'Firing' A Band Member

Subject: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,A. Noni Mouse
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:15 AM

I'm in a fairly successful folk band, and last year, we took on a very young girl to help me with vocals. In the interim, I became very good friends with her mum, as we're about the same age.

For the first three or four months, she really grew as a performer. She worked hard on her stage presence, projecting her vocals, learning her parts, but then, she begin to slip. Almost overnight, it seemed, she went from a charming pixie of a child singing and dancing around with the tip jar to a wee prima donna. She often pouts on stage, shuffles through her lyric sheets, and just behaves in an extremely unprofessional manner. Audience members have complained, ans because she is such a cutie, we've even had problems with "dirty old men."

Over the weekend, I talked with her mum, explaining that I wanted to remove Girlchild from the band. I put it to her in extremely positive language. She's quit growing musically; she doesn't like the material we're doing; band stuff is going to interfere with school, et al. Mum got teary-eyed and begged me to just let her stay. Told me that if I don't want her at a particular gig, just to not tell her about it.

Now, mum has put me in a position to lie to her child, or to completely halt the band's progress, as it has actually come to that point.

Any and all help, opinions, comments will be truly appreciated.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:18 AM

Good idea, telling mom. Maybe she will straighten the kid out. Wait & see what happens. == Johnny

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Dee45
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:27 AM

I agree. You did the right thing telling the Mom.

It's never an easy thing firing a band member. No matter how tactful and diplomatic you try to be in the process, it is something that will almost always be taken personally. More so because of your friendship with the Mom.

What's more important to you? The continued success and continuity of the band? or your friendship with the Mom? Once you've answered these questions, the decision and choice are clear cut. Bite the bullet and move on. The Mom and daughter will get over it, and you all will have learned a thing or two in the process.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Bert
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:34 AM

Wait until the next time she acts like a brat THEN tell her to 'shape up or ship out.'

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:50 AM

Horrid. Whatever you do, it's gonna be wrong and there will be hurt feelings. That's why some bands get their managers to do it.

My sympathies.

Oh, there IS one option that some bands have used. YOU quit. Then another one quits. Finally there IS no band. After about a month, you reform....sans her. Check out how Flatt and Scruggs came to be.

Rick

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,A. Noni Mouse
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:57 AM

Thanks, all. It seems, however, that since I'm the band "leader", the bad stuff always falls to me. Rick, I'm really intrigued by your suggestion. Worse comes to worse, it might be worth considering.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 12:03 PM

Ya' know Rick, I never thought of it that way....but you're right!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Willie-O
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 12:35 PM

Well, if there is some redeeming value in performing with "Girlchild", who is obviously going through a difficult growing phase, as a variation on Rick's suggestion, (and the mom's) you could make yourself two bands--one with her, one without. Different repertoires venues and audiences. Since you are already doing well with the currently-named band, the one with Girlchild in it would be the new one. Maybe you need, um, another young person to balance her prima-donna-ness.

Perhaps her extreme youth is part of the problem, if the rest of the original band are all adults and are expecting adult and professional behaviour. In our all ages fiddle orchestra the ten-year-olds act pretty much like ten-year-olds, need regular scolding and sharp glances, a lot of the adult energy goes into this, that's just the way it is. When it comes time to perform they shape up nicely.

W-O

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 12:57 PM

Miss Know-it-all (who doesn't) says:
It sounds like talking to her mother has done nothing to correct the behavior. Perhaps, you could tell her mother the child could stay as long as something is done about her behavior? (This means you'll have to explain the behavior you're referring to.) If not, "sorry, but..." Put the responsibility back on mum. (She seems to have successfully dumped it on you.) It's her responsibility to correct her daughter, not yours, and it's up to her whether or not the child stays in the band. (My guess is the child still won't be with you long.)

I agree with everything that Dee45 said. It comes down to a decision about what's more important - the band or the mother's feelings.

Another idea - her mother wants you to lie. Make mum be the one to do it. From now on, Mum is manager, and gigs must be discussed through her. (If honesty doesn't work, throw administrative layers at 'em.)

(Note: it almost sounds like her mother wants her there andthe kid doesn't want to be there.)

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 01:04 PM

It's not an easy tack, but I'd recommend utter candour with Girlchild.
Assuming you've got the rest of the band behind you, you have to see her in a neutral space and explain just why things aren't gelling as perhaps they could. Remember, however, never to paint her into a corner - always leave a 'get-out' clause in any negotiations unless you're used to dealing with small furry things with sharp teeth and little discrimination as to where they bury 'em.
However, if she's serious about her own musical development, she'll take on board the very reasonable gripes you've mentioned and - in a perfect world - she'll grown and adapt.
In an imperfect world she'll ship out wishing a thousand murrains and curses on you and your offspring to the thousandth generation thereof - but with her mother onside, maybe the murrains can be avoided or tempered... Don't even be tempted to limp along with a band that isn't working smoothly because of one eccentric cog in the machine, though - the attendant grief and angst is never worth it.
However, if the cog is indespensible, just rewrite the rules and make sure everyone agrees tacitly that 'X' or 'Y 'is a special case. Welcome to the foundation course in diplomacy!

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 01:04 PM

How old is this girl, anyway?
Have you talked to her, one-to-one, and explained in clear, non-blaming language that her actions reflect badly on the reputation this band has built up?
Have you discussed that you are concerned with the sexual attention that she is attracting?
Have you asked her what she wants out of her career in music? And where this band fits in with her goals? And what repetoire she would like to do?

(If she wants to do totally different repetoire, you might find her another band to be in. Boredom is deadly to the young, they start sulking and "acting up" all over the place.)

If you treat young people as if they have a brain, sometimes it's amazing how fast they'll grow one...

With respect,
hesperis

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 01:22 PM

I still say let Mom handle it. Since she wants the girl to stay on the band, she has probably ALREADY had a talk with her daughter. Be sure to keep Mom on your side.

A nice looking girl THAT CAN SING is a big plus for a band, and not so easy to find. You are lucky. TRY to keep her if you can! Are you sure you are doing enough of HER favorite songs? That will improve her attitude too. Don't be too quick to fire someone with such potential. You might discover she was a bigger "attraction" than you had realized. As the saying goes, It's cheaper to keep her.

If you absolutely have to let her go, try to get her into another band, so she can "move up". This way, when you get a new girl, it won't look like you DUMPED girl #1 in favor of girl #2.

-- Or, help her start HER OWN band. Anything to preserve the peace.

The great Henry Kissinger said the most important single factor in foreign policy is to act in such a way that IN THE FUTURE, it will look as though America did the right thing. Same goes for bands.

I'm not too crazy about the idea of breaking up your band and then reforming it. It won't fool anyone in the long run. Why should your other players become part of a phony conspiracy? Breaking up is always a bummer, and you might lose one or two of them along the way.

Oh well, you said comments are welcome so that's my two bits. Good Luck!

== Johnny in Oklahoma City

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,A. Noni Mouse
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 02:15 PM

Actually, all said and done, I've given her the responsability of bringing songs she wants to do into the band. Success? Nil. Out of about 100 that we perform, she has learned all the words to about five. My rule is, and we all know it, "If you want us to learn it, YOU learn it first."

Girlchild is 18 yrs old, but very immature. Lovely voice, but very untrained. She has much trouble hearing and feeeling what is right as far as intonation goes. When suggestions are made, she pouts. I have talked to her, one-on-one, and she usually cries and pulls together for the next performance, then she's back to her old tricks.

I have learned that she possesses none of the joy in music that is necessary to carry a performance. She's in it for the attention. Sadly enought, when I asked her to join, she had us all fooled.

Maybe, hesperis, your suggestion is worth another shot, then let Mum handle it!

Thanks again for so many useful hints.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 02:22 PM

Sheesh, sounds like time for the bullet there. If there's no joy, there's no bloody hope.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 02:38 PM

Thank God for Hesperis. She has it right. Ask yourself what your goal is. If you are interested in this child's developement as a performer and singer, then you need to treat her like what she is..............a member of the band. She apparently has gotten the idea that you all need her badly enough that you will tolerate her doing things that are not good for the band. I know what I would do and it would involve letting her Mother know that she is in danger of not being in the band any longer. Then I would speak to her as an equal and a member of the band. I would indicate to her what the expectations are if she, or anyone else, is going to stay in the band. If you can't do this with every member, your band will reach a certain level and never progress beyond it. NEWS FLASHIt ain't about the musicians, it is about the music!! This young lady doesn't understand this principle. You are doing her no favors by dancing around this. I would rather she hate me forever than allow her to believe she is bigger than the music and the band. You can teach her a valuable lesson, and if done right, do it without losing her. But I would rather lose a member than have that person's attitude affect the group dynamic that allows the band to continually improve.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Alice
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 02:42 PM

Sounds like an 18 year old who is still going through those teenage changes that are a constant rollercoaster. I suggest that you tell her she needs to get voice lessons and get serious about singing if she wants to continue.

Eighteen is time to grow up and accept more mature responsibility to work with a team of professionals. She is old enough for you to talk to her directly about this. When I was eighteen, I was working in the state governor's office. I was trained in protocol with diplomats, Congressmen, the Pentagon.

She is old enough to be taught. Expect more from her, and she may surprise you by rising to the occasion. This can be done diplomatically. It's better to give her a wake up call now than to enable her immaturity to continue. You can give her the direction to become a respected performer, or you can keep your mouth shut and let her stumble into becoming someone with a reputation for being difficult. She needs constructive direction.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 02:49 PM

Just a point here.........

Would you mind coming back and letting us know how all of this plays out?

Spaw

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 03:01 PM

My 2 cents... Fire her.. no 2 ways about it... But tell her that it's nothing personal, it's just a business decision and that the band has decided that they no longer want her business...

It's been my experience that pretty girls who can sing are 1) worse than high maintenance wives, and 2) are a dime a dozen... How much younger is she than the average band member?

I'll have to admit, I also have issues with 'singers' who can't do anything else... in any band I'm front man for, you have to do more than just sing... any yutz with a face can sing...

Fire her... She'll wine and suck and throw a tantrum and really, who cares? You and the band will feel better...

:-|

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Dave Swan
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 03:31 PM

I guess it's partly about whether you have the time and inclination to be a parent/teacher/mentor to an eighteen year old who proving to be a liability

or

whether you want to get on with making music with your band.

Put another way, is it more important to protect her from reality or to protect the band from her influence?

Of course it's easy to be rational from this remove, but to me it looks like a case of pull chain to flush and move on.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 03:58 PM

I've had to be the "bearer of bad news" for our group, and I can tell you it's not fun. But, somebody has to do it. Girlchild is not a child anymore, and you do her a dis-service by letting her think she is. In a grown-up world, she has to act like a grown-up, which includes fulfilling her obligations to the group. As the Big guy said, it's about the music, but I would add it's also about respect for your band-mates.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowbetter
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 04:40 PM

I think Jeri has made a really good point about the mum really being the one who wants Girlchild in the band. I really hate to see that. It pretty much works out to parents being cool through their kids. If this singer doesn't want to do this for herself, her heart will never be in it. And it's not fair to her, either. You see this in all sorts of creative arts. Mothers pushing their reluctant step-dancing daughters on the stage coz they "look so cute" in their knotwork dresses. Kids who WILL take piano lessons and that's all there is to it! For that matter, you have high school aged boys whose fathers can't stand to look at them if they don't make the varsity team.

This may or may not be the case here but if it is, the mother probably needs to have her feelings hurt!

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. It's a tough call. At any rate, unless the band is relying on Girlchild, you need to get rid of her.

Rich

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Willie-O
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 05:06 PM

18? That's a young woman not a "girlchild". I was guessing 12-16. Eighteen is way too old for a stage mother/communication intermediary, sorry. ( Sounds like your friendship with the mother is complicating the matter.) However immature the younger one is, she's old enough to be treated as an adult.

I got musically involved with a pair that age (18-19) for awhile--it turned out to be sort of like a jam that really clicks. Wonderful magic when it happens, but hard to replicate sometimes. The real difference between us turned out to be that my young friend (one of the two) didn't think she could or should do the music when she didn't feel like it--just said, "Ennnh, I'm not into this now. Can't sing when my heart's not in it." My reaction, to describe what I thought and you're talking about too--a professional attitude-- made no apparent impact. The last day I was there (this was during a 2-month sojourn in the west) we hadn't played together for weeks, but we put down a bunch of tracks on my recording Walkman. Turned out pretty good, considering. Would have been better if we'd practiced. "Jackaroe" on my mp3 site is from that session.

Still, despite the frustrations, I would have liked us to keep playing together. When you hit a real good groove with someone the first time you play together, well, that's a pretty rare thing and you have to think there's something worthwhile there. But someone who can't take any constructive criticism at all is no fun to work with. (Wasn't the case with my friends; they enjoyed having someone older and with more musical experience taking them seriously, and I got a big kick out of mentoring them. We remain good friends though infrequently in contact.)

Cut her loose now. You have standards, and clearly she's not meeting them. She'll be mad and so will her mom, but two or ten years from now she'll be over it and if she sticks with music, might be ready to thank you, maybe even rejoin.

Of the really useful musical advice I've ever had, most of it I haven't wanted to hear at the time.

A few of the comments on this thread have struck me as disturbingly sexist.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: flattop
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM

Men who keep grabbing their instruments and making loud noises are a dime a dozen, Clint. Women who can sing well are much rarer. Of course women singers can be difficult for the self-indulgent boys in the band since good singers often require subtlety, sensitivity and intelligence from their accompanists.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,A. Noni Mouse
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 05:45 PM

Before anyone asks, I'm also female, play two instruments, sing and write. The band does not revolve around or depend upon Girlchild. I'm just troubled by the fact that feelings ARE going to be hurt, and I'll probably lose two really good friends in the process. Mum and daughter are like family members now. I have pretty much decided that honesty is the best policy.

Average age of our band is 40, but we're diverse in that department, ranging from old farts to those of us still in our prime.

Unfortunately, what began as a joyous happening has turned into a bit of a chore with the "youngster" in tow, and a semi-famous entertainer once told me "If it's not fun, you're doing something wrong." Time to heed his advice.

Once again, thanks for all the feedback, and I'll come back and do a follow-up. (I feel like a talkshow guest here.) Mudcatters are the best!

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 10:30 PM

Then maybe it's a Canadian thing.. singing women are pretty damn common in my circles... Maybe i'm just lucky...

{~`

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM

My thought would be to cut her loose but be kind, the age difference carries along a lot of baggage even if she were ideal. A band that's already got a path doesn't need to reroute itself for a sometime, somewhat, maybe, she needs to completely ajust to find her place with you all not all of you readjusting to suit her fitting in, if she doesn't like what your doing why's she there, she's getting something & if it is the attention then like Mick says she's more important than the music & the band. Good luck. Barry

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Callie
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 10:50 PM

In my student days, our way of dealing with difficult/unmusical members was for the band to split up then reform a week later. It was the best solution at the time. However, it's not one that I would opt for now.

The group I'm currently in recruited a new member, who seemed almost perfect. Several weeks later, it was apparent that things were not working. It was mainly a musical thing. This guy had no rhtyhm and kept singing out of time. Furthermore, he'd blame the problem on the arrangment, or not realise he was singing out of time. There were other problems, but that was the main one. After several frustrating gigs, we had a big talk about it AS A GROUP. The three 'oldies' were and are clear about what standard and commitment we expect. We explained that it wasn't working and explained why. We also explained that it was not 'our' (the group's problem), but HIS problem. While we were happy to help him improve, we also didn't want to be held back by him.

I'm glad we were honest with him. We gave him the right of reply. it did become a little complicated. He brought in other factors: a history of mental illness and a fear of not being accepted by groups. It didn't make it easy, but eventually HE contacted the members of the group and said he could see it wasn't the right group for him. he thanked us for our honesty.

All unpleasant stuff, but honesty was the only way to deal with it. And after that experience, we are determined to remain a trio!!

Good luck with your situation. Remember - it's your band. Why should someone else blur your vision and hard work?

Callie

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Mbo
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:00 PM

Ahhh Liam Gallagher's female match! If she joins a rock band, she'll be hot stuff! Badasses are not appreciated in the folk world, but in rock it's status quo.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Jimmy C
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:04 AM

My suggestion would be to leave the mother out of it, she's not part of the band and shouldn't have to do the hiring or firing. A little heart to heart talk may help but from what you say I feel this young female has an attitude problem, maybe it's not the type of music she's really interested in, or maybe the little bit of success has gone to her head and she feels that its alright to behave like a hollywood starlet. I also feel that if the shoe was on the other foot she would send you packing poste haste. Good luck

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: flattop
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:41 AM

Ah, but are those Canadian women as lucky, Clint?

And Callie, a history of mental illness and fear of not being accepted by groups, has he heard about mudcat yet?

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Gary T
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 03:11 AM

I agree with Jimmy C. I assume you didn't hire the girl through her mother, so I think it's totally inappropriate to fire her through her mother. If mother and/or daughter scuttle the friendship over a justified firing, was there a real friendship, or just someone whose company you enjoyed?

There's always a last chance. Maybe she's used it up already, and the next step is dismissal. Maybe she's got one more whack at it due her, with a zero tolerance policy. Step one: decide when/where her last chance is/was. Step two: communicate to her--it should be firm, nice, and somewhat blunt, and leave no doubt in anyone's mind. Step three: follow through.

Above advice valued at the standard two cents--on special today, free! And worth every penny!

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:53 AM

I think you've chosen the best course of action. Hopefully, she and her mom will understand that you act on behalf of the band and can't allow personal friendships to harm the group, and things are just not working the way they are now.

With regards to my suggestion about going through her mom, I made it because I thought she was younger than she is. Gary T is right. The young woman is old enough to be responsible for her own behavior.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECY
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:12 AM

Can she come down here and be in my band?

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Peg
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:07 PM

Good on ya, flattop!

I say give 'er a chance...what do 18 year olds know about how to act, really? (Everyone: think of yerselves at that age. Be honest. You thought you knew everything, right?)

She deserves to at least hear from you what you think is problematic about her behavior...if she agrees or is appropriately mortified, give her a chance to shape up. If she is as talented as you say, she deserves a bit of guidance from someone older and more experienced.

peg

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,Sailor Dan at work
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:57 PM

From What I read, your band is a moneymaking (I hope) enterprise. It is a business. The work ethics and productivity of an "employee" have slipped to an unsatisfactory rating and this person is now an anchor and is retarding the forward progression of your group.

In all fairness, You should sit down with Her and her mother, lay out the problems that you and the band are having and advise her that at this point in her career she is a detriment and not an asset to the group. Tell her what you expect of her as a viable group member and this should include the attitude bit. Then offer her and her mother a trial period to correct the shortcomings. If this doesn't work then let her go. Who knows she just might return to her former self. Either way, you have made it known that the present situation cannot and will not continue.

AS a working individual, I put bread on my families table first, then I am willing to share with the less fortunate. When the less fortunate start to take away the bread from my family, and it comes to a point that my family suffers badly, then it appears that the less fortunate must find someone else to provide for themselves. There is an old saying that "Charity begins at home"

Sailor DAn

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 01:02 PM

Let her mother mother her... When she's ready, then she can come out and play nice with the other kids... Until then, it sounds like her room is ther perfect place for her...

frigg'n kids....

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,Skinfull
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 01:39 PM

During the spring and in summer after my last year in high school I was a drummer in a small town MOR/country/cover band. Two of my classmates (keyboards, bass)had also been recruited by the 'main guy'. The band had existed over a number of years with same 'main guy', who was a lot older (probably in his thirties!)but various rotations of band members. Late August that year I'm reading the paper and see an ad looking for keyboard player, bass player and drummer, and 'main guy's' phone number. I call him to find out what was going on and he says 'I thought you were going to university.' (The other two were.)Now, I kinda thought he was lying, because I don't think he liked me, but whether it was a personality thing ("yer hair's too long")or a musical thing ("you fell asleep again during Cracklin' Rosie when we played it the third time") I'll never know. I just figured he didn't want me in the band, which by that time was okay by me. Point is, I wish he would've talked to me. Criticism, when constructive, although hard to absorb initially, can have far-reaching positive outcomes.
Skinfull

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Bert
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 01:41 PM

Thread creep,

Callie, the 'singer' should lead the timing and phrasing of a song, unless you are a dance band. There's nothing worse than singing a song acapella and have guitarists join in and destroy the timing because they think that everything is 4/4.

And Clinton, If it's 'songs' that the band is playing then the lead singer is the one who interprets the song, because any yutz with a guitar can make like a metronome.

Bert.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 03:56 PM

If it were up to me as a band leader I would first confirm with the other band members that everyone felt the same way about the situation and that everyone was on the same page. Then I would have a conversation with the "young'n" alone so that she didn't feel like everyone was ganging up on her and it would also reduce the amount of embarrassment for everyone involved. But you should assure her that the opinions expressed were a group decision. I would also be inclined to talk to her without her mother being present. Eighteen or so should be old enough to handle the situation without involving mom. This can be looked on as a growth experience for the teenager and it should be explaned that the whole point of the talk is to help her grow as a band member. She can worry about her own solo career at a later date if she prefers "attention" over the band experience . Under NO situation would I lie to her just as a convience for her mother. This girl won't be able to be an adult unless she is treated like one. But that's just my opinion. Let us know what happens.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 03:57 PM

I don't know where my name went but I was responsible for that last post.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM

If this was a male, what would you do?

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Jed at Work
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM

Lottsa good thoughts here, and I don't have much to add, but it sounds like you know what you want to do, the rest of the group agrees (it sound like) and you want the parting to be as healthy for the child as possible.

Change her role. Have her do the invited "guest spots" that highlight her strengths and only bring her on at appropriate shows. Now she's a part time member. This gives you and her a buffer. She could be more easliy 'phased' out, Mom's happy, and you could 'phase-in' her replacement also by doing 'guest spots' with a new member (if indeed you replace her).

Sounds like this little one needs a push outta the nest. Don;t be surprised if she blossoms and flies away on her own, once she's out ... but I suspect from your concern, that would only please you, anyway.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 04:31 PM

Neat question, kendall, it might make a difference it might not. I'll think about it.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: death by whisky
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 04:39 PM

I like previous post thought girlchild in question was in fact a child... even though behaviour may be childish ,18 is an adult and really does need to be treated as such. I (Mrs Whisky) as well as Death By used to be a youth worker and as such have no illusions about young people, many are extremely able to relate to adult communication, others are well able to manipulate!! Most fall between the two. Do not try to communicate through the mother as this at best will undoubtedly backfire on you, from one camp or the other! Discuss directly, clearly and without blame. Label the behaviour you need changed and if you really feel she deserves another chance then set a time limit to review the situation, at this point tell her what will happen if the necessary changes are not made.Above all be honest and clear, believe me it works and it is by far the best policy... by the way i have to put this into practice and not just spout it because I am a manager of an organisation and unfortunately from time to time this is one of the more unpleasant tasks. Good luck. Be honest to yourself and feel no guilt!!! Bec

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Dee45
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 04:57 PM

To address Kendall's slant on the situation, in my opinion it shouldn't make any difference whether the singer (or other musician) in question is male or female.

And I agree with those comments posted about taking this directly to the 18 year old and leaving Mummy out of the picture, and having the confrontation/discussion privately, calmly and away from the other band members.

If your concerns had not been addressed to this person prior, I'd give that person one chance and one chance only to right the situation (assuming they want to remain in the band, and assuming they're not making you feel like they're doing you a favor staying.) If however any further work is lost or jeopardized as a result of this person's on stage or off stage behavior or attitude, with any affected third party (other band members, club owner, or audience members) they should be terminated immediately.

If I were "GUEST,A. Noni Mouse", I would quietly and very discretely start looking for a replacement singer now, as a precaution, and, to check out your options and to see who else is out there, available, appropriate and enthusiastic about joining your group.

Never make any one member of your musical group or band, feel like they are indispensible, for all of the obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 05:19 PM

Of course it makes a difference. 18 year old girls cry; 18 year old boys whine. Girls run to Mom for backup; boys get angry and join a rock band. Boys sulk; girls pout.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 05:28 PM

But, should that difference affect the decision of what to do?

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 05:35 PM

Girls should get angry too! Angry boys & girls=punk band! Maybe this pouty lass could be the catalyst in creating the acoustic folk zoot suit bagpipe punk band I've always dreamed of! Someone who can take on my song "The Pawky Duke" without flubbing it like me! Can she sing is Scots dialect?

--Matt

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 05:39 PM

6 or 60, male or female, what does it matter??? If a band member is bringing the rest of the band down, time to heave 'em over side! For the sake of the band and the mental health of the remaining members if for nothig else... let the chips fall where they may!

I got no kid gloves for anyone... ya don't like that? Don't be in a band with me, cause I'm gonna be honest with you....

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: guinnesschik
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:33 PM

Sounds like there's a lot of good advice out there, but I'm of the "honesty is the best policy" opinion. Sometimes, being nice and honest at the same time can work, and other times, obviously, it can bite ya' right in th' butt. MAYBE talking to Mum and the Youngun at the same time could help. Sounds like Mum's enjoying it more than the actual performer.

*Sigh* Jed's always got such good advice. He's so "zen."

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:55 PM

When people are in a band together and it works, it is a magical experience. If it later starts falling apart, there is still an emotional connection between the members of the group. That connection can lead to a lot of pain when it's not working out. That connection is what makes good music when it is working.

It sounds to me that you would like to make this work with the singer you have, because it was good once.
Yes, music is a business, but music is emotional as well.

The mother has nothing to do with the issue, except that the girl may be dragging her rebellion into the band.
If the mother uses her friendship with you to pressure you into keeping her daughter in the band, she is not a true friend. I am sorry to say that.

It is amazing how many people do not realize that music isn't just a toy, and that you need to behave professionally. I know a good guitarist, who is 3 years older than me. I asked him to play for me, and he said that he had to be in the mood to play. He calls himself a musician?!!!
Like, hello! If you start to play, you often feel like playing. The magic is there some times, and some times it's not. But you still play!!!!
Why don't people know that?

(You know, it's probably the same people as the ones who think that creative arts aren't "work". Yeah. Let them try to arrange a piece of music for over eight hours, or practice for five hours straight. Grrrrrrr!!!)

As I said before, treat people as adults, and they'll start acting like it. Either that, or they make the decision to leave on their own.

The real issue here is that the mother is interfering with your management of the band. Both by asking you to lie to her daughter, and by (probably) emotional pressure on her daughter to be in the band.

My dad wanted me to be a "world famous piano player". I love piano, and I stopped taking lessons because I wasn't doing it for me, because he was always in there. I stopped dancing for the same reason. I hid everything I loved away from his influence.
I didn't dance again until ten years after I left my dad to live with my mother.
Music was safe with my mother, thank goodness!

Be very careful.

If you do have to let her go, make it as amicable as possible. Music isn't just business, and she is a human being.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Callie
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:38 PM

bert: our group is mainly a cappella. The now-ex-member was always at least a beat behind with his entire part. Couldn't get the hang of the fact that if you miss one note, you should catch up at the next bar. Without him, the trio copes exceedingly well. When we need a bass singer, we borrow one.

Callie

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM

Man, this is a tough one. I think each one of us would actually need to be there and know the individuals involved to be really sure of what to do.

In general though, I'd say her mother should NOT be involved in ANY of these negotiations. She is seeing her daughter as an extension of her own dreams, and that may be partly why her daughter has not matured very effectively.

I have a father who saw me as an extension of his dreams, and it was hell. The only way I could enjoy doing anything in life was to make sure he had no leverage on it or indeed any awareness of the situation at all, because if he did he would just take over and start trying to orchestrate everything. He still tries to tell me what songs I should sing at a gig (on the rare occasions when he attends one), and he can't write "roses are red, violets are blue, monkeys stink, and so do you" or the equivalent thereof (which he himself will freely admit...his area of expertise is science and technology...he's very good at that).

The mother of this young woman has asked you to lie. That should be enough to count her out of the process completely. I've seen where that sort of BS leads and it leads to nowhere good.

The girl should be treated like an adult, which is to say that the whole band should have a talk with her, and make it absolutely clear what problems exist, and what the band's concerns are. Give her a full chance to deal with that on an equal adult level. And listen to her concerns...if she is willing to express them. If she isn't, I see little hope for her continuing in the band.

If you are correct that all she is in it for is the attention...and if she is not willing to change that...then you will have to fire her at some point. If that causes you to lose her mother's friendship...well, that would indicate to me that her mother is not too mature either, and maybe you won't be losing much...if you know what I mean.

I would hate to be in your position. I would also hate to be the one to steer you wrong...so go on your own gut feeling and do not let others manipulate you through guilt or anything like that. Be honest and forthright.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:25 AM

Ahh, Show Business!

I truly hope we will get to hear how it turns out. Many of us have been / will be in a similar situation. Thanks for a fascinating thread. == Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:31 AM

ah, and if she were only a Mudcatter you could simply show her this thread!

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Willie-O
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:20 AM

Dear Abby...

nothing pisses off band members who are meeting the leader's/groups expectations than having the interests of the band subordinated to the leaders desire to please a non-band member. (Like someone's mother, or a hanger-on).

I speak from experience...

Willie "you can't fire me, I quit" -O

Good luck, there.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Bert
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 10:45 AM

Ah yes Callie, sorry I misjudged your posting. That's one of the problems I have with the web, I always 'make up' the rest of the story to fit in with my own experience, and usually get it wrong.
And it also never occurred to me that someone could be quite that bad as to sing along one note behind everyone else. That's just awful.

Bert.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Callie
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 11:24 PM

IT WAS EXCRUCIATING!!!! He had to go. That's all there was for it.

I guess that's the bottom line. Once you get to the point that the musical experience becomes excruciating, you'll do something about it! We did!

Callie

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,thechicksinger
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 05:15 PM

Thank you, flattop for sticking up for us chick singers who don't play another instrument. Or maybe we do but we can't sing and play at the same time and the singing is better anyway.

Some people think that since "we can all sing," that singing doesn't take any practise. All I know is I've been taking voice lessons for years and it's my voice that gets the compliments, not usually the others that I often sing with.

As to the issue of the thread, Gervase got it right, if there's no joy, there's no bloody hope. In a band, everybody must be pretty close to the same page in attitude or it'll never work.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:33 PM

Make her the boss. Let her make all the tough decisions. Let her decide what the band is going to sound like, act like, and present itself. Put her in charge.

Doesn't sound like such good advice? Unfortunately, if you can't talk to her about her problematic behavior you've already done all of the above.

Be nice. Be honest. She's your band mate, so give her the benefit of the doubt; maybe she doesn't see what is obvious to everyone else in the band (Your opinion is shared by other band members, isn't it? You've talked about this? If not, there might some other work you have to do here. You might have to consider your own motives. Just a possibility)Give her a chance to fix what she's doing wrong. She added to the band once, there's no saying she can't again. You might be an important part of her "growth process". Mostly, treat her like you'd want to be treated if it was you screwing up. Next time, it may be.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: guinnesschik
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:41 AM

Any progress reports on this? Let us know, please, as we wish you much luck.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Branwen23
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:19 PM

refresh....

I, too, am interested to hear the outcome.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:40 AM

It sounds like you have made up your mind already on this, by are holding off because of "friendship". I would just say that the mother's friendship may have been motivated by the desire to keep her daughter in the band--especially since she pulled the "keep her, even if you have to lie to her" routine--

Attitude and commitment matter much more than talent, and most bands hit a glass ceiling because not everyone has the same attitude or commitment. Though you may not see it yet, this person and her mother are tearing your group apart. Things will seem much better the day after they leave--

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,A. Noni Mouse
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:44 PM

UPDATE: The firing was still done as nicely as possible, and I still have both mother and daughter as friends.

Without dwelling on the negative aspects of Girlchild's performances, I wrote two e-mails, one for daughter and one for mother. In daughter's, I expressed a concern for her schoolwork, and the fact that she seemed to be spreading herself too thin. I gave her an invitation to come and sing with us as a "special guest star" at certain gigs.

In mother's I explained to her why I did as I did. I didn't want to lie about what the band is doing, I simply wanted all to be happy with the inevitable fact that daughter cannot work with us full time any more.

Ugly things were said.

Tears were shed.

But, logic won the day, and I think we're all happpy with the outcome.

Thanks, 'Catters, for all the good advice and concern.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: hesperis
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:41 PM

Good.

Thanks for letting us know what happened.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: tar_heel
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:55 PM

GROW UP!!band members are a dime a dozen.......fire this spoiled brat or you will spend the rest of your life going through this B...S...!!there is no such thing as a COMPLETE band ,forever........deversity is what a band is all about,or just disband and forget it!!you'll be glad you did ,in the long run!i had to fire a good friend of mine,excellent lead guitar player,right before a performance one night.he thought he was expendible and thought we could not do a show without him....but he soon learned that guitar pickers are a dime a dozen ,too.......he has now gone on to bigger and better things,his own band,all kinds of stuff.........to this day,he thanks me for giving him the boot and setting his aim in life with his music....straight!!

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 04:34 PM

There are some that don't go on to bigger and better things, and are bitter for the rest of their lives (though they were probably bitter about something else when they joined the band)--