BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 08:59 AM

Roger-I wondered what would happen if I put Hull in the search box, there was tons of stuff! There is some really good threads in the archive, not much on football though!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:03 AM

john you been trawling the old threads again??
Lots of music and great musicians here in Sheffield (UK) but not that many on mudcat (3?)

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:01 AM

In Hull there is about 30 Mudcatters, and folk sessions on every night.Does anywhere have more Catters than Hull? The population of Hull is about 250,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 01:29 AM

I think it's because we are the media that carry our music. Now granted, with the internet, one can get a lot of info from all over. Look at this site for example. Nonetheless, this site, doesn't seek us. Green Linnet, Philo and Shanachie don't call us out of the blue and say "We've got a whole world of music, that's not on VH-1, and if you checked it out, you might like it." Before I ever learned a thing from anyone on this site, I learned from people here in Pittsburgh. Now we have a moderately small folk scene, but it's enjoyable, and there are good people here. Granted I had a little push from the more mainstream stuff like the Chieftains and such, but it's the grassroots people here that sucked me in. I don't know what I'd be into if there wasn't a community for me to have fallen into, but I doubt I would have ended up as a folkie if my seed linded on rockier ground.

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM

I have long been of the opinion that one of the reasons for a concenyration of like souls is "PLACE". In my county of Yorkshire there are places where certain types of people gather, some of the "Folkies". One of them is Whitby on the North Yorks coastline. Part of the reason is due to the annual Folk Week in August, but in part it is also that we who go there regularly likr the place, as do those who have already retired there ( plus the people who haven't yet retired, but went anyway ).
Another "place" is Hebden Bridge, which is noted for the number of aliens in flying saucers who visit. It must be a prime place of interest if you have green skin and pointy ears, but I personally do not know why they don't visit Luddendenfoot which is only a few miles walk down the valley.
Quack!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:42 AM

Hi there, Master McGrath!

Yopu said you'd like to hear some stories of how organised folk clubs grew out of informal gatherings.

Well, have you forgotten that the first folk-club in your home town of Harlow was launched in the way I described, by my old mate Jim Basset?

For about 18 months, from the summer of '61 through to the early spring of '63, Jim and a few other enthusiasts used to hold weekend folk parties every month or two. Eventually, when enough people became interested, they started meeting once a week in the room above a local pub called "The Small Copper".

I was there on the opening night, and I seem to remember that you were, too - but the star attraction was Alex Campbell. (What an entertainer! I still miss him, don't you? And isn't it a scandal that none of his vinyl recordings have been re-issued on CD?)

Since then, I've seen, or heard about, quite a few other instances of informal private gatherings developing into more established (and accessible)institutions. The details would probably be too tedious for the general reader, but if you like, I could email them to your personal page.

Wassail!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Biskit
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 12:12 PM

Having been delighted several times by your music on HearMe, I'm sure your friends also have memories that they'll reflect on for years to come. Good for you Matt!.. Ah puts me to rememberin'......-Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 11:36 AM

The "house church" approach to buildoing things that Mike (hi) suggests sounds is something I haven't heard working out in England. . The onl;y worry I'd have about it is that openness to all comers has always seemed an essential thing about the folk scen. As a transitional thing though, it makes a lot of sense.

It's be interesting to hear how this kind of thing has worked out in different places.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:43 AM

Mike, you bring up a good point. My father is a buckskinner and used to hold an annual rendezvous on his farm. The gun club he belongs to was always enthusiastic about the rendezvous in the planning stages but hardly anyone ever showed up to do the work of preparing the site. The burden fell to my father (and me).

My point is this. If you want to start a folk venue be prepared to do the work yourself. Be grateful for any help that materializes but don't grow to depend on it too quickly.

This is the real test of your love for the music. Whenever I stand in the empty room that will be the Mocha Cafe I feel that test straining at me. And when I stand on the stage to welcome the people and introduce the first performer I look at the crowd and feel a sense of pride in passing the test yet again.

I started going to the folk concerts at the Chocolate Church in 1987. I started helping out in the '90's some time. I am now in the position of them expecting me to be there for them. This is a responsibility I take seriously but it took a long time before the crew at the church allowed themselves to expect my help.

That is how it should be. Appreciate your volunteers. As Gordon Bok said at the concert last Friday, without the volunteers the music would not get out there for the people to hear. It would dry up and blow away. Gordon would have remained a sailor and wood carver and never been able to get on a stage.

Of course, we all know this is a huge exageration but it is something to keep in mind. There are a lot of talented performers out there who will, for one reason or another, never follow Gordon into the limelight. It is the small venue that gets them on stage and gets an audience in front of them.

(Oh, for those who don't know, a buckskinner is a person who recreates the days of the old fur trappers out West and the Long Hunters in the East. These are the people who lived in the woods and hunted with fint lock rifles prior to 1840 and after the Revolution.)

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:50 AM

Over the years, I've been involved in several attempts to establish networks of people interested in 'minority' music (folk or otherwise). There are two methods that seem to work fairly well.

1) Find half a dozen enthusiasts, willing to hold occasional gatherings in their homes. Meet, say, once a month, with a different member as host each time. Invite interested friends to come along. When the crowd gets too big to fit into anyone's parlour, rent a public room in an accessible location, and start charging people to come in. If they keep coming, supplement your local performers with occasional guest artists from outside the community, and advertise them in the local newspaper. (Nowadays, you can also spread the word via the web.)

2) Alternatively, find a suitable venue (coffee-house, pub, community arts centre, or whatever), with a sympathetic manager. Then try and persuade them to include a regular folk-night in their entertainment package. This is a riskier method, because if audience numbers don't build up quickly, the proprietors will probably pull the plug on you. (And even if the event is successful, a change of ownership, or a change of policy, can still shut you down abruptly.)

Either way, the rule is 'use it or lose it'. Most of these gatherings survive because a small cluster of people turn up regularly, and help keep the show running. Not just the performers, but also the unsung heroes and heroines who do the less glamorous (but equally necessary) chores. And the hard core audience, of course. Without their commitment, the show can't go on.

There's another asset that's a great help in getting a scene started - or keeping it going once it's started. In your community, you may be lucky enough to have a shop selling records (and/or sheet music, instruments, strings, picks etc,) with at least one staff member who's on your side. If they have room for a small notice board, this can provide almost all the publicity you need. (In return, give their store a plug at your club nights.)

And this leads to one final suggestion. If you are desperate for congenial musical company, visit all your local music stores, and find the ones that sell the sort of stuff that interests you. Buy a record, or some sheet music, or a pack of strings, and engage the staff in conversation. If they seem to be on your wave-length, then ask where the local action is. You may believe you're living in a musical desert - but chances are there's a scene going on that you haven't noticed yet.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:40 AM

McGrath, you're absolutely right as far as grassroots stuff is concerned. I was thinking more of "performing venues" situations (as my early message high up on the list mentioned), where if people don't show up and pay money, the event will not survive.

In the Calgary Singers' Circle, we've had as few as 3 people (a good session, by the way!) and as many as 39. For our contra dances, we have 50-80 dancers, usually. For both things, the publicity is solely a phone/email tree and word of mouth. Both events could survive with small numbers (except that for the dances we have to pay for the hall, also a dance with only a few dancers doesn't work well -- but we started with 8 people in a living room...).

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:20 AM

Hip hip hooray for Mbo! But bigger hoorays for the new friends who got a chance to get to know him. And hear him! I wanna HEAR him and SEE him at the same time! (Mbo went to BeachMe??)

A phrase caught my eye somewhere way up there on the page and got me started... FOLK CIRCLES.

Must be like CROP CIRCLES. Spring up mysteriously in the night in the middle of nowhere. Music nowhere, I mean. Folk nowhere, then BAMM, a folk circle, song circle, circle of friends.

Hope there is no hoax involved though.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 00 - 03:17 PM

"If we build it, we'll be there" is perhaps a better basis. If the "we" gets bigger, so much the better. If it doesn't, what have you lost so long as you got a chance to play and sing the music you love?

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 10 Oct 00 - 12:43 PM

Coming back after after a weekend of overeating turkey (and I'll eschew the obvious puns...):

I'm not sure that "If you build it, they will come" always works. "They" have to be there, and "they" have to know about it. In other words, there have to be potential participants in sufficient numbers, and the communications have to be effective to inform them about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM

"I'll expect you at Wembley Arena 'fore long!" Better not wait too long - they're pulling the poor old bugger down any day now. Just had the last football match there - England lost to Germany. (And the same night Scotland onlty just beat San Marino...But not at Wembley, or San Marino would probably have won...)

And Mbo, glad things are moving out in the 3D world - but you'll still come back and tell us off still sometimes won't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 12:05 PM

I thought it was "Badgers?! We don't need no stinkin' badgers!"

Ah, memories...I remember sitting around a campfire by a moonlit lake with a bunch of people from work and singing our brains out to songs on an oldies radio station...

Hard to find people who know or like traditional songs unless you sneak one in every now and then. Easier to find folks who just want to sing.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 12:04 PM

any time you are in a nice setting with people you like, singing songs you like and agree on, it is GOOD! Sounds like a great weekend!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 11:55 AM

No Jeri, I was punning the mousepads we have here in the computer lab that say "Floppies? You don't need no stinkin' floppies!". Sigh...I'll never hear "Motion Picture Soundtrack" by Radiohead again without thinking of all 19 of us walking on the beach at 1am, while the half moon sparkled off the Atlantic Ocean...

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 11:50 AM

I remember when I was young...yeah, it's gonna be one of those stories.

I was at the Fox Hollow Fest, sitting around with a bunch of kids. We loved that traditional songs, but didn't know many, so we sang and played stuff we did know - Eagles, James Taylor, Led Zep, America, Neil Young, CSN, etc. We never saw ourselves in competition thought, and the old farts in their 30's and 40's left us alone to sing whatever we wanted. Not "I don't need no stinkin' folk festivals," but more like "We're gonna sing whatever we can sing." You don't need a festival to do it - just a bunch of people who want to sing.

So two years ago, I was at Old Songs, wandering around at night looking for music. I came upon a bunch of kids who had started their own session, and was told "you're welcome to come in as long as your nice." (Read "We don't need no bossy adults telling us what we should be singing.") I didn't go - I was more concerned about intimidating them, but I might have felt out of place because I didn't know the music. I really wish I'd gone in now. I probably missed some great songs, and I might have learned something.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 11:34 AM

You can be baffled WW...its OK. The main thing is that Meebo has FINALLY got out there and realized there are REAL people in a REAL world with REAL likes that are like his own.........and it doesn't matter what the music!!!

KEEP IT UP MEEBO!!!!!! Go Tuesday, Wednesday, any day, all week....Just soak up the experience!!!! You have indeed made my day.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 11:17 AM

Matt: I don't care what you call it (folk or pop), but it sounds like you had a great experience that is the essence of what attracts many of us to "folk". There are magical moments when everything comes together for a great evening of sharing music and we live for them! I remember being at camp when I was young and the councilors were singing "Blowing in the Wind", "Turn, Turn, Turn", and "Elinor Rigby" (the pop tunes of the time). Ever since then I've been hooked on "folk" music.

My personal likes/dislikes have gravitated towards traditional tunes and songs because I like to research the different variations and history of what I learn. However, the central thing that attracts me is that these are songs/tunes that are meant to be sung and shared by people. Damn, your weekend makes me jealous!!! :-).

JAB:

Abby, Yes! the ARK was another magical time in my life. It was the catalyst of the Ann Arbor music community for so many years. I remember sitting on the floor at the Hill Street location, and falling backwards when I stood up (My feet had fallen asleep and the earth shoes I was wearing were tilted backwards). David Bromberg, Michael Cooney, The Bothy Band... the list goes on and on.

Back on Topic:

It seems that a catalyst usually helps create a folk community. It could be a folk club, venue, or music store. Is one enough, or do you need all three. Is it easier to maintain a music community in areas where the music originated and have a living tradition, or does that matter much anymore in our electronic age?

JAB

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 08:51 AM

It's true, Mbo, we do worry--glad to know you get out from sometimes!!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 08:42 AM

Matt, glad you got to play to/with a live audience, we old fogeys worry you spend too much time alone with your 'puter! Now take it further: Today ECU, tomorrow the world! I'll expect you at Wembley Arena 'fore long!
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Oct 00 - 11:12 PM

...you mean there are others out there like you, Mat...and you finally found them? *wink* harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: WyoWoman
Date: 08 Oct 00 - 09:34 PM

These either-or conversations baffle me.

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Mbo
Date: 08 Oct 00 - 06:19 PM

Well, I juts got back from the annual Beach Retreat with 17 other college kids (like myself) from the ECU Catholic Newman Center, as well as our wacky priest Father Tom. Oh MAN what a great time we had! I've never laughed so hard in my entire life and had so much fun over the course of the weekend. We all left to come back home at 10am this morning, and as soon as took off I missed them already. Thank goodness I get to see them all again on Tuesday (P.I.R.A.T.E. Night = karoake!!!) and Wednesday. I brought me guitar with me..it was great. I got to talk to people about Radiohead & Oasis who actually CARED about it, and I've never had so many people play me guitar. When I first got there, they were begging me to play! Elle & Lisa were harmonizing with me on "Shakermaker" by Oasis, Ryan & Steve and me trio-ed up on "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" and "I Am The Walrus" by the Beatles...but the most exciting was when just about all of us sang "All Star" by Smash Mouth (last summer's biggest song). Oh my God what a rush--I wish I could have taped it! Folk festivals??? I don't need no stinkin' folk festivals!

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:35 PM

...Well BigDaddy, I cut my teeth at the Ark while I was an Ann Arbor resident. The Michigan folk scene was incomparable, but Florida has a tight knit folk group. You will be welcome, I'm sure. Roy Bookbinder is down here and Grammy nominee Jeanie Fitchen as well. The west coast has a very active folk music community!!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 08:16 PM

McGrath of Harlow,

I like your pearl comparison. I think that's what I'm trying to do with accordions, although I think I'm still at the stage where I'm being more of an irritant than a pearl. Still working on it, though. (And not likely to give up, for those of you who were hoping.)

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 06:30 PM

Pearls are created because there is some irritating little bit of something that can't get assimilated that provokes the oyster into starting to make a pearl.

That's more or less how iot works with folk music too. There's some individual, or set of individuals who are just obessed enough and ornary enough to get something going, and then it just grows from there, if things go right.

There have to be a few people around who are available to be drawn into it, play the music, gom tomthe convcerts or dances or whatever, and there are probably palces and time where this just isn't the case. But most of the time I suspect that they are there, but what is missing is the precipitating folk agitators.

And so far as I'm concerned, it's never a question of "what is folk", and if it's not "folk" it doesn't belong. The crucial thing is that it should be live music made by real people, without those present having hang-ups about when they were born, and without any kind of exclusion of songs just because of the date people started singing them.

What matters is, do the songs speak to the people listening? Are the singers singing them for any other reason than just to make a noise and to get people looking at them. And if it's tunes, could you dance to them if you wanted to?

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Ely
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 05:55 PM

My parents speak fondly of the folk scene in Ann Arbor, but they were there from 1968-1978, so I imagine it was pretty good. I'm glad to hear there's still stuff going on. University influence? I don't know.

Iowa seems to be doing well, at least for old-time music. Plenty of local talent, regular dances, etc. Home (Houston) has lots of music but it seems to be spread out across genres, so I've had a hard time finding really good old-time stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:05 PM

BigDaddy,

You're lucky to have anything in Michigan, what with your Governor Engler--but seriously, the thriving Michigan folk music scene owes a lot to Stan Werbin, and Elderly Instruments--there had been a fairly active folk community in East Lansing when they started the store, but it was starting to fall by the wayside--And even though it started as a small store for collectible instruments, they welcomed and tried to accomodate everybody, whether they were collectors, players, non-players, or whatever--the result has been that a goodsized, vibrant community has grown--

The trick was that the door was open to anyone--which, sadly, is not always true

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: BigDaddy
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:43 PM

Lucky here in Michigan to have a quantity of quality performers, as well as some wonderful venues. Also helped greatly by organizations like the Irish-American Club/Gaelic League, St. Andrew's Scottish Society and many others who help keep it lively. We even have some folk performers here who manage to do music for a living! Jeri, you're right on with your comments about "Reynardine." It's been giving me wonderful shivers for nearly thirty years. And harpgirl, thanks for the input on the Florida folk scene. I may be moving from here to there next year (somewhere between Clearwater Beach and New Port Richey), and have been apprehensive about leaving the folk scene behind here. Cheers!

J.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:19 AM

Well, you have Kendall...and he has piles....so I guess you're right.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:25 AM

You're right chantyranger but I couldn't include everyone. We have quite a pile of talent here on the coast.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:22 AM

El Swanno and chanteyranger are right about the diversity in the Bay area........Two weirder ducks I can't imagine and that's diversity personified. Besides, where else could you could regularly witness that pinnacle of culture, the "Flying Flaming Fartistic Fishnetted Firefighter Flop."...............Shit man, that's art!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:31 AM

In Florida, Gamble Rogers and Will McLean were the best known of the folkies. Friends of Florida Folk keeps all of us interacting with a list and a website and magazine, not to mention hosting many get togethers.
The Florida Folk Festival in May in White Springs, The Will McLean Festival in March in Dade City, The South Florida Folk Festival in January, the Old Time Music Championships and countless other small festivals, jams, dance, and venues bring the many Florida folkies together.
Doug Gauss is here in Tallahassee. Sue Grooms is in Gainesville. Dash Moore is around St. Augustine. We have Dale Crider and Pat and Ann Thomas, Cheryl and Ray Belanger,Gove Scrivenor, Mark Fackeldy, Robin Plitt is down south, Hot Flash, Upsala, and The Ashley gang. There are a whole lot of us, too numerous too mention and since Florida is a big beautiful state, we come together from the far corners...my favorite time is during organge processing in the spring in Dade City...the smell is intoxicating when we ride through town for events in Pasco county...

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: GUEST,scoattie
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:17 AM

Allendale, Hexham and Northumbrian Tyneside to the coast;Ilived and worked there for fifteen years, and never found myself among a more talented concentration of folk enthusiasts either before or since---and I've just passed the big 70. I'm fairly sure that at least one of the Mudcat hierarchy has close Allendale connections, so he'll know well what I mean.Hexham club in years past used to be looked on as a challenge by the guest artistes, so prolific was the local talent; and when I say guest artistes, I refer to the best---all of the Fisher family [except the sister who went to Oz] Cilla [Fisher] and Artie Tresize, the Battlefield, FiveHand Reel with Dick Gaughan and co, Tannahil, wee Danny Kyle [now gone, bless the memory]Barbara Dickson, Finn Macoull, Cyril Tawney, High Level Ranters [ practically residents!] Alec Atterson, the Frisco Fire Band [Faith Pretick], Arizona Smoke Review, and a host more. A five-ten minute drive from there took you to the home and workshop of Stephan Sobell and his good lady;both have made stringed instruments for folk artistes all over the world. I still find my way back there from Vancouver Island at least twice a year, and still find pleasure in the company of the Tyneside Folkies. May they flourish forever!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Dave Swan
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 12:21 AM

Somewhere farther north on this page Whistle Stop says that two factors contributing to the existence of a vibrant folk community are the presence of a college town and a politically liberal environment. Agreed. I think another contributing factor is a community made up of differing cultures which still make their music in public on a regular basis. Music breeds music. It's good for us to be able to hear koto, concertina, and kalimba all in the same community.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:33 PM

Naemanson, don't forget Cindy Kallet on your list of well-known Maine folkies. Fine singer/songwriter with a voice to die for.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Naemanson
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 05:02 PM

Uh oh, we are getting dangerously close to that deadliest of questions "What is Folk Music?" Beware! HERE BE TYGERS!

I agree that what we call folk music today was once popular music. It stands to reason. Schooner Fare used to joke about the youngsters of the day in later years standing around the old upright synthesizer trying to remember the words to songs by Twisted Sister. It isn't that far from being a joke.

My kids like folk music. Not all of it but they like a lot of what I like. They try to educate me about what they are listening to. I don't like all of it but I do like some of it. So I listen to They Might Be Giants, Bare Naked Ladies, and, the latest, some Japanese band that my younger daughter and her friends listen to. And, when I'm housecleaning I put in any old thing from Pete Seeger to Moody Blues, from Emerson Lake and Palmer and Led Zeplin to Tom Paxton (Yes he is too a folkie!) and Gordon Bok.

John Leeder, you are absolutely right. To start a venue takes a dedicated soul but not too many to do the work. One or two people is all it takes to get something started. "If you build it they will come!"

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:41 PM

If we're talking about areas which have a lot of venues to hear public performance of folk music, I'd suggest that you need two things: people who are prepared to put the time and effort (either professionally or as a volunteer) into organizing; and audience members who are willing to spend their money on folk music in order to make it financially viable. If either of these elements is lacking, you won't have a vibrant public-performance folk scene. However, it's possible to have a vigorous grassroots folk community without having a lot of performance venues (although admittedly it can be good for the grassroots scene if people are able to be enthused by getting to hear good performers from time to time).

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Fortunato
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:32 PM

Jim and Bill et al and I are lucky to live here in DC for the folk scene. But it hasn't happened all by itself. Countless hours of effort by founders of the FSGW and the volunteers who have come after have made it so. From Bruce Hutton's open mikes to the House of Musical Traditions to the Washington Folk Festival it has been a labor of love. I have labored in the trenches since 1975.

Mbo I missed the thread you refer to, but let me say this to you. IMHOP Folklorists and ethnomusicologists, professional and amateur, look backward (I have been accused of this myself). Much of what passes for FOLK MUSIC today was popular music in its day. The music of Jimmie Rodgers and the Carter Family is unquestionably(?) FOLK today, but was POP music yesteryear. The Old Time Music of Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers was POP music in its day. The examples are endless. It is hard to imagine some POP music of today as becoming FOLK, but it may.

When I started my first open mike in the late 70's I asked Joe Hickerson, folklorist of the library of congress and friend about this. He advised me to invite people to play TRADITIONAL music. And to define it so: Music that has passed into the ORAL TRADITION. In that sense, Hank Williams' "Jambalaya" has become TRADITIONAL. How long does it take a piece to become traditional? I don't know, but if pressed I will say 30 years, one generation. So when MBO (and I, by the way) perform "POP" songs, that is the popular music of the day and in so doing pass them into the oral tradition through my son Matthew they have become traditional. Are they FOLK SONGS? Ricky Nelson sang: "If all I sang was memories, I'd rather drive a truck." When Ian and Sylvia sang "Twenty-four hours from Tulsa" was it FOLK or POP?

All of the above is my opinion, clearly. But MBO, please keep doing the POP songs you like, I do, and they just might turn out to be FOLK songs one day. regards, chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:41 PM

Not to be deliberately disrespectful of another's opinions but, Toto? I'll go have another listen. My recollection is that the songs sounded like they were composed by committee and recorded with a lack of balls not commonly found in people of that age. I'll go have another listen.

Someone said something about "going public", and I wholeheartedly agree that folk needs to be more public. Funny, isn't it, that the words "folk" and "public" aren't too closely alligned for folk music to have lost its common appreciation. Oh well, maybe in the big picture, after some history has passed, folk music will remain and other forms more a footnote.

I like Mbo's way of passing songs along in the folk tradition, even if most of us, including me, wouldn't define them as folk songs. However, just because it's delivered like folk music doesn't mean it is folk music. The definition for me is much more complex. Oh, oh, getting close to "what is folk?" thread again.

I'm doing my best to expose my kids to folk music, with some success, and with all the competition, any success is good. Exposure of music and children to each other would create a greater concentration of folkies given a generation or two. Not much of it in the schools that I can see, but I do what I can at home.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM

More thread creep, then I'll knock it off...

The thing with folk songs is they look "obvious" only to those who are looking for the mystery in the wording instead of the tale. Dylan's songs are like a riddle. Often, ballads have a great deal left out, leaving the details to the imagination. Take REYNARDINE for example. (Well, Halloween is coming up!)

Second verse: "...seeking of concealment, all in the judge's name." He claims to be a decent sort, but he's hiding. Why's he hiding?

Third verse, after she asks his name: "'Tis writ in ancient history, they call me Reynardine." OK. His name's written in ancient history, but he's standing there talking to her. Hmmm...

Another version, REYNARDINE 2, says "Her cherry cheeks and ruby lips, they lost their former dye," and later on "Sun and dark she followed him, his teeth so bright did shine, and he led her over the mountains, that sly bold Reynardine."

So you're left wondering about this guy. Who is he? WHAT is he. Is he vampire? Is he a were-fox. "Reynard" seems to be a name for fox. Or maybe it's because in some of the stories, a vampire can become any creature, not just a bat. Now, how did the song get started? Did someone just want to tell a scary story, or was there a real incident someone based the song on? Was there a local legend about "Reynardine," and the song is all that remains?

The point is, there are plenty of folk songs that make you think about what's going on in the story that isn't in the lyrics. You have to pay attention, though. Modern songs can raise the same sort of questions, but when the author is more concerned with how cleverly they can word things, the question becomes "what the blazes did the author mean by THAT?!" There's a reason you don't see too many traditional songs like that, and I suspect it's not because they weren't written.

There's one very obvious thing that I've noticed. When people talk about folk music, they often talk about music. When people talk about pop, they talk about the musicians - the "stars." "Who" becomes more important than "what." Do you ever wonder why that should be?

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Allan C.
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:09 PM

MT, you'll get more of a response if you pose your question in a new thread - one that specifically mentions Seattle in the title. And YES there are 'Catters in your area! There are three other Mudcatters listed in the Locator (see Mudcat Resources) besides you who live in your state and others, I am sure, who live right in Seattle.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Naemanson
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:07 PM

AllanC, you've hit the nail on the head with your comment about starting folk gatherings. I would like to add a few points.

If you want to start something you have to be willing to work at it through a lot of times when it just doesn't seem like it's gonna go. In the early years of the second coming of the Side Door coffeehouse there were nights when we only had half a dozen people in the audience, all of whom were there to perform the open mike and most of whom went home before the featured performer could go on. In those days we, the staff, would go to the coffehouse ready to perform a whole set in case there were not enough people there to fill up the open mike time.

In the last two years that I worked there things had turned around. We opened the door at 7:00 and the sign up sheet was full by 7:05. We were, and they still are, pulling in 35 to 75 people depending on weather and the featured performer.

And our featured performers used to be anyone who could get close to carrying a tune. Not to put them down or anything for we got some really good songs out of them, but this month's featured performer at the Side Door is Gordon Bok.

The Side Door has been featured in a couple of local newspaper articles which pointed out that it is, or was at the time, the only live music venue in town. Since then there have been imitators, including my own Mocha Cafe, popping up all over the place.

You just got to take the bull by the horns!

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 12:52 PM

Are there any mudcatters besides me in the seattle area? All you guys back east getting together makes me jealous.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: Mbo
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 12:49 PM

Even hear Martin Carthy sing "The Bonny Swans"? I wish I hadn't. It was based on one note, and the 'song' was about 3 times longer that "Africa." OOOOOOOPPPPPSSSS!!! I just made a BIG mistake!!! The album of the year was TOTO IV, which contained "Africa"..but the biggest song was the other one from that album "Rosanna" which is also a family favorite.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 12:44 PM

Ewww. "Africa" by Toto is irritating. Based on 2 notes, very repetitive. Some nice lyrics though as you point out, Mbo.

Sorry for thread creep.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Concentrations of Folkies-Why
From: annamill
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 12:32 PM

Allan! Your back!! Well, to this topic! As everyone who was at my first gathering will testify, sometime you don't know 'folkies' are around. When I starting telling people in my area about the gathering and what kind of music would be present, they came out of the woodwork! I told everyone there would be no electric, only accoustic and was I shocked. People who had been at my husbands (I have a husband :-0) jams asked if they could come to play and listen. What a party! The catters AND the locals were out on the dock til 1:30 AM playing folk and blues. It was great! We need another one soon!

The locals were a little bit more aggressive than our 'cats, but very talented. I've been invited to several folk events since then in my area, but I've been swamped. Soon as the store opens I'm going!

Point is, they're out there. You just have to go find them.

Love, annamill