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Alternative Beliefs - a pattern?
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:53 PM I believe this thread is getting long, but I don't believe I know how to make a blue clicky thing. Rich |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Skeptic Date: 13 Oct 00 - 01:28 PM Or anything is theoritical, possibly? Going multicultural, I supose it could be argued that its all illusion anyway, so the door isn't really there. Or go with Xeno's paradox and agrue that the boat/skier would never reach the door to begin with. Much more interesting, the thread on "The Prisoner" is diverged into Diana Rigg as Emma Peel. Truely worthy of more consideration Regards John
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:59 AM WOW! The fourth dimension. I never thought of that. I was too restricted in my thinking... so....anything IS possible. Theoretically. QED. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Skeptic Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:25 AM Or perhaps telekinesis to do the unclasping? And do we have to be content with a Euclidian, three dimensional revolving door? After all, this is about alternate beliefs, one of which is precognition, which presupposes time travel so: A revolving door has four panels, A, B, C, D. The boat "E" and skier "S", approach the door. "E" enters between panels "A" and "B" which are rotating in our three dimensional world. As "S" approaches, Panels "B", )and "C" if needed), additionally rotate through time so that when "S" reaches where panel "B" or "S" would be in this space /time, they are actually "X" seconds in the past (where "X" would be determined by the distance to be covered, velocity of the boat, length of the tow rope and so on) Wolfgang, thanks for the citation. Amos, Can I be a devout atheist and a devout Christian at the same time? Overgeneralizing, skepticism requires proof, the three "c",s and so on. Belief structures do not. So what is the underlying criteria: When do I use skepticism, when don't I?. If there is no criteria beyond "In this case I think skepticism doesn't apply...." or "well, I'll use skepticism foo this part but not for the other", then (worst case) I would submit that what you have is a belief structure system that dresses up a belief system with the intermittent use of skepticism to validate the belief system. Again, I may be misreading where you are going with this, but this seems to me to be the implications of your argument. As to remote seeing, it requires not just acceptance of the experience, but accepting (or rejecting) a lot of the fundamental theories of how reality works. And remember that one validation of some of these theories was that they were able to correctly predict a behavior before we had the techniques or ability to verify that behavior. Remote seeing involves, among other things, undetectable energy, would seem to imply that conservation of energy, inverse square and so on aren't. By the way, photons, being quantum waves/particles, tend not to act repetitively. Or rather not always act the same way. Predictions of dust motes follow chaos theory . On the other hand, the EPR Paradox which Einstein claimed was impossible appears not to be. Unfortunately, that's on the quantum level and we aren't Regards John |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 13 Oct 00 - 08:39 AM Mind you, despite having solved the mysteries of the universe, I still can't manage to close an italics tag properly. One thing at a time, eh? |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 13 Oct 00 - 08:37 AM Not to detract in any way from the serious discussion going on here, but furthering the research into the waterskiing hypothesis... If "anything is possible except waterskiing through a revolving door" then we shall have to consider Skeptic's dematerialization theory. However, we don't want to rely on it too greatly as it seems a bit of a cop-out and the other sceptics will start to complain as they are wont to do, so how about it if the bikini clasp dematerializes? (Stop me if this bothers you Bonnie, this is purely in the interest of science, and as a fellow female (is that an oxymoron?) I am fascinated by the reasoning behind the theory and not the actual bikini top removal.) This removes Amos from the equation, neatly avoiding the reflex and unfastening time, thus freeing up more seconds for the trick of passing through the revolving door. Here, as well, I have made an important discovery while carrying out important scientific research (under the guise of shopping) - those doors don't have to be divided into quarters! You can get revolving doors which merely split the door in two! This gives us a much better chance of dispproving the original hypothesis, therefore it may be perfectly feasible to waterski through a revolving door, therefore anything's possible, therefore we have the universe compltetly sussed, and those infinite number of monkeys with typewriters are holding a book signing as we speak. Not bad for a Friday morning. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Oct 00 - 05:53 AM Perhaps this is the Maslow citation from that book: "...to enlarge the conception of science so as to make it more capable of dealing with persons, especially fully developed and fully human persons." This (or similar) citation(s) is(are) often found in transpersonal, esoteric, humanistic psychology...writings. From the context I gather that the persons citing Maslow take the words as an advice to leave the scientific method of enquiry. I read it as an advice to apply it to more fields it has not been applied yet such as personal experiences. But you may have read the opposition I got when I applied scienctific concepts or results to personal experiences reported by others in these threads. Even if the issue was clearly not the experience as such but its interpretation (to borrow the clear words of Skeptic on this difference). Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Amos Date: 13 Oct 00 - 12:48 AM Well, you could be right -- my knuckles aren't as deft as they once were back the last time I practiced the one-handed lift-off technique. !! As for the brain mind argument, why no extraordinary proof is required. There are plenty of documented cases of people seeing imagery (mind-objects) for which the "owning" brain is far absent; this especially happens when very high affection exists, or when a close connection is under duress. There's plenty of experimenting that can be done within the bounds of ordinary experience. If you wanted really extraordinary proof, you would have to take a human being and do something really weird to him, like force him act repetitive in the same way that dustmotes and photons usually do -- talk about unnatural -- or expose him to conditions that undermine the phenomena you are trying to study. Weird, man. Or, something extraordinary in civilized circles, anyway, get him to reveal his most intimate perceptions and intuitive awarenesses, and then beat him up on the point, telling him he couldn't "possibly" be right. That's extraordinary. Interesting, John, to think that two segments of the spectrum should seem mutually exclusive -- like two sound frequencies that just happen to nullify each other, or colors combining to vanish. I think that, in the range of human conditions ranging from stoner-dead to more alive than life, you encounter a lot of different "ways of knowing", some of which are direct, some of which are firmly locked behind mysteries and magic symbols, some which require solid efforts to bring about knowing (I'll belief it when I can pound it), and so on. It isn't just beliefs versus hard evidence. Anyway, the day is long and I am bound to retire for a brief turn on the other side of that wall over there.... :>)). A |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 13 Oct 00 - 12:05 AM I don't believe Amos could snap Bonnie's bikini top off as she went by. Some things you can go by on faith, but that one I'll have to see to believe! I'm gonna get smacked if I post this but the temptation is just too strong. Submit Message Clear Entries Submit Message Clear Entries Submit Message Clear Entries Submit Message Clear Entries CLICK! |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Troll Date: 12 Oct 00 - 10:10 PM About that bikini top... troll |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Troll Date: 12 Oct 00 - 10:08 PM About that bikini top... troll |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Skeptic Date: 12 Oct 00 - 09:49 PM Uilleand, I'll take your word on the Maslow quote but want to add that Maslow, at least in trying to validate his theories, was an exacting experimenter. His revisions to the scientific method involved, I believe, cross-disciplinary studies (still not all that common) and not elevating experiences to a higher level of truth. I believe in my experiences too. Its the interpretation of meaning that's issue. Amos You seem to be looking for a middle ground. It may not exist. It would seem to me that the two ways of knowing are mutually exclusive. Regards John |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: GUEST,Uilleand Date: 12 Oct 00 - 06:52 PM I believe in what I've experienced. For everything else, I keep an open mind and allow for the possibility. So many people, so many different experiences and perspectives on life. To steal a concept from Douglas Adams I have found valid in exploring alternatives including the one mentioned: Astrology is like graphite when you try to find what someone had written on the sheet of a note pad. The original note is gone, but by using graphite and sprinkling it over the note paper underneath, the writing from the top is revealed. We all are trying to find what was written. The graphite is not important, it could be charcoal, it just reveals what is underneath. So all of astrology, religion, and other methods of explaining life, are just about people thinking about people. If it makes us happier, more loving, and empowered people, who cares whether it is or isn't part of someone else's reality. Even Abraham Maslow said in 'Toward a Psychology of Being' that the scientific method was not adequate to explain personal experience. But instead of invalidating experience he feels that we need to revise and expand the scientific method, not deny the existence of anything that doesn't fit. So, yeah, I believe in distance healing, astrology, and past lives, I allow for the possibility of alien abductions, but don't really believe in them as part of my reality. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: mousethief Date: 12 Oct 00 - 03:40 PM Peter: Yes. For one thing, Jesus (to use the most common Anglicized version of his name which was probably close to Yeshua or Yoshua) apparently had a far less self-serving lifestyle than Elvis. Nor has Elvis founded a religion that beyond all odds became the official religion of a huge empire (indeed, it's not at all clear that Elvis, nor any of his followers, founded a religion at all). And above all, to his eternal credit, Jesus never sang "In the Ghetto."
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Midchuck Date: 12 Oct 00 - 02:54 PM Why does it make more sense to believe that Jesu ben Joseph was a human incarnation of God than to believe that Elvis Presley was? (Leaving out as utterly irrelevant the fact that more people have believed the former for longer.) Peter. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Biskit Date: 12 Oct 00 - 02:08 PM All this longwindedlargewordedstuff,is really great for philosophy majors,....I want'a get back to lil' Neo's Bikini top!-Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Skeptic Date: 12 Oct 00 - 11:04 AM Grab, Exactly. And point made far betetr than I could (and did in another thread). Regards and Thanks John |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Grab Date: 12 Oct 00 - 10:22 AM Fib, carrying 3 isn't too bad, if they're small. I run out of carrying room after 5 or 6 though. My maths teacher once asked me to carry a thousand, and I strained myself. A sceptic (I'm sticking to the English version, and nuts to the rest of you! ;-) is someone who asks for convincing proof b4 they're prepared to believe something. If you give them incontrovertable proof and they still don't believe, they're not a sceptic, they're a believer in science, the same way that alternative folk may be believers in UFOs or astrology. And note that this is often "science as they were taught it" or "it stands to reason", not any version that accepts the universe is still full of stuff we don't know about. As John says, sometimes you need a better class of sceptic (brilliant line! :-) Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Skeptic Date: 12 Oct 00 - 09:18 AM Wolfgang, Thanks. John |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Oct 00 - 08:45 AM helping John's memory: 'Making Monsters', by Richard Ofshe and Ethan Waters. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Skeptic Date: 12 Oct 00 - 07:59 AM In keeping with the spirit of the thread, the solution to the waterski problem seems obvious. De-materialization. It avoids the need for messy mathematics or Gibralter sized revolving ddors. Amos, The body of evidence dealing with how memory works is extensive. Intersting stat is that 70% of the general public and over 50% of practionioners believe just that. It is very true that you can remember detailed minutae. I remember distinctly the wallpaper in my bedroom when I was 4.(verified by my mother) What I don't remember is more interesting. Was there a rug? What did anything else in the house look like? Current theory of how the brain works (sorry, its very mundane and based on the principal that brain and mind are the same thing). And it is a theory. Gets back to the preponderance of the evidence. The book "Making Monsters" covers this concisely. (sorry, don't remember the author). Ot would appear (and there are some pretty good experiments, that what we remember has less to do with what happened and more with what we want to believe happened. Tee "A" , "A Pime" arguement brings to mind the old dictum that extraordinary ideas should require extraordinary prrof. Hope I ma not misinterpreting what you're saying, but it sounds like the brain/mind arguement. (or spirit if you prefer). To move it from the realm of pure belief would require extraordinary proof. And that seems lacking. Though I'd be interested in citations demonstrating such. Ebbie, My point was that, if you accept the current models of how the brain and memory work, what you "remember" from 5 minutes ago in in serious doubt, let alone 15 years. Because you "know" it happened doesn't mean a lot to anyone other than you. And consider the implications of remote sensing. (somehow "remote smelling" sounded a little to silly). Soem form of undetectable energy, that seems to go against some of the basic "laws of nature" that (so far) work from the quantum to the marcocosmic level. And posit that the human brain can sense such an energy. And that it isn't detectable by any other means at our disposal. That inverse square, conservation of energy and so on are special cases, and (apparently) universal. As to your specific experience, the back door question is, Okay, 2 calls out of how many over 15 years. Did either of you make soem casual comment that would have lead you to guess something was cooking? What time of day? How do you get chocolate chip cookies out of waffles? (Please understand my culinary ability is limited to heating up things in the microwave. Or Pizza Hut delivery) And finally a skeptic who refuses to look at the unknown, discuss and consider the possibilites, isn't worthy of the name. You need to associate with a better class of skeptics. Regards John |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Oct 00 - 05:54 AM Sorry, I'm coming late to this thread and I'd like to revolve it back for a moment: Ebbie writes skeptics will often lay it to whatever turns them on- whether it's suggestibility, ignorance of 'science', hallucination, stupidity.. Ebbie, I'd be sad if you'd only remember the bits that sound offending from sceptics arguments. Imagine you cut a lemon in two halves, squeeze one half slightly and lick at the open side. What do you feel? I'm safe to bet you produce more saliva than in the seonds before the thought and even smell or taste that lemon. You smell it from your memory of how it smells and I can assure you that the very same neurons are involved in your head as in real smelling. My picture was enough to evoke these percepts without any real lemon being involved. Nothing unusual with that. And there's perception without awareness. It means that you have processed some information by your usual senses but this information has not entered your consciousness. Nevertheless this information may influence later actions by or feelings of you. Like if you hear a very slight change in the inflexion of the voice of a friend (or a different timing of the word flow) and you get a hunch that something has happened or will happen without ever knowing what the sensory origin of that hunch was. In my present opinion: Special ability? Yes. Supernatural ability? No. Just trying to show that not all sceptic explanations are offending. The original question of this thread is poorly worded: If you mean, Fmaj7, whether there is a higher probability for a believer in astrology also to believe in reincarnation and supernatural explanations of crop circles (compared to a person drawn randomly from the population) the unequivocal response from several surveys is: yes. If you mean as implied in your actual question whether all persons believing in astrology also believe in...the obvious answer is: no, as shown in many responses. People are very variable as individuals, but nevertheless there is a pattern if you average across many individuals. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Bill D Date: 11 Oct 00 - 03:56 PM (the preceeding is why I majored in Philosophy...them math courses wanted exact answers...not clever rhetoric) |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Bill D Date: 11 Oct 00 - 03:52 PM lessee.....half of 12 is 7, then you carry the square root...hmmmm...I give it 1023 chance...
(half of XII IS VII.....look... |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Ebbie Date: 11 Oct 00 - 12:03 PM Alternatively, I believe that Little Neo could balance herself on the water ski and Amos could rush at her from behind with the revolving door. Given that A. could reugulate his speed of closure, it sounds easier done. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:47 AM Hmm, getting the speedboat through the door required a bigger door, but yes, the "letting go" thing might work... Bonnie, the worry now is that you need to slow down enough to engage Amos' reflex bikini contact, and also so you don't hit the glass of the revolving door as they tend to move at a much slower speed. Is there a mathematician in the house???? |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Little Neophyte Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:14 AM I'm not that big you know. Getting me through the door should be a breeze. I don't mind sinking after that whole thing is over. My built in flotations will bring me back up to the surface. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:05 AM Huge improvement in this thread!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:40 AM That's where my reasoning fell down! I wasn't considering a large enough scale! (And I forgot to carry the 3.) |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Grab Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:36 AM Re waterskiing through revolving doors, have we finally found a trick they've not showed on James Bond?! There's certain practical problems here. A speedboat is fairly wide, so either Bonnie would have to ski close to the side where Amos was stood, or Amos would have to be hanging by his knees from the top of the doorframe and reach down. Alternatively, Bonny could drop the ski handle on one side of the door and skid through the door under momentum, although she'd sink shortly after the door. Of course, no-one specified the size of the door. If it was a revolving door 1/4 mile, there's no problems. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:53 AM Your math is probably OK Fib, but you keep getting hung up on "c" and forget to carry the 3. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:36 AM Perhaps this should fit in the maths thread. Given that "anything is possible, with the exception of waterskiing through a revolving door", we aim to use scientific method to calculate the actual probability of said occurence. It is presumed, for these purposes, that there is nothing strange in finding a revolving door in the middle of an expanse of water used for recreational sporting activities. Now, lets calculate: a) the speed of the revolving door b) the speed of the tow boat c) the fastening of Bonnie's bikini (clasp or knot?) d) the speed of Amos' reaction e) the prevalent atmospheric conditions (e.g. tide, windspeed, current etc.
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Little Neophyte Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:04 AM Amos, how did you know I was a D-positive? You must be clairoyant or something. Love Bonnie who would not want to see you lose your arm and not be able to play the beautiful music you create. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Amos Date: 11 Oct 00 - 01:01 AM Bonnie, much as I admire the insight you offer, imagine the consequences if you did such a thing, while I held the revolving door with one hand and tried (in the few milliseconds available) to intercept the back of your bikini top. In the next instant I would lose my arm as you slammed into the next panel of the revolving door (or your tow boat did) and your would transubstantiate from D-positive to C-negative. No, not your blood type, either! Love, Amos |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 10 Oct 00 - 11:31 PM I believe this thread could get more interesting real soon;-> Rich |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Bill D Date: 10 Oct 00 - 11:29 PM ooohhh...dangerous thread creep...*big grin* |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Little Neophyte Date: 10 Oct 00 - 11:00 PM That is because Amos wants to unsnap the back of my bikini top when I fly by. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Amos Date: 10 Oct 00 - 10:42 PM That's alright. I'm a gentleman and I will hold the revolving door for her while she skis through it....um....er.... A |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 10 Oct 00 - 10:23 PM OK, I believe that it's possible to waterski through a revolving door,and I believe that Allan C and Amos and Little Neo respectively could each ski through your own revolving doors but I dont' think Little Neo could follow Amos through the SAME revolving door. No way. Huh-huh. Rich |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Amos Date: 10 Oct 00 - 10:13 PM Anna: Personally I think you exercised an ability to broadcast an intention with great clarity, and the universe sorta fell in along with it. That's my opinion. But that sort of ability in most people I've seen tends to be sporadic, just as you describe, and can easily be self-suppressed if you feel it is going to cause harm. It's that native "goodness" in ya coming forard. (I think they had it coming, myself! :>)) Love, A |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Amos Date: 10 Oct 00 - 08:08 PM Sure, a lot of people are motivated to enforce unreality because they cannot stand reality. But there are probably as many who are more interested in expanding "reality" and find broader insights, than they are in just refuting it. A |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 10 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM First, let me identify myself so that what I say can be taken in context. I, too, am a skeptic (thank you for pointing out the spelling, WyoWoman.) (And a pedant too.) Take everything I say with that in mind. I don't say that all believers in astrology-cropcircles- UFOs-pyramids-crystals and what have you fit into this, but it is my observation that some people have an ABSOLUTE HUNGER for mystery, for marvels, for conspiracy theories, and so forth, and as such rush to embrace lines of thought (if such it may be called) that are strange just because they are strange, and latch onto them with an iron grip--not tentatively, not provisionally, but as home ground that must be defended. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: mousethief Date: 10 Oct 00 - 05:23 PM "Feeling Good" (the book) is a great thing. I still needed the meds and I still had to work through a ton of other things that were not related to faulty inner scripting (or whatever the term was), but it did help a great deal.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: SINSULL Date: 10 Oct 00 - 05:17 PM hesperis, The Feeling Good Handbook was a basic part of my initial therapy. I was assigned the task of reading it and doing the quizes for the first few sessions. Then my therapist asked "What do you think?" I told her I was stopping my therapy and going to see Dr. Burns. In every case study, he claims that after "One or two more sessions" his patient was well on his way to "normal". I on the other hand was still a mess after two months with my therapist. His list of pitfalls and explanation of how to identify and correct your misinterpretation of a situation is still my bible. His ego annoys the hell out of me. At times, I wanted to smack him. Be forewarned. Mary, grateful to the good doctor but able to see his "misinterpretations" too. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: mousethief Date: 10 Oct 00 - 04:03 PM I loved that song! It had a life before the Muppets, of course. We fogeys sang it as we drove through Menominee, Wisconsin. The young'uns hadn't never heard of it, of course! Menominee, beep beeeeee ba-deepy....
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: annamill Date: 10 Oct 00 - 04:00 PM Thank you, Nonny. That reminds me of that song on the muppets- meno-min-nah -dada da dada ;-) I'm feeling silly - I think the pressure is getting to me. L.A. |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: mousethief Date: 10 Oct 00 - 03:37 PM Alas I was right, I spelled it wrong.
Main Entry: nu·mi·nous
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: Bert Date: 10 Oct 00 - 03:35 PM Nah! I think you must be a witch *tee hee* |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: annamill Date: 10 Oct 00 - 03:32 PM Neo, they happened so long ago and so far apart, I have to credit them to coincidence... they just make me wonder...know what I mean.. ..numenous.. ?? Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: Alternative Beliefs - a pattern? From: mousethief Date: 10 Oct 00 - 03:26 PM Oh no, not me! No sir! I mean ma'am! Remember the rede: "an it harm none..." I'd hate to have my first numenous (sp?) experience be a painful one!
Alex |
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