was because of Gore -- Clinton lost me early on -- this time around i want to vote for someone i really want ---- CarolC. and some of my friends say a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush -- i hope not -- i see your point -- but i think if enough people vote Green-Nader it may pull Gore (or even Bush) back to a stronger enviormental stance --well maybe not Bush -and take out the maybe --- also when Nader talks about the working class i feel that he reallycares and understands -- the others (Bush/Gore?etc.)seem to have gotten thier knowledge of the nonmillionaire set through the Hubble telescope --- so much for this rant

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:26 PM

My Psychology teacher used to joke about running for President. As a behavioural pychologist, she said her campaign slogan would be "Change Your Behaviour!" Dr. Barton..where are you???

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:20 PM

As in so much else in politics, compromise this year is needed up front and early. I respect Ralph Nader;I have voted for him several times and in years to come when I think neither of the 2-party banner carriers is tolerable, I will vote for him again.

However, idealism doesn't play well against reality. Since I distinctly do NOT want the Bush/Cheney alliance in that office, I will vote for Gore/Lieberman. Both these men have demonstrated substance and vision.

As for saying that although he wrote an important book, Gore has donenothing, surely it is up to usto act- IMO that's what education is supposed to accomplish. Would you say that Rachel Carson only wrote a book?

Ebbie

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:14 PM

What should I snap out of Thomas? Actually, I really like historic European politics...but modern stuff is like "ZZZZZZ!"

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:11 PM

I read in the paper today that the first thing Bush did upon entering office (the night of his inauguration) was to sign the execution orders for a man with an IQ of about 70. Bush has been approached by the bar on at least one occasion on this point... How serious are his chances?

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 10:55 PM

Duh! I suppose one could pose the same question about Al Gore (or Bill Clinton prior to his becoming President). I suppose one could. *BG*

I still NADER is the man! DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 07:19 PM

Kendall, the answer to your question is-

Not much.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 07:15 PM

I guess that what troubles me most is that GWB is being considered at all. Kendall, he apparently lost millions in his 'business' ventures, and repeatedly backslid...

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:57 PM

I'm with Thomas the Rhymer, vote for NADER, Mudcatters! :>) DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:44 PM

Well, THIS sure got interesting fast... Kendall, what a hoot! Mbo, this is the first thing I've seen you write that surprised me. I can't decide if I think that choosing someone who wasn't a WASP has just handed the presidency to Shrub (good one) on a platter... I fear...

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:41 PM

would someone tell me what George W has done besides sign over 100 death warrants?

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:38 PM

I love Ralph Nader. He's been one of my biggest heroes since I was a youngster.

However, as much as I hate to say this, a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM

Thanks for the escapade into party politics, Bartholomew, I feel like you have a firm grasp on the obvious, however mundane... I'm sorry, I am just weary of appologists for this system. IMHO, the overconsumption of the world's biosphere IS a much more important problem than say, doling out military contracts evenly, or patting the right backs in the right order, for the right favors, at the right time, for the wrong reasons... Gore has indisputedly fooled us with his informed approach, and his book; but these are hard (not soft) issues, and are not really compromise material. He hasn't done anything!
Perhaps it is the compromises that got us here! Some issues don't compromise well,... We are so steeped in the two party systm, that we just don't know what to do... with REAL issues. The common ground between the two main parties IS one of our biggest problems, and all the carrers that have been built upon "communicating" between the two "sides" of the same corrupt system are the cement that holds the whole rotten thing together.
end of rant.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:25 PM

I think it's absurd that we look at so many things - ethnic/gender acceptability, good looks, party affiliation, running mate - before we look at a candidate's record of public service. Nader's record as a whistle blower is commendable, but it doesn't necessarily mean he will be a good president. The president needs to be able to govern, i.e., compromise when necessary, build coalitions in support of policy decisions, lead and inspire the "body politic". Jimmy Carter showed us clearly what can happen when a man is on the right side of the issues but does not know how to negotiate the bureaucracy.

Bush is a cipher. His record shows us very little, other than that he is smart enough to find handlers who can build him into a very good candidate. As for being a man of principle who will uphold the fine Republican traditions, I cannot see it yet. Maybe it will become clearer as the campaign runs and the debates are held. I know picking Cheney is viewed by some in the GOP as proving that GWB recognizes presidential timber when he sees it. So why didn't they nominate Cheney for pres, instead of the photogenic guy with all the name recognition. If I were the republicans, I wouldn't be so quick to forget that "George Bush" is the name of a repudiated former President.

That brings us to Al Gore, who appears to be a better man than he is a candidate. His handlers have completely ruined him. I believe that if the let the man's intellect and humor show people would like him more. He is not Bill Clinton. And all those women who supported Clinton and are abandoning Gore (why? because he's not sexy??)should be ashamed. Not being Clinton should be another point in his favor. He is better than Clinton.

I don't blame him for not repudiating Clinton during the Lewinsky stuff; it would have been disloyal and horribly self-serving to add fuel to that grease fire. I think his silence once the big lie fell through was a proper response for a man in his position. Whether he is culpable in the fund raising "scandal" is an entirely different issue. It may have been wrong, it may have been stupid, but it ain't nothing but politics. And as the late mayor of Chicago Harold Washington said, "politics ain't beanbag." I can't see where this negates all those years of service. If you think that makes him a less worthy candidate than George Dubya, I have a word for you - "REPUBLICAN". IMHO

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:16 PM

Snap out of it Mbo, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:14 PM

Actually, on second thought, I WOULD have voted for McCain if people hadn't ignored him and went with Mr. TexAss himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:10 PM

Fact is, I don't really care much about politics. I wouldn't mind not voting ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:03 PM

I agree with Kendall in that there just doesn't seem to be a wealth of outstanding candidates. Now, I'm 32, so this is only my fourth Presidential election. I was 21 the first time I got to vote, in 1988. The first two times, I voted for who I thought was going to win. Some people like to do this, but I think it's a bad idea. I want to vote for the person/party who best represents Me. If everyone did that, the results would be quite a bit different from what we've been seeing.

Also, I think that the absolute best people for the job of President are just too damn smart to want it. I am not man-bashing (I don't do that, I love men)when I say that THAT's why we see so few women running for office in this country... not that so few are qualified, but that They Simply Have Too Much Sense to Want the Job. There are a lot of men who fit that bill, too. Government in the US has become such a circus that everyone figures they'll just leave it to the clowns.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:37 PM

I would vote for Nader, if I didn't think it would help Shrub et al (thanks, Spaw!) get elected.

Anyone who does NOT vote needs to get their head on right. The makeup of the laws of this country will matter a great deal in this election, as there are many appointments to the Supreme Court which will probably come up for the next president to make. That can last a very long time and effect many generations.

Also, to any who whine about politics: less than half of eligible voters voted last time. If people really want a change they need to get off their arses and vote.

If I really believed enough people would vote for Nadar, I would join them in a true voting box revolution.

Apathy is this country's greatest enemy and I, for one, am tired of the old saw, "I'd vote if, or when, we have something to vote for."

This is it, boys and girls, participate or it will keep going downhill.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:29 PM

"Politics is the art of making the inevitable seem like the result of careful planning". Quentin Crisp.

Can you imagine for one minute what kind of human CHOOSES to sit every day in a great big room listening to endless quasi-honest speeches? Boggles my mind.

People who have jobs that I admire:

Fishing guide.

Test Pilot

Gardener

Painter

Astronomer

Poet

Now THOSE are gigs with REAL power.

Rick

I do think he should have picked Oprah, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:26 PM

Nader is a realistic, thought provoking, and intellegent candidate. He knows what corruption looks like, and he is the type of person who exposes political corruption for what it is... His credentials are about as popularly based as a persosn's could be, and he is not particularly gifted at the fine art of deceit. He is the one who could change the modus opperandi of Wahington (and the world), and if we really believe that we make a difference, well then,... Vote for Nader! Green Party.
Gore just might be a poser, and Bush represents Kafka's worst nightmare...

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:24 PM

I fear for Lieberman's name recognition factor. Shrub and Chainmail have been in the public eye a good bit and once again, its a popularity contest in this day and age. Hope he brings Gore out and speaking loudly on issues....we'll see.

I look forward to the debates this time. Not that anyone actually says anything, but I think Gore's intelligence and ability to think on his feet will be a big asset. Outside of that, I fear we're in for a lot of name calling.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Jed at Work
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:16 PM

MBO - don't be foolish and let my vote count twice; once for me, and once for the one you didn't cast. Of course there is actually something worth voting for! So what if your candidate doesn't win; at least you participated. And if you don't knkow all - vote the party. EVERY VOTE MATTERS!

I like Lieberman. Seems like a good guy; reasoned, intelligent, fair minded, centered (as in balanced). Those things are much more important to me then his opinion on this issue or that.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:04 PM

I like what my priest says about the whole Presidential thing. "I hope they BOTH lose!" I will be saving my first chance to vote when there is actually something worth voting FOR.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:54 PM

With Republicans, it's man against man.
With Democrats, it's exactly the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:52 PM

If God had wanted us to vote, he/she would have given us candidates

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:48 PM

I vote Libertarian.

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:20 PM

Lieberman was okay when we lived in CT, although a tad more conservative than I liked. He did seem fair and deliberate. Have to say I didn't vote for him in the primary back when, though. I think he will liven things up a bit, for Gore and for the race.

Living in Wyoming and having been here a good share of my life, I'd say the choice of him over Cheney is like night and day, esp. for women. Cheney turns my stomach and is scary. We don't need TWO good ole' boys from the multi-million dollar side of the oil patch running the country into the ground the way Cheney and his cronies have done Wyoming.

katopinionatedasalways

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:19 PM

I haven't yet read any commentary on the pick but my take on it is that Al Gore has greatly enhanced his chances in his choice of Lieberman. Somewhat in the way that Carter was a needed option after the debacle of Nixon, perhaps the country 'needs' a clear statement of moral probity, after the confusing Clinton stance.

And I would imagine that having a Jew as a VP nominee can only help- And I say Hurray for that!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 02:44 PM

Well, it's not truly official until the candidate announces it (just like Cheney wasn't), but I guess it's becoming clearer that Gore is planning to do just that.

It certainly is about time we got a someone other than a white, Protestant male on a presidential ticket (one that has a chance of winning, anyway -- Ferraro didn't really count, because Mondale never really had a shot). However, I can't shake the feeling that the principal reason Gore picked Lieberman is that the latter was so strident in denouncing Clinton during the whole Lewinsky fiasco. In other words, what Gore really wants is someone who can be suitably sanctimonious on the evening news, thereby taking the wind out of the sails of the Clinton-bashers who hope to taint Gore by association. This phony "I'm more moral than you" posturing really turns my stomach, and I hate to see it perpetuated in any form. If it weren't for that, I'd feel pretty good about this selection.

Subject: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 01:53 PM

Could have tacked this onto the Presidential Songs thread - but I didn't - so, what do you all think of Gore picking someone not of the WASPish persuasion? I, personally, was hoping for a woman, but this is an interesting one... Anyway, just curious about y'all's thoughts on this one. And if you can bring in any music, great! All I can think of is the line from Tom Lehrer's Marines song - They've Got To Be Protected, All Their Rights Respected, Till Somebody We LIKE Can Be Elected!